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White boy. Can't dance. Please help.

  
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
15:18 / 23.02.05
If we want to get down to brass tacks, the whole idea that a "white boy" is somehow naturally more in need of dance steps than anyone is essentially unhelpful - are white people somehow 'inherently' less good at dancing than anyone else? It doesn't do anyone any favours to let this kind of assumption go unchallenged, and inevitably the situation is only compounded (if white people can't dance, they should watch film footage of someone non-white who can...).

Olulabelle, I've not been flinging accusations of racism anywhere in this thread, indeed I have learnt that places such as Barbelith are inhabited by some people who are so sensitive and defensive about attitudes to race ever being discussed, that it is best never to use the word.
 
 
Sekhmet
17:20 / 23.02.05
Charrelz - You can totally drop E's at The Church, just be careful on the stairs.

Mrowr!
 
 
Triplets
17:46 / 23.02.05
In general, I think the following is true: you're not as shit a dancer as you think you are. By contrast, you're not as good a dancer as you think you are, either (homeboy).

Each depending on how [positive/negative value] you see yourself at dancing in the first place.

And Chad; you may not be a droid programmed in 3,000,000 types of dances BUT there's always going to be another guy (or guys) who dance far worse. Just have the DJ spotlight them (Hey, it's, uh, That Guy's 23rd!)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:56 / 23.02.05
Or.... if you really don't want to dance, go on one of the bondage nights and get her to tie you down.

Thus avoiding the whole messy question of who white boyz are and whether they can dance.
 
 
grant
17:57 / 23.02.05
Charrelz: Perhaps I should just lean back(repeat)?

I'm pretty sure that's called "the strut."

My strategy: alternate between doing the twist (you can twist, can't you?), doing the pogo (I know you can jump straight up and down), and ripping off Charlie Brown and Jonathan Richman (swaying like a spastic tree either side to side or back and forth).

The important thing: strategy will last approximately 1 minute, 30 seconds or else something isn't right. All it's there for is to kick start the engine.
 
 
charrellz
18:15 / 23.02.05
charrell, you can definitely take ecstasy at that club by the looks of things, so perhaps you should (if this is amenable morally etc.)?
Sadly, not an option. She's the rather clean type (a nice change from my last girlfriend *cough*cokewhore*cough*), and I've never been too keen on 'the e' myself.

Or.... if you really don't want to dance, go on one of the bondage nights and get her to tie you down.
Could work, but she would prefer it the other way around, so then I'd just have to dance with a hog-tied girlfriend, and that seems even more complicated.


Oh and the thread title. A) I believed it to be a common amusing stereotype that white boys (gothy ones especially) tend to be lacking in the rhythm and grace department. B) My brother's roommate (a black female [and please no one start anything about what terminology should be used. Please. She says black, so she's black.]) will occasionally come in late at night yelling "GODDAMN WHITE BOYS CAN'T DANCE!"
I would like to think of this thread as a tribute to her.
 
 
---
18:23 / 23.02.05
Turn to the left, shuffle, turn to the right, shuffle, big-box-small-box-big-box-small-box, shuffle, spin, kick out your feet, turn to the right, turn to the left, big deep breath aaaaaaaaand shuffleshuffleshuffleshufflebig-box-
small-box-big-box-small-box-big-box-small-box-big-box-
small-boxRUNAWAYQUICKLY.
 
 
lekvar
19:00 / 23.02.05
The good news: As a "semi-reformed goth/metalhead" you'll be in your element, and the lights are usually low at goth/industrial clubs. The goths will all be pulling spiderwebs form the dark corners of the room, and the rivetheads will be stomping about. You can go to either extreme of hover between with perfect ease. Your girlfriend will indicate how she wants to dance if you have even the slightest amount of perception

The bad news: Goths can be (but aren't necessarily) the most judgmental of subcultures. But really, who cares what they think?

On a side note: Gypsy, I understand what you're saying about dancing, but I'm under the impression that free-form dance is a relatively new phenomenon, only about 50 years old. My (possibly mistaken) understanding is that in most settings and cultures Dance is highly formalized, with specific moves and dances relegated to specific occasions and rituals. Dance should be joyous, but there are also forms which may or may not be appropriate. No slam pit at a rave, no pogoing at the swing club. Yeah, these examples are over the top, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:29 / 23.02.05
I'm not sure ( though I could be wrong, ) that DJ's Virus and Angry John are going to be exactly, y'know, 'bringing the funk' to the club though anyway, Charrellz. And Goths, while tending at times to be a bit judgemental, are never really going to be people who shame you on the dancefloor, what with the trenchcoats, the boots and all that caked-on make-up, none of which are all that conducive to 'cutting a rug.'

