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Please Get Over The Invisibles

 
  

Page: (1)2345

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:44 / 05.11.04
This is not a rescue mission. Well, it is, but it's about rescuing the victims of injustice, not the perpetrators.

The term "make friends with them until they beg for mercy" could only ever have been written by a drug-addled hippy. You cannot make friends with the people who hold hideous values, unless you are willing to compromise your own values. Once you do that, they've won.

There is an us, and there is a them. What will it take to make you see that? Was the last week not enough?
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
21:51 / 05.11.04
That's right, you're either with us or against us.
Hey, that's catchy!
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
22:03 / 05.11.04
Look, dude. No one here is confusing Grant Morrison for George Stefanopolis, it's just a goddam slogan. What do you want to get out of this situation? Do you want to mobilize the people who agree with you? I guess we could look at whether a significant number of professed Democrats neglected to vote. Do you want to convince the fence-sitters? Eh, I wouldn't count on people like that. Do you want to drive your ideological enemies out of power and punish them? I'm afraid you'll have to pick up a gun, because it doesn't work that way right now. Do you want to win elections? If you want to win elections, you have to convince enough of the people who vote to vote for your guy and not the other guy. There's, like, a limited number of voters. You've got to take them away from the other guy.

Now, when they shout "You suck, you baby-killing, assfucking, tax-eating monster!" do you say, "Oh, yeah, I guess I do suck and kill babies and fuck asses and eat taxes. I'd better change my ways" or do you get even more convinced of what you believe in? It seems so simple and obvious to you that the US president has waged a racist war in order to bankrupt the Fed, but for a lot of people that's just too farfetched. They don't hate gays and brown people, they're just vulnerable to fearsome language. You're going to have to find a way to make common cause with some of these people, and if you insist that anyone who voted for Bush is your ideological enemy, well, you've got a problem.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
22:09 / 05.11.04
Unless we believe that our ideological enemies have stolen the election through various forms of misbehavior. That's a different story.
 
 
---
22:18 / 05.11.04
Sorry, I just got Anarchy For The Masses and I'm travelling and meditating with Magic Mirror, digging deeper into it than ever.

Magick/Art/Fiction/Music is my life, The Invisibles has 3 of those 4 and all 4 if you listen carefully enough, guess that's why.

Does that mean your gonna be hatin on me from now on? Just when I thought we were brothers...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
22:37 / 05.11.04
That's right, you're either with us or against us.
Hey, that's catchy!


I think that's his point. It seems to be working for the other guy.

Let's say you're right, Flyboy, that might makes right in a culture war and you've got to do what it takes. I mean, I dunno, you could be right. I've never won a culture war, after all. How would you use their weapons against them? It seems like the rational, compassionate, and humane solutions all take too much explaining.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
22:38 / 05.11.04
Sorry. Fly Boy.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:23 / 05.11.04
There is an Us, and there is a Them.

But what is the secret of Their success? How have They gotten as far as they have?

By framing their narrative as a rescue mission: as restoring America's soul, as saving unborn babies, as saving children from sin, sex, and secularism.

By mobilizing their base with a perceived nobility of purpose, and the promise of actively making a finer world.

By winning hearts and minds.

By flipping Us and Them--turning Blue states into Red ones over a forty-year cycle.

By defining the terms of the debate until even We, their supposed ideological opposites, appear as a pale shadow of They--talking about all the same issues, even with minor differences. You could call that "finding common ground," and staking it out.

Setting up an Us and Them, Winners and Losers dichotomy only breeds bitterness--We win for a while, They go into exile, then the pendulum swings back yet more viciously. They're talking about forty-year Republican majorities now, a virtual one-party state. That's their revenge, and they're eating it cold. We'll plot our revenge, too, and maybe we'll get fifty years--and the bitterness of Their opposition will harden even further, and when the opendulum swings again, more people will get hurt.

If We are going to fight that, We have got to take an even longer view: we can't settle for cyclical flailings towards goodness, not any more. We've got to have a permanent transformation of societal values towards justice, compassion, freedom, responisibility, and equality. We've got to fight the culture war and win it--literally transform the culture.

To change the culture, you've got to change the people; that's what They've been doing for forty-some years, and I think it can be as viable a strategy for Us as it is for Them.

