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Please Get Over The Invisibles

 
  

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Gypsy Lantern
11:12 / 10.11.04
My 3 book recomendations would be: 'Gargantua tabby cat folds through wet space', 'Motorbike boys and a lovely kitten', and 'They love it really', all by Paddy Fingers. You can probably pick them up on ebay.
 
 
---
11:15 / 10.11.04
Whaaa?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:26 / 10.11.04
I suspect Illmatic's recommended conspiracy book might cover the subject in a balanced, rational reality-based way rather than a "Fuck man! Aliens! Black Helicopters! Give me another hit on that bong!" sort of a way. Which is a good thing. Alternatively, his motivations might be purely based around hate and malevolence, and this could just be another of his dreadful schemes to drive you to an early suicide, shivering on a bridge clutching your battered copy of 'Rude boy skanking on the big cats bowl', before plunging into the abyssal depths below....
 
 
---
11:30 / 10.11.04
Well maybe I'll just have to get my lessons from the abyss then if that's the case, I'll just have to get my sword out.

And call on the lux occulta of course.
 
 
illmatic
12:14 / 10.11.04
I've suggested it for the former reason rather than the latter. (Shame, good thinking, GL). It's also cheap (£3.99!) and short (90 pages or so).

With regard to a bit of Chomsky, I always find the interviews easier to digest than the books. More up to the minute as well. You might find this archive useful.

Don't know what else I'd suggest - you might like Martin Gilbert's History of the 20th Century. It's a three volume set (only read the first two myself) with a chapter for each year. He uses lots of contemporaneous accounts to illustrate his points. The material on WW1 & 2 in particular is really gripping. I would hope you felt less inclined to believe in grand conspiracies after reading something like this - it's hard to believe any one group is responsible for the big bloody mess depicted.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
14:07 / 10.11.04



Think about it maaaaaaaaan.
 
 
Spaniel
14:35 / 10.11.04
Well maybe I'll just have to get my lessons from the abyss then if that's the case, I'll just have to get my sword out.

I'm sure the denizens of the abyss will be happy to see your, er, sword.

Seriously Neon, you sound like you could do with planting your feet on the ground for a year or ten.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:40 / 10.11.04
My God, did this thread ever go somewhere I wasn't expecting.
 
 
iconoplast
14:52 / 10.11.04
I think Flyboy's assertion that idolizing a lifestyle of drugs and preposterous conspiracy theories isn't going to get us anywhere is being demonstated quite nicely.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:04 / 10.11.04
Three books for Neon shade (follow the links for summaries):

The Edward Said Reader

World Orders, Old and New by Noam Chomsky

Zeros and Ones by Sadie Plant

That last one's a little different to the other two, and is mainly me being nice, because you'll love it, you little Matrix hacker you...
 
 
Bear
15:09 / 10.11.04
I'm liking this book suggestion idea, maybe we could suggest books for other members? A little project maybe?
 
 
iconoplast
15:13 / 10.11.04
On the other hand, I don't really agree with Flyboy. I don't think that an 'us and them' mentality is going to help.

That map of Purple America doesn't just show that the country isn't as divided as I thought. It also shows that the country, as a whole, even in the purportedly Blue states, is far more conservative than I am.

So the political agenda I favor doesn't fly with the wish of the majority of voters. And I'm not sure which is a more appropriate reaction: to accept that, in a democracy, sometimes you've just got to shrug and accept that your views are the minority views, and you're not going to win this one, or to decide that you have to polarize the electorate further, redrawing the boundaries of the spectrum so that the center shifts to the left.

Thich Nat Hanh was (is?) a Buddhist Monk from vietnam in the 60s. In his book Being Peace, he offers some interesting ideas on the Peace Movement.

"In the peace movement there is a lot of anger, frustration, and misunderstanding. The peace movement can write very good protest letters, but they are not yet able to write a love letter. We need to learn to write a letter to the congress or to the President of the United States that they will want to read, and not just throw away. The way you speak, the kind of understanding, the kind of language you use would not turn people off. The President is a person like any of us.