Just hop around a bit smiling ( but not smiling too much obviously ) and you should be fine.
 
 
Chiropteran
19:39 / 23.02.05
With all respect, Alex, and speaking as a goth: boots and caked-on makeup are not only conducive but essential to cutting a rug. Trenchcoats optional.

~L
 
 
The Falcon
20:41 / 23.02.05
"The poor are the best dancers in the world."

I think that's probably true. Don't you?

This thread is like an unmagic box, in that you could almost precisely predict what would be inside.

Flyboy, I don't think you're that often found discussing attitudes to race (the opening to the Speakerboxx thread perhaps being one exception) so much as asserting racism on other people's behalf. Which is not to say you're wrong for the most part, just that it's not terribly helpful.
 
 
subcultureofone
21:15 / 23.02.05
i must second olulabelle's advice to 'dance like no one is watching'. while you're at it, you may as well love like you've never been hurt and work like you don't need the money. it's certainly better than the alternative* which is why so many have warned you away from the lipbite/constipated scowl look. if that fails, try the how to dance gothic website


*dance like it hurts, love like you need the money, work when people are watching.
 
 
■
21:47 / 23.02.05
just feel the music
Very easy to say, but if you don't know how, very hard to do. I would suspect C has no concept of how rhythm relates to his body - us blokes generally don't, trust me, we have to think about it before we can free it - and needs a few pointers to feel confident in what is socially a very competetive environment. Flailing is bad in a confined space, and stomping gives off bad signals to people you're with. It is often better to sit it out than join in a complex social milieu the rules of which no-one has laid out. Dancing per se may be individualistic and accomplished without too much bother at home or in secluded heathlands, but as soon as someone else is potentially watching it gets very different. Yes, it doesn't matter too much what you do, but in order to dance (and not flail) it's good to try and aim to learn a vague sense of how musical rhythm relates to body movement - which is why I offered the "hips not feet" post earlier as it makes the process of freeing your ass comprehensible and functional.

And no, the "fat black guy dancing" tips weren't racist, but Fly was probably right to call us on accepting them just in case we were.
 
 
matsya
22:23 / 23.02.05
My new advice is for you to watch how one-legged lesbian palestinian women dance, and copy them.

m.
 
 
■
23:19 / 23.02.05
That's just soooo bidexter zionist patriarchal. Even if it was supposed to be ironic.
 
 
matsya
03:04 / 24.02.05
My new, NEW advice is for you to watch Footloose and do what Kevin Bacon does.

m.
 
 
grant
04:06 / 24.02.05
Read the Bible?
 
 
Spaniel
06:02 / 24.02.05
My brother's roommate (a black female) will occasionally come in late at night yelling "GODDAMN WHITE BOYS CAN'T DANCE!"

Well that's alright then.

Look, Fly hasn't accused anyone of racism, rather he's pointed out that some rather unfortunate stereotypes are being perpetuated in this thread. These stereotypes are often found in racist discourse and, by using them, we run the risk of reinforcing racist ideology.

Personally, I think it's important to point this kind of shit out, although I am sorry to have to be so borecore. This is a thread about dancing, afterall.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:22 / 24.02.05
S'funny. As far as 'those people can dance' cliches go, I was thinking about fat, older, Argentinian men - a milonguero stereotype, perhaps. But no one's mentioned the other possibilities - big, older women of whatever race; tiny, perfectly dressed heterofops between eight and nine hundred years of age; suddenly-elegant type II nerds; manic South-East Asian slackers; cloth-capped working men from Bolton who reveal their Jive and Waltz skills at weddings and wakes... it goes on.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:07 / 24.02.05
I'm under the impression that free-form dance is a relatively new phenomenon, only about 50 years old.

