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7 Soldiers: Shining Knight

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
22:45 / 04.09.05
LDones: Yes - I think one is Haycock's translation, one is Speke's, but I'm not sure about that at all. The action being described is three shiploads of men (Prydwen is Arthur's ship) entering Caer Sidi, and only seven leaving. Which has resonances with the fall of Camelot and Vigilante's muster, but does not entirely describe either, as in both cases only one escaped from Caer Sidi, at least as far as we know - I, Spyder and Justin (two if you count Vanguard)...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:01 / 05.09.05
As an aside, Haus, that's one aspect of 7 Soldiers that I'm really digging - picking up on the old plot twist that Crimson Avenger didn't want Wing to be a Soldier, even though he was always around. I like that Morrison has the Seven, but also Vanguard and Misty - who for all intents and purposes should be included. Even Teekl to a certain extent.

I like Vanguard; I really hope he survives this and is included if they extent this beyond the "mega-series" thing.
 
 
Aertho
00:18 / 05.09.05
Isn't a flying horse part of the Shining Knight schtick, though? Like Teekl the cat for Klarion, and the Newsboys for Guardian?

I definitely think both animals will stick around. The only expendible "sidekick" you mention is Misty, and we can all guess what'll happen there.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:49 / 05.09.05
Yeah, but as I recall, Winged Victory didn't speak, and GM's managed to give Vanguard a reasonably interesting personality (given that half the time he's not speaking English) - he feels more like a character all his own, rather than "part of the Shining Knight's schtick."
 
 
Aertho
01:57 / 05.09.05
Exactly. Which just adds to the fact that Vanguard will survive.

On the cool horse tip: I like how he's able to use contractions in his speech, cause Ystin can't.
 
 
A
03:05 / 05.09.05
Regarding Justin being portrayed as more feminine in the art for #4, I'd say it's likely that Bianchi hadn't gotten the script for #4 before drawing some of the earlier ones, and probably had no idea Justin would turn out to be female. But I could be wrong.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
03:47 / 05.09.05
Think so? I'm not sure I'd want to collaborate like that, but I suppose that would explain it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:45 / 05.09.05
I think it's pretty standard... although Morrison not _telling_ Bianchi that the big reveal would need to be credible is a bit of a killer.
 
 
the Fool
10:41 / 05.09.05
I think it works that she is protrayed as more masculine before the big reveal. We should fall for the illusion she was trying to create, that she was a young man so she could fight in the coming war. Its only when her true love tears the armour from her chest that the illusion fails. Really really good. My favourite issue of SS so far.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:58 / 05.09.05
Just to say: ACTIONROCK!!!
 
 
Billuccho!
18:17 / 07.09.05
Pulse interview on the Shining Knight.
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
22:24 / 07.09.05
The real revamp of the Shining Knight character begins in issue 4 and by the time Seven Soldiers 1 comes out, everyone will see where this has been headed all along. The all-new Shining Knight debuts at the climax of Seven Soldiers.
...hopefully if the book is a success we could see an ongoing which would have to feature the incredible meeting of the Golden Age Shining Knight and our teenage Sir Justin, his remote ancestor.


A Soldier Must Die! Will It Be The Shining Knight?

Apparently not.
 
 
LDones
23:05 / 07.09.05
I found this interesting, from the Pulse interview:

He's from a period before the corpus callosum developed and joined the two hemispheres of the human brain together, so he has an external conscience in the form of his horse. When Guilt assails him in issue 2, he experiences it as an actual monster from outside himself.

This hinges on the notion that lesser developed brains had to process complex thoughts/feelings as external forces, to make sense of them, to move them from the subconscious to the conscious mind - the idea taken to its extreme of monsters and gods being our crazy brains anthropomorphizing very difficult calculations. (ie., one of the explanations of what the Outer Church is/Archons are from the Invisibles)

Alan Moore explains the idea quite well in his annotations to From Hell (long excerpt ahead):


">One account in the Roman military logs tells how a column of troops had reached a river which they suspected was too fast and too deep for them to cross, even though the delay might add days to their march. At this point, the log records, the Great God Pan appeared, picked up one of the herald's trumpets, waded easily across the river and blew a fanfare upon reaching the opposite bank. Unsurprisingly, the soldiers took this to auger that they should cross the river, which they did in perfect safety and continued with heir march as planned.

>As Gull remarks here, medical researches seem to indicate that the corpus callosum - the strand of neural gristle that connects the twin lobes of our brain - has thickened and become more complex and efficient across the centuries. As a purely personal speculation, I would point out that in today's world, the act of crossing a busy road is similar to the problem afforded the Romans by the river. We judge, by looking and listening, how far away the approaching cars are, which way they are coming and how fast they are bearing down upon us. Somewhere in the depths of our subconscious an extremely complex calculation is performed at lightning speed, telling us how fast we need to walk in order to cross the road in safety. That message is then flashed from our unconscious right brain to our conscious left brain across the narrow causeway of gristle that connects the two.

