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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Battlestar Galactica Season 2 US Thread (SPOILERS)

  
  

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plasti-scene
14:31 / 07.03.06
Just like to add a few things, I agree with mr. sleaze on the 'skin-job' models, partly. Yeah twelve colonies and why the twelve colonies? The models represent the Lords of Kobol, yeah the Gods. One could go a bit nuts and try and figure out who represents who, but since we only know 6 of them...and whatever, that would be reading in little too much. Why have we seen only six on them, ecspecially on Caprica, ... we always only see what the camera allows us to see... and that would take the thunder out of other episodes if we knew two or three more cylons existed and knew what they looked like.
1) we also don't know that all twelve are in operation and where they are (the others that are in the fleet could be lucy lawless look-alikes or six's with different hairdo's [like pegasus 6 who looks very little like Caprica six with glasses and no make-up])
2)we only assume that Cylon society (if there is such a thing, would resemble ours and really have no idea of there distribution across the planet(s)

Ok and we know that the chief isn't a Cylon, remember how he looked in 33, he's human. Only Boomer didn't look haggered and wasted, the chief was a wreck.

One last thing "AL", the preist, I kinda of the opinion that he's a cylon. I don't know exactly why but I have some ideas.
all the Cylons so far have been young. They also seem to be in equal distribution across the sex's, so why not ages as well, if that stands then we still see three older men and three older women, this would make sense. And I think it has something to do with the significance of the phrase "Because I'm a Cylon and I seen you at any of the meetings'.... Six said something simiilar about Doral in the miniseries ("I havent seen him at any of the Cylon parties). So that's my dime, though it could just me being overly suspicious of everyone right now because I think were do for another Cylon operative.
 
 
sleazenation
15:16 / 07.03.06
Of course, in the miniseries it turned out that Doral WAS a cylon...
 
 
plasti-scene
02:51 / 09.03.06
very true, but it's not the fact that this phrase it confirms or denies someone's Cylon-ness (as in it obviously didn't in Doral's case), but that I hardly think it an oversight that the phrase itself was used twice. I think that it must be significant, not a coincidence, and since by the way we've seen the chief look haggard as hell (33), we know that the significance isn't that he is a Cylon....
but anyway.... we'll see
 
 
sleazenation
08:15 / 09.03.06
Oh there are multiple references to previous episodes in lay yr burdens down...
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
02:51 / 11.03.06
well, well, well, that was an interesting season finale. wasn't really expecting it to go this way. the wait until October is going to be interminable.

now, it's either hats off to them for such an abrupt and bold move or it's sadness at their obvious move to write themselves out of a meandering hole in one fell swoop.
 
 
Planet B
04:37 / 11.03.06
Count me in the disappointed crowd. I'll probably no longer be interested in watching by October.

They usually wait an episode or two to completely drop something that seems crucially important at one point. But this time they even dropped story lines that started in the first half hour by their leap ahead. And haven't we seen this somewhere else recently (for those who also frequent the comic book forum)? I really liked the first hour but loathed the final act. I believe I actually was seething as I watched it.

Umm... all these people think it's okay to be totally defenseless within a year even after a nuclear explosion that takes out what looks like three ships? I'm not buying it. And what about the investigation of said disaster? Are we to believe there's no one in the fleet competent enough to put 1 and 1 together and realize Baltar gave the nuke away? And what are Adama and Laura doing in this 12 months, letting everything go to shit and not following up on the Baltar-Cylon connection?

