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Please Get Over The Invisibles

 
  

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Murray Hamhandler
21:58 / 06.11.04
Okay, see...I was despairing and wailing and gnashing the teeth and all that after the results came through, but then I got to thinking about some stuff that made me a little less despair-y. Such as: if, as the Bush camp asserts, he won more popular votes than anyone in American history, and Kerry didn't receive that much smaller a number of popular votes...might that not mean that Kerry also possibly won more or nearly as many popular votes as any other presidential nominee in American history? And isn't he, besides being the only viable alternative to W, a bit of a waffle-y douchebag?Yes, there's a schism in America, but it's an increasingly active and vocal schism. On both sides, admittedly, but people are getting passionate and interested. Yes, shit will continue to slide down the walls, but it's just going to convince those who might be totally grossed out by the shit that it needs to be fucking cleaned up already, no matter how unsavory the job (if you follow my metaphor).

Things will get worse. I feel pretty comfortable in predicting this (if not at all comforted by the fact of it). But people will continue to get angry. And the population of angry people will grow. Bush has nothing to lose now. He's going to cut loose. I can feel it. And he's going to overstep a lot of people's boundaries w/r/t what they will tolerate from their elected leaders. Change will come from this. I predict that, in four years, we will have a viable alternative to W. who won't simply have a chance to take the White House but who might (gasp) actually do a decent job. By that point, Kerry will look like the mistake and waste of leftie time that he is. Things will change for the better.

Or: America will collapse in on itself.

I'm going to stay positive and angry. We'll see what happens.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:22 / 06.11.04
Deric,

While I'd like to go along with your Blue Skies thinking on this, I really can't.

The last time the good people of the USA elected a right wing lunatic to be in charge of the most powerful destructive force ever known to humanity, for a second term, it could have turned out better. And Reagan would, I suspect, have to struggle a bit in the Republican Party these days, what with his Hollywood connections ( " Proly a fag, proly done drugs, and if that man's been saved, *wife,* then I sure as shooting ain't as crazy as an armed rat who's been hitting the moonshine, hard, for days. " )

I just don't see any cause for optimism here at all. On so many levels the result would appear to be decisive, that a narrow majority of American voters has come to the conclusion that the best thing for the human race to do is execute itself, and that so, accordingly, they've picked the man for the job. Appalling as the Bush team's attitude undoubtedly is to things like guns, non-marital sex and *rogue states,* those are, to a certain ( unacceptable, but still, there you go ) extent, negotiable.

The world won't end over the head of those questions.

What's going to finish it off, though not immediately perhaps, is this apparently hard-wired refusal to accept that all those weird beards who go on about the state of the planet, and that, may in fact have a point.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:28 / 06.11.04
Mr Frost: seriously, don't go there with the Fetch. I'm pretty sure that you're okay and you're a reasonable kind of guy. He, however, wasn't, if his posts on this and other boards are anything to go by. Any doubt I might have about this is absolutely miniscule, to the point of being irrelevant (I don't like to ever say I have no doubt about anything but in this case I am pretty fucking certain). Don't go there, even if I know you mean well, because you're just going to do yourself down.
 
 
---
00:15 / 07.11.04
K Fridge, I agree with you that it's not wise to go there, my only thing was with the type of conspiracy that he talked of and not him himself. There's just something about it........that I can pursue myself I suppose without bringing it up here.
 
 
---
00:16 / 07.11.04
Actually it's making me cringe just thinking about looking into that, I'm sure it'll be a brief adventure.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
00:48 / 07.11.04
I love all monkeys, but one of my favourites is the chimpanzee. I have a lot of time for gorillas, as they can always help you out in a tight corner, but lately, lemurs – whilst according to some sources, they are not strictly a monkey – have nonetheless managed to find a way into my heart. How’s about you?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:06 / 07.11.04
I'd class lemurs as honorary monkeys, definitely.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
02:54 / 07.11.04
Aren't they a bit more like cats though ? Cats with monkey powers ?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
02:57 / 07.11.04
Cats, monkeys... honestly, everyone's so fucking pedantic these days.
 
 
Lord Morgue
07:44 / 07.11.04
Cats bitten by radioactive monkeys? They're also a bit possum-like IMHO.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:58 / 07.11.04
 
 
bio k9
16:14 / 07.11.04
"Reagan would, I suspect, have to struggle a bit in the Republican Party these days, what with his Hollywood connections..."

Arnold seems to do doing just fine.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:19 / 07.11.04
One at a time. The first shall be "last"*.

Does that mean your gonna be hatin on me from now on? Just when I thought we were brothers...

