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Pope John Paul II is now dead.

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18:02 / 02.04.05

Finally, he has passed on.

18:06 / 02.04.05

BTW, I am changing the abstract from predecesor to successor. I thought there might be some interest in discussing who will take the Papacy next.

18:16 / 02.04.05

Care almost as much about this as I do about Charles and Camilla. Not much.

Maybe the next one will let people make their own sinful decisions - on the slowing down of spreading disease and overpopulation - while he lives his own pampered life (note his, I doubt Il Papa will become a Mama any time soon).
Sad in the usual way, but an awful lot of people have died today without trumpets and headlines. You want humility? Someone claiming he didn't matter, that would be humble.

OK, I believe in the Beatitudes and almost nothing else in the Bible. I'll stop digging my own grave now.

18:23 / 02.04.05

This is a bit like asking who the next Dr Who's going to be - Either way, 'cometh the man, cometh the hour,' and, let's face it, the Catholic church wouldn't go too far wrong with Shane MacGowan in charge.

18:29 / 02.04.05

[de-"fake solemn mode"]
Eddie Izzard and I'm lighting candles all over the shop
[re-"fake solemn mode"]

18:35 / 02.04.05

Wu tang, motherfucker...

18:40 / 02.04.05

I agree with you Cubes, on the point that he lives in luxury and not in humble quarters doing selfless acts in anonymity. Just curious, but do you feel the same way about the Dalai Lama?

I would love to see a female pope, I have to admit.

Ohh, here are the bells signifying his death on TV. Tonight, I can't wait to see the Mount Royal Cross turn on it's purple lights. Am I morbid?

18:45 / 02.04.05

Just curious, but do you feel the same way about the Dalai Lama?

At least he smiles and seems to enjoy his life. I think Tibet is too far removed from my experience to really have any supportable opinion on him. Mind you, JPII did take a bullet and (allegedly) made the sign of the cross over his would-be assassin. Again, sad that a good man has died, but lots of good men and women died tonight.

PS. Don't burn any toast in Rome tonight. It'lll get confusing.

18:48 / 02.04.05

ok, for those of you not giving a shit - I get where you're coming from, and I'm not too keen on the papacy either, but the thing is this... the pope, whoever he is, has alot of power, and influences alot of people. so it makes sense to have a pope that's a cool guy and isn't going to go around supporting fascists and stuff (ala Pious XII). John Paul II was among the most humanistic popes we have ever had, if not the most.

I'm sure alot of you will point to his criticism of abortion and homosexuality, but there has never been a pope who has accepted either one as acceptable, so to criticise him for it is asinine.

The church has always been far behind leftist thought, and I'd say that maybe it's just not the right time for the pope to accept gays and abortion doctors as good catholics... but in terms of the liberalness of other popes, this one may have as well been Karl Marx.

So in conclusion - for a pope, he's a pretty kickin' dude, and I'm sad to see him go.

18:57 / 02.04.05

there has never been a pope who has accepted either one as acceptable, so to criticise him for it is asinine

Well, no, not really. It's quite... sinine. I don't see that I should be thankful that he wasn't more of a bastard than he could have been. He could have changed these things or done something; he didn't.

18:58 / 02.04.05

It may very well lead to an interesting, if slow, change. There's a large push by many of the cardinals for something different than John Paul's conservative history of keeping the power strictly within Vatican walls, a hope that power will be more even dispersed between bishops. He was such a heavily-involved micromanager from the beginning. Except when it came to the sex abuse scandals.

Who knows. The next pope might end up being a pope anchored in the modern world. Someone who might give more of a progressive spin to the Church and who might lift the ban on contraceptives, et al.

But I'm not holding by breath.

18:58 / 02.04.05

I'm sure alot of you will point to his criticism of abortion and homosexuality, but there has never been a pope who has accepted either one as acceptable, so to criticise him for it is asinine.

No, I'm ambivalent on the abortion stand (I disagree on the homosexual stand, but I would expect nohing less from a fundamentalist reading of the Bible - give me the Nylon/cotton incompatibility law and I might respect them) but I think he was utterly WRONG to stand by the bullshit on contraception, especially when so many people throughout the world are dying from HIV and AIDS because of it.
To criticise religion in general is not asinine. It may be futile, but it is a correct and heartfelt position.

19:03 / 02.04.05

It is funny that people here are mentioning how other people have died tonight, without any fanfare or media coverage. I find it interestig that there is this kind of critcism/comment when I don't usually see it in regards to let's say, dead comedians/disc jockeys/authors/etcetera.

