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We3 #1

 
  

Page: 12(3)45678

 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:52 / 27.08.04
And who so plays to the crowd.

Is there any evidence that GM takes any real interest in the fannish study of his work? I assume he has a definite idea of the kind of effect he wants to create -- eg. on a grand scale, forming a hypersigil; in a general way, infecting others with his ideas; in terms of the medium, exploring new ways of storytelling or representing heroism -- but I wasn't aware that he would, for instance, read this kind of discussion.

GUD DOG

My favourite line in a comic for some time! My girlfriend has indulgently put up with me going around saying in a naive-inquisitive tone "IS GUD DOG?" for the last 24 hrs.

One remarkable thing about this page is that it makes teen-style txt spk, which I previously experienced as a horrible lazy practice and symptom of sloppy English, seem endearing. Most people on the average chatroom "talk"/write as well as Bandit.

NB. another point for discussion -- does he really "answer to Bandit"? He actually responds to "1", whether from his keepers or Tinker. When and how do the (brilliant: each both authentically Disney-animal-doc and suggesting a type of social renegade) names come into it?

Anyway I really assumed that the talk chips are giving voice to what the animals were already thinking, rather than encouraging them to a higher level. "Hungry" is not beyond the average cat, and "Grass. Eat. Now. Eat" seems a reasonable guess at what a rabbit might be thinking.

Bandit shows more ability and aptitude for learning from what he hears than the others -- which is entirely appropriate I think, given that dogs readily learn the sounds of human commands and ascribe a meaning to them, whereas most cats only respond to their name (or the basic sound of their name being called...probably more tone of voice than the word) and I would think a rabbit would be unlikely even to reach that level. Bandit alone seems to be trying to process what the humans are talking about, even when they're not talking to him (dee-comm-ish-ond).

In fact, it could be argued that they're more intellectually limited than you might expect from trained killing machines. To handle the first mission would require more planning, discipline and control -- higher levels of awareness and intelligence -- than their speech patterns and by extension thought patterns seem to suggest.

Tinker is not an average cat. She (? spitting specifically about MMMEN gives that impression perhaps) is, I think, the animal we're seeing on the first few pages, as the page of them leaving the building, heading for the truck shows her (medium-sized) in the middle, with the red optics rather than blue or yellow. Pirate and Bandit are presumably called up to the right room (335?) by her. Your average cat is not going to stake out its prey, then call in a dog and a rabbit for back-up. Neither is your average cat going to troop out obediently when the job's done: if Tinker had a normal cat intelligence and attitude she'd be scooting off to explore on her own terms, doing a bit of hunting and coming back when she's ready. Which, interestingly, is exactly the tendency she's showing on the final pages.

So are the animal weapons being controlled or prompted on their missions? They are not conforming to normal animal behaviour, although they seem to revert to it at the end when they're out of the compound and back to nature. Are they animals of an average intelligence, or souped-up superbeasts?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:01 / 27.08.04
900, He's asking whether Washington is a "gud" guy. Not whether God is a dog

No, I think he's checking for reassurance, in a typical doggy manner -- needing it confirmed by humans.

"Good dog. GOOD dog."

Bandit: 'Good dog.' Am I a good dog?

Similarly, he tries to work out what decomissioned means -- human speech having an importance and interest to him while the other two animals seem to care far less about what's being said to them, and just voice their own selfish thoughts -- and on the previous page keeps checking because he hasn't had an answer to his question.

"And how are YOU today?"

Bandit: I'm good. Are you good too, Mr Washington? [no answer: Bandit is troubled, keeps asking] Are you [good] too?

The 'decommissioned' thing, now I think about it, does raise further questions.

The officer never said "decommissioned". He said "decommissioning". So Bandit has been parsing the word into the past sense. "? Word ?" is clearly him trying to process something he's never heard before. It's not in his vocabulary store. Which kind of suggests that his dog-mind is being supplemented/supported by a translation program with a word-bank that he's by now able to update and improve. But it's odd that Bandit wouldn't repeat the word he actually heard, but its past participle.
 
 
Spaniel
09:19 / 27.08.04
Hmm, I'm pretty sure that much of the behaviour exhibited by the animals could not be described simply as vocal expressions of animal behaviour. As far as I'm aware, dogs, cats and rabbits aren't good at using concepts.