For fuck's sake, it's just dancing! People have been dancing naturally to music since the birth of the species, surely? You don't have to learn any arcane rituals, you just have to dance and not fucking think about it and analyse it so much or worry what anyone else is doing or thinking. Unless you grasp this concept your dancing will always be self-conscious, contrived and shit. No matter the venue, type of music, social parameters or geographical location, dancing is the same activity and requires the same openness of approach and lightness of spirit. Dancing has to be an honest response to music, not a laborious navigation by your inner critic of half-imagined, poorly understood social rules. What is so difficult to grasp about this concept? If you are dancing naturally and enjoying yourself while your are doing it, that is what counts and that is what it is about. End of story. I really can't comprehend why you might think dancing is about anything else?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
08:16 / 24.02.05
I take exception to the thread title as a white boy who can dance. Can't jump too good though.
 
 
Spaniel
09:15 / 24.02.05
But you are good at shot-put.

I really can't comprehend why you might think dancing is about anything else?

I understand your frustration as for my money the best kind of dancing (to do) is abandoned and joyous, but I can't comprehend why you might think dancing is never about anything else. Also, it isn't impossible to really enjoy dancing and be critical of how you are doing it.

I'll take an example my life to illustrate my point.

As a teenager I would always try and dance well but I would always have a great deal of fun. Why would I try and dance well? For alot of reasons, I suppose, but foremost amongst them was the desire to impress members of the opposite sex, and you know what, it worked. So not only did I have fun dancing (purpose 1), It also helped me pull (purpose 2).

Also, I'm not sure how ill defined the social rules are, or - more importantly - how difficult they are to pick up on. People don't intentionally bash into each other when dancing to Drum and Bass, although they might at a punk gig. At R&B nights a lot of bumping and grinding tends to go on, something you don't see too much at raves. Christ, all you have to to is walk through the door of most genre-based nights to see the acceptable, or *normal*, modes - it ain't difficult.

Notice that Junglists keep their heads down and their movements tight. Their internal critic is keeping an eye on what they're doing - they are conforming to certain rules - but I can assure you that they're having fun. Good, abandoned fun.
 
 
Ariadne
09:57 / 24.02.05
Gypsy Lantern, I do see you point but ... it does matter, unless you really don't care what other people think. I have a friend who leaps about all over the dance floor, waves her hands about, and looks a complete fool. She's having fun but, well, she looks a chump.
It's like anything - you can wear a pair of tartan pants instead of a scarf, and mismatching shoes - nothing wrong with that, and you'll still be warm, and you're expressing yourself - but you'll look a bit silly.
 
 
matsya
10:05 / 24.02.05
what's a Type II Nerd?

m.
 
 
Spaniel
10:05 / 24.02.05
I was gonna give the example of eating with your hands in a restaurant, but I like yours better.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:18 / 24.02.05
Whatever. I was never saying that there is no such thing as dancing badly, or that different venues for dancing don't have their own unique cultures and etiquette. Just that it is clearly best not to consider the dancefloor as "a talent show for wankers" or "a contest" if you're having difficulty relaxing on it, and that dancing should be about enjoying the music more than it should be about trying to "be better than that guy over there" or "turn that girl's head", if you are having problems getting into it. If you have hangups about dancing, which the first poster claimed to have, then it's best to approach it from the perspective of "play" than from the perspective of "competition". Style and technique can be refined later, if that's what you want, but they won't be worth shit unless your body is responding naturally, and that isnt going to happen if you're constantly scouting the immediate area and devising inane... musculo-pheremonic... pulling strategies instead of just feeling how the music affects you, letting yourself go with it, and putting all of that neurotic shit out of your mind.
 
 
charrellz
11:48 / 24.02.05
I understand what you're saying Gypsy Lantern, and I agree too. However, at the moment, I am trying to figure out the unique cultures and etiquette, as you put it. I understand that I'm supposed to move around, but I started the thread in order to find out what sort of movements I'm supposed to do here.

then it's best to approach it from the perspective of "play" than from the perspective of "competition"
You have to know the rules to play, even if it's not a competition.


Again, thanks for the advice everybody.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:02 / 24.02.05
what's a Type II Nerd?

[grin]

Well, you'd have to find a Type IV for a proper definition, but I'll give it my best

I was thinking of a group I was at college with: fresh faced, conservately dressed (smart but not designer jeans, shirts and v-necks), sometimes religious, punctual, polite, blending into the foreground. Most often quiet, friendly, but displaying a lack of political or social engagement (outside a small group) evidenced in statements like "discussions of morality have no place in the study of physics".
 
 
matsya
20:41 / 24.02.05
so what's a "suddenly elegant Type II nerd"?

