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7 Soldiers: Shining Knight

 
  

Page: 12345(6)78

 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:12 / 31.08.05
Spoilers, obviously:













...



Chad: it follows that "Boy's Adventure" structure of having the girl disguised as a boy, off adventuring. The only flaw I could see with it was the way the flashback was handled, although naturally that had to fall later in the issue to put that last burst of emotion into the fight that just happened. It threw me for a loop, no doubt, but I liked it - although part of me would have preferred Ystin as a boy being in love with G, the story as it stands follows a myth pattern of its own and gets to be all meta with the rest of the story. I really wish this had come out before Zatanna #3, so that everything would have made sense at the time, but now it all flows a bit better.

The bit in the flashback about the seven score horses and riders being thrown down from the sky totally pushes me to think that it's all for naught if they don't make an Eighth out of Misty.
 
 
Mario
21:31 / 31.08.05
More notes:

Page 8: The little Sheeda speaks in an alphabet similar to runes. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't translate. For one thing, I know of no runic alphabet with an upside-down Y or more than two crossbars.

Page 10: "Pen Vincit" might mean "Don Vincenzo". "Y du fir sheeda" means "the dark man of the Sheeda"...a worthy title for "Nebulau". It sounds to me like Vanguard is warning him.

Page 14: Mo Colley? I suspect Guardian #4 will reveal who he is.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:40 / 31.08.05
Something makes me suspect that Mo Colley was the murdered Newsboy.

Does anyone think that Bianchi changed the way he drew Ystin after the reveal? Something about hir facial structure changed.

A question - will the time frames of the remaining three minis all start off right after #0 again, or will they fall after these batches of #4? Have they made reference to that anywhere, or is it a blank slate?
 
 
Aertho
21:44 / 31.08.05
I think 7S:Z#3 already revealed who Mo Colley was.

"There's nothing in that box but a big deep hole, where we dropped a poor, foolish boy once and you know why? Because he did something the rest of us decided was wrong."

All those years being scared... Kid Scarface certainly purged his guilt in his last stand. Another thought: ALL Soldiers are stuck listening to the Mood 7 Mind Destroyer. Old and new. Ystin sees hir Guilt, personifies it because it is foriegn to hir. The others struggle with Guilt, but render it invisible as well as intangible.
 
 
Mario
21:52 / 31.08.05
I agree with you about Mo. It fits all the facts.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
23:34 / 31.08.05
well, that was marvelous! i'm definitely quite happy with this resolution to the SK story. It definitely is strangely self-contained enough to kick off a whole new series. i love that it completely solved that entire Z#3 discussion we were having, and put in that Melmoth clue.

Quite interesting! bring on the next one!
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
23:48 / 31.08.05
Also was this the first Non-Klarion mention of Mr. Silencio? I can't remember if Kid Scarface had already mentioned him in an SK previous. Damn this story is just getting richer by the second.
 
 
LDones
02:09 / 01.09.05
Fun bit of revision that lends hope, like much of SK #4 - The Seven Unknown Men seem to get their own prophecies wrong:

From the end of SS #0:
Green word bubble: "Our soldiers are dead!"
Yellow Word Bubble: "And thrice enough to fill Great Arthur's ship, we went into it...
"Except seven none returned from Castle Revolving"

From the end of SK #4, unknown narrator:
"And three times the fullness of Great Arthur's ship we went into it.
"Save seven, none returned."

More optimistic word usage, plus comma intimating that the seven will triumph, or at least return from Castle Revolving.

Underlying themes on female repression in SK are nice and light-handed.

Beginning to wonder what the significance of the Sheeda spiders being fake/robotic is... Thinking of a toy connection, thinking of pinnochio again, children's toys and fairy tales.

SK was very sharp. Modern sci-fi Robert E. Howard as channeled through teenage girl manga.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
15:24 / 01.09.05
The Sheeda are speaking in what apears to be a type of Ogham. However, unlike traditional Ogham, the letters are positioned verticaly instead of horizontaly. And, the dialogue appears to make sense... or at least would if I could decode it properly. The letter substitutions I have on hand don't appear to entirely work.

&=character I have no substitution for

Here's the warning about Gorianna's Husband:

"&I&NRING&BUF&
OV&UR&HUBNABD&
AIJTREJ&"

There's obviously something going on there other than random characters ("Ov Ur Hubnabd") but I don't have time, right now, to finish translating it or figuring out what version alphabet key they used. Googling Ogham should provide many a link.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:40 / 01.09.05
More optimistic word usage

You realise that "save" just means "except for"?
 