Thing is, as I've said elsewhere, it's a long-game strategy. Your beloved Revolution, swift and transformative and top-down, would prove a blip, an anomaly, if the underlying structures are not changed from below. We've seen that in post-Soviet Russia, among many other places.

If you want to build something that's going to last, you've got to be patient; and that pretty much precludes a swift, wrenching change, and pretty much necessitates, well, making friends with them until they beg for mercy.

For the record, I never was a hippy and I never took drugs.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:28 / 05.11.04
Also: the perpetrators of injustice are also the victims of injustice, particularly in the case of US politics; it is Red-state folks--Republican voters--who have suffered the most economically from the policies of the Republicans. The "values" stuff is a brilliant distraction--circuses, to keep Kansas's mind off the fact that there's no bread.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:11 / 06.11.04
Aw, Fly, you're no fun. Next you'll be telling us Cerebus won't help us get gurls.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
00:33 / 06.11.04
makes me wonder what lengths the Christian right will go to get things done?

Washington Post June 16, 2002

Conservative U.S. Christian organizations have joined forces with Islamic governments to halt the expansion of sexual and political protections and rights for gays, women and children at United Nations conferences.

...

to quote Isaiah Berlin's favourite US judge Justice Louis Brandeis.

"The irresistible is often only that which is not resisted."
 
 
Triplets
00:40 / 06.11.04
What the fuck are you guys talking about? Fly Boy/Flyboy is saying: stop taking it so fucking seriously and find some other hobby to get obssessed over. And George Morrisson is just a really good writer, not the Messiah-Prophet of the New Aeon.
 
 
eddie thirteen
05:43 / 06.11.04
Um, no...I think Fly Boy is speaking to something a whole lot deeper than anything in any comic book, regardless of its quality. It's the thing Jack Fear, myself and others were just talking about in Switchboard, where it was expressly stated that the division between Red and Blue America represents a "rescue mission" waiting to happen -- which is to say, our (Blue America) rescue of the main Bush voting bloc from itself. A notion I believe Fly Boy rejects on the basis of Red America's recent savage ass-kicking of Blue America in the presidential election.

However, I think what's being missed is that the whole "make friends with them until they beg for mercy" notion goes back just a little further than Geoff Morrison...it's a basic tenet of several leading world religions (heeded or otherwise), among them Christianity. Jack may have used Morrison's terminology, but Morrison is not exactly the inventor of the idea. And I'm relatively certain that most of us are enough aboard the reality bus that crucial judgments in re: the fate of the nation are based on more than an obscure comics series. I hope.

For my own part, I DO believe it's a rescue mission, but it's one we'll have to fight on two fronts. Maybe Red America can be brought around to our way of thinking; and because I feel that they're missing out, trapped as they are in paradigms that to me read like madness, it would be for their own good to do so. More important, however, taking obvious precedence, is rescuing Blue America from them. Again, this mindset is not new, and it's not even pacifistic -- it's the mindset the US brought into World War II, for God's sake. First win the war, then convert the survivors. But WIN THE FUCKING WAR.

Our civil war is ideological, not violent -- so far -- but the same principles apply. If we decide that the only way to "make friends" with Red America is to roll over, we are doomed. I don't think that's what Jack's proposing. The priority at present, however, is preserving our freedoms; which can be facilitated by making Red America want to preserve them too.
 
 
eddie thirteen
06:29 / 06.11.04
I should add, before I am called to task on it, that I do not have the faintest fucking clue how to go about doing that. It sounds kinda cool, though. Very probably it's a wonderfully noble concept that has absolutely no practical application, but I don't think it should be abandoned unless it's found to be so confusing to the militant mentality that I frankly believe we would all be healthier for cultivating as to be completely counter-productive.
 
 
Ganesh
07:59 / 06.11.04
I agree that 'this is a rescue mission' sounds a little wankypresumptious, but I think there's still a fair degree of mileage in 'make friends with them until they beg for mercy', overstated as it is.

As some of you will recall, I had a major run-in with my Baptist aunt shortly after 9/11, because a) I was moving to London, and b) I came out to her as gay. I wrote about it here. She compared my sexuality with the act of murder, a comparison which utterly shocked me at the time, and which became a great impasse in our relationship. Unable to convince my aunt that it was about love rather than "sin", I began exploring a number of Christian message-boards in an attempt to discover more about a mindset I'd never directly encountered before. That exploratory period's run its course, but I think it's yielded at least some insights about how best to interact with certain shades of religious extremism.