We're not brothers. On my good days, I treat you as a noble father might treat a stunted child.

Y'know, you're a better parody of the kind of drug-addled wilfully ignorant loser who harms real work being done to uncover government corruption and abuses of power by confusing with an episode of the X-Files than I could ever, ever in a million years come up with. Evidence?

Well I could do but it will take hours. Can't you just settle with the fact that it happens a lot?

Frosty Finn the special child don't need no stinking evidence!

Be honest, when you say "meditating with Magic Mirror", you mean "anointing myself with my own semen", don't you?

There's still help for you, you rascally little fictionaut. You just need to wake the fuck up, ironically. Go see The Motorcycle Diaries or something, read some Chomsky, get a grip. Find out what the real conspiracies are: they're less exciting and glamorous than all that shit about alien hybrids, but hey.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:37 / 07.11.04
Let's say you're right, Flyboy, that might makes right in a culture war and you've got to do what it takes. I mean, I dunno, you could be right. I've never won a culture war, after all. How would you use their weapons against them? It seems like the rational, compassionate, and humane solutions all take too much explaining.

Two words: better propaganda.

I don't think it's really possible to convince the most fervent of Bush's supporters, say. But it might be possible to get their children. Okay, new thread coming in less than 24 hours, I swear.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:53 / 07.11.04
I don't think it's really possible to convince the most fervent of Bush's supporters, say.

Well, no. I very much doubt it is, because they're fervent. I think we can accept that there are tens of millions of people in the US who would vote for a marmoset if it promised to ban gay marriage.

However, that leaves many other people who would not. Some of these voted Bush, some of them voted Kerry, some of them didn't vote. At the risk of being horribly oversimplistic, the challenge is to make one set carry on voting Democrat, another set start voting in general and voting Democrat in particular, and convince the final set not to vote Republican, and if possible to vote Democrat.

Making friends with them might not be a bad start. Making friends with the lost causes is probably not useful, but... well, I know the instinct is to stamp on their heads, but the people who voted Democrat are in the US right now hoping that their beliefs and their persons are still going to be in some way respected by the Republican administration, representative democracy also being intended to protect minorities. In this case, I think they're probably on a sticky wicket, but it doesn't mean we get to turn on the Red equivalent. Honestly, I don't see anything we have having the power to hurt them. We just have to accept that they are a racist, homophobic, sexist, creationist, anti-progressive block vote who need to be compensated for...

Or we could stamp very hard on their balls. That's another option.
 
 
---
18:45 / 07.11.04
We're not brothers. On my good days, I treat you as a noble father might treat a stunted child.

Oh how high of you.

Y'know, you're a better parody of the kind of drug-addled sad-sack wilfully ignorant loser who harms real work being done to uncover government corruption and abuses of power by confusing with an episode of the X-Files than I could ever, ever in a million years come up with.

So I guess you've got your reality perfectly mapped out and anyone who thinks differently deserves only ridicule. I think you should try waking the fuck up too because you probably know as much about what goes on behind the scenes as I do. Do you know what's just as bad as total conspiracy freaks? People who think that anything that's been in a fiction program can't possibly turn up in real life. Take off the blinders man, the real world might have wierd too.

Evidence?

Well I could do but it will take hours. Can't you just settle with the fact that it happens a lot?

Frosty Finn the special child don't need no stinking evidence!


Well I thought anyone with a fucking memory would just know this, and besides, there's enough 'special' threads around. Like this one for instance.

Be honest, when yoy say "meditating with Magic Mirror", you mean "anointing myself with my own semen", don't you?

Probably the closest you could come to imagining it, but there's nothing I can really do about this.

There's still help for you, you rascally little fictionaut. You just need to wake the fuck up, ironically. Go see The Motorcycle Diaries or something, read some Chomsky, get a grip.

Cewl! I still have hope! LOLZ!

Find out what the real conspiracies are: they're less exciting and glamorous than all that shit about alien hybrids, but hey.

Oh like you'd fucking know. Stop being so fucking miserable with people and sort your head out. Yeah the world sucks but that's no excuse to be such a shit and you know it. If by some crazy chance you don't know it then you've got no right at all spewing this shit out at me.

Learn to live without your fucking dummy Flyboy.
 
 
kaonashi
19:26 / 07.11.04
One of the things I have found interesting about this election is that "us vs. them" mentality, particularly coming from the left end of the spectrum. One of the things that I think damaged their position was that their propaganda just reeked of fear.

Actually that may not be entirely true, I've just remembered Kerry's "A Stronger America".

