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Pope John Paul II is now dead.

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Regrettable Juvenilia

18:58 / 03.04.05

Tsk! He hasn't gone to Heaven, Xoc. Did you never read Jack Chick's 'Why Is Mary Crying?'?

21:36 / 03.04.05

obviously, john paul II will be followed by pope george ringo, won't he??

what about an australian pope - pope bruce

or something a bit more in keeping with the new age... pope heavenly hirani tigerlily?

(though my money is on pious or leo)

21:49 / 03.04.05

what about an australian pope - pope bruce

Hmm. Pope Loomis. It's got a ring to it.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:28 / 03.04.05

Nina: I feel sad about the Pope's death, not because I particularly cared about him as a person or his position (though I think there is something admirable about sticking to your guns enough to become the bloody Pope) but because I always feel sad when a person dies of Parkinsons and blood poisoning and the after effects of a damaging operation, even if they're in their 80s. Pain just makes me upset even if I think the person suffering it is a fascist.

Totally.

I'm not the biggest fan, really, of either Catholicism or its head... he may have been progressive on some issues, but HORRIBLY BAD on others...

but the media coverage over the last week has been absolutely horrible. (And I'm a "strictly Radio 4" kind of guy.) Every half-hour, for the last fucking seven days, we've had a blow-by-blow description of what it's like to die, slowly and (presumably) painfully of old age and its attendant complications.

I'm sorry, but there are many other people in the world I actively hate, and... I'd have a hard time watching any of them go through that shit.

(Although there was a part of me that was thinking that if he held on much longer, sooner or later he'd be asking his aides to sort him out with an assisted suicide... "hey, I'm infallible, seriously man, let's change the rules, I'm the POPE! I'M IN AGONY!!! go on..." I guess I admire him for not doing that; it must have been fucking tempting. But that part of me also knows it's BAD. Very BAD. To find that funny.)

It's not like the office has been abolished. There'll be another Pope real soon. And, very probably, a much LESS progressive one.

But seriously. I'm not a religious man. But as far as I can tell, if there's any justice, pretty much all broadcast media people involved in this circus, on the showing of the last few days, are going to hell. And deservedly so.

The slow death of an old man is not a sideshow. Ever.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:30 / 03.04.05

ALTHOUGH I am now conflicted as to whether I should try for the new Dr Who, bassist for Guitar Wolf or Pope.

It's been a strange week. My lying CV reads like Finnegan's Wake.

23:26 / 03.04.05

I suppose I feel the same as I would if Harold Shipman were dying of Parkinson's Disease. Agreed, the slow death of an old man's never a nice thing, and I'd remind myself that, as well as being responsible for the deaths of many, he also did a lot of good.

*shrugs*

Shipman, however, has never (to my knowledge) described my relationship with Xoc as "intrinsically evil", so there's an obvious difference there...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:35 / 03.04.05

I think you misunderstand me.
I don't like this morbid measuring out of death because I CAN'T TAKE PLEASURE IN THE SUFFERING OF ANOTHER. I find it horrible. While I don't think anyone here would say that Hitler deserved to live a long and happy life, I wouldn't have wanted to watch him die either- though I'm glad he did (and Godwin be damned). I don't imagine a surgeon cuts out a cancer with a "yeah! FUCK YOU!!!"...
And, you know, is the next one likely NOT to come out with the same old bigoted shit? What with being the Pope and all?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:38 / 03.04.05

Ignore the first line of my previous post, Ganesh... I think I was reading things into your post that probably weren't there.

23:47 / 03.04.05

And, you know, is the next one likely NOT to come out with the same old bigoted shit? What with being the Pope and all?

I guess I'm finding all the 'well, he was the Pope' stuff a little much. John Paul II didn't have to take as hardline a "moral" stance as he did; he didn't have to go so far in rolling back the relatively liberal reforms of Vatican II; he didn't have to describe consenting adult same-sex relationships as "intrinsically evil" (while his institution actively shielded sexually-active paedophiles).

It's painful to die of the Parkinsonian complications of old age, but it's also painful to die young of AIDS because you believed condoms were "ineffective".

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:57 / 03.04.05

Well, no, he didn't... but then he didn't have to be Pope either.
You don't become head of as monolithic and oppressive an organisation as the Catholic Church to bring it down... you do it cos you're into it. And part of being "into it", in the case of the CC, is taking on board the bigotry and hatred that have long been two of its guiding forces.