>If we accept that in the past the connection between the two halves of the brain was less sophisticated, then presumably there would have been a different relationship between our conscious and unconscious minds. Perhaps the subconscious of the Roman soldiers was perfectly capable of making lightning calculations as to the river's depth and the speed of its current, but was unable to pass it to their conscious minds in the direct manner that modern brains employ. Could it be that the visions of gods or supernatural figures that populate our histories are projections, messages from an unconscious that was at the time unable to communicate in any other way?

>Car Jung has suggested that even such comparatively modern phenomena as UFOs may be projections of what he terms the mass unconscious."


That last bit's also rather in line with Garg Margensen's other work and experiences, I would think. At any rate, an interesting bit about how divine visions of deities and monstrosities might connect with your average day to day experiences.

Nice to occasionally see the more grounded roots of headtrip sci-fi ideas. I know that in some particularly bad moments of fever I've had hallucinations that later seemed to be metaphors for things that had been troubling me emotionally.
 
 
Billuccho!
23:45 / 07.09.05
I doubt any of the Soldiers will die until 7S #1.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
23:56 / 07.09.05
Would it be worth starting a 'A Soldier must die!' thread just yet for speculation, or are we going to wait for Bulleteer, Frankenstein (already dead surely?) and Mr. Miracle to show up?
As it stands so far:
Zatanna: Too much of a D.C staple, too important to Infinite Crisis.
Manhattan Guardian: Too much potential for an ongoing series, though he'd be my bet.
Shining Knight: Ongoing series already alluded to.
Bulleteer: Enormous assets worth developing
Klarion: A kid, more potential for an ongoing series or at least Teen Titans membership.
 
 
Eskay Uno
00:22 / 08.09.05
Mr. Miracle will die. Here's why...

1) DC have put a crappy artist on the title, as if to say "who cares about exciting people to his potential with an awesome artist."

2) There's already another Mr. Miracle out there, the original, and surely there can't be 2 running around. One of them is expendable.

3) He's on a "cross" on the cover to issue #1 - I smell a sacrifice...
 
 
Are Being Stolen By Bandits
00:26 / 08.09.05
I agree that the doomed Soldier probably won't be kicking the bucket until Seven Soldiers #1, but Morrison's talk of a potential Shining Knight ongoing series would rather rule out her being the casualty, unless the "death" turns out to be a massive cop-out.

My money's on Zatanna at the moment. Sure, she's a DC staple, but that makes her demise more likely to me - one of the tenets of Crisis seems to be the elimination of Magic from the DCU, which would leave Zatanna with bugger-all to do in the Post-Crisis Universe, and SS #1 does come out concurrently with the climax of the Crisis miniseries itself. I wouldn't be surprised if they play into each other at least a little bit (not directly, but the death of a notable DC supporting character would add to the sense of "Big Things Happening" which they seem to be going for with this).

Of course, I could be completely wrong.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
00:32 / 08.09.05
With GM as some kind of co-overlord of the DC universe, I'd have a hard time thinking Magic will be completely eliminated in the aftermath of Infinity Crisis.

Bulleteer seems the most expendable, and the most non-DC character to me for some reason. I can see her being problematic for an ongoing.

But so far...I think Manhattan Guardian has been setup as the "heart" of the 7S series, and therefore the most interesting and potent to kill off.
 
 
Juan_Arteaga
00:49 / 08.09.05
I know somebody who was at the panel where the DC guys said they were going to kill magic in the DCU. He said they were kidding; they also said they were going to kill nuclear fusion in Firestorm. Whoever wrote the article in The Pulse makes it sound like it is actually serious, but apparently it is a mistake.

Anyway, about who dies...

Mr Miracle is in a cross, but then again, he is always crucified on the weirdest devices on his covers. Besides, Jesus comes back to life in the third day.

Zatanna worries me, though. Did anyone catch that "Don't forget to tell her about the last rule of magic. The one where the magician has to vanish along with his trick. Leaving the audience and his beautiful assistants, to go on without him."

Of course, Ali-Ka-Zoom could have been talking just about himself, but... who knows.... Maybe that rule applies to all magicians sooner or later.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
01:18 / 08.09.05
I'll start a 'A soldier must die' thread to try and keep the individual soldiers' threads on target.
 
 
The Falcon
01:36 / 08.09.05
No, don't. Just bump the Seven Soldiers original thread. People are moaning that there're too many of these anyway, so it'd be nice to just keep it tight.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
01:47 / 08.09.05
Eeh... oops...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:22 / 08.09.05
Loved the emotional resonance of that final flashback to Justin being knighted. I don't know whether it represented beige, purple or magenta, but it was perfect storytelling.
 
 
The Falcon
22:34 / 08.09.05
Maroon.
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
06:32 / 09.09.05
Mine's a pint then, Duncan.