 
Aertho
23:13 / 01.09.05
What was all the 'wedding in New York' stuff foreshadowing?

From Ganesh, two or three pages ago.

Melmoth + Gloriana
Ystin + Galahad
Jake + Carla
Zatanna + Gwydion
Hanna + Jorge

Is GM writing a sour love story?
 
 
Mario
23:43 / 01.09.05
The Y and upside-down Y are used to end and begin sentences.

Based on that, and this page: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ogham.htm

I have the first phrase being:

"I bring nez of ur husband, mistres"

And the later dialogue being:

"In hefen thar iz no beer"

and

"uuich iz uui uuedrinc it heer"

Apparently, the Sheeda have bad accents, and have been to Oktoberfest
 
 
Aertho
00:04 / 02.09.05
Boy Blue's horn
Nobdy's crown
Misty's die
Don Vincenzo's cauldron
Ystin's sword

2 more to go. Maybe.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:10 / 02.09.05
LDones - Re: Robotic spiders. I'm not sure the significance of them being robotic, although if you remember Misty's impassioned speech in Z#3 about how the fallen spider would never again move to the end of time and back again, it suggests some kind of sentience is there. Or she's just anthropomorphizing what amounts to her childhood toys.
 
 
LDones
00:22 / 02.09.05
Haus: Well aware of the same meaning in both versions of that passage, but it makes a difference using different words to say the same thing, I'm sure you know.

Saving something is more optimistic than making an exception for it. "Thrice enough to fill" seems less optimistic to me than "three times the fullness".

I may be a nut.
 
 
LDones
00:41 / 02.09.05
Papers:
Yeah, that's sort of what I was thinking on, the childhood fantasy thing, Don Vincenzo's lifelong dream to participate in mythology, etc... I don't think anything about the Sheeda is quite what it appears.

I keep thinking about the Terrible Time Tailor of Slaughter Swamp, and the time-sewing machine making stitches in time; these boogeymen and childhood admonishments given life.

Gloriana the repressed and villified female figure unleashed, Justin the young righteous kid getting in way over her head.

Like Submissionary Judah said, the Sheeda are Our Sins Finding Us out, the Harrowing and the end times the Sheeda usher in, as Don Vincenzo said, are "where we make our peace with who we are" (decisions we've made, illusions we hold, dreams we've had (loving Galahad, being a part of mythology)) "and go down fighing".

All these stories are about growing up, it isn't just Klarion - Klarion's just more direct with it. I think I see more of what Grant Morrison meant when he said 7S was partially an attempt to mature the DC universe into 'sentience', to try to work it through its adolescence.

It's interesting.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:00 / 02.09.05
Gloriana as the villified female figure -- in a way, the "importance" of the Harrowing might suggest that even though she's "our" (wicked) stepmother, and maybe she kind of hates us (hence sending Misty out into the wilderness to be killed), she's trying to do something necessary, something like tough love; only twisted around to make it a nightmare fairytale murder scenario. Does that make any sense? Part of growing up is seeing that our parents are fallible, but also seeing that when they go against us, they're sometimes doing it for our own good (or what they think is our own good).

Gloriana's layered, she's the wicked stepmother who doesn't like the baggage she's inherited through marriage, and has tried to do away with that -- sending Misty away -- but also, maybe, trying to be a "mother" based on what she thinks that means. She's the woman who didn't want to be a mother, but is now stuck with it?

I think that reading gives her a lot of credit, but it seems to be there if you want to take into account the "growing up" phase. She's the Bad Mother, even if she has a clear mission she feels is necessary.
 
 
Aertho
01:17 / 02.09.05
All these stories are about growing up, it isn't just Klarion

I was thinking about this earlier. Ystin goes through stages. One might easily think stages of female achetype development. Babe, Maiden, Matron, Crone... but I was thinking more... profound. And it ain't just Ystin. So far all of them follow the pattern.

Pestilence: Attack of the Foreign Ideas
Ystin is attacked by swarms of the Sheeda, dives into Castle Revolving, you don't know what Castle Revolving is! This isn't Avalon.

War: Memetic Conflagration
Fight the cops. Surviving the streets of LA means doing some dirty things. Defeating Guilt by confronting it with faith.