(Note- I'm not dissing Christians of any persuasion here... just the institution of the Catholic Church. I also have unpleasant things to say about the Anglican Church, if balance is required.)

And it may even be good that some people die horribly. But just because something's good, or even right, doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:02 / 04.04.05

And don't forget... just because millions of people were told he was infallible by virtue of being Pope....
...they didn't have to believe it.

00:06 / 04.04.05

Well no, I'm not particularly surprised when bigots are bigoted. I am a little surprised that, when one of the most globally influential bigots ever finally pops his clogs, so many are apparently prepared to shrug and say, "yeah, well, that's what they're like, innit - give the guy a break, he was old". I guess I'm getting Reagan-vu...

I absolutely reserve the right to feel glad that the fucker's dead. And yes, we're doubtless assured of an even nastier bastard in his place, but that doesn't diminish my pleasure at this one's passing.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:06 / 04.04.05

It's painful to die of the Parkinsonian complications of old age, but it's also painful to die young of AIDS because you believed condoms were "ineffective".

Oh, and also totally in agreement (not that either's happened to me, but in principle)- but I'm not about to enjoy the painful death of anyone, no matter who they may be, of whatever cause. I dunno. Maybe I'm just squeamish.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:11 / 04.04.05

"yeah, well, that's what they're like, innit - give the guy a break, he was old"

I know that's not what I meant, anyway... I dunno, it's like even if I was in favour of the death penalty (which I'm not), I think I'd draw the line at watching someone tortured to death; even if it was just by nature.

Maybe that's why I'll never be Pope.

00:18 / 04.04.05

I've never really watched anyone "tortured to death" myself, either (although I have seen wealthy octuagenarians die at the end of a life of relative ease, which seems to be what we're talking about here). I'm taking a small degree of grim pleasure in the fact that, ding dong, the witch is dead; I did not, however, go out of my way to book ringside seats for her melting.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:23 / 04.04.05

Oh no, I know you didn't... but the media seemed to. THAT'S what I found objectionable.

(Okay, I think I need to leave this thread now... I have "very old relative about to die" things going on which, reading back over my last few posts, I think have made me a little more sensitive to the last few days' news reports than I'd realised.)

01:31 / 04.04.05

On speculations for the successor, I just watched some of the 60 minutes bit on that subject... from their report it would seem likely that the New Pope will be more conservative than JP, very "safe" politically, and also quite old so that he won't be around too long. Planned obsolescence in the papacy... it's a little bit of an odd idea, shows a certain lack of faith in its own supposedly divinely inspired hierarchy.

Tryphena Absent

07:39 / 04.04.05

I absolutely reserve the right to feel glad that the fucker's dead

I think there's a difference between being glad the Pope is dead and being glad that an old man is dead. The problem with the whole Pope thing is that it's a position that's about to be filled again so really the Pope and all the bile that's spouted about homosexuality and contraception isn't dead, it's just going to start again in 15 to 20 days time. The old man I know nothing about except that he held the position of Pope and probably died more horribly then the press are telling anyone. Basically I see little to be pleased about here- I'll be glad when the Pope really is dead, that likely won't happen in this life.

07:42 / 04.04.05

what about an australian pope - pope bruce

Hmm. Pope Loomis. It's got a ring to it.

Hehe. Well apparently any baptised male can be given the nod so I qualify. Although I was actually baptised Greek Orthodox but it's all the same innit? Maybe I can reunify the eastern and western churches. It's about time we had easter on the same day again, if only to stop my parents buying easter eggs from the bargain bin the day after western easter.

07:50 / 04.04.05

I must say that what bugs me is that all these Catholics were praying for him to live longer and are mourning for his death as if it's such a bad thing. Surely if you believe all the guff about being divinely chosen etc. then you believe that God has taken him to heaven because his job is done blah blah fishwafers. Isn't it rather unChristian to be unhappy about God's plan? For religious folk they really seem obsessed with clinging to this life rather than the next. Mind you that would tally with the seeming obsession that fundy Christians have with stopping abortion, euthenasia and contraception. They seem to hold this life as the pinnacle of existence which doesn't bespeak a great trust in God's plan.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

08:26 / 04.04.05

Grind that axe, girl!

