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We3 #1

 
  

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Haus of Mystery
17:35 / 04.09.04
Is that what manga is then?
 
 
The Falcon
11:46 / 05.09.04
I don't see Liefeld or McFarlane being influenced by the Orient in much ways. I only see Jim Lee being so inasmuch as it's his ethnic origin.

Madureira maybe, but I am failing to see the bridge here.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:46 / 05.09.04
Manga comics (without wishing to generalise)tend to have a fairly dynamic, playful approach to storytelling, and a coherence of character design that is sorely lacking from the average Image comic.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:57 / 05.09.04
Well, Bjork, I thought the "debate" was still going, so I just continued grouching. And, initially anyway, I was responding to yr post. I think I might've got a bit carried away, however, but having said that, this thread definitely distills one of my Barbe-peeves: the idea that because Grant Morrison's a bit weird and deep, right?", that argument can be used to justify any reading of the text whatsoever.

And, y'know, disagreeing with yr opinions doesn't make someone a backslapping arsehole.

I have commented on other stuff, though, but I've yet to find something truly meaty theme-wise that I want to get stuck into. For me, the exciting things about We3 are it's density, spectacle, experimentation with the form and the fact that it's a rollicking good read.

And I don't believe you're really Bjork.
 
 
Michelle Gale
16:23 / 05.09.04
I don't see Liefeld or McFarlane being influenced by the Orient in much ways

I dunno I think Liefield art is kind of "oriental" or whatever. With Liefields work proportion and consistancy is not something that seems to get in the way of makeing something dramatic, BIG and "entertaining", In terms of the look of it i give you its not very Japanese/Chinese. That and Shatterstars helmet/mask thing is a direct copy of that super computer womans mask thing in Masamune Shirows "Black Magic" (god im a geek), which I think was quite obscure during the eighties, so he probably knows his manga.

McFarlane's art is similarly but not quite as overtly is stylised and inconsistent but your right not very Japanese/Chinese.

Having said that We3 is heck of a lot better than that image shite, and is doing something genuinly new, its just not the first "Western Manga". god im a PEDANT
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:34 / 05.09.04
the idea that because Grant Morrison's a bit weird and deep, right?", that argument can be used to justify any reading of the text whatsoever.


The idea that Morrison is weird and deep could be considered a myth. If The Invisibles is his big personal project and expression of what's important to him in content and style, that's an important plank in the argument that his work is deep and complex, but on the other side:

Really and Truly, supposedly written in one day on Ecstasy, and anyway about as nuanced as the average Saturday morning kids' cartoon on fastforward, with the TV upside down.

Big Dave, roaringly funny but with no occult hints about the Moonchild or the assassination-conspiracy concealed in the scenes about Princess Diana.

Zenith, the usual "dark gods" as villains and a witty British reworking of the Crisis, but pretty much on one level as a superhero adventure.

JLA, intelligent widescreen disaster-movie styling but again, only needs rereading to make sense of plot twists, not to discover codes in the costume colours or messages in the margin.

St Swithin's Day, touching and quintessentially indie-English story, offering its all to you at a single glance.

I could go on... Dare, Steed and Mrs Peel, Gothic. Morrison has written a lot of comic books that simply are what they seem, and are no worse for it.

re. manga

I thought Miller would be the obvious name in terms of American writer/artists picking up on Japanese comic storytelling?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
22:07 / 06.09.04
Just wanted to hop in to shift to the more important matter at hand, post-interview:

THE RABBIT'S NAME IS PIRATE!

I am crying already.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:19 / 06.09.04
I thought Pirate was common knowledge.
 
 
Ganesh
23:40 / 06.09.04
So they're all named after varieties of thief/marauder/ne'erdoell?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
07:26 / 07.09.04
Pirates kill ninjas.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:40 / 07.09.04
me on page 3 (smug)

does he really "answer to Bandit"? He actually responds to "1", whether from his keepers or Tinker. When and how do the (brilliant: each both authentically Disney-animal-doc and suggesting a type of social renegade) names come into it?


answering my own question -- clearly they come into it on the covers, because that's what the families called them.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:24 / 09.09.04
Animals fight back! This story, from CNN.com (seriously,
no joke) shows that dogs might be able to reason enough to attack someone with a weapon who is about to harm their loved ones. Either that or some creative flailing about happened. But I thought this was very We3 appropriate...

>> Pup shoots man, saves litter mates

Thursday, September 9, 2004
Posted: 11:15 AM EDT (1515 GMT)

PENSACOLA, Florida (AP) -- Nice shootin', Rex!

A man who tried to shoot seven puppies was shot himself when one of the dogs put its paw on the revolver's trigger.

Jerry Allen Bradford, 37, was charged with felony animal cruelty, the Escambia County Sheriff's Office said Wednesday. He was being treated at a hospital for a gunshot wound to his wrist.

Bradford said he decided to shoot the 3-month-old shepherd-mix dogs in the head because he couldn't find them a home, according to the sheriff's office.

On Monday, Bradford was holding two puppies -- one in his arms and another in his left hand -- when the dog in his hand wiggled and put its paw on the trigger of the .38-caliber revolver. The gun then discharged, the sheriff's report said.

Deputies found three of the puppies in a shallow grave outside Bradford's home, said sheriff's Sgt. Ted Roy.

The other four appeared to be in good health and were taken by Escambia County Animal Control, which planned to make them available for adoption.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
20:23 / 09.09.04
From Kovacs - "Zenith, the usual "dark gods" as villains and a witty British reworking of the Crisis, but pretty much on one level as a superhero adventure."