(I 'reported back' about some of that stuff here. Thinking of returning to that thread and mining it for possible insights.)

Going into Christian boards with a 'rescue mission' attitude was, generally speaking, a dead end - at least partly because much of the language of 'rescue' has been appropriated for religious purposes (saving souls from the brink of Hell). Also, entering a religious board with an overt 'mission' taps directly into the more paranoia-tinged myths of a widespread Homosexual Agenda in which inverts like myself set out as 'recruiters' to swell our numbers and, ultimately, Destroy The Family.

So no, the 'rescue mission' stuff doesn't really work.

'Make friends until they beg for mercy', on the other hand, is a useful approach - and even a means of effecting positive change. Making friends need not involve compromise of one's own core beliefs, just a willingness to enter into dialogue and stick it out - for at least as long as it takes to get to know some of the personalities, the people behind the avatars. On CBBS, on CF, on BibleVoice, I adopted a position of being resolutely unapologic about my homosexuality (and refusing to recognise the concept of victimless/Biblical "sin") but actively contributing to threads other than the hot-button stuff. Being warm, approachable, helpful, funny (and, let's face it, it's not hard to be the devastatingly witty enfant terrible of a Christian board), human. After a while, they begin to respect the fact that you're still there - even while you're arguing against literalism or for abortion, or pointing out (repeatedly) the difference between sex between men and sex with a child. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being angry, scathing, sarcastic - but attacking the argument rather than the arguer, and actively searching for common ground, however trivial, pays dividends.

Of course, what worked for me may not necessarily work for everyone. I found, particularly, that my medical/psychiatric background was useful, both in flamey arguments (and, as with "liberal", "debate" seems to have negative connotations in the US) and more conciliatory advice/soothing threads.

Naturally, you can't befriend all of the people all of the time. There were those I never got close to, and those who apparently hated me (or, at least, my online input). In one notable instance, I was banned from a board (for quoting Philip Larkin and asterisking "f*ck"!). The latter proved constructive, however, in that it appeared to mobilise a group of more moderate posters to start their own mixed-faith community, and it's still going strong.

So... I'd argue that 'make friends until they beg for mercy' is more than a snappy soundbite. Applied with committment, I've found it's an extremely valuable mode of interaction.

I mean, what are the viable alternatives?
 
 
alas
12:17 / 06.11.04
Ganesh--Your post is inspiring, because something like your approach is what I've been trying--probably not so successfully, alas! (to take my own name in vain)--to do in a very small way with my sister, who is an evangelical christian who sends me things like books called "The Case for Christ" and pamphlets on the evils of gay marriage and the "homosexual agenda," on a fairly regular basis.

Directing my efforts to one person may seem small, but let me tell you, she is also homeschooling her 7 (count 'em!) children, so there's a definite possibility of a ripple effect...

I've also sort of made it a point to put my arguments with her point of view in my own words, despite the fact that she usually just returns with pre-printed pamphlets from conservative christian groups. I'm not sure why that's important to me, but I'm trying to send some kind of message about my goals and agenda through the media I'm using. I want to emphasize to her that, no matter what she sends me, it's still Me, talking to her, not "the liberal left talking to putative benighted person from Jesusland." (You've all seen this, haven't you?) The media is the message in many ways.

She's not stupid, she does love me and will forever, no matter what. And besides all that, I have a lesbian daughter for whom I'd like to make my own family a safer place to exist. I figger if I can't talk to her, then I probably have no chance with anyone else.

(And I'm paranoid enough to believe that, if I am crucified at some point in this revolution, or shot by some crazed rightwinger the next time I do some thing as publicly "radical" as sitting next to a Democratic presidential candidate sign in Clark County, Ohio, I want her, at least, to feel a bit of guilt about it all. Which also makes me mildly evil, no? Please say I'm mildly evil.)
 
 
---
12:38 / 06.11.04
This is fucking stupid.

No one is blue, no one is red, no one is a democrat, no one is a republican, don't let them brainwash you. They've got you into such a ridiculous state that your calling each other red and blue for fucks sake!

Don't fucking fall for it.