Famine: The Decimated Sense of Self
Surrenders sword and self to the Knights of LA. Subject to questioning by Helligan and Friday. Ystin captured by the Sheeda. Reveal Galahad morally destroyed.

Death: Transformation
Ystin is a GIRL. And... Red am I in battle. Red the ravens that follow at my heels. Gloriana. I am your death.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
01:19 / 02.09.05
Kinda puts a new emphasis on the whole Billy Beezer sequence.
 
 
A
08:17 / 02.09.05
I was quite taken aback by that scene where...

SPIZZOILER!!!

...Justine takes Galahad's head off at the mouth. I may have even elicited a Keanu-style "Whoah".

If Melmoth is Gloriana's husband, and Gloriana is the wicked fairytale queen, then could Melmoth be seen as representing the weak-willed husband from Hansel and Gretel who leads his kids into the forest to rot? Hmmm, probably not. What other husband figures from fairytales are there? I'm a bit to decaffeinated to think of any at the moment.
 
 
Mario
11:16 / 02.09.05
I need to think this through a little more...but what evidence do we have that the Sheeda are actually magical? Is it possible that they are actually highly advanced beings from the future/another continuum, and their magic is simply Clarke's Law in action?
 
 
Ganesh
16:55 / 02.09.05
What other husband figures from fairytales are there?

I've been wondering about this. Other than Oberon, we're looking at absent (or at least, absent-minded) fathers or ineffectual consorts. Melmoth struck me as more of a Child Catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang type.

Actually, Oberon might fit the frame slightly, in that the events of A Midsummer Night's Dream are in part precipitated by Titania's refusal to gift him her young pageboy; he seems more interested in boychildren than his Fairy Queen...
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
17:06 / 02.09.05
Having just read SK 4, it appears that Vanguard has been killed in the Sheeda attack, and is lying behind Don Vincenzo in a pool of blood just before he dies; yet in Zatanna 3, Vanguard is alive and has been captured by the Sheeda. Another artistic difference, along with Bianchi's topless Don and Sook's hoodied Don?
 
 
Quimper
17:09 / 02.09.05
Anyone else notice the symbols floating around the beam the Sheeda use against Don Vincenzo's door before he comes flying out with Vanguard?...sigils of some kind? *very* reminiscent of Boy Blue's horn. Same symbols I think. My comics are in another part of the country at the moment. Anyone have any insight?

Also, Melmoth is Gloriana's husband, Misty is her stepdaughter. Dare we do the math?
 
 
Ganesh
17:26 / 02.09.05
'Course, Gloriana could've had a fair few husbands in her time...
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:27 / 02.09.05
If we're to assume that Melmoth is the "husband" who's absence allowed Gloriana to become queen of the Sheeda and play out the step mother role to misty, would that make Mr. Melmoth the rightful "king" of the Sheeda? If so I'm curious as to why he would've left the kingdom; something to do with pillaging other cultures? finding Limbo town? or perhaps a powersource in limbo town?

Might Crotoa have been the rightful King of the Sheeda who was imprisoned after an encounter with colonial america? In his absence Gloriana might have married melmoth? There seems to be hamlet typ of undercurrent in that supposition. Perhaps Malmoth arranged Crotoa's imprisonment amidst the encounter with the colonists.

I'm leaning towards Crotoa being Misty's absent father. The more I think about it, Crotoa's greatest character trait IS his absence. Somewhat suitable for an absent father in the Snow White context.
 
 
Tom Coates
21:44 / 03.09.05
Just wanted to add my 'whoah' of awesomeness to the Justin is female concept. Bloody great idea - precedent in the literature, right in front of us all the time, subtly changes all the relationships up until that point, recontextualises stuff. Fascinating.
 
 
Aertho
03:45 / 04.09.05
Not fully aware.

What the literary precedent for Sir Justin the girl? Is there folklore about it? Besides the obvious Mulan-type legend?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
03:57 / 04.09.05
Joan of Arc (not strictly mythological, but certainly mythologised) immediately springs to mind as an example of a woman who changed her gender to become a knight and fight an evil power. In Justin/Justine's case the Sheeda, in Joan's case, um, the country I live in.
 
 
The Falcon
04:17 / 04.09.05
Jeanne d'Arc (AKA the Maid, from 49ers) is definitely the most obvious precedent. It's a great trick of Grant's, to offer reappraisals of previous issues through twists; thinking 'Best Man Fall', and the Magneto revelation. This is a tasty variation.