Another point, (and certainly not to be too much of a Catholic sympathizer, but to be simply even-handed), did the other people that dies today/tonight impact so many in so many ways? Not that their lives were not worth anything, but it is no wonder that so many feel they wish to pay their respects to the Pope. He did actually effect much change in the world for good, even if you don't agree with his philosophies.

However, I am now expecting the dirt on the Pope JPII to come out now...like what he actually wore under his robe, or how the popemobile was endorsed by the ToS...or something...*sigh*

One can't really make a fair comparison.

19:13 / 02.04.05

Yeah, fair enough. Perhaps the fact that we have more connection to John Peel than religious leaders says a lot about the board. I'm listening to a Radio4 spesh about him and trying to find out what he did that might have been good or acceptable.
For the record, John Peel changed our lives, but JPII (despite what I'm sure he really hoped and believed) fucked up many millions of people we have or will never meet. I don't want to give him a kicking, but I really dislike organised religion. Especially when I hear GW Bush right now claiming he was a "champeen of freedom". Stay out of it, George, you've just reminded me that JP opposed you forcefully in your Iraq invasion.
OK, Radio4, thanks for giving me a good reason to mourn. It seems he was someone powerful that opposed the W.

19:26 / 02.04.05

See, he wasn't such a bad guy, Cube!

I just heard there is a nine day mourning period for the pope. Isn't three normal for us laypeople and heathens?

19:43 / 02.04.05

It's difficult to mourn though, Strix, when you know there'll be another clown along to rehearse the same old destructive material in the next five minutes.

And this is a guy, let's be honest, who throughout his time in office was vocally against the use of 'Durex' ( TM ) because in spite of the horrors this policy was obviously ( ie, you'd have to be an idiot, or, being charitable, high all the time or just plain evil, not to have noticed, ) inflicting on Africa, for example, but it's not limited to there, he was apparently more concerned with where the next generation of priests was coming from.

I'm not going to miss him, personally.

19:43 / 02.04.05

Isn't three normal for us laypeople and heathens?

That's cause John Paul's one, twice, three times a lady. I'm sad and I'm Lutheran.

20:01 / 02.04.05

Then again, Nookie Bear has said some terrible things in his time, and I still love him, so... I don't know what to think, really.

04:24 / 03.04.05

Montreal mourns the Pope's death with a big purple cross.

Lilly Nowhere Late

06:04 / 03.04.05

Do you think they'll bury him in the popemobile?
And then make a horror movie about it?

Does anyone think GOD has a problem with all these people idolizing and worshiping a mere man? I reckon HE does.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:58 / 03.04.05

Honestly, is there anyone/position in the world that couldn't be replaced by Shane McGowan?

TeN I'm sure alot of you will point to his criticism of abortion and homosexuality, but there has never been a pope who has accepted either one as acceptable, so to criticise him for it is asinine.

Shit, muggers mug people man, that's what they do, to arrest them and put them in jail for that, why, it's political correctness gone maaaaaaaaaad!

09:26 / 03.04.05

Does anyone think GOD has a problem with all these people idolizing and worshiping a mere man? I reckon HE does.

--Lilly(back to just Nowhere)

Have you ever thought about your soul - can it be saved?
Or perhaps you think that when you're dead you just stay in your grave
Is God just a thought within your head or is he a part of you?
Is Christ just a name that you read in a book when you were in school?

When you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool?
Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope - do you think he's a fool?
Well I have seen the truth, yes I've seen the light and I've changed my ways
And I'll be prepared when you're lonely and scared at the end of our days

Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say
If they knew you believe in God above?
They should realize before they criticize
that God is the only way to love

Is your mind so small that you have to fall
In with the pack wherever they run
Will you still sneer when death is near
And say they may as well worship the sun?

I think it was true it was people like you that crucified Christ
I think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced
Will you be so sure when your day is near, say you don't believe?
You had the chance but you turned it down, now you can't retrieve

Perhaps you'll think before you say that God is dead and gone
Open your eyes, just realize that he's the one
The only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate
Or will you still jeer at all you hear? Yes! I think it's too late.

-- Black Sabbath, "After Forever"

I'm embarrassed to be seen with you people sometimes. You all have had, like, a year to prepare for this, and this absurd nattering is the best you can do? When Ozzie, Sinead or Mel spout off in public like this, it's embarrassing. What makes you think you're any more qualified? How will you feel when Mel is gloating over the death of Larry Kramer?