Red and blue America. Can't you just tell it's about time we make our own story. Next you'll be associating them with fire and yourselves with water. You probably already are subconsciously to some extent and it's probably just what they want. No wonder things are fucked. (and no wonder they chose the colour red.)

Please just rememeber that you have red energy aswell, or maybe we'll all end up dead.

The British Labour party use red aswell. Talk about an attempt to steal our fire. Make the party red and paint the country blue. Make them look to us for fire because they ain't gonna find it anywhere else and we need our little whores at our feet.

For fucks sake we just watched them take us down. Of course there was no mind control, drugging, voting machine rigging or raping of the spirit, that would be a conspiracy! And we all know what happens to people who talk about those don't we!

Come on for fucks sake, how many clues do you need.

Purple.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:42 / 06.11.04
I liked how you tried to tell everybody that there are no sides, while all the time using the words "them", "they" and "us". That was funny.
 
 
Papess
12:53 / 06.11.04
I didn't read the Switchboard thread(s), so I hope I am not far off the green here...

I mean, what are the viable alternatives?

I wish I knew. I wish someone knew.

Just within this very thread there is an "us" and "them" dividing our efforts. Even myself, as an active fence-sitter, my own arse is separated on these issues. In some cases (generally, not here) both sides think the other is monsterous and demonize/villianize them. This in effect, dehumanizes the other side and makes it easier to justify segregation, enforcing the bond in the separate camps. If the "other party" is seen as just like "us", and therefore must be human as well...the unity of the camps deteriorates and even possibly starts a third camp - as was the case in Ganesh's account, at one point.

These fear tactics are the very thing that encourage segregation and fuels intolerance, allowing for the opposition to be used as the scapegoat. Quite conveniently, this also validates further each party's claim, as each dig their heels deeper and point their respective fingers at the other side for fault.

As alternatives go, the most viable one has always been education, but you cannot teach those unwilling to learn. To educate we need to communicate, and that doesn't happen since the each camp is demonized and paranoia propagated. So, perhaps convincing each camp to cultivate tolerance and learn about the common ground that everyone on the planet shares would be the logical "rescue mission".

However, people are funny.

It would make sense that the spokesperson for bringing about these types of changes in each camp, would be someone from each respective camp. It would have to be someone that held the trust of the camp. Of course, there will be those that are so brainwashed and diehard, they could create another camp that might be quite militant/judgemental and crucify/assinate the traitor to their cause before any real progress is made.

People's fears motivate them and can set off hair-trigger responses, and refusal to accept variant ideals. This is the "adult" eqivalent of putting your fingers in one's ears and singing "La, la, la, la, la! I'm not listening to you! La, la, la, la, la..."

Nothing, but nothing, gets resolved without communication. Then we can educate. However, you can't hold a gun to someone's head and demand that they be tolerant! We must find it within ourselves, individually, it would seem to me, to go about veiwing others in terms of unity instead of division.

As for the Invisibles..I couldn't give a monkey's bottom where people derive their inspiration for positive, healthy, tolerant change - just so long as it is.
 
 
Papess
13:00 / 06.11.04
Purple.

Yellow.
 
 
---
13:08 / 06.11.04
I liked how you tried to tell everybody that there are no sides, while all the time using the words "them", "they" and "us". That was funny.

Fucking hell you know what I mean man. I should've known better.
 
 
Papess
13:41 / 06.11.04
Pardon me for quoting myself, but I would like to change this:

"We must find it within ourselves, individually, it would seem to me, to go about veiwing others in terms of unity instead of division."

No, no...that should read:

"We must find it within ourselves individually, it would seem to me, to go about interacting with others in terms of unity instead of division."

Everyone on the planet would have to be committed to that in order for it to work.

Hmmm...What's wrong with this picture?
 
 
alas
14:20 / 06.11.04
Fucking hell you know what I mean man. I should've known better.

No, you should have spoken better, I think. I do appreciate your earlier sentiments, but I admit I had a similar reaction to them, because you started by saying "This is fucking stupid." What is that "this"? My post? Ganesh's? How? Where? Why? You were, seeemingly, putting yourself in a holier-than-thou position, labeling all of us as stupid.