What I guess I'm thinking of is the tendency to demonize Bush as a monkey and his voting base as ignorant inbred rednecks.

That alone made it difficult to talk to my roommate, brother and parents. All of whom voted for Bush.

Yes the South voted for Bush.
Yes they won because of the fundamentalists.

But the worse thing you can do is assume that these people are either stupid or crazy.

They are just as big a spectrum of personalities as can be encountered on this board. And they disagree just as much.

But they won and we lost.

And we need to know why.

Holding on to a crutch, like thinking of Bush as a monkey.

Its not helping.

My one major lesson from this election, was that I will never trust the Democrats, ever again. When we needed them most they failed us.

Personally I view the Invisibles as an introductory text, not to reality, but to the ideas of memes, thought as virus, etc. Its the first time I had ever encountered them.

It was valuable to me in that respect.

And got me reading things like K Punk and the Hyperstition blog

But as a map of reality its not really worth much.
 
 
---
19:31 / 07.11.04
There's still help for you, you rascally little fictionaut. You just need to wake the fuck up, ironically.

I know man, I know. Believe me I'm on it.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:40 / 07.11.04
Lemuroid ringtail possum

possum
 
 
Papess
20:19 / 07.11.04
Scarboi, I am not trying to justify demonizing Bush or anyone, but generally, the political platform of the right is one of intolerance, while the left's platform is one of intolerance of intolerance. The intolerance of gay rights, the intolerance of women's rights - to the point of denying their population life saving medical treatment! - intolerance of other nations, intolerance of authorative bodies over American nationalism, etc...you get the idea.

I think that being intolerant of of such oppressive right-wing agenda, is not such a bad thing...hmm? That is why the left is in fear. I have to say, intolerance itself is largely motivated by fear, yes. Yet and then again, sometimes it is just from plain ignorance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:48 / 07.11.04
Given that the entire Republican campaign basically revolvedf around fear - fear of creeping liberals forcing people to marry homosexuals and then give them abortions and fear of terrorism - I'm struggling to see where the Democrat campaign majored on fear.

I'm also unsure where Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, for example, is not an example of the Right demonising John Kerry. I think to identify either of these traits as a characteristic of the Left is somewhat perverse.
 
 
alas
21:21 / 07.11.04
Thanks Haus. Agreed agreed agreed.

I am in a mode of complete vacillation--i live in a red state, my relatives are all true red staters. Yes, they disagree, but they're midwesterners of scandinavian descent so they can't voice any disagreements. They go home and make a casserole. And maybe say something petty to their sister in law. But not directly to the person!

So that's partly what makes this so frustrating. There's this whole midwestern culture of "nice", of "polite". So you can't be fucking honest ever!!!

Ok. I grew up there. I still live here. I teach these kids. I'm remembering why graduate school was such a relief finally.

This is why its all so depressing.
 
 
kaonashi
23:19 / 07.11.04
Haus, Lilith

I would agree with you, the Right wing does and has used homophobia as a weapon politically.

And its mostly just disappointment speaking.

But if we are supposed to be coming from a more enlightened position than why do we find it so hard to communicate with these people?

I've been working blue collar for a while, and I just don't know where to start. The whole value system is based on respect, with some class awareness. And the people I agree with I find hard to defend, on that basis.
 
 
---
23:32 / 07.11.04
We're not brothers.

Yes we are, and one day I'll hug you.
 
 
---
23:39 / 07.11.04
That just sounds creepy, I give up.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
00:07 / 08.11.04
Better propoganda.

Well, sure, and I think the purpose of quoting the Invisibles is that it's pretty good propoganda for Our side, if you're aiming for the next generation. It isn't the final answer, though, obviously.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
17:22 / 08.11.04
Oh Frosty, do you have to bring up "evil Jewish magik" in a thread like this? I don't care how pissed you are, it's a horrible example and treading the line of icke-style casual anti-semetisim.

Oh flyboy, do you have to be such an Angry Young Man (TM)/Thirtysomething (C)* everytime you get a bee in your bonnet?

As far as your post goes: The ONLY WAY we will ever get rid of the right wing is if we make them into our friends. We don't get chummy with the gay-bashers, we don't pander to the racists - we have to MAKE these people into the kind of people we'd want to be chums with, IE tolerant, informed individuals. I don't have a clue how we're going to do it as of yet, but that's the only way towards lasting peace we're going to have on our terms. All this class war/drawing lines in the sand bullshit gets us nowhere. So maybe Grant isn't so far off after all.

Personaly, I got over the invisibles a long time ago - it was a load of shit.