I just think the idea of a real offer of a truce was so interesting, but it feels like everything afterwards made that pretty meaningless. So what was the point? Why ask a philosophically interesting question if you're not willing to explore it a bit?
 
 
plasti-scene
05:20 / 11.03.06
Hmmmm, well lets look at this development. "This has happened before, and will happen again." The humans, living on some planet, with most likely 12 models of what might be recreations of at least effigies of the Lords of Kobol. I think the twist is interesting.

as to planet B. Its amazing what people will convince themselves when they want to. And with an enabling leader like Baltar, it would probably be really easy to find some fertile ground to plant those kind of seeds. So I think that the idea of fighting at this point is mut. Plus any kind of "cylon conspiricy" that had to do with Baltar, will be really easily dismissed as just the x-president and her "buddies" in the military. Plus I'm not sure Adama really feels he has enough to go on to really go through another coup attempt, when Baltar clearly has the support of the populace and is concommitant with the promise of a real home on Caprica. Also, we can't forget that even though Adama and Roslyn are skeptical at first, they, somewhere deep inside want to believe that this is it and everyday that goes by without a cylon attack lets this hope grow abit more. I don't think anyone of these characters really wants to get back in the tin cans and fly around space somemore, unless they totaly have to (Cylons at their heels). Plus Adama and Roslyn know what the "Al" the Cylon said so this too ads to thier belief, plus I think that they might just be trying to get back to the process of living. (or pretending to).

Also they do have a defense system. Two Battlestars in orbit around the planet as well as Nebula sourounding them. A cloaking device as well firepower. Now I've never started a civilization befor, but I think that the basics are a bit difficult, and having those factors (aformentioned) probably would let one entertain the possibility of using whatever resources one had to work on the logistics for a new civilization.

Now what really got my curiousity going was what the chief was saying in his speach to the union crowd. What were they talking about? About the works of man (engines, machines etc... )being used for monsterous purposes. SOmething that the workers would have to protest and strike for...that was really interesting, and not put there just to kill time...

well regardless, I liked it... they (the writers) have done well thus far, so I'm gonna let them lead me wherethey will and see how they handle this. Tell ya the truth, we really needed a break from two years of flying around space just being chaced and "jumping just in the nic-o-time" I think the whole living under Cylon occupation thing is going to be a great plot-advancer, which allows for so many options and possibilities.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
08:01 / 11.03.06
I love this show. Ron Moore is my master now.

After listening to the podcast I learned the Chief's speech was almost entirely lifted from Mario Savio. And that Dean Stockwell (the versions of his character not tossed out the motherfuckin airlock) will return.

I thought the "one year later" thing worked very well, even before I heard the creators' rationalizations. I like when writer and director believes I (the generic viewer) have the imagination (or suspension of judgement) to fill in the answers I would have to the OMG! questions for the large and small changes to the characters. I loved the setting of New Caprica.

I CAN'T WAIT for October.

P.S. I'm so in love with Sharon (Grace Park) it hurts.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:16 / 12.03.06
Moore talks Season 3. Nothing too spoilery for people who have seen the finale. Just some general bits and bobs about how long arcs are going to last and some interesting discussion of the Cylons.
 
 
sleazenation
09:09 / 13.03.06
Disappointment and a failure to achieve its potential appears be becoming a hallmark of this show...

The whole Tyrol self-doubt plotline from last week is wrapped up with such undue haste and performed in such a ham-fisted fashion that I was are left wondering why they had bothered... Dean Stockwell's character could have been introduced in so many other ways...

And then we have the 'one year later' thing...
its a big, bold move that requires a lot of trust between the audience and the shows makers, and quite frankly, I don't think they've earned that...

This is a show that has routinely left pressing plot threads dangling (such as the disappearence of a Cylon into the fleet during resserection ship, a fact that doesn't seem to have concerned anyone overly...) The grand arcs are interesting, but the detailed work that sells the plots and characters as three dimensional human beings doing things rather than a collection of plot-points to hit isn't really there...

much of the boldness and audaciousness of the one year leap drains away when you realise that it enables a whole lot of character development to be once again swept under the carpet rather than where it should have been: on screen.

There will be flash backs in the next season, showing us 'key moments' that are supposed to justify changes in character and relationships, but organic growth will have been largely sidestepped yet again...

On the more posative front, it appears we have finally got different factions within the cylons including what appears to be some more secular cylons... this could be very interesting...