*ba-boom-tssh*
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:28 / 09.09.05
This hinges on the notion that lesser developed brains had to process complex thoughts/feelings as external forces, to make sense of them, to move them from the subconscious to the conscious mind - the idea taken to its extreme of monsters and gods being our crazy brains anthropomorphizing very difficult calculations. (ie., one of the explanations of what the Outer Church is/Archons are from the Invisibles)

Well, more developed minds, actually - that's the point about Justin - s/he's an optimal human, and does not have the limitations and deficiencies of modern humans.

Morrison's simplifying, either for himself or for his audience (who are, as we know, schizophrenic and thus unable to process metaphor) a process called dual motivation that crops up in particular in Homeric studies. The compelxity comes in the way that actually our ancient writers (and Justin hirself) actually experience emotions as internal and external simultaneously.
 
 
Mario
11:20 / 09.09.05
That's the Bicameral Mind thing, right? I read the book.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:47 / 09.09.05
Sort of - Julian Jaynes uses a subjective reading of Homer to back up his belief (as mentioned by LDoones quoting Moore above) that the corpus callosum allows the two hemispheres of the mind to coommunicate internally. This may or may not be bad neurology, but it's certainly dodgy Homeric studies.

Closer to the mark than his contention that Mycenean man had no subjctivity might be that Iliadic man did not recognise a precise distinction between his actions on the world and the actions of the divine. So, Athena restrains Achilles from killing Agamemnon, and at the same time Achilles' good sense keeps the sword in its scabbard. The actions are the same action. Achilles is an agent and also acted upon. Agamemnon has a madness (ate) placed in his head, and that is both the gods making him do somethign stupid and his own poor judgement. Justin clearly has subjectivity, but also experiences his subjectivity as things outside himself...
 
 
Aertho
12:44 / 09.09.05
but also experiences his subjectivity as things outside himself

That's optimal human behavior? Trying to follow. Wouldn't an optimal human have integrated both those perspectives and acknowledge both, similar your Achilles kill Agamemnon scenario? An optimal Achilles would know that Athena is his good sense and vice versa?
 
 
_Boboss
11:37 / 12.09.05
okay, sorry but just read it:

was that Kaliber justine was holding as galahad gave her the pummeling? i thought gloriana had hold of it? has it broken because, y'know, it's magic and would sooner break than hurt a knight of the round, even a pervy one? what's happened to it now then, still broken?

why does the cop say 'warn the don' in issue three? just to demonstrate that the don has cops on his side?

where have the scars on the don's face gone?

okay, now iffy art can be blamed for a bit of that. thing is, i LOVED the art on this issue - continuity errors or questions aren't enough to detract from the all-round goodness - the way galahad kind of pivots into the past to remember Tristan's passing, the way the perspectives are played with so you never really know how big the sheeda are. the way there is so much fighting that you want to go 'ACCCCKKKKKSSSSSHHHHHUUUUUUNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!' and get the air guitar out. real good fun.
 
 
Eskay Uno
12:02 / 12.09.05
Kaliber was taken by Gloriana in #3, as one of the 7 treasures she's collecting (the Cauldron being another). Given that she makes Justin(e) fight Galahad for her entertainment in #4, I think we can assume the sword being used is just some ordinary blade.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:59 / 12.09.05
There's a lot of good stuff in the Ong book "Orality and Literacy" about the effects of writing on the mind's ability to abstract, which I think has a bit in it about ancient peoples experiencing insight or revelation or strong emotion or something as coming from another person or thing inside or outside them, rather than being something inherent to themselves. If I remember correctly, the coming of the first outboard brains makes this much less common. I'll see if I can find the quotation next time I'm at home.
 
 
Aertho
13:02 / 12.09.05
first outboard brains

Wha?
 
 
FinderWolf
16:31 / 25.09.05
I noticed upon re-reading #4 that some Sheeda soliders in one scene are carrying around a few more green lanterns (first seen in issue 1); as we discussed earlier, not sure if there's supposed to be a correlation to the DCU Green Lantern.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:30 / 26.09.05
That's optimal human behavior? Trying to follow. Wouldn't an optimal human have integrated both those perspectives and acknowledge both, similar your Achilles kill Agamemnon scenario? An optimal Achilles would know that Athena is his good sense and vice versa?

Well, if optimal equates to comprehensible and sensible to thems of us who think that way, yes. Otherwise, not necessarily. It may well just be something that Morrison hasn't thought through, but Ystin and co,. are optimal humans - far superior to the standard weal of modern humanity. Ergo, if they don't have a corpus callosum/internalised consciousness, then optimal humanity does not have a corpus callosum/internalised consciousness. QED.

Also, of course, the gods do lots of things in Homer besides represent states of mind. It's a complex text, so if Achilles saw Athena and thought "Ah! That's my good sense, then," he would not be accurate and complete in his understanding - much as the mood 7 mind destroyer can be a side-effect of Ystin's travel through time, a Sheeda weapon, a hallucination, an externalised emotion...
 
  

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