On the non-fairy tale front, superheroes are almost always parentless too, often with surrogates (May and Ben, Jonathan and Martha, Alfred) - as, I think, Carla's ma'n'da are to Jake in Guardian, and Klarion's cycle of Ezekiel/Badde/Melmoth.
 
 
Ganesh
08:42 / 04.09.05
Also, historically, there's all those women who adopted male personas to become sailors. One of the explanations given is that they wanted to 'follow their sweethearts' to sea, something I've never been terribly convinced about. Works here, though.
 
 
Tom Coates
10:38 / 04.09.05
Yeah, sorry - I wasn't so much talking about Justin himself, as I was about the idea of a woman strapping down her breasts to operate in society as a man.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:15 / 04.09.05
Haus: Well aware of the same meaning in both versions of that passage, but it makes a difference using different words to say the same thing, I'm sure you know.

Saving something is more optimistic than making an exception for it. "Thrice enough to fill" seems less optimistic to me than "three times the fullness".

I may be a nut.


I don't think a nut, just overdoing it. It's two different translations of Preiddu Annwn. I don't think that "save seven" is more optimistic when it still expresses that all but seven died.
 
 
LDones
16:42 / 04.09.05
Haus:
It was a short while later that I realized where the difference in our interpretations was. I'd attempted to add to the old post to no success.

I'd taken the phrase "Seven None" out of "save seven none returned" to be something akin to "Seven Score" - since an attempted group of seven had headed in and none were getting out, by the look of it. The later rewording in Shining Knight ("Except seven, none returned") makes this interpretation impossible, due to the previously mentioned comma.

I wasn't aware it was quoting a translation, and thus my strange reading of it was made possible. Though I don't think I'm the only one who took it that way from SS#0.
 
 
Aertho
22:20 / 04.09.05
Tom: I was sure you meant that Justin, the character, or some other knight in ancient British literature was transgendered, or purposefully disguised. If it was a play on Mulan/Joan of Arc/Langobard/John Grey of 1602, then cool, I'm with you.

Papers:
Now that I've time, I can explain that whole magical gender stuff I was on about from last page of this thread. As you can see in most of my posts, I tend to relate what I read in Grant's 7S series to learning development and social philosophies. The man references this stuff, and build analogs accordingly –if you look for the patterns. We've established that each of the Soldiers are "growing up" in some way, and I've suggested that each book corresponds to a transition in Clare Graves's theory of Spiral Dynamics.

For instance, Zatanna goes from Red to Blue. Zee's Red behavior is evidenced by her celebrity superstar status, her spellaholic pityfest, and her own "practical" tome of magic that Misty has purchased. She then transitions to Blue by her search for her father's books of magic, and responsible tutelage of Misty, teaching her the old basics of magic, and acknowledging the authority of Ali Ka-Zoom, even after his death.

Similarly, Klarion is leaving authoritarian Blue for opportunist Orange. He leaves a world of definitive tomes and books, full of rules and order (Blue) to explore and experience the world for his own material senses and mortal desires (Orange).

Ystin is the first book, and as such, transitions from level one:Beige, to level two:Purple. Beige is all about self-survival, meeting one's own needs in order to make immediate ends meet. Evidenced most clearly by hir escape from the police and then the lonely living as a bum on the streets of Hollywood/LA, eating from garbage and hearing voices. Ze then defeats level one and accepting level two by acknowledging a mystical sense of truth, order, and justice, and by accepting the help of the "knights of this age". By Ystin's story's end, ze has left behind survival to actually become the manifestation of hir mystical sense of truth, order, and justice. "I am your death..." This is mirrored in many ways by the immortally surviving Don Vincenzo choosing to go down fighting. "This is mutherfucking mythology calling."

What I wondered about, and needed to further explain myself, is that mystic Purple is tribal, us versus them in a very familial sense. Purple antagonism is fueled by blood grudges; see: Hatfeild and McCoy. If the Avalon versus Sheeda is to be taken that way, that means gender roles in the Avalon culture are in some ways tribal as well: mystical and somewhat ritual. Ystin's role as the page/schoolboy might serve that purpose satisfactorily. I was bubbling with ideas at the time, and needed to let them cool with further reading. So no more problems.

And yes, earlier issues of 7S:SK protrayed Ystin with a very masculine musculature. In an androgynous body shape, ze'd have less defined arms and shoulders. Purposeful, and not worth the time to analyze, I know. Faceshots though, very feminine.
 
  

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