Oh, and there was one thing I didn't quite understand... The Cylons mention that it was the nuclear explosion that led them to the colonials- but that occured over a year before the cylons eventually turned up - what took them so long?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:21 / 13.03.06
They were a light-year away - it's not what took them so long, it's what took the light from the explosion so long to reach them.

And I haven't even seen the episode...
 
 
doglikesparky
14:59 / 13.03.06
I thought they mentioned something about detecting the radiation didn't they? Perhaps I'm imagining things...

There's always the possibility though that the Cylons knew full well where the colony was the whole time and were just biding their time. Certainly, the appearance of the Leoben cylon model asking after Starbuck suggests that he was there already, which follows that the Cylons were already on to them and the whole "noticed the nuke" story is just a cover.

If that's the case then we have to ask what took them so long to act and I'm wondering if maybe they've spent the last year dealing with some kind of civil war. That would explain why the sudden pull out from Caprica, why the cease fire against the humans and why they've left them alone all this time.
If that's the case, it would also suggest that the Caprica 6/Boomer faction of the cylons was the victor and are now running things - OR - they've turned up with some plan to bring the humans on board with them to help in said civil war.

I think this train of thought probably needs some more consideration, it's all very initial at the moment but I reckon there's a solid basis for a potential direction the show might take in there.

And I totally agree with you now, Sleaze about the Chief and the Dean Stockwell introduction. I thought the whole thing was looking fairly slick until they completely ignored it in this finale.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:12 / 13.03.06
Bad, bad, Leroy Brown, Fly. You gotta have patience and not get spoilerfied. It's so much better not to know.

I was impressed with the finale, actually, and I've given up on the fanwanky obsession with continuity and plot. Too much enjoyment of the broad-stroke ideas they're playing with... The way they cleverly switched Baltar and Roslin's dialectical political relationship so that suddenly, she was left holding the 'rational', nay-sayer card and Balter was advocating faith, hope, trust in the future.

Nevertheless, I can't resist having a go at my explanations for some of the plot decisions. So there's a nuclear explosion? Baltar has just taken power. Regime change always involves confusion and a power vacuum, even though this regime change is really just that, literally, and not some colonial invasion like Iraq. It would be quite easy for Baltar to stmy attempts at an investigation. And hey, given what Baltar has on Roslin at this point, it seems likely that she wouldn't bother pushing the point. "Oh, you're accusing me of collusion with the Cylons again? How bout that vote-stealing, hey?" Sometimes the tactical solution is to lie low and retain public dignity.

I thought the one-year-later characterisation, while a bit sketchy and totally hetero-couply, looked about right. The Chief is the resident prole: why, of course, he's grown a beard, is wearing spectacles, looks like an activist and is ripping off Kent State speeches! And, of course, Callie's standing loyally by his side (if a little less articulate, even verbal, than I'd prefer.) Baltar turns into a decadent Caesar. Roslin is back teaching and, by the way, keeping an eye on Baby Hybrid. Starbuck and Anders fucked themselves stupid for a year and forgot to eat, drink or wear warm clothing: no wonder he's sick.

I am interested to see what they do with the set-up now that the crew of the Galactica have been displaced from their automatic positions of power. Now the ex-Galactica settlers have to fight cleverly, guerilla-style, from within civil society instead of within the military. But what the fuck are they fighting? What do the cylons intend? Theories please.
 
 
Planet B
16:17 / 13.03.06
I'm over my initial hatred of OYL, but I still don't understand how all the shuttle pilots have all of a sudden taken to sleeping in tents on a rock with little vegetation. Within a year, there are almost no fighter pilots to speak of (okay a handful)... and the "best" pilot is too busy drinking and fucking to help protect the fleet/colony? I just don't buy that these people who survived anhillation and numerous attacks while fleeing over a good amount of time (9 mos -year???) would all of a sudden not worry overly much about protecting themselves. Too much shoddiness here for me. I've actually come to enjoy some of the new ideas, but I have no illusions that they will actually resolve any of them next season (or ever).
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
06:53 / 15.03.06
I have a moderate problem with the fact that Adama did not get to the bottom of the stolen nuke caper. At least 3 ships and who knows how many thousands of people go boom a nd he lets Baltar of all people sweep it under the octogonal rug. If a similar situation had occured with Roslin in charge... I dunno. I fear Moore may let the matter drop. I hope not.