Buuuut, I think it's more important to point out that at a certain level of scrutiny the entire concept is likely to fall down. Morrison is only trying to create a believeable fictional space, and believeable fictional spaces are prone to the odd minor inconsistency.
 
 
Spaniel
09:28 / 27.08.04
Kovacs, I agree on the reassurance thing. I always agreed on the reassurance thing, I'm just taking the idea a little further.

I am assuming, however, that the animals are supposed to have heightened intelligence.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:43 / 27.08.04
I'm certainly not trying to pull Morrison's world apart. As I think I said above, I regard it as a tribute that I (and others) want to examine this little book in such detail.

And what else are discussion boards for. We3 might not all add up but it's fun trying to work it through.

I would agree that the animals aren't behaving like normal animals in the first mission, but their speech/thought patterns don't really seem to suggest a higher intelligence. Also, they do seem to behave differently in the last scene from the first. Which makes me ask whether they're being controlled, guided or prompted to some extent when they're at work in the first sequence.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:21 / 27.08.04
Unlike the Save thing, I do feel the questions about T,P and B's minds, and who's really in charge, are going to be answered.

Quite how I'm not sure, but hey, y'know, I just clean the toilets round here.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
11:50 / 27.08.04
We3 is kind of a pro-ctive response to Mozzer's ongoing animal rights concerns. In the last issue of his Animal Man run he expressed concern over his soapbox venting hence WE3 comes full circle and seems like a chance to get a lot of animal-on-human violence off his chest.

Loving the whole insectoid body armour, and the way the animals bowl the humans over cartoon style.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:28 / 27.08.04
>> SAVE : CANCEL :: preservation : negation. Will the she SAVE the beastie-borgs or CANCEL their very existence? DO YOU SEE?!?

Yep, and last night while giving it another read, I also realized, as I think kovacs said, that she may be lingering on the word SAVE, while then grasping (and then releasing) the needles which will kill 'em, to send a message to them (knowing that they're smart and watching) that now is the time for them to bust out if they want to SAVE themselves.

So I'm over it now, even though I feel the mechanics of it are sightly vague. I'm glad we're moved on to discuss the many, many other fascinating aspects of the book.

And I would argue that it's not just Grant and Alan Moore who get critiqued on points that are unclear, that happens anytime (intelligent) people read a comic or read a book or see a movie where something isn't clear, unless the book/comic/movie is so clearly brainless that it doesn't even matter. But Grant & Alan tend to have the most layers and substance overall, certainly.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:40 / 27.08.04
>> I know this comes accross as unthinkable to all of us, but maybe the scene is ambiguous now because it's going to be explained later? I mean, it's a three issue story. Not every bloody detail about everything has to be explained in the first issue.

Very true. There may be a line in #2 where she says something that makes it more clear.

And kovacs, I thought about the fact that they're at the wrong angle to see the computer screen too, so maybe that kills our 'she's showing them the word SAVE to give them the hint to break free at that moment' idea.

OK, now I'm really done with this. Promise.

I'll weigh in with my "Gud Dog" ideas later...

I just need to say how much I love the cat's tail exoskeleton thing - it both freaks me out cause it looks so thick, unwieldy and unnecessary (in contrast to the rest of the animals' armor designs which look so cool) and makes me smile cause it's so bizarre.

I love how the cat is the stereotypical selfish grumpy cat ("Men st!nkk, boss st!inks...hungry"). It's like the cat is the Id, the Dog is the Ego, and the Rabbit is the Superego. But the cat is the one who's wise enough to realize they now have no place to call home anymore and gives up on the futile search for one...
 
 
FinderWolf
13:52 / 27.08.04
>> No, I think he's checking for reassurance, in a typical doggy manner -- needing it confirmed by humans.

I got (from what I perceived to be a look on the dog's face, may be total projection on my part) that the dog was a little offended, maybe cringing a bit at the guy's condescension. Or maybe something in Bandit senses this guy's creepiness/corruption, such that he's questioning what a "good dog" reassurance means coming from a politican.

I did like the fact that the politician is smart enough to say "I see three pissed off animals -- what the fuck was wrong with you, giving killing machine-animals the ability to TALK!?!?" You get the sense that he feels bad for the animals on some level and regrets what has been done to them.

And yeah, the shot where we see inside the truck is amazing. Esp. the loft-like seats hanging from the cieling - beautiful layout & design, tre cool by Quitely.

