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Please Get Over The Invisibles

 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
 
PatrickMM
20:26 / 10.11.04
As I said before, I do not even see it on a small scale. We veiw kindness as weakness, and brutallity as strength, even here on Barbelith. (Speaking generally of course). We laugh at the pain of others and are damn grateful when it is not us.

To quote Morrissey, "It's easy to laugh and to hate, it takes strength to be gentle and kind." That's very true, and applies to so many areas of life. But, I think it applies to this debate too. Businessmen definitley don't think they're doing evil. Remember "Best Man Fall" from The Invisibles. This guy is the "enemy," but he's the same as any of us, with a family and little problems. The people who make the decision to bomb Iraqi civilians probably go home to happy families, and the same for the businessmen who pollute the environment.

I think everyone feels a disconnect between their job and their life, such that they don't take account for what the company did, because it's the company, it's not an individual. This is what puts companies in a sort of nebulous moral zone, no one is personally accountable for anything and if things get bad, just blame the person above you.

It's easy to preach moral responsibility within a corporation, but I know when I'm working, eventually I reach a point where I just want to leave and could care less about what I'm doing on the job.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
21:34 / 10.11.04
I wondered how many pages of this it would take before Morrissey turned up..

You can set your watch by him.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:00 / 10.11.04
That's assuming that your watch has not been stolen by the dextrous fingers of Morrissey's pet orang-utang, Clyde, who is his constant companion and fellow lover of the noble art of pugilism. Together, they travel from town to town, boxing, smoking and engaging in acts of petty but slapstick theft.
 
 
Francine I
23:01 / 10.11.04
Thanks, Fly Boy, for starting this off.

Wars have been fought brutally and efficiently by people who considered their acts to be acts of love. In fact, some of the kids in Iraq right now are convinced this is the case. Some of those folks in Iraq right now are oppressors through-and-through, however -- particularly those statesmen sitting comfortable inside the 'Green Zone' wearing safari hats and carrying pistols at their hips. Both sides adopt much of the same rhetoric and a similar stance, obviously. Saving the world from evil and all.

It is certainly worth noting, however, that those with the greater amount of privilege tend to do the greater amount of harm and tend to be less self-aware. I have no doubt that most of the movers and shakers there have drunken themselves sick on their own self-righteous rhetoric, but I don't think the U.S. establishment would've pursued it with so much determination had it not been a last ditch effort to retain U.S. hegemony. They didn't do it to stock up on crude oil, they did it because OPEC was poised to begin trading in euros, and the PNAC thinkers require a massive amount of economic control to maintain the military machinery their agenda relies on. The invasion of Iraq was an attempt to solidify the U.S. economy in preparation for more aggressive military action throughout the Middle East.

To be frank, I've noticed the most vocal proponents of these activities rarely defend their viewpoints with a sense of integrity in open debate. Propaganda and misdirection are their tools of choice, and this tells much as to their motivation, unconscious or no. They may think themselves the good guys in some small way -- slaughtering potential terrorists and toppling dictatorial regimes to protect what they see as the light tower of "freedom". But many of them know they are protecting their privilege first and foremost, for they cling to few pretensions regarding engendering democracy by force. If this wasn't the case, you'de see more staunch argument, more honesty, less maneuvering towards crushing dissent.

They believe good can only be wrought by their American hands, and so self interest is a huge part of their philosophy. PNAC takes this position very seriously. But this philosophy is not just wrong -- it's passionately selfish, and advances a posit that all means are justified by entirely hypothetical ends: 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians are justified by the mere potential of an eventual democracy in Iraq.

So this being a very rough sketch of our "they" in this sense, we have the core question -- are we trying to rescue these people from selfishness and somewhat voluntary delusion, or are we trying to stop them from bringing havoc?

I personally believe the greater good here is to prevent them from causing further harm. We cannot save them from themselves, but we can work to save others from them. Only when deprived of the rewards they receive and the means to prosecute their agenda are they likely to reconsider their position. Of course, my comments aren't geared towards your (assuming you're reading from the U.S. in this case) Republican neighbors, but they do apply. Whether or not they realize it, they are voting to protect their privilege -- not to "bring oppressed people freedom", not to "keep the world safe". It doesn't really matter what they say they believe, it matters what they do. Bush has convinced the U.S. and to an extent the governments of the Western world that our privilege is at stake, and many are motivated to defend that privilege. They are in the wrong, and when their actions result in the shedding of innocent blood, they should absolutely be stopped.