But I think the skeleton crews on the battlestars make almost perfect sense. Baltar would have taken a big chunk of the military resources for the settlers in the first few months, and as the People got used to having no Cylons to worry about it would have become easier and easier to take what was left. Finally the Adamas get to the point where they can't afford the lightbulbs for their endless miles of hallways, let alone feed their massive crews. Of course some like Starbuck (presumably) and Tigh would not want to leave, but they enjoy respect and power and are used to living in spaceships anyway. The enlisted men and women, who had been fueling Vipers and replacing lightbulbs for the past year, might take the first chance to jump ship. Cally said in an earlier episode something like "I just signed up to pay for dental school."

The Cylon nation must have had some upheaval, but I don't think it was anything as dramatic as a civil "war." That's what humans sometimes do, but the Cylons could jack in to the Cylon internet and hash it out in a few clock cycles. The side that lost could have the toasters at their door within the hour for a civilized degaussing. This is sorta out there, but I imagine the Cylons were combing the uncharted parts of the galaxy for aliens to to subjugate, not unlike the Dominion from Deep Space 9.


As for season 3 I could stand to see more episodes about the Colonies other than old Caprica. Perhaps find some humans who were fighting on Pikon or whatever amd woke up one morning to see all the Cylons leave for no good reason.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
12:29 / 15.03.06
I have a moderate problem with the fact that Adama did not get to the bottom of the stolen nuke caper. At least 3 ships and who knows how many thousands of people go boom a nd he lets Baltar of all people sweep it under the octogonal rug. If a similar situation had occured with Roslin in charge... I dunno. I fear Moore may let the matter drop. I hope not.

This seems to be a pretty common complaint about the finale. But, in a year's time, how do you know that Adama didn't try really hard and was thwarted over and over again by Baltar? Baltar has fooled everyone since day one. It's not surprising that he could have got himself out of this situation with some quick pointing of fingers at the Cylon/Cylon-Peace faction.

The OYL thing definitely makes me think there are going to be lots of flashbacks to fill exposition. This could be covered by one of them.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
15:48 / 23.03.06
All this talk and no mention of Starbucks hair?

Is that a terrible wig or just a terrible haircut?

Old Adama has a mustache, young Adama is a little shaggy, time must have passed!

Overall I think the concept might work out. I am curious if the Cylon looking for Starbuck is part of some kind of Cylon underground, and was trying to contact her before the proper invasion started.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:27 / 26.03.06
Well, that was messy.

So, the thing that troubles me most is Callie and the Chief. I can just about buy her forgiving him for beating the living crap out of her, after all they were on Kobol at the start of series one and fought together and saved one another's lives several times, I find that OYL she's about to have his baby a bit odder, it reminds me how Ron Moore and the writing team had to be told that a woman abused and raped wasn't going to be about to jump into bed with the first man to show her some kindness.

I like that Roslyn tried to fix the election. It was clunky how the fraud was discovered.

Gina's use of the bomb. This was extremely weird. Seeing as the few times we've seen her post her killing of Caine it would have been nice to have some suggestion of this, it really came from nowhere. It seemed rather as if the writers suddenly needed to take the bomb plot out of play for the purposes of OYL. I predict that it won't be explained.

So Baltar sucks as a President and no-one is doing anything? It's all terribly polite 'we're going to strike'? There are two Battlestars in orbit. I know the start of series two had Adama accepting that the people had some say in how things worked and he couldn't just let them play politics and do his own thing, but he could be a bit more active politically.