Ha ha ha, goddayum, I am totally on the rag lately. Sorry, yo.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:48 / 03.04.05

but in terms of the liberalness of other popes, this one may have as well been Karl Marx.

But not necessarily of the church. JP2 spent his pontificate rolling back the liberal progress of Vatican 2 in a pretty committed fashion. He saw the Roman Catholic church as a necesary weapon against what he (understandably) saw as the greatest threat to human dignity and freedom - Communism. Stopping the "liberal drift" was a necessary part of that. On the plus side, his support for Lech Walesa helped to reform Poland and ultimately probably accelerated the collapse of Communism in Eastern Europe. On the down side, this meant that, in order to maintain the church as a strong and unified entity, the issue of priestly wrongdoing had to be concealed as far as possible, traditional stances on abortion and the ordination of women had to be maintained, and - perhaps most awfully - spreading lies about the usefulness of condoms in preventing HIV transmission in order to make a near-indefensible position more coherent.

10:14 / 03.04.05

Ken Macleod's blog pointed me towards this interesting article on the Pope's contradictions from der Spiegel.

Yes, I've prepared myself over the past year to care as little as I do. About as much as I care about Sabbath. Who's Mel?

10:18 / 03.04.05

Renowned blowhard, homophobe, anti-Semite, Catholic, Mel Gibson

10:43 / 03.04.05

Oh, him. I thought you'd got hold of my holiday snaps for a moment.

11:20 / 03.04.05

He lived a long life free from much of the strife his followers had to endure at his command, sitting atop a mountain of gold issuing edicts to the poorest in our world.

I'm sure I'm not adding anything to this thread, but I just had to let it out before I hear all the tactful platitudes on the news and start boiling with rage.

11:48 / 03.04.05

I wonder if the pope would have recieved this much coverage if he'd died mid-week in the middle of an election...

12:22 / 03.04.05

I like that purple cross.
Graffiti from somewhere:..... sudden prayers make god jump.........
Yes, sad that a good man has died- but he opted out of speaking on contraception, and he needn't have. I don't agree that it was necessary because of his greater concern for liberality in other areas of the RC church, or that any impact would have been made on his opposition to communism. I hope that his failure to speak didn't reflect his personal views, as then I would have to think he was as flawed as his church. The Roman Catholic church has, over the years, perpetuated patriarchal society- perhaps even initiated it- and driven a lot of people into hunger and poverty by its' attitude to sexuality.
Maybe his successor will have more mercy.

13:39 / 03.04.05

I'm sure I'm not adding anything to this thread, but I just had to let it out before I hear all the tactful platitudes on the news and start boiling with rage.

You and me both. It's particularly galling to read some of the apologist crap oozing from my fellow "intrinsically evil" homosexualists...

15:20 / 03.04.05

I'm not adding to this thread either, but I am just glad I don't have to hear any more about Terry freaking Shiavo.

15:34 / 03.04.05

Reporting from Warsaw...

...no purple crosses here, but every TV station (MTV included) is either showing non-stop pope specials or just blank screens with a 'in memory' message. There's vatican flags with black ribbons on every lamp post and it seems that the entire city's in mass right now. It makes the death seem like a lot more of a big deal that I would have thought if I were elsewhere...

Tryphena Absent

17:09 / 03.04.05

The only Catholic churches inb London that are filled every Sunday to overflowing (and I mean people crammed in to the doorways) are the Polish churches so it doesn't surprise me that the TV networks there are reporting the death so avidly.

I feel sad about the Pope's death, not because I particularly cared about him as a person or his position (though I think there is something admirable about sticking to your guns enough to become the bloody Pope) but because I always feel sad when a person dies of Parkinsons and blood poisoning and the after effects of a damaging operation, even if they're in their 80s. Pain just makes me upset even if I think the person suffering it is a fascist.

Knowing very little about Catholic lore I have no idea who will become the next Pope. I have no doubt it will be someone who has a lot of faith in Catholicism, both God and the structures of the church but frankly I doubt it will effect my life at all. At least Bono might not have met the Pope now.

17:57 / 03.04.05

So, what should the new Pope's name be?

1 vote for Popesaurus Rex

18:42 / 03.04.05

I want a Pope called Wanda this time.

The worst thing about the avalanche of platitudes is the sheer hypocrisy. Bush and B;lair and umpteen others lauding him as a spiritual leader who had enormous influence dee dah dee dah. So he opposed going to war in Iraq and you all just carried on anyway. Gah.

But I'm evil and disordered, so what do I know? Bye Pope. I hope St Peter's giving you a grilling over your lies about condoms.

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