No one's commented on subject ** 4 **, ominously mentioned by one of the doctors or politicans. Will this be like the evil KARR to the benevolent KITT? (sorry for the Knight Rider reference) Five bucks says model no. 4 gets sent after them in the next few issues, and that no. 4 is some freaky, evil shit.

Oh, now I can also reveal my ignorance - what does "0" mean when the cat says stuff like "1 says, 1 know 0"? It's a zero, right? So is the cat saying the dog knows nothing [about the situation they're in now], sort of scoffing at the dog?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:24 / 27.08.04
Oh, now I can also reveal my ignorance - what does "0" mean when the cat says stuff like "1 says, 1 know 0"? It's a zero, right? So is the cat saying the dog knows nothing [about the situation they're in now], sort of scoffing at the dog?

That's how I took it.


Tinker: Bandit's saying nothing. Bandit KNOWS nothing!

Not sure who s/he is calling "boss" though. "No stinnk" presumably refers to being outside.

Tinker's tail is kind of odd, armadillo-like...considering how much cats hate anything touching their tail, how they use it to signal emotional response ("up" in greeting, for instance) and presumably also for balance, it's surprising that they've given hir such a chunky, thick and short armor-appendage. You would have thought a cat would need more flexibility there, for various reasons.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:29 / 27.08.04
The cover is also cool in that it's backstory...Bandit looks so innocent, unspoiled & happy there...and you feel bad for the owners, who miss and love their dog, who has been whisked away by the US Gov't...

It also occurred to me that the Mature Readers advisory on the cover is the smallest I've ever seen on a comic, it would seem to me. You barely notice it, if you notice it all.
 
 
Spaniel
14:31 / 27.08.04
Kovacs, I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't scrutinze Morrison's work, that would be absurd, just that elements of WE3 are almost certainly likely to cave in on careful inspection.

For example:

...Which makes me ask whether they're being controlled, guided or prompted to some extent when they're at work in the first sequence.

Where you see plot clues, I see trivial (perhaps non-existent, but that's another conversation) inconsistencies.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:31 / 27.08.04
The rabbit seems to want the dog to be the leader once they're free, while the cat has other plans and don't take orders from no one! ... (typical cat)

The beauty of Quitely's forest in the final panel is undercut by the gov't helicopters approaching in the distance...it's a great image, made even better by the cat's heartbreaking line.
 
 
Spaniel
14:33 / 27.08.04
That's how I read 0, too.

Nice to see a bit of tension between the cat and the dog.

So, what do we reckon 4 is? A gerbil?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
14:42 / 27.08.04
I reckon it's Mastiffs as mentioned in the book.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:53 / 27.08.04
I didn't know what a mastiff was, I had to look it up. So I found a pic on a website and the following description:

>> The Mastiff is a giant-breed dog with a long history. Most people are first attracted to this breed by its massiveness, but do not realize that with a large dog may come large problems. This homepage will attempt to portray the breed in an honest and accurate way to help potential owners to evaluate the suitability of a mastiff for their situation. A MASTIFF IS NOT FOR EVERYONE! They are powerful dogs and therefore need training. They tend to drool and snore loudly. Like any large breed, they are prone to joint problems such as hip dysplasia. However, if you can get past it all, Mastiffs are a joy to own.
 
 
Spaniel
15:07 / 27.08.04
Mastiffs? I don't have the issue in front of me so I can't comment. Sounds about right though.

Personally, I'd like to see some sort of flying monstrosity.
 
 
Warewullf
15:15 / 27.08.04
Oh god. I just read this and welled up a bit while reading "Gud dog?"

I'm gonna be in tears by the end...
 
 
Simplist
15:29 / 27.08.04
The cover is also cool in that it's backstory...Bandit looks so innocent, unspoiled & happy there...and you feel bad for the owners, who miss and love their dog, who has been whisked away by the US Gov't...

I suspect those owners will see Bandit again before the end of the story; after all, where else could "home" be? This may be headed for a tearjerker of a finish...
 
 
Spaniel
15:32 / 27.08.04
...but I wasn't aware that he would, for instance, read this kind of discussion.

He certainly has in the past (Invisi-era), but I'm not sure if he pays The 'Lith much mind these days.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
16:24 / 27.08.04
Oh man, has anyone read Timoleon Violeta Come Home? If George has we could be in a fucking world of everlasting hurt.