I'm hoping series three will follow the Cylon Civil War angle, maybe this Gina and Sharon (where's Baby B by the way, not been in prison for a year I hope) are the heroes, maybe this is a branch of the Cylons out for a bit more than just harvesting the ovaries of the humans. I'm not holding out much hope though.

And writers, please stop trying this whole 'Starbuck and Apollo are meant to be together and are sulking when the other shags someone else' stuff. It's crap.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
17:51 / 26.03.06
(where's Baby B by the way, not been in prison for a year I hope)

Been meaning to make this observation, but I think that the fact that Helo is one of the only people left on Galactica with Adama points to Baby Boomer still being on Galactica. He would be trying to stay close to her no matter what.
 
 
jebni
00:18 / 27.03.06
I can just about buy her forgiving him for beating the living crap out of her, after all they were on Kobol at the start of series one and fought together and saved one another's lives several times, I find that OYL she's about to have his baby a bit odder, it reminds me how Ron Moore and the writing team had to be told that a woman abused and raped wasn't going to be about to jump into bed with the first man to show her some kindness.

Yeah, the latter is kind of eye-opening (my Gods, they weren't even going to show the aftermath of the attempted rape on Boomer), but the biggest difference here -- not that I necessarily "agree" with it as a counterweight to the trauma -- is that it's pretty clear that Callie has been pining after the Chief for the entire series.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:36 / 27.03.06
"It's all right Chief, I know you hit me because you love me."
 
 
jebni
04:11 / 28.03.06
Note the bit where I say "not that I necessarily agree with it".
 
 
jebni
05:33 / 28.03.06
Actually, I'm not sure if you're attributing that logic to me or the producers, Flowers, so to clarify: while I think the gender politics of the show (like most of its politics) are often deeply confused and deserving of suspicion, I thought that to have expressed surprise at Callie's pregnancy, you might have actually missed those previous hints of her Chief-love. (We're supposed to think that she shot Sharon because she loved the Chief, right? Or am I completely deluded about the way tone works in this show?)

Again, I don't necessarily endorse the implications of the way this narrative has been structured, but I do think the existence of that structure means that to me, being surprised about the direction of the Callie-Tyrol plot is... surprising. As far as the producers are concerned, this structure means that there is a deliberately plotted, fairly well signposted and "believable" background to the Callie-Tyrol baby-making, unlike their original plan for Gina and Baltar, which they simply thought needed no "extenuating" background -- instant bonking with someone who's endured months of torture and rape, because Baltar has been fantasising about someone who looks like them!
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
06:17 / 28.03.06
I read the 'because' behind that as being Gina saying goodbye to physical existence before nuking Cloud Nine- knowing full well she won't be ressurrected but willing to go ahead because afterwards there'll be a few less humans in the universe. It's what most people would do if they knew they were going to die. But yeah, considering her past aboard the Pegasus it is out of character and deeply implausible, even for a being that isn't really human.
 
 
sleazenation
07:31 / 28.03.06
Also, in resurrectioon ship Gina refused to kill herself on the grounds that suicide is a sin. What changed to make her think that suicide was both acceptable and desirable in Lay Your Burdens Down?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:03 / 28.03.06
Jebni, I'm sorry, I'm not having a go at you, definitely the show producers.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:17 / 28.03.06
I haven't seen the episode, so I have to ask, what is it in it that makes you think the audience is supposed to react to the development of the Cally/Tyrol relationship positively, as a healthy thing, Lady?
 
 
jebni
08:56 / 28.03.06
Phex, it's worse: we're talking about the fact that Ron Moore and co were originally going to have Gina and Baltar bonk pretty much immediately -- a notion that Tricia Helfer disabused them of fairly decisively.

Flyboy: you are not God's instrument. Resist Him. Or download it. Or something.
 
 
sleazenation
09:16 / 28.03.06
Cally is depicted OYL as actively supporting the chief at a trade union rally, standing by her man...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
10:44 / 28.03.06
Yeah, my reading was that Callie had been crushing on Tyrol pretty much all through Season Two.