Can the peace movement talk in loving speech, showing the way for peace? I think that will depend on whether the people in the peace movement can be peace. Because without being peace, we cannot do anything for peace. If we cannot smile, we cannot help other people to smile. If we are not peaceful, then we cannot contribute to the peace movement."

I really believe this - that the language of peace cannot be the same as the rhetoric of war. In a certain sense, we can't be intolerant of intolerance. But what's the alternative? If a "rescue mission" is going to be effective, it can only be effective between people. Not among groups. For me, at least, understanding why someone would choose to vote for Bush becomes harder when I have watched so much propoganda from the left. Partially, just because as fas as I can tell everyone with a sense of humor is on the left, and partially because the propoganda from the right isn't targeted at me, so I don't really get it.

In another talk I found on google, he offers the following advice:

"We may have enough good will to listen, but many of us have lost our capacity to listen because we have a lot of anger and violence in us. The other people do not know how to use kind speech; they always blame and judge. And language is very often sour, bitter. That kind of speech will always touch off the irritation and the anger in us and prevent us from listening deeply and with compassion. That is why good will to listen is not enough. We need some training in order to listen deeply with compassion. I think, I believe, I have the conviction, that a father, if he knows how to listen to his son deeply and with compassion, he will be able to open the door of his son's heart and restore communication. "

The reason I bring this up is, basically, I think (1) that 'reconnaisance' is a better first step than rescue, and (2) 'rescue' as a purpose isn't going to work. People who voted for Bush didn't accidentally hit the wrong button. They meant to vote for Bush and if we treat them like people who have made a mistake, or people who are unfortunately not intelligent enough to realize, as we have, that they're being duped - if our approach is from that kind of stance, it's destined to fail.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:25 / 10.11.04
to decide that you have to polarize the electorate further, redrawing the boundaries of the spectrum so that the center shifts to the left.

Correct me if I misunderstand you, but after the last election, the "left" in the USA can't possibly shift any further to the "centre" - can it? Whilst I know a lot of the people who wanted to see Kerry win didn't labour under any illusions that he or the Democrats in general could seriously be called "left-wing", they still found themselves in the unenviable but possibly at the time strategically inevitable position of supporting the Presidential bid of a man who talked about wanting to hunt down and kill terrorists, a man who basically said that he thought abortion was usually wrong because of his religion (he just wasn't going to, y'know, BAN it), a man who played up his record of fighting in the name of America and who liked to go shootin' and fishin'... How much more 'centrist' can you get? And that didn't work, so hey, why not try 'polarised'?

Has Nat Hanh ever heard the phrase "No Justice, No Peace"?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:30 / 10.11.04
That might sound a little too snarky, but in all seriousness: not everybody considers themselves to be part of the "peace" movement, even if we might consider joining a nominal "peace" march the right action for the right time, tactically. I believe in self-defence, whether it's the right to resist a more powerful state that wants to bulldoze or bomb your house, or the right of people to defend themselves against class war initiated by the rich... I'm not a Buddhist.
 
 
---
15:40 / 10.11.04
Thanks Illmatic and Flyboy, I'll check some of those out and tell you what I thought of them.

I'm sure the denizens of the abyss will be happy to see your, er, sword.

Well they'll have to be, because if they think I'm going out without making up for some of the mess I've made so far, they're in for a shock. A ridiculous shock. With respect to the helpful beings of the abyss at the same time of course. (it's an astral weapon, not a physical sword.)

Seriously Neon, you sound like you could do with planting your feet on the ground for a year or ten.

Maybe.

Iconoplast : Time will tell.

I PM'd Dupre and Haus for book suggestions aswell, but I guess they're not replying to me.......

I'm gonna ask the Morrigu if she can help me burn off some of my problems to teach me a lesson......I'd rather go through spiritual pain than endure another set of crazy posts like this. It's time to seek Lugh aswell. Will be back when I'm back, but hopefully not the same, I fear there's more wrong than just conspiracy theories and drugs. I feel ill.

"I fear this madness has gone on for too long. It's time to seek the hidden light." - Neon
 
 
iconoplast
15:40 / 10.11.04
I meant that, in order to get more of what I think is right to happen, the country as a whole has to vote father left.