Seriously, saddest book of the 21st Century, and it's, natch, about a dog finding its way home.
 
 
Triplets
16:36 / 27.08.04
The animals were controlled during the mission. The two guys suspended from the ceiling-seats in the van. From my very first look it seemed clear that those two - geeky, glasses, no visible weapons, armour or insignia - were the intelligence and logistics handlers for the We3. They'd be the ones jacking into the animal's headspace during the mission and applying artificial behaviour patterns, intel updates, and specific action prompting as the mission required as well as calming and debriefing the critters after they got back [due to their combat high].

Also, consider that Roseanne says something about restraints to Washington, I thought she meant beheavioural restraints more than anything else.
 
 
Spaniel
16:43 / 27.08.04
Sdifficult discussing a comic you don't have to hand.

I take your point, Daddy. Wasn't a joystick also featured at one point?
 
 
FinderWolf
16:44 / 27.08.04
I agree with Triplets Rule - the animals were the operatives but the people in the van were feeding them info., layouts of the building, commands, etc.

I love the fiber-optic glowy things the animals have.
 
 
Spaniel
16:48 / 27.08.04
Well, on the restraints issue, wasn't some kind of Jurassic Park type control substance mentioned. You know, some kind of chemical dependence: without it they die.

Cue poor starving animals.

Oh God, I'm welling up already.

Anyone seen that film with the talking Dolphin? Bloody traumatised me as a kid.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:16 / 27.08.04
I don't even know what yr talking about.

And if one fucker mentions hyper-sigils again in relation to this comic, I will scream.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:22 / 27.08.04
There wasn't any mention of a substance they're addicted to in order to control them. I think you're dreaming this. But I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if I am, I just don't think I'm wrong in this case.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:50 / 27.08.04
oh, and calm down, Varriage. It's not worth feeling like you might scream.
 
 
Spaniel
17:59 / 27.08.04
I think "medicine" might have been mentioned in the context of control mechanisms. I'll check when I get home.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:00 / 27.08.04
SPOILER
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I just read that there's a horrific rabbit-slaughter sequence opening issue #2
 
 
FinderWolf
19:02 / 27.08.04
where did you read that, kovacs?

And does the rabbit do the slaughtering, or get slaughtered?

Also, you might want to give some spoiler warnings/space before you discuss this point further....
 
 
Unicornius
19:03 / 27.08.04
And I just read that #2 will be out in... October 27!!! Acording to DC'a web site.
Rats! (pun intended, especially if you read the exceerpt for #2)
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:17 / 27.08.04
rabbit

I did consider a spoiler warning, but then I read it in an online interview so it must be pretty public knowledge.


OK WE3 #2 SPOILERS BELOW
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GUD
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DUG
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There are hardly any words in it, so for a change I don't have much to say about what it all means. No big symbolic structures here. It's mostly from the perspective of animals. Otherwise, the original idea grew up out of a wish to do more with the surgically-augmented angry critters in The Filth, it then got married to a nice New Scientist article about remote-controlled rats being used for military purposes, and gave birth to my lifelong wish to create a classic animal story in the 'Incredible Journey', 'Watership Down' mold but with the added ingredient of trademark Quitely hardcore graphic ultraviolence. The rabbit slaughter sequence which opens the second issue takes the churning of stomachs to new queasy heights.

PopImage interview http://www.popimage.com/content/grant20046.html

BONUS! aww check out Tinker on the cover of #2
http://www.forbidden-planet.co.uk/acatalog/WE3__2.html
 
 
Billuccho!
20:32 / 27.08.04
Ahh, but is the rabbit *our* rabbit? Could just be, y'know, a rabbit.

So I finally picked this damn issue up, trying oh-so-hard to stay away from the discussion here because of my fear of spoilers, and now I must say that, yes, I flat out blew up. A wonderful visually dense comic. Mmm mmm mmm. The six-page security cam sequence was a bit confusing, I'll admit, but you gents seem to have helped clear that bit up. I do have a foreboding sense of heartbreak, though. A terrific comic, it was. And I expect We4 to show up in the next ish, maybe at the very end. Then we'll get a nice big cyborg-animal-death-machine fight. A shame the book's bi-monthly. September could be my first Morrison-less month since his NXM run started. Unless I snag a nice Doom Patrol trade.

We3 is my new mistress.
 
  

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