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Moderation requests & discussion thereof

  
  

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Eloi Tsabaoth
12:57 / 12.07.05


Um, Morpheus? Can we talk?
 
 
Char Aina
13:02 / 12.07.05
has anyone tried communicating with Morpheus directly?

a while back i tried to give him a gentle nod in the direction of paeceful coexistence.
didnt seem to work too well, but it seemed he took some of it on board.
it was just an attempt to calm him down after he decided that everyone wasn't taking him seriously enough.
i gave him some hints and tips as to how to be less ridiculous in the eyes of the lith and how to get less shit flung in his direction.
he argued the tossa wee bit, but he did say thanks for the headsup and agreed to try and be less aggresive.

that was from 19.05.05.

i still have the PM, if that helps, and all the replies.
i'd rather not publish his at all, but i am willing to post mine if asked.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
21:11 / 12.07.05
Excuse me for sticking my big one in where it's probably not welcome, but why don't you just ignore Morpheus?

I understand that such "problems" can escalate if left unattended, but ostracism is (IMHO) probably the worst form of punishment or treatment one can receive in any social network. Some members consider Morpheus a Troll but feed and goad him / her, instead of typing their words with a little more empathy and patience, and / or asking him / her to calm down and explain more accurately and fully. At present, many of you are inadvertantly rewarding him /her for bad behaviour. Instead. (IMHO) one should either ignore Morpheus or help him / her to communicate in a more acceptable fashion, e.g. leading by example.

Personally, I often understand what Morpheus is getting at (although that doesn't necessarily mean I agree), but like many of you I generally object to the presentation of his / her information, arguments, etc. But then, we can all be guilty of such egotism and ignorance on occasion; no? Of course, this all runs the risk of becoming a patronising exercise, but as long as we all try to keep out egos in check I see no reason all this needs any drastic action by moderator's -- although the crap about Haus, Ganesh (Etc) and their famillies was disgusting and inexcusable; and a PM'ed warning might be a good idea.

Feel free to ignore me, of course... ; )
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:35 / 12.07.05
And the bit about having caused the London bombings with his mind in order to punish us fornot showing him respect? How was that?

Ignoring this stuff generally relies on the other party being smart or sociialised enough to understand that they are beng ighnored. I don't think Morpheus is there, nor do I want somebody coming to Barbelith for the first time to see Morpheus unchallenged. It's a pain, but the only other thing to do is to restrict his posting somehow...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:41 / 12.07.05
I think the reasons for not ignoring Morpheus were explained clearly at the top of the last page of this thread. You can ignore storms, polar bears and general conspiracy theory, you can't ignore someone who's treating a terrorist attack that could have killed you in an offensive fashion.

I think this subject should be laid to rest for now and if he does anything else in the same vein we react then. Contacting him seems like a pretty pointless thing to do because he's clearly not an average poster- there's no reasonable exchange here. It's idealistic to imagine that because someone is sweet and sends him a pm/email he's actually going to start interacting with people as people. That's not his purpose here, he's never responded in a normal fashion to anything anyone has said. He's not interested. On the other hand he's stepped over the line into the out of order once, he might not have realised how far over he was stepping, he might not do it again, up until that point his posts were just absurd and not really offensive (or haven't I been reading closely enough?). This feels like a waiting game to me.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
22:00 / 12.07.05
It's idealistic to imagine that because someone is sweet and sends him a pm/email he's actually going to start interacting with people as people.

True. But whether we like it or not it's as much a clash of ideology going on here as (for want of a more accurate terminology) "poor or vile social skills".

Haus, I understand what you mean about making sure others don't think everyone on Barbelith agrees with Morpheus' behaviour, but I think the point has been made already, and letting his thread pop up and then sink dead weight every so often would be a good way of showing us newbreeds how to behave.

Also, I assure you I was only reiterating the notion of "Ostracism", not claiming to have come up with it as a new solution to this "problem"; I promise.

As for being "sweet"? Me? Sweet?! Ahh... Bless ya cotton socks! (joke, joke!)

Best wishes (Honestly).
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:27 / 12.07.05
Ignoring this stuff generally relies on the other party being smart or sociialised enough to understand that they are beng ighnored. I don't think Morpheus is there

I'd be more convinced by that if there had been an actual, honest-to-goodness attempt to simply ignore him on the part of the board as a whole.

nor do I want somebody coming to Barbelith for the first time to see Morpheus unchallenged.

He's been challenged. The challenges are littered throughout that thread. I'm sure that pretty much anybody who's even loitered near the edges of a message board in the past would understand that his being left to talk to himself in that thread from now on wouldn't be an indication that people here agree with him.