It's frustrating that, just before your post, were several posts addressing the issue of division and communication thoughtfully, carefully (I'll include my own in that lot), and you came on with a rant that sounded like you hadn't really read any of them. That IS precisely the problem, no?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
14:46 / 06.11.04
Weirdly enough, the sort of polarised, Manichean thinking that Gianni was on about in The I********* would appear to be exactly how the Bush vote looks at the world. I find the rise of the Christian Right in the States as alarming, bizarre and just plain inexplicable as anyone else does ( Millenial angst, still ? Something funny in the bread, as in Medieval Europe ? Can it really be anything to do with the attack on downtown Manhattan, which must effectively seem like either Sodom or Gomorrah, where, you know, all those perverts and yuppies and *choke* liberals hang out ? ) but the whole " Them and Us " dynamic looks to be exactly what it feeds on.

For whatever reason, America under Bush now seems like a particularly obnoxious suicidal teenager, out on a ledge on the twenty fifth floor, and while one finds oneself wondering if it would really be so bad if the kid just jumped, it would, on balance, just make such a mess that the only thing to do is try and coax it down gently.

Though I doubt it'll listen.

I am going for a beer.
 
 
---
15:55 / 06.11.04
You were, seeemingly, putting yourself in a holier-than-thou position, labeling all of us as stupid.

It's frustrating that, just before your post, were several posts addressing the issue of division and communication thoughtfully, carefully (I'll include my own in that lot), and you came on with a rant that sounded like you hadn't really read any of them. That IS precisely the problem, no?


I was just pissed off, sorry if I seemed holier-than-thou. If there's one thing I hate it's holier-than-thou.

It's a few things really. Firstly this thread, I mean not everyone has been here for years and has read The Invisibles years ago, some of us are pretty new to it, so that annoyed me.

Then there's the almost lack of any chance of being able to mention a conspiracy theory without getting ridiculed at a place that's supposed to be open minded. I mean someone mentions a conspiracy theory and then someone else jumps straight in like a programmed robot going "Oh, you'll be telling us it's all 12ft lizards next and David Icke's right!" How old and lame is that? I'm sure it happens almost every time aswell and it's stupidly annoying. Like mention David Icke and Lizards every time someone mentions a conspiracy theory? This could be unbelievably damaging in the long run making people small minded and pressured into considering only what's cool or acceptable enough, and not considering things that could actually be the truth of the situation.

Finally it's probably the fact that even if I wrote something that really was worthwhile, people just fucking nitpick at anything they can find wrong with it instead of finding anything positive. Like I bet Dupre or whoever else doesn't like me would leave the post if it made a load of sense and not reply, but reply to it if he can find an error or an angle to make me look like a tit. I mean, get over it please, it's sad now.

Or there's the added fact that the world seems dark, this board seems dark, and I've only had one smoke in the last 15 hours in another attempt to cut down. Another attempt to smoke when I want to smoke and not when my body decides. Seeing as I'm here.......this is going to look really bad and it was something about The Fetch.......fuck it, if you think I'm an anti-semite you can fuck off and take pleasure in the thought that your wrong and you'll know it one day:

The Fetch talked about Jewish Magick used by SOME Jews (I'm not stupid enough to think that all Jews have a problem, that's racist, dumb, and fucked up.) as being one of the destructive forces in the world today, but he got accused of being anti-semite (I don't know if he was or not, and it's not the point so don't start.) and then banned. Well if there WAS a type of Jewish Magick being used by people in power then we're already dead if we aren't prepared to listen or even accept the possibility. No I'm not saying that I believe this is the case, but I'm prepared to accept the possibility. I saw him at another site and it got me thinking that's all. Calls of Anti-Semite get banded about and then it's all over because the two words "Anti-Semite" take the place of any brain functions previously there.

Yeah I'm pissed, and don't start up anything about the Fetch, Jewish Magick or Anti-Semites without a damn good reason because it caused a lot of problems last time and got people banned. But hey, if something has to be said, it has to be said. I'm trying to make the point here that if discussing something is taboo, then what do we do IF (don't connect this via fantasy land as me implying anything because I'm not) the subject that's taboo is being used against us and we aren't allowed to talk about it? Sounds like game over to me, and it's is actually because I fear that this type of thing is happening that I'm mentioning it here.

I'm done, and any charges of purposeful egoism, holier-than-though'ism, trying to kick up a fuss'ism are wrong, I've not attempted to deliberately cause a fuss, just explain a few problems I have with the place, probably because it's good to get things off your chest. I got asked : That IS precisely the problem, no?