And I'm not sure if I think that radicalizing my opinions, and agitating at the far pinko end of the spectrum just so the compromise centrist position moves infinitesimally closer towards what I actually believe is politically responsible.

Nah, 'snot snarky. I'm not actually a Buddhist either. I'm trying to draw some kind of correlary between the Peace Movement (of the '60s) and... and moveon.org, or whatever the equivalent now would be, I guess.

I dunno. I'm pretty convinced that armed insurrections don't generally work out. But the question of self-defense in a class war is a really good way of framing what's going on right now.

Because it's not that I believe in turning the other cheek, as much as that I don't think that a class war can do anything besides change who is oppressing whom.

I just have a deep faith in the idea of national dialogues, and political debate. And I'm having trouble coming to terms with the fact that there doesn't seem to be much possibility of communication between the lines drawn by the parties.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:44 / 10.11.04
The thing that seriously derails my thinking on this subject is the growing evidence that the "right" and the gay marriage ban--political ideology--is not what won this election for Bush, that it was simply controlling the means of production, controlling the voting machines. On truthout there are links to documented failures of voting machines in key districts to accurately count votes. This seems like a huge story to me, but the headlines in the aftermath of the election are all Scott Petersen, Fallujah, and sports. How can loving kindness fight that?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:47 / 10.11.04
I'm replying, Jack, but I keep changing my mind about books. So I'm not recommending any (well, one, but not really for the reasons GL suggested), for reasons that I'll explain in the PM.
 
 
Sir Real
15:54 / 10.11.04
Has Nat Hanh ever heard the phrase "No Justice, No Peace"?

I doubt that he seeks his wisdom from bumberstickers. Or comic books, for that matter.

Remember all those subversive groups that were around in the '60s? Remember how a common strategy of the F.B.I. was to infiltrate them with fake members who would always call loudly for extreme measures? Are any of those groups still around?

I'm not suggesting that Flyboy is anything but the sincere, committed proletariot that he seems. I do suggest that the similarity would not end at the suggestions, but would follow thru to the results.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:56 / 10.11.04
I have the same kind of problem as Flyboy-

We need to learn to write a letter to the congress or to the President of the United States that they will want to read, and not just throw away. The way you speak, the kind of understanding, the kind of language you use would not turn people off.

I wouldn't want to write a love letter to someone I have no love for. I wouldn't want to concede to a man who goes against almost every belief I have- a man who is pro-life, pro-death penalty, anti-gun control, whose foreign policy is terrifying. I could never write a love letter to a person who had set up an internment camp. I would betray myself if I showed one iota of reason, compassion or faith in Bush's ideology, I would feel responsible for at least some of the death he has caused and I would be lying horribly because I don't understand and I could never be understanding when I find his position on (and in) life absolutely and utterly abhorrent.

Peace and concession is not the right tack to take with a man who will trample all over you and take away the rights your ancestors fought for.

This basically comes down to one thing... your country has elected a fascist who is about to begin stripping your people of their rights one by one. In the second term a President thinks of his (or her) legacy.

That's your reality now and you can try to love that if you want to, you can try to be positive but you need to ask yourself one thing, in ten years time do you want to say 'I loved the Bush administration' or 'I tried to stop them taking rights away from all of the women and homosexuals in this country'. I'd opt for the latter, I'd fight the intolerance because when you're tolerant of this kind of thing it steps on you like the bug you've disempowered yourself to be. There's a huge difference between non-violence and love.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
16:16 / 10.11.04
...in ten years time do you want to say 'I loved the Bush administration' or 'I tried to stop them taking rights away from all of the women and homosexuals in this country'.

I bet Jesus would have said both. It's possible to love someone you are fighting against, guys.

But, y'know, sometimes love gets angry and/or violent. Somtimes tables need to be flipped, spilling money and sacrificial animals onto the streets in front of the temple.
 
 
Sir Real
16:46 / 10.11.04
I think it's vitally important for the progressives, and the Democrats too, to flee as far as possible from the 'We're right, they're evil' strategy. Yes, amongst ourselves we can agree that this administration is morally (and ethically?) repugnant. The problem is that they are also in bed with that part of society that makes it's living on such moral absolutism: Organized Religion(TM).