The thread might stop bobbing up to the top if others - who've been in this situation before and really should know better by now - didn't keep on feeling the need to provide him with things to reply to. As he appears to take *any* reply to the thread as justification for continuing to post his own rubbish to it, can we not just give that a go for a while? Pretty please?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:34 / 12.07.05
This feels like a waiting game to me.

And that strikes me as just fine, really. We wait. *If* he embarks on a sudden rampage of trollage across the board - and if we're counting his post to the BB thread here, then it should be pointed out that it was no more trollsome than a number of those to the same thread from more established members - then we can ask Tom to have a look at kicking him off for good.

We don't continue to try and goad him into taking that step.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:48 / 12.07.05
Unfortunately, this comes up against the cat-herding tendencies of Barbelith - unless you receive a written assurance from everybody not to post in the thread, then it seems likely that at some point he'll say something that makes somebody else post in the thread. It would be easier, if the aim was to stop posts made to the thread, just to lock it.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
22:59 / 12.07.05
It would be easier, if the aim was to stop posts made to the thread, just to lock it.

Yeah, but as has already been commented in this thread, doing this may make things worse in other ways.

Why not leave it as an onging and (erm) "organic" example of how (not) to communicate effectively on Barbelith?

Sorry, but I loathe censorship of any kind, and firmly believe there is always a better way of dealing with such social issues.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:04 / 12.07.05
Well you're a conversation moderator so it's your choice not mine. His last post was rude enough to justify a bid to lock the thread, so I'm not going to criticise if two other conversation moderators agree to lock it. If you're primarily interested in presenting barbelith as a board that doesn't agree with people like him publicly then locking the thread where everyone shoots his ideas down might be a mistake. Particularly on balance because he might just start another one and the process will start again. It depends which point you hold above the other.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:09 / 12.07.05
Is it his contribution to that thread or his contribution to the board that you want to stamp on? If it's particularly that thread which is problematic than lock it, if you want him gone permanently than don't lock the thread and wait to see if his posts systematically justify banning.

We need to bear in mind that his response to goading remains his response. He still has control over what he writes and frankly no one needs to reasonably write you still don't get it, what do you really care about any of these poor bastards who end up in a bomb blast. I think the blame is on his head, not anyone else's.
 
 
Ganesh
23:20 / 12.07.05
Excuse me for sticking my big one in where it's probably not welcome, but why don't you just ignore Morpheus?

This is the eternal question where trolls are concerned - or, since it must be reexamined in every situation, the eternal discussion.

We don't try ignoring Morpheus because it's too difficult, on both an individual and a collective level, particularly the latter. The board is not a single entity but a collection of many individuals: if even one person responds, the 'ignoring spell' is broken and the troll replenished.

Positioned against the 'provide no input' orthodoxy is the home-grown Barbelith practice of swamping not-overly-persistent trolling with humour and whimsy - Morrissey lyrics, cheese puns, lime shower gel - until the badness is buried in good-natured silliness.

The difficulty with Morpheus, as I see it, is that we seem divided as to whether he's a troublesome poster who can be managed locally (in one or two threads) with concentrated silliness, or an honest-to-goodness troll who deserves either heavy-duty ignoring (impossible) or Scorched Earth deletion and banishment. The ignorers are sniping at the sillifiers, and vice versa.

Can we agree, in this thread, on a realistic policy to deal with him?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:27 / 12.07.05
*We* probably could, but it's become obvious that the active posters who even read this part of the board are in the minority.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
23:42 / 12.07.05
Why not put a two-way set of links from the thread to the Wiki as an example of bad etiquette, accompanied by a short, unemotional, and mutually agreed upon "PM to Possible Troll" explaining to Moprheus why this is happening? After all, Morpheus (and anyone else for that matter) is free to go elsewhere and find kinfolk who share their sense of oratory and (yes) ideology. (I have no idea if this is anywhere near the truth here, but) If Morpheus still feels it is his / her mission in life to convert Barbelith to his / her viewpoint then let the posts continue; it's a lesson to us all.

Also, (considering the differing reactions to thread have been voiced already) when someone (or even Morpheus) breaks the "ignoring spell" as Ganesh nicely put it, then it's merely an opportunity for us to smile wryly and check our own behaviour in all of life's arenas. Indeed, I'm sure most (if not ALL) of us self-reflect regularly, but it is easy to lose one's sense of humour and take it all FAR too seriously; don't you think? I say: "Send in the clowns..." (BTW, I pinched that link from somewhere / someone else on Barbelith, but the details escape me at present; sorry.)
 