Well what I just wrote is the problem. Also the fact that there's no pictures/images here anymore and before they seemed to add life to the place, and that there's sometimes arguments in the Temple forum about whether or not Chaos Magick is really viable or not and I think Chaotes should be left to do as they please. (should've added that in GL's question thread.)

There, I've said everything. I'm not lying, I've spoke my mind. Some of that stuff's been going around in my head for a while now. Oh yeah and actually there's one more thing : Can we please stop going on about Steve if it's doing Benfox's head in? The guy looks like he's having a breakdown judging by his last thread....
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:03 / 06.11.04
Like I bet Dupre or whoever else doesn't like me would leave the post if it made a load of sense and not reply

But it didn't, did it? That's the point. You replied to the thread without having shown a huge amount of evidence that you'd read most of the posts or, if you had, really thought about what they were saying. And I've said this before, but seriously dude, you need to get over your persecution complex, because apart from anythign else it's constantly pulling threads off-topic. I've probably replied to posts in which you've said something a bit silly three or four times in the entire time you've been here.

Like mention David Icke and Lizards every time someone mentions a conspiracy theory?

Evidence for this, please. In a new thread.
 
 
---
16:06 / 06.11.04
And yeah I spotted the 'it's is' typo.
 
 
---
16:14 / 06.11.04
But it didn't, did it? That's the point. You replied to the thread without having shown a huge amount of evidence that you'd read most of the posts or, if you had, really thought about what they were saying. And I've said this before, but seriously dude, you need to get over your persecution complex, because apart from anythign else it's constantly pulling threads off-topic. I've probably replied to posts in which you've said something a bit silly three or four times in the entire time you've been here.

What so you don't think that anything of what I said made any sense, or could possibly be right? Also, I didn't read a couple of posts, I just responded to the thread starter, which I didn't consider being wrong. Also I get the feeling that you don't like me, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it doesn't even matter but it annoys me because I respect you.

Evidence for this, please. In a new thread.

Well I could do but it will take hours. Can't you just settle with the fact that it happens a lot? If you still disagree then I'll find numerous cases and make a thread, but it could take literally days because I can't remember the numerous threads that it's taken place in. I'll have to search blindly for a long time until I find things because conspiracy hasn't usually been the subject of the thread, it's just......ahh I can do it by googling just Barbelith threads for David Icke and Reptilians/Lizards I suppose.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:54 / 06.11.04
What so you don't think that anything of what I said made any sense, or could possibly be right?

Neither. Both.

You're honestly saying, regardless of all the evidence currently on display, that there isn't a split between two different sets of voters? That there's no red and blue, no left and right? The results of the election prove otherwise.

Are there more than two sides? Is "red and blue" a simplification of the truth? Yes and yes. But that's the funny thing about democracy - it claims to provide everybody with a voice in theory, but in practice ift generally leads to those voices being polarised. Viable democracy, as the system currently stands, requires people to abstract their views so that they fit into one of two camps.

So yeah - I don't think what you said makes sense or is right. That's one of the two points you were trying to make, as far as I can tell.

Now for the other. You're honestly trying to say that what actually happened is a shadowy cabal rigged things? Well, that depends on how you define 'rigged', I guess. Is the system broken to the point where people are forced - or believe they're forced - into making a choice between black and white? Yes. Was there a secret sect of evil masterminds sacrificing goats to their own, personal archon so that they could "rape souls"? You know what? That's the sort of stupid, stupid nonsense that keeps this stuff happening. It's exactly the same as people claiming that the moon landings never took place - it pulls the electorate's focus away from the *actual* conspiracies and *actual* corruption that constantly screws over the lives of yr normal, you-and-me people. It's also remarkably simplistic thinking. It's all of this and more that leads to it being treated with contempt, and it's deserving of every ounce. There are better things to spend your energy on - things that aren't just laughable paranoia (or easily and swiftly dismissed as such). Look beyond the fantastic to the everyday and I'm sure you'll find plenty of far more worthwhile things to try and make others aware of. Make that shift and you might actually stand a chance of making a difference.

Incidentally, I don't not like you - I don't really *know* you. I'm sure you're a fine person, but I really feel you often fumble the catch by being too keen to prove that you're keeping your eye on the ball, and that frustrates me.
 