That, since the '80s at the latest, has been the dynamic. The Republicans seem to base their policy on how they think things ought to be, the Democrats on what they think will work best. If we make it a battle of right and wrong we've already lost, because we have a broader and much more flexible idea about the subject than they do. The fact is that most of America does not feel that Bush is a fascist coming to take away our (or their, rather) rights, and they will disregard further ideas suggested by someone who claims he is.

I think it would also help us the realize that reasonable people can reasonbly disagree on issues such as the death penalty, gun control, and yes, even abortion. Again, we can't make it about right and wrong because, imo, 'they' are less flexible and more monolithic about right and wrong than 'we' are. It can't be 'Abortion is about a woman's right to autonomy over her own body, fascist,' but instead to explain, as patiently and as many times as neccesary, why access to it is in the public's best interest.
 
 
Papess
17:01 / 10.11.04
But, y'know, sometimes love gets angry and/or violent. Somtimes tables need to be flipped, spilling money and sacrificial animals onto the streets in front of the temple.

Just do it with love.


right.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:13 / 10.11.04
Barbelilith: I've lost the ability to discern meaning from a sarcastic remark. I blame the economy, Bush, and television.

So you're saying that opposing someone or something while at the same time having love for them is impossible?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:29 / 10.11.04
Or maybe you mean that if someone gets violent or angry, then they obviously don't have love for the object of their anger or violence.

Or maybe you mean that anger or violence is not a proper or valid expression of love.

Either way, I don't buy it.
 
 
iconoplast
17:29 / 10.11.04
Anna:

Concession isn't what I'm reccomending. The Democratic Party conceded the election because, apparently, we (i.e., me, and other people who wanted Kerry to be president) lost. Whether we actually lost is another question.

I don't want to write a love letter to Bush either. And I'm not really sure I could write one with any sincerity. The buddhist thing is a little foofier than I want to be, but I'm not sure how exactly to phrase my feelings about which path I think we should be taking. But I do think that, if the liberal voices in America want to be able to engage in any kind of constructive dialogue with the conservative voices then the problem is not how best to demonize the President that a majority of the country voted for.

I think that in choosing to vote for Bush, the majority of Americans have stated that they consider it more important to shore up an American Identity which was lost during the 70s - when America lost its economic momentum. I don't think we have ever recovered from that blow, I don't think the picture of blue collar america as a self reliant manufacturing base is accurate, I don't think the economic policies Bush believes in are going to help with the America we actually live in. But most Americans don't care. I think most of America voted for a national self-image - they voted against the coming change in national identity that will accompany our adapting to today's reality.

And I think a little understanding can go a long way towards coaxing a block of voters mobilized by fear - not just of terrorists but of irrelevancy - into voting for change.

I think, essentially, that the foofy "Love them while they hate you" is a more effective strategy for getting what we want than "Hate them while they hate you." We tried hating them louder than they hate us, and we couldn't. I think dropping the whole construct of us vs them and trying to reframe the dialogue in different terms can't help but be more effective than responding to their pigeonholing and stereotyping in kind.

I don't think the rhetoric of conflict and intolerance - propoganda, demonizing, spin doctoring, lampooning, and bitter vilification - can serve to do anything but extend conflict and intolerance. I'm just not quite so sure about what kind of language we should be using in its place is all.

I don't think that 'I loved the Bush administration' and 'I tried to stop them taking rights away from all of the women and homosexuals in this country' are mutually exclusive positions to hold. I wish I could hold them both, but I'm not quite there. But if we want people who voted for Bush to vote for our candidate next, we're going to be arguing, in essence, that both of those positions are tenable simultaneously.
 
 
Papess
17:46 / 10.11.04
Apologies Johnny O, that was quite vague.

I am not saying it is impossible, just not likely to happen, especially for the Bush administration. Unless of course he sends over troops that consist solely of Shaolin monks, any involement that Bush and Bush's America is not done from the heart. Fascism is just not compassionate enough.

I realize that you were talking of the left, but I think it is equally hard, not impossible, but hard, for us to accomplish. Yet!, I cannot see it being done any other way, either. It is just one of those things we say, but is near impossible to execute, especially globally. We can barely get this right, in our own homes!...or even right here on Barbelith!