 
Ganesh
23:57 / 12.07.05
Go ahead, try the ignoring, try the reasoning, try the self-reflecting.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
23:58 / 12.07.05
EH?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:01 / 13.07.05
None of it will work because Morpheus isn't functioning like a poster paranoidwriter, so any self reflection will be lost because it's really nothing to do with ourselves.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
00:10 / 13.07.05
But I'm not thinking specifically and exclusively about Morpheus.

Of course, if someone goes ballistic and obliterates threads with ego nob-rot then after a while you just shut them down, as the community and it's arena is at threat. But as has been said, Morpheus has (in a perversely respectful way) mainly limited his/her posts to that specific thread. The damage is very localised.

At the risk of sounding even more like a left wing liberal wet-blanket, the whole thread is almost like a perfect, analogous example of "What not to do on Barbelith" (as Elvis' life-story is to "Fame").

So why not just let it just bob up and down every so often (like I typed) to remind us ALL of good etiquette and communication?
 
 
Ganesh
00:11 / 13.07.05
What Nina said.

As far as ignoring goes, I'm not currently ignoring him because I'm operating on BarbeSwamp mode, as I do with localised troublesome posters (as opposed to widespread/spamming troublesome posters). If we can agree, in this thread, that the strategy for dealing with Morpheus is not swamping but ignoring, then I'll tow the line and ignore. Others (out of a membership of 5098) may not, and that's where ignoring falls down.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:23 / 13.07.05
I think letting it bob up and down is currently a reasonable thing to do but only if he remains inoffensive. His last post was clearly offensive so the question is whether people want to react to that now or wait to see if he responds in that way again. He is not perversely respectful as is shown here.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
00:30 / 13.07.05
Geniune (maybe daft) question: what is "swamping"? Is that just burying the offenders in silliness, sarcasm, etc? If so, the fact that adding another post brings the offedning thread to the top of the fora's view list... well, that's just counter-productive anyway, isn't it? (And I'm not for one second you that hadn't considered this any other way)

What I'm trying to get across (albeit badly) is that if one of Barbelith's members chooses to engage with Morpheus's thread, they are only helping him/her get the attenton he /she may be after. But even so, whenever I've seen that thread resurface in the Conversation I've taken it to be a little, coincidental reminder to keep my ego in check.

That typed, I think, as I'm hogging this thread, I'm failling miserably (as usual). So apologies to you all. I just found this whole "issue fascinating and wanted to try and get a few points, questions, ideas clarified, etc. Cheers.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
00:34 / 13.07.05
I think letting it bob up and down is currently a reasonable thing to do but only if he remains inoffensive.

I agree. So why not have someone post: "I find that offensive", followed by a roll call of those who say "Aye", showing Morpheus the level of disagreement, rather than trying to best him with intelligence or irreverent, ambivalent wit? As my designer friend says:
"KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid." And that's not an insult aimed at anybody or anything, I swear.

I"ll stop now, I promise.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:36 / 13.07.05
It's fine to ask questions.

I think it's more about claiming a thread back from someone perceived to be a troll. I don't really think it makes any difference if you swamp or ignore a troll, if you're going to ignore it helps if everyone does it, which is difficult to institute as many people have already pointed out. In my experience people who are really trolling keep posting whether there's a response or not, especially when they're talking about great storms and apocalyptic happenings.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:37 / 13.07.05
Because PW that tends to rile people up more than jollying them along does.
 
 
Ganesh
00:39 / 13.07.05
And swamping isn't always counter-productive. In the case of localised or lacking-in-drive trolling, reclaiming a thread by filling it with silliness has proved effective in the past - and it's easier to coordinate than mass-ignoring.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
00:57 / 13.07.05
I was trying so hard....

I'm not advocating an act of mass ignorance per se; I'm just saying that let this example be highlighted (i.e. with GOOD replies, links to Wiki, etc), and therefore used to encourage others to think before responding or posting on Barbelith. If someone should choose to respond, which may be necessary at times (e.g. "That is offensive"), then fine, thats cool as well (isn't it); there's no still no need (yet) to shut Mopheus down.

Also, I get what you mean about swamping. But to be honest, as a newbie it took me a while to work out what you were doing (seeing as I wasn't on the spot as the events unfolded). For a split second I was geniunely worried that I'd been duped and you weren't the fine body of members you all are (no pun intended). If therefore, you're worried about others thinking you condone such bad behaviour, then maybe you should demonstrate CLEARLY the opposite: "I find that offensive because...", etc. After all, "sarcasm IS the lowest form of wit".

As a relative newbie, I hope you see that my love of this place shouldn't come into question, but maybe for some of you the fact that you've been here so long means that you're less patient with those you consider Trolls, those who may or may not be "getting Barbelith" and hurting....hir. Or maybe not, of course.

I'll get my coat...
 