 
Madman in the ruins.
18:04 / 06.11.04
Erm Flyboy.

"No"

Will I feck get over The Invisibles. I haven't ever felt the need to get over The Wonderstuff,A Flock of Seagulls, Sapphire and Steel, The Prisoner,The Words of Bill Hicks and Norse Mythology. All of which enhance my day to day existence.


If you thenk you have evolved beyond the Invisibles then good for you. I'll meet you on the enightened plain in a few lifetimes.
 
 
Ganesh
18:12 / 06.11.04
... my sister, who is an evangelical christian who sends me things like books called "The Case for Christ" and pamphlets on the evils of gay marriage and the "homosexual agenda," on a fairly regular basis.

Mmmm. I'm not sure how successful those pamphlets are, in either direction. After the falling out with my aunt, I foraged high and low for just the right 'Why The Bible's Fine About Homosexuality' booklet, by a gay minister. I sent it, to no response whatsoever, good or bad.

Directing my efforts to one person may seem small, but let me tell you, she is also homeschooling her 7 (count 'em!) children, so there's a definite possibility of a ripple effect...

My experience of the Christian boards (and with Christian people) suggests that aiming small and counting on a "ripple effect" is the way to go.

I've also sort of made it a point to put my arguments with her point of view in my own words, despite the fact that she usually just returns with pre-printed pamphlets from conservative christian groups. I'm not sure why that's important to me, but I'm trying to send some kind of message about my goals and agenda through the media I'm using. I want to emphasize to her that, no matter what she sends me, it's still Me, talking to her, not "the liberal left talking to putative benighted person from Jesusland." (You've all seen this, haven't you?) The media is the message in many ways.

At least you're getting some response - and you have the moral high ground...

She's not stupid, she does love me and will forever, no matter what. And besides all that, I have a lesbian daughter for whom I'd like to make my own family a safer place to exist. I figger if I can't talk to her, then I probably have no chance with anyone else.

I think it's worthwhile continuing to make that effort. I wish I could say I'd had some success with my aunt, but I've had nil return there. Sadly, I'm probably more successful online that in Real Life...

(And I'm paranoid enough to believe that, if I am crucified at some point in this revolution, or shot by some crazed rightwinger the next time I do some thing as publicly "radical" as sitting next to a Democratic presidential candidate sign in Clark County, Ohio, I want her, at least, to feel a bit of guilt about it all. Which also makes me mildly evil, no? Please say I'm mildly evil.)

That's perhaps "mildly evil" in the way that water is mildly spicy.
 
 
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19:17 / 06.11.04
Was there a secret sect of evil masterminds sacrificing goats to their own, personal archon so that they could "rape souls"? You know what? That's the sort of stupid, stupid nonsense that keeps this stuff happening.

Well I never said anything about sacrificing goats, but I think it's possible that they could be taking their orders from Archons. I don't 'believe' it, but I consider it a possibility. Archons/Demons/Devils/Entities and so on. It's possible. I've felt or sensed some hugely fucking strange things in the last six years and I think that some politicians are corrupt to fuck, so I just put 2 and 2 together, but only as a possibility. It's possible that this is a test and they are what we have to overcome to awaken from the dream.

And as for red and blue, no. I don't think there's no red and blue sides in America, they've created that.
 
 
Ganesh
19:35 / 06.11.04
Well I never said anything about sacrificing goats, but I think it's possible that they could be taking their orders from Archons.

Wellll... have a gander at this...
 
 
Papess
20:04 / 06.11.04
[slightly off topic]

"Red and Blue America" sounds like a Matrix reference.

[/sot]
 
 
The Falcon
20:09 / 06.11.04
Oh come on, Flybers.

The world looks pretty fuckin grey where I'm sitting too, but I think you're misdirecting.

I mean, how d'you propose we defeat them?

I genuinely feel sorry for people fuelled by hate and distrust, like those that voted for the banning gay marriage acts (regardless of my own feelings about the odd conjunction of the two concepts); I think something went wrong for them somewhere in their lives - they became without urbanity, lost compassion and are overcome with unnecessary prurience. Etcetera.

Propose something, son. I'm as stuck as you, but lashing out in this fashion helps how?
 
  

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