I think it's not all that unlikely that Callie and Tyrol would end up together. Not saying it's great, or defending the producers for writing it.... But I think it's conceivable to read this as either a) Tyrol using the whole bashing episode as a wake-up call, both to his state of mind (pull it together, kid) and to how Callie feels about him and how he might feel about her; or (more fucked up, but more likely) b) Tyrol experiences his guilt as an obligation to love and protect her, and do what she wants. People respond to guilt in all kinds of whacky ways.

I somehow doubt that their relationship will stay static and cosy for long next season, though. No relationship on BSG does. With the exception of... Trying to think of exceptions here. So hopefully they'll have Callie realise her mistake. Which would coincide with the baby being born? Messy and confused and stupid, to be sure, but just as messy and confused as people I know.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:14 / 28.03.06
Cally is depicted OYL as actively supporting the chief at a trade union rally, standing by her man...

Was this intended as an answer to my question?
 
 
sleazenation
11:58 / 28.03.06
Flyboy - i am having difficulty describing the scene in question.

The cheif is at the podium at a union rally, pregnant cally at his side the crowd shout at the cheif cally jumps up and shouts back pointing fingers... from what I recall we don't actually hear anything but the scene appear to establish that they have developed what appears to be a consensual relationship - it could well be fucked up, but I have a hard time assessing to what sense since I'm still having a hard time justifying the cheif's brief episode as a gibbering madman.

The characterisation on this show never quite feels fleshed out and consistant to hold together as a believable whole...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:26 / 28.03.06
G for Gundetta what is it in it that makes you think the audience is supposed to react to the development of the Cally/Tyrol relationship positively, as a healthy thing, Lady?

I don't think I did did I? I'm saying it squicks me out, based on Gina in 'Resurrection Ship'. I've still got the podcasts for the last two episodes to listen to, maybe my opinion will change. I hope that next season they do some serious flashbackage, rather than saying 'this all happened, Bill Adama grew a moustache, let's move on'. I would love to know the circumstances under which Gaeta is now apparently Billy to President Baltar.

Mister Disco Tyrol using the whole bashing episode as a wake-up call, both to his state of mind (pull it together, kid) and to how Callie feels about him and how he might feel about her

Which leads me to another thing, while I can see Callie crushing on the chief, I don't see anything that says that Tyrrol sees Callie as anything other than just a work colleague. Which means that that whole relationship starts and developes in the period we pass over.

jebni We're supposed to think that she shot Sharon because she loved the Chief, right?

I don't get that at all. After all, it's an open secret amongst the crew that Tyrrol and Boomer were disobeying orders and shagging all the way through series one, even after direct orders not to. Callie shot Sharon because she shot Adama. Callie is referred to several times in several podcasts as 'Jack Ruby' for this act. I think that if she had shot Boomer for standing between her and the chief she would have made an attempt to attack Caprica Boomer when she got back and probably we'd have had some scene where she said to the chief "but I killed her for yooooooooooooou!"
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:10 / 28.03.06
Sleaze: Also, in resurrectioon ship Gina refused to kill herself on the grounds that suicide is a sin. What changed to make her think that suicide was both acceptable and desirable in Lay Your Burdens Down?

You see, suicide would be a sin, but suicide bombing to kill a bunch of your enemies is ok.

This is never actually stated in the show, but considering the lack of subtlety the show has shown when being topical to the war on terror I find it likely.

That or she had to detonate the bomb so the other cylons would detect a radiation wave.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:19 / 28.03.06
I think that if she had shot Boomer for standing between her and the chief she would have made an attempt to attack Caprica Boomer when she got back and probably we'd have had some scene where she said to the chief "but I killed her for yooooooooooooou!"

It's a really, really crazy idea, but perhaps the makers of this particular show believe that there are some viewers who can infer things about character's motivations without needing it spelled out for them? Like jebni, I didn't think this needed much in the way of reading between the lines.
 
  

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