I don't see people fighting with love here, at least not very often. It is more about one-liners and one-uppers and dressing people down instead of giving them dignity and dressing them up. We talk about this concept, yet cannot even action it ourselves and we want to just sit in front of our computers and theorize about reconciliating Red and Blue America? What good are we? That is the reason for the sarcasm. Also the imagery of Scud missles being sent over with flowers...

Anyway, I am sure there are people here who are active and try to create harmony...but, then there are also those who love to stir the shit. (As Keggers would say: Those who stir the shit, get to lick the spoon!) I am sure they feel justified to do so...but it is always, always in the how. What intent do we dispatch through our actions? I most certainly agree with the concept of fighting with love....but love in politics? It is about greed and power.

What we need is an E-bomb. E standing for "enlightenment"

Just a note: If there is anything remotely similar in the Invisibles about e-bombs, I haven't a clue about it, but it sounds like something GM would write. I have only read the first two TPB. I got over them pretty quick.
 
 
grant
18:03 / 10.11.04
Peace and concession is not the right tack to take with a man who will trample all over you and take away the rights your ancestors fought for.


Who said anything about concession?

Hanh's a Buddhist monk from Vietnam writing in the 1960s... at the same time his colleagues were setting themselves on fire as a demonstration of what napalm was doing to their society. And they were doing that with love, yes.

It was his connecting with Martin Luther King, Jr. that turned the Vietnam War into a civil rights issue and virtually created the peace movement as a viable voice of protest in America.

He's a man who knows something about creating political change.

Here, another Hanh quote:

To burn oneself by fire is to prove that what one is saying is of the utmost importance. ... The monk who burns himself has lost neither courage nor hope; nor does he desire nonexistence. ... He does not think that he is destroying himself; he believes in the good fruition of his act of self-sacrifice for the sake of others."
 
 
Papess
18:22 / 10.11.04
So, what are you saying Grant? We should all go burn ourselves alive?

I realize that startled the world when it happened. But true power-hungry corporate greed doesn't really give a rat's ass about civil rights or human suffering. It literally is just an evil force. I reckon the only reason that there is any backing of human rights by coporate America..or any othr country, is because it is good PR and it keeps the slaves quiet.

Then a few years later, they can replay the same ghastly events in yet another country. Evil is like herpes, it just keeps coming back. Each time disguised as something/one else...and yes, we have to keep fighting it with love.

However, I think that the virus of evil has become resillient to the antibiotics of love we have perscribed.

I suppose we need stronger love.

(Pardon me for the subliminal flashes of Brian Ferry stored in this post.)
 
 
alas
18:34 / 10.11.04
Thanks, grant--that's exactly what I was wanting to say, but you said with clarity and precision.

Love is HARD. It's not foofy. Sentimentalism is foofy.

There's sentimentalism by the bucketful on both left and right (think: political advertisments...) but I do believe its a kind of dishonesty that the right is especially prone to. Milan Kundera called it the "kitsch of the right," which he explains with two tears cried upon witnessing a sentimental scene like children in a park:

“The first tear says: How nice to see children running on the grass. The second tear says: How nice to be moved, together with all mankind, by children running on the grass! The second tear makes kitsch kitsch.”

The kitsch of the left, he says, is "The Grand March."

Barbelith book suggestion: The Unbearable Lightness of Being.

I tried to write about love in this thread in the head shop, and it killed the damn thread every time...sigh...
 
 
iconoplast
18:36 / 10.11.04
... true power-hungry corporate greed doesn't really give a rat's ass about civil rights or human suffering. It literally is just an evil force. I reckon the only reason that there is any backing of human rights by coporate America..or any othr country, is because it is good PR and it keeps the slaves quiet.

I think this is totally true. Corporations exist in an extramoral economic space, where the greatest profit is the greatest good.

But human beings sit on the boards of those corporations, and I don't think they're all evil. I feel that there has been a failure of imagination, on our part, to provide a viable alternative to rapacious corporate greed.

Corporations back human rights because human beings sit on their boards and make policy. It's our job to imagine a way to minimize the expense of conscience. Or minimize the profits of amorality.