To get their fucking attention, and to tell them that we won't let this be profitable for them, to set the stage such that they will only further risk their privilege by pursuing this course of action, is I believe an admirable end. Our "us" is not a flawless, shining example of good, and our "them" is not pure evil -- but our "us" is more interested in saving innocent lives right now, and our "them" is more interested in protecting their abstract interests at the cost of innocent life. And it certainly does not seem that "they" will be convinced by words alone.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:40 / 11.11.04
Isn't Clyde doing a stretch in Pentonville these days, having got into an altercation with some geezer who was looking at Morrissey funny down the gym on one of their Sundays together ?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:58 / 11.11.04
Yep. Morrissey has written a charity single to raise money for his appeal.

Although you were an orung-utan,
They banged you up just like a man,
Clyde,
Juuuuuuuust like a man
.
 
 
Lord Morgue
05:50 / 11.11.04
Rubbish. Clyde took a crap in a cop car. You do that, you know you're gonna regret it before you're much older.

Love can be given with whips and chains, we just gotta show the world some tough love, Angelina Jolie-style.

Corperations and the people who run them not being inherently evil? Tell it to the Ogoni people of Nairobi, after one of their peaceful protests against Shell Oil running a pipeline through their village. They're easy enough to find- they're the ones with their heads in one pile, arms and legs in another, torsos over there. No-one with a soul orders that. And these are the same friendly trademarks that inhabit our homes and cities, running amok in the third world, unbound by effective government.
 
 
bjacques
08:56 / 11.11.04
I'd certainly *love* to do anything I can to make "business as usual" more expensive than the alternative. Terrorism is spectacular and invites repression, so leave that to the people who can't help playing cowboys and Indians. Leaderless micro-sabotage, diversion of resources, anonymous tips to Homeland Security or the Drug Squad about your fervently Republican neighbor--these are all things you can easily do without thinking about them.

Actually, you want to think a little, enough that these acts appear to be in the statistical noise and not traceable back to you.

Ideally, there should be no leaders--just good ideas finding fertile ground in the right brains.

The "Hundredth Monkeywrench!"
 
 
Sir Real
10:48 / 11.11.04
Hey, why don't we form losely organized "cells" of, I dunno, maybe 5 people for performing our acts of, well whatever those acts may happen to be.


Now if only we could think of a name....
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:02 / 11.11.04
Come to think of it, 'Every which way but loose' does actually sound a bit like the title of a forgotten Smiths record...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:24 / 11.11.04
Now if only we could think of a name....

Hmmm. Groups of five iconoclastic young sexies cockign a snook at society?

How about The Smiths?

Morrisey, Marr, Joyce, Rourke, and Clyde.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:35 / 11.11.04
Yeah, but you're still talking about a revolutionary cadre - top down Smithsism. I athink about John Major's final days in power, when it seemed that everything in the world was just taking the piss. There was the Khyber Hat Incident, and the immortal Great British Racing Car Like The Economy fiasco (alas, no wheels on the car when he drew the curtain).

I suppose it's possible those things were planned, but I have to say I hope they 'just happened'. That would suggest a far more democratic - or 'societal' - rejection.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:44 / 11.11.04
Have you ever cocked a snook?
 
 
alas
11:56 / 11.11.04
or snooked a .. .
 
 
alas
12:09 / 11.11.04
yes, I am basically a twelve year old.
 
 
Sir Real
12:20 / 11.11.04
I suppose it's possible those things were planned, but I have to say I hope they 'just happened'. That would suggest a far more democratic - or 'societal' - rejection.

Yessss, that's exactly what we want them to think.
 
 
iconoplast
18:01 / 12.11.04
I'd certainly *love* to do anything I can to make "business as usual" more expensive than the alternative. Terrorism is spectacular and invites repression, so leave that to the people who can't help playing cowboys and Indians. Leaderless micro-sabotage, diversion of resources, anonymous tips to Homeland Security or the Drug Squad about your fervently Republican neighbor--these are all things you can easily do without thinking about them.

This is actually the opposite of what I had in mind. I was thinking about economic policies designed to minimize the cost of conscience. Ideally, the policies would make conscience cheaper than its lack.

But, more generally - my fervently Republican neighbor does not deserve micro-sabotage. He (I'm thinking of a specific neighbor, here) has as much a right to vote as I do.

I'm really trying, these days, to think carefully about a way of moving forwards, towards a more progressive nation, without sacrificing along the way the differences that make progressivism worthwhile. Dig? Like, the harassment of people who think differently than I do? I'll leave that one alone, since I like believing that in the government I someday hope to elect, dissent will be a valued national resource.