*Not saying you're thirtysomething, I just have no idea how old you are. Delete as applicable.
 
 
---
17:52 / 08.11.04
Oh Frosty, do you have to bring up "evil Jewish magik" in a thread like this? I don't care how pissed you are, it's a horrible example and treading the line of icke-style casual anti-semetisim (which for m

Which for your m..........? Come on Dudley. I said : Jewish Magick used by SOME Jews (I'm not stupid enough to think that all Jews have a problem, that's racist, dumb, and fucked up.) as being one of the destructive forces in the world today

Just like, you know, any other minority from EACH and EVERY nation on this planet having their own set of evil bastards. It's not just one nationality, or race that I'm talking about here, I'm talking about every race on this planet, including the one I belong to having a fucked up few who cause trouble. Is it such a big leap for you to make to grasp what I'm talking about?

Here's the deal : I don't pinpoint Jews, I include everyone else aswell. Done. Simple to grasp. Very simple. Casually anti-semetic is what I'm not, and I'm not offended that you made the mistake of thinking that. I'm also sorry for bringing it up. But for the love of anyone you want to think of : It's probably true that every type of Occult Magick on this planet is being used for greed and selfishness by a minority of the people using it, and that includes white English males of which I'm one myself.

I've read a thread with a lot of the Fetch's posts in it, and what I realized after reading through was that yes, he seems to have lost his way somewhere. I'm confused and I feel sorry and sad that someone with such a brilliant mind does seem to be obsessed with laying the blame on one group. I really hope that he finds some type of solution to whats going on with that and I'm sorry to have dug this hole for myself. I now know that he got accused of being an anti-semite because of what he'd wrote on other message boards, and back then I was only arguing for him because I'd only seen his posts at Barbelith, and how good and talented he seems to be with Gematria and his knowledge in other areas of the Occult.

Believe what you will about me, I just hope your judgement is good enough to realize the truth. If it isn't, then I have myself to blame and I realize that.

Jesus Dudley, you could of just PM'd me, this thread was sinking. I guess I'll let my karma be the judge of what comes next.

I have a namechange coming up soon, perhaps I should type in the word 'Idiot'.
 
 
---
18:00 / 08.11.04
Actually Dudley : you could have though a bit before accusing me of that. I really didn't expect to get accused of that myself.
 
 
---
18:18 / 08.11.04
Sorry to anyone who's wondering about me after that, now I need to clear one more important thing up before I'm hopefully done learning a pretty serious lesson about not opening cans of worms, and I think it's important :

I quoted myself as saying :

Jewish Magick used by SOME Jews (I'm not stupid enough to think that all Jews have a problem, that's racist, dumb, and fucked up.) as being one of the destructive forces in the world today

Why I did that I don't know. I actually missed a bit out (which is there on the first page of this thread)

The Fetch talked about Jewish Magick used by SOME Jews (I'm not stupid enough to think that all Jews have a problem, that's racist, dumb, and fucked up.) as being one of the destructive forces in the world today

Anyway, whatever, I thought The Fetch was badly done to, now I realize I'm probably wrong after seeing a thread somewhere else in the last couple of days. Still, I hope he get's over it because other than the Jews controlling the world thing, he seems like a smart guy.

Fuck knows, I'm outta this thread and I hope I don't have to return.
 
 
The Falcon
18:46 / 08.11.04
Please learn how to spell semitic, boys.
 
 
---
18:57 / 08.11.04
And I thought the judgement had been cast........yeah I thought it was a wrong spelling.

Fuck this, I'm not sweating over this. I'm off for a walk, and I'm going to try and figure out what chance we have now as a race on this planet, not whether or not someone else is going to call me anti-semitic. What a fucking joke, have you people seen the voting rigging thread in the switchboard?!

And I'm trying to cut down smoking! With demons on my back! Believe it! Fuck you! I'm losing it here!

Anti-semitic?! Go fuck yourself!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:00 / 08.11.04
Still, I hope he get's over it because other than the Jews controlling the world thing, he seems like a smart guy.

Der Fuhrer was good!
Der Fuhrer was kind!
Often he would say to me "Otto.... ow!
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
19:22 / 08.11.04
I'm not calling you anti-semitic, boss, it's just that you're bringing up evil jew magik for no real reason, and it's hurting your credibility.

There's no such thing as evil jew magic.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
19:38 / 08.11.04
The winner-take-all system makes everything look pretty bad. But this talk of red states and blue states obscures the purple nation.

I really wanted to leave--good excuse to work on my French at the very least. But that map is a good selling point for staying.
 
  

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