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:29 / 04.04.05

Stoatie - surely what is sickening about the media coverage is the way our supposedly secular newspapers and broadcasting services have been falling over themselves to demonstrate their piety, and give their solemn approval to the continued idolisation of His Holiness the Pope of Rome? A ridiculous amount of screen time and column inches has been given over to apologists who have instructed us to sweep the child abuse cover-ups and the lies about contraception and the warnings of the dangers of feminism under the rug - and very little has been offered in the way of corrective, out of "respect" for the man Bono called "the funky pope" (further proof if any was needed that Bono is either brain-damaged or evil, or both).

Can we imagine so many newspapers and television stations in the UK treating the death of a hardline Muslim cleric in the same way?

08:31 / 04.04.05

whether I should try for the new Dr Who, bassist for Guitar Wolf or Pope.

Y'know, I can't say I've ever seen the Pope and Bass Wolf in the same room together... A bit suspicious, no?

Tryphena Absent

08:50 / 04.04.05

Can we imagine so many newspapers and television stations in the UK treating the death of a hardline Muslim cleric in the same way?

No. I'm not saying that it's right that the press is being so generous to the late Pope but I absolutely hate it when people point out that different religions are treated differently in different countries as if that has any meaning in and of itself. Because it doesn't and this is a major upheavel for an entire religion- even if the outcome will mean little- it means more than one cleric's death. This is about the control of Catholicism, all policy, every truth. Even if you don't get why anyone would be Catholic and have no respect for aspects of the religion you have to understand that it's being reported because some people feel it will really effect every part of their lives. That's surely the purpose of religion to an extent.

This country has a Catholic history and that effects the way the papers treat the story, on top of that the Pope was a Head of State as well as the head of an entire religion and it's being reported as such. This country is C of E so our coverage of the Pope's death isn't nearly as strong as the reporting in Italy or Poland, Portugal or Mexico. On the other hand most Iranians may not even know that the Pope is dead.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

10:37 / 04.04.05

Yeah, thanks Constantine!* You really sorted out the hullabaloo!

I don't get Catholicism either. Can you explain it, Nina, in a relatively brief fashion? It may help bring some perspective to the views being expressed.

*This is not the comics forum, nor a Film & TV thread...

Tryphena Absent

10:40 / 04.04.05

It's about crucifixion, blood and not having sex unlees you make babies and even then it's still a sin. There's not really a lot to get but if you don't then you're probably never going to.

Tryphena Absent

10:44 / 04.04.05

Sorry, I forgot being self absorbed about your inner pain. That's why the Polish love it so much. You've got to shake crucifixion, blood and sin up in a bucket with unhealthy self obsession with your own sins. It's like dusting doughnuts with sugar.

Have I ever mentioned that I really love Catholicism but in a kitsch way. A bit like Hello Kitty- it's my secret iconic shame.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

10:53 / 04.04.05

But is it, er, canon?

10:53 / 04.04.05

Do you have pencil cases with little cartoon popes on them?

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:00 / 04.04.05

I totally get an obsession with my own sins!

Tryphena Absent

11:30 / 04.04.05

Nonsense. You get obsessed with other people noticing the things that you think are sins. Which aren't by the way. Most sins are things you don't even identify as sins. Unless pop music has been declared a sin?

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:31 / 04.04.05

The Pope issued an edict declaring that pop was a sin unless it was made by his mate Bono.

Tryphena Absent

11:42 / 04.04.05

That's because he's so funky.

Ex

12:14 / 04.04.05

on top of that the Pope was a Head of State as well as the head of an entire religion and it's being reported as such.

I'm rather pissed off about that as well, though. Being a nominal state gets the Holy See into the UN and the WTO and other organisations, disproportionately - it doesn't meet the criteria that the UN demands other countries meet.
Although it doesn't get a UN vote, it does get to hang out there, eating the seafood buffet and participating in the debates.
And its state-hood - I think - is not a very ye olde historical fact. Official U.S. diplomatic recognition of the Holy See was only during the Reagan administration.

I have my fingers crossed for the next one, but the best anyone's suggested is that they be theologically conservative and socially progressive. I imagine that'll be as uneasy a blend as this Pope managed - hurrah for human rights and down with oppression, but screw feminism, and the whole social structure and economy of Africa can continue to be destroyed by AIDS.

12:41 / 04.04.05

Can't wait for Pope Idol to choose the next one.

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