Economically, raping the environment is not cheaper than preserving it. The reason it's cheaper in our economy is because the government does not force corporations to pay for the resources they are consuming - resources which, I'd claim, belong to all of us.

I'm digressing - I meant to say, we're not up against a legion of evil. We're up against a legion of people bound to a system where their job is to maximize shareholder's profits, and the game is rigged so the best way to do that is to act in as self-interested a manner as possible.

They're not evil. They're just doing the best they can within the system they work in.
 
 
grant
18:40 / 10.11.04
Yeah, I know a few wealthy Republican business types and not one thinks of themselves as evil. They think of themselves as keeping afloat the only system that leads to human liberation and equality.

They think they're the good guys.
 
 
alas
18:44 / 10.11.04
The thing is, terrorism often WORKS, at least in the (relatively, in the universal span of things) short term (which can be a long time, humanly speaking). BUT it makes you evil. It kills your soul. And it kills the soul: I don't want to live in a world where everything comes down to killing and forcing. That world is soulless, for lack of a better term.

I don't want to live in terror. So I don't want to terrorize. So we seem to be stuck with the hardness of doing love in a big way, when I for one struggle to do it in a little way, every single day, with the people around me.

I think faith does come into play at the level that you have to believe that fighting a good fight is worth it, fighting in a way that doesn't attack your own integrity as a being is worth it, even if, even WHEN, you lose. Which you almost certainly will, in many of the measures we use to measure things like winning, losing.

But integrity! To live every day with as much integrity as you can muster! Damnit. Isn't there something there? I know it sounds foofy. But I know it's hard so it's not foofy.
 
 
Papess
19:38 / 10.11.04
iconoplast, this is cetainly true. While corporations "have no ass to kick and no soul to damn" (can't remember where I quoted this from), the soft belly of corps. would certainly be the humans that run it. They are the ones that have to be educated lovingly; as I am assuming those are the best weapons we have - love and education. But it is not like we haven't been. They are adults and aware of the human suffering that they cause in the name of democracy and free enterprise is reprehensible, even if they do choose to ignore it because, well hell...it's not their family, right?

This is evil to me. The evil force is the choices these people, ie: corporate heads, religious figures, statesmen...make in favour of money, power and influence at the expense of humanity and our enviorment, knowing full damn well that it is cruel and destructive to everyone else.

How can we educate minds like that? If they are already burning down millions of acres of rain forest and bombing innocent people, what makes us think that setting ourselves on fire or trying to fight them with love will have any effect on the situation other than that of a temporary band aid? And the most important change to be made, in the minds of those in power. We are assuming that they have similar humane, compassionate values as "us"...deep down somewhere.

One who has these values doesn't go about living their comfortable, jet-set, silver-spoon lifestyle while knowing about the autrocities that the corp. they are running is committing, and feel okay with it. If they had that kind of conscience, it wouldn't even be happening in the first place. We wuldn't be lied to and exploited in the first place.

Is it possible to create a change of heart in "human" beings with that much indifference and disregard for anyone but themselves that would be lasting Or does this damn, left/right, red/blue, me/you, us/them, etc...have to continue for an eternity and a day?

As I said before, I do not even see it on a small scale. We veiw kindness as weakness, and brutallity as strength, even here on Barbelith. (Speaking generally of course). We laugh at the pain of others and are damn grateful when it is not us. So much so, that we stand back and just watch others get slaughtered right before our eyes and don't do a damn thing about it in fear of being slaughtered ourself.

I know it is *possible* to fight with love, I would love to see it happen. But two things: I just think some people are so far gone down the path of self-righteous indignation, the only loving thing to do is destroy them....but who can make these judgements and ascertain the heart of the "enemy"? Number two: Next time someone pisses you off (rhetorical "you") here on Barbelith, do people think they can resist the urge to take the piss and actually fight with love, the percieved "ignorance" of the other poster, and provide them with compassion, education and nurturing?

Being able to fight with love indicates a certain amount of elightened awareness, and I for one would love to see it fostered. Here, and the in rest of the world.
 
 
Papess
19:41 / 10.11.04
They think they're the good guys.

Herein lies a problem. We think we are the good guys.

It is a well-taken point, Grant.
 
  

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