Have to confess I don't think I know any type IIs...

m.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:34 / 24.02.05
"Fly hasn't accused anyone of racism, rather he's pointed out that some rather unfortunate stereotypes are being perpetuated in this thread. These stereotypes are often found in racist discourse and, by using them, we run the risk of reinforcing racist ideology."

Look. Yes sometimes its necessary for this to be pointed out, but in this case I really think it was overly jumped upon for no good reason other than to entertain Flyboy. And it's always Flyboy, isn't it? That's mainly all his posts are about these days. Good intellectual, politically sound, creative discussion on many subjects happens here on Lith and it gets ignored by Flyboy. Yet someone can make a very mild reference to a long past period of film where black men were stereotyped as good dancers and he is instantly there telling us we're all closet bigots, that we can't be trusted not to make veiled Racist comments and that, (worse) we have no idea we're doing it.

"Why was it inevitable that some Lither on this thread would say: "just watch a black man because they have natural rhythm"? Consider that question."

That's actually not what was said. What was said was, in the past people who make films have created a stereotype of a person who has natural rhythm and perhaps someone with no rhythm could watch that, because in the films that man always gets the girl. And since this thread is about 'getting the girl with your nifty footwork' I consider that to be a fairly amusing suggestion. At no point did Adam say 'black men have rhythm.' Quite frankly, taking issue with Adam's suggestion is tantamount to taking issue with suggesting a person dress up in a pilot's uniform to 'get the girl' because Tom Crusie managed it 'Top Gun' and Richard Gere did it even more successfully in an 'Officer and a Gentleman'. It's a gentle joke, based on the the suggestion that people believe what they see in the 'moovee's' to be true.

*Sigh*. I'm sorry to get all shirty about this. I just hate the fact that although 99.999%* of the people on Barbelith are the most politically correct people I have ever met, there are still those who decide this board is full of people who need to be 'educated' on the ins and outs of closet Racism and deliberately pick up on things in order to smugly point the finger.

Read it again: "Why was it inevitable that some Lither on this thread would say: "just watch a black man because they have natural rhythm"? Consider that question."

It wasn't inevitable, and actually no-one did. What was inevitable was that Flyboy would pull it out of a thread about dancing and turn it into a comment on the 'state of Barbelith.'

Because, oooh, aren't we the epitome of fucking Racist bigots.

*I say 99.999* because we kick the 00.001% who aren't off the site.
 
 
astrojax69
02:48 / 25.02.05
or just put on your red shoes and dance the blues...


actually, shoe colour is critical...

can we talk about shoe colour here?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:28 / 25.02.05
Quite frankly, taking issue with Adam's suggestion is tantamount to taking issue with suggesting a person dress up in a pilot's uniform to 'get the girl' because Tom Crusie managed it 'Top Gun'

I do take issue with that.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:11 / 25.02.05
You fucking feminazi!
 
 
iamus
09:53 / 25.02.05
You fucking feminazi!

Is that a joke?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:15 / 25.02.05
No, I think Gypsy is just being precious and over-sensitive - why, what could be more natural than a man in uniform sweeping a girl off her feet? It's what every girl wants and don't let them tell you otherwise.

But seriously...

Good intellectual, politically sound, creative discussion on many subjects happens here on Lith and it gets ignored by Flyboy.

I can’t be everywhere at once these days. There are many things on Barbelith I would like to comment on that I haven’t, and perhaps I don’t always choose where to spend my time best – for example, the recent decision that you would be a good person to decide who gets to sign up to the board, strikes me of being worthy of discussion, so perhaps I should contribute there.

But it’s also true that after a while I stopped taking part in certain discussions because one of the lessons Barbelith had taught me is that an unshakeable belief that “we” are all nice lovely huggable friendly liberals who never did anyone any harm is one of the most resistant forms of conservative mindset ever invented. This is amply demonstrated by the fact that you are still using the phrase “politically correct” in a particular sense above, and again insisting that, as the old thread title has it, clever people can’t be racist (all that endless discussion of how racism is not a binary either/or state but exists as multiple strands of thought that can affect any of us, just fell on stony ground, huh?).
 
  

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