 
Ganesh
01:12 / 13.07.05
I think Morpheus's thread did get a reasonable number of GOOD replies. Unfortunately, he demonstrated rather a rather less than full appreciation of them early on in the discussion, burning his boats relatively quickly. Several of us tried, at various points, to point out the merits and flaws of his approach, but met the same all-purpose I AM TEH ORACCLE MORTELS!!1!!!! snark that we devolved into silliness.

Do you genuinely think links to the Wiki (available at the top of every Reply box) would've made a difference? To what extent do you think posters should respond to snarky trolling with well-meaning education? How long should we bang our heads on that brick wall? Should we stop at the sight of blood, bone, cerebral fluid, grey matter?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
01:13 / 13.07.05
Had another little idea (and I apologise if it's not a new one here):

I noted once that there was a moderator out there called "Barbelith".

How about if, for example, "Barbelith" received over (say) 100 PM complaints about a thread, poster, etc? Then, maybe Barbelith could post in the offensive thread using big f**k-off graphics saying that a large number of members have complained and this fact should be noted by all participants and readers of the thread and the board alike; then just let the thread (etc) continue?

As I almost typed earlier in this thread, censoring people NEVER works.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:18 / 13.07.05
No, you think censoring people never works. Personally I think that censorship does work, particularly in the case of banning.
 
 
Ganesh
01:26 / 13.07.05
It's perhaps a measure of your inexperience with Barbelith, ParanoidWriter, that you're cleaving so doggedly to strategies that have failed dismally in the past, while dismissing those that have been successful, either partially or completely.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
01:53 / 13.07.05
[Is there a thread yet about this in HeadShop. If so, I'm sorry if my comments here are misplaced and / or straying off topic.]

Nina, yes: I wholeheartedly believe that censorship is NEVER an answer and NEVER WORKS, despite what initial findings may indicate.

e.g. You ban me today and I'll come back tomorrow under a cleverer, subtler, and more spiteful guise. This is the internet, we're only human, and it's not hard to fool anyone.

Also, it's like religions trying to censor films, or governments banning ANY form of offensive literature. It's a pointless and self-defeating enterprise. Any organisation or society should be strong enough to demonstrate that such offending articles are WRONG by "reason", "logic", "example", "patience", and (I'm sorry but it's true) "love". A truly strong society will withstand attack from within and without because it is (for want of a less pious sounding words/concept) "righteous and superior" (in an 'I Ching' way); not "lazy", "scared", "angry", "impatient", "big", "powerful", "ignorant", or any of the other qualities which (ultimately) justify censorship. (None of those "words" are aimed specifically at anybody; I swear!)


Paradise can be defined as a place without those things which one doesn't like or which offend thee. I for one do not advocate some of humanity's darker secrets but to just banish them or just sweep them under a carpet of "Fnar-Fnar" is never as good a response as the methodology I've been struggling to work out here in these posts. As a theory (I admit) it's on fledgling, shaky legs and it's far from invulnerable. But I hazard a guess that in the future there would be less chance of such "offences" coming back to haunt us like a nasty poison typed boomerang we keep trying to throw away, if we adopted a more open and detailed, and genuiny positive response strategy. Not one based on locking doors and banishing the ugly evildooers.

Which leeds me back to voluntary mass ostracism. (IMHO) This should never be done as an organised pact, it should be up to the individual member; the Virtual equivalent of turning your back on a shameful person; not ganging up and throwing them out of the city and locking the doors of our prams.

But of course, nothing is fool-proof.

Gotta go bed now.... I'm probably making no sense at all. G'night all.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
01:56 / 13.07.05
It's perhaps a measure of your inexperience with Barbelith, ParanoidWriter, that you're cleaving so doggedly to strategies that have failed dismally in the past, while dismissing those that have been successful, either partially or completely.

Hmmm...maybe.

Can you give me examples of such failed attempts? Maybe if they were still around and easier to find I'd have noticed them. But then I'm as blind as a bat sometimes when it comes to seeing all the data.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
02:08 / 13.07.05
e.g. You ban me today and I'll come back tomorrow under a cleverer, subtler, and more spiteful guise. This is the internet, we're only human, and it's not hard to fool anyone.

I think you'd be surprised at how rarely anyone returns as a cleverer or subtler troll.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
02:14 / 13.07.05
Just looked at the Wiki again. Is it me or is this constantly being edited and changed? It's hard to kepe up without some kind of alerts. Of course, this may all be down to my research skills, but I'm sure there is stuff there which wasn't there before (in more ways than one).

Anywhoo, as I kind-of typed earlier, maybe Morpheus' Thread could be included in the "What is a Troll" section as an example of what many members of Barbelith consider to be one type of Troll-like behaviour?

And what about those big "f**k-off graphics", etc?
 
  

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