So my problem with terrorism isn't just that it's spectacular and invites repercussion, or even that it's fucking horrific and goes so awry so often. But that depriving people of their voice, of their right to vote, or just harassing them for exercising their rights - that's not the kind of action that furthers any cause I'm willing to identify myself with.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:15 / 13.11.04
if the liberal voices in America want to be able to engage in any kind of constructive dialogue with the conservative voices then the problem is not how best to demonize the President that a majority of the country voted for.

That is a concession because the man is a demon. Constructive dialogue-- where is that going to get you? Is it going to win over people who believe that a war on terror could possibly exist? Is it going to win voters who believe that abortion should be outlawed for moral reasons and completely forget that hundreds of orphanages have been closed since abortion was allowed? Constructive dialogue has failed to work. In effect your country has voted for its empire because it hasn't known the detrimental effects of that type of imperialism on its own citizens and you can't win people over to a liberal agenda when they're set on ruling the world.

Hanh's a Buddhist monk from Vietnam writing in the 1960s... at the same time his colleagues were setting themselves on fire as a demonstration of what napalm was doing to their society. And they were doing that with love, yes.

There's a difference between love and desperation. People do not set themselves on fire because they're in love. To me that seems like an attempt to mythologise an action. Love might be the justification when you can't face the reality of your desperation though.

Hanh had honour, I don't doubt that and compassion and I respect that but we should be facing an administration like the one in the White House with Marx in our hands. There shouldn't be any love or sentimentality lost in the abyss between anyone with a left wing bone in their body and a fascist government. At this point in time the only thing worth looking at is what's really there and going with your instinctive response to it. You shouldn't be thinking about four years time unless you're thinking about how to ensure everyone gets their vote. If you want to protest, don't sacrifice your life so you can never fight again, don't sacrifice your revulsion to talk to evangelists who vote without reason, sacrifice your liberty and express your desperation as you can as a Westerner. The point being that none of us are monks, we don't dedicate our time to meditation and deep thought, American liberals need to behave in a way that sends a message that everyone in our world immediately understands. And we live in a world that doesn't even understand suicide bombers. Your opposition won't get the compassion you send to them because as grant pointed out, the Republicans also know that they're right, so they can smile patronisingly at compassion and label you as a bleeding heart. And you will be one because liberal America hasn't stepped up to fight, the people who voted for Kerry were voting against Bush not voting for reason and that's a sad state of affairs, it also indicates that there's a lot more room.

Love is HARD. It's not foofy. Sentimentalism is foofy.

I totally disagree with that, love is foofy, it's the doubt that accompanies it that's hard.
 
 
Keith
17:23 / 13.11.04
I was going to post an invective laden reply until I realised this thread wasn't about "The Invincibles". My bad...
 
 
Papess
18:17 / 13.11.04
There's a difference between love and desperation.

Indeed, Anna.


People do not set themselves on fire because they're in love.

Apparently, they do.
 
 
Francine I
00:37 / 14.11.04
"I'm really trying, these days, to think carefully about a way of moving forwards, towards a more progressive nation, without sacrificing along the way the differences that make progressivism worthwhile. Dig? Like, the harassment of people who think differently than I do? I'll leave that one alone, since I like believing that in the government I someday hope to elect, dissent will be a valued national resource."

I can respect that stance, but I might qualify with a caveat: that we are on a sliding scale here where innocent lives and liberties do indeed hang in the balance. I certainly do not want to subvert the right to vote of my Republican neighbor. However, I don't want my Republican neighbor to erode my liberties through more convential and acceptable means until I eventually lose the right to vote myself ; de facto or in writ. While it might seem fair to mark my position here as somewhat extremist, or assuming of a worst-case scenario, I do not believe this is necessarily the case at all. I think the U.S. is at the top of a slippery slope, and those who say otherwise are too optimistic.

However, I'd like to suggest that your preferred means to the end might be executable under a certain circumstance -- a mobilized, massive political movement dedicated to "the cause". It would probably have to involve considerably sized public protest with a very clear message and, quite importantly, a very concise delivery. And then we .. trust the media to deliver that message in the spirit it in which it was originally submitted.

However, we still have to ask ourselves, assuming the best ; How rapidly will this agenda advance? How long does it take such civil movements to make progress? How much time will they require to curtail these liberties, and how many innocent lives will be lost while we wait for the system to move it's creaky wheels?
 
 
Francine I
00:47 / 14.11.04
Put in a moderation request to fix an error or so and complete the above post, as it met with an untimely delivery. My pinky.
 
 
LVX23
02:55 / 14.11.04
Who is this Grant Morrisey guy anyway?
 
  

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