Umm...and a re-imagining of British pop culture from the last 40 years with the inclusion of superheroes; an attempt to marry the fictional and 'real' world; a coherent and brilliantly mapped fictional world; a blending of Lovecraftian mythos, Nietzschean uber-theory, and british comics of all genre; a classic 'anti-hero' in the form of a pop star; robot Archie riding a fucking dinosaur... all in five page installments in a weekly comic available in your newsagent.

How many levels do you want?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:10 / 10.09.04
Umm...and a re-imagining of British pop culture from the last 40 years with the inclusion of superheroes; an attempt to marry the fictional and 'real' world; a coherent and brilliantly mapped fictional world;

These are all the same thing.

Re-imagining British culture with the inclusion of superheroes is marrying fiction and reality -- and it's that process that creates a coherent fictional world.

I wouldn't go too far with this one either as the pre-1980s material in Zenith is very skimpy. There were a couple of WW2 interludes and the 1950s/1960s were covered in extremely brief (sometimes one panel) flashbacks.

Just because Zenith gets drunk at the Limelight club and Archie shags Britney Spears doesn't mean this is an especially ambitious world-building... the references to contemporary pop culture are really just name-dropping, semi-satirical references.

So, you've got a single point here, that Morrison sketches an interesting historical background for his 1980s-1990s adventure -- a history that occasionally comes back to haunt the present. That's really the least I'd expect from a decent superhero narrative. As Morrison is working within a new "Zenith universe" here he has to create a past for his characters, because obviously there isn't the pre-existing background he had when he inherited the DCU heroes. It's satisfying but I wouldn't call it another "level" that he gives some background to the present-day story.

a blending of Lovecraftian mythos, Nietzschean uber-theory,

I wouldn't push this one... I don't think the Nietzchean references in here are especially profound. Having a genetically-created Nazi called Masterman and his British counterparts is about the limit of it, unless you can correct me.

I don't really know Lovecraft but again, if the use of that mythos goes beyond the naming and representation of the Dark Gods, please correct me here too.


and british comics of all genre;


I think this was Morrison's great achievement, certainly.

a classic 'anti-hero' in the form of a pop star; robot Archie riding a fucking dinosaur...

Yes, these are some of the aspects that make Zenith a fantastic comic, but I don't think they add "depth" or "levels". They contribute to it being a pop culture classic and provide some of its best moments -- but I might as well say "Penny Moon wearing a Fall badge", "a pious Christian soldier called Hotspur", "Peyne regressing from old age to embryo" make the story deeper and more complex. I would say these are just neat, memorable ideas.

Please don't get me wrong because I love the whole Zenith saga (up to Phase IV, where it loses steam, anyway) but I don't think we have to exaggerate its complexity or multiple meanings to celebrate it. As you say, it's an episodic story in a weekly comic, and it's one of the best things Morrison has ever done, but why can't we praise it as an intelligent, rewarding superhero story without having to make out that it has the layered, half-hidden meanings of Ulysses? Why does a superhero story have to be "deep" or contain ideas that aren't immediately obvious to be a great superhero story?
 
 
The Natural Way
10:58 / 10.09.04
No. Zenith doesn't lose steam by IV. Absolute horse-pucky.

IV is the best part of the whole thing. Fucking jaw dropping. You must've been some smarty-pantsed, cynical 14 yr old not to get the shivers all over that one.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:03 / 10.09.04
Oh good. Somebody has bottled talking about a comic and started insulting people instead. That so rarely happens.

Kids, you need to be able to discuss the work, not what is clearly wrong with the person who didn't react to it the way you did. Otherwise you add nothing except a probability of flame wars.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:04 / 10.09.04
Kovacs, I was saying that Zenith is a multi-layered and rich superhero story, and was addressing the fact that you were seperating the Invisibles (a 'complex', 'deep' work) from almost everything else morrison has written. Zenith contains the seeds of a number of ideas that recur continually in his canon of work. Listing it alongside Big Dave as a straightforward story just seemed to do it injustice is all. I'm not someone who feels the need to dissect the 'greater' meaning behind the work, but credit where credit's due, Zenith does surpass simple super-storytelling on most levels IMHO.

Haus, is there any way you could find a smiley icon in the form of a hand smacking the back of a pair of legs?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:10 / 10.09.04
Just imagine the time I could save if I did...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:07 / 10.09.04
Kovacs, I was saying that Zenith is a multi-layered and rich superhero story, and was addressing the fact that you were seperating the Invisibles (a 'complex', 'deep' work) from almost everything else morrison has written.

Actually I just didn't provide a list of the "other side of Morrison", which would include not just The Invisibles but Arkham Asylum, Bible John, Kid Eternity and Animal Man.

Yes, the Invisibles is at one extreme perhaps, with Really and Truly and Big Dave at the other. Animal Man is a difficult beast as it's a superhero story that starts to eat its own tail; Doom Patrol is also a hard one to classify.

But given that spectrum, I'm surprised you wouldn't place Zenith on the side that can be defined broadly as "less depth and complexity, less pretension, less need for analysis."

Check out The Bomb site
for the last issue of The Invisibles.

If you look REEEEALLLLY closely at the cover, in the rightmost section, there are teeny words faintly written on the two blades of grass that point to Barbelith. They read, as far as I can make out: "bowling ball" "it's a cat on a" Reverse the order and you get "It's a cat on a bowling ball."

I really don't think Zenith is the same kind of comic.

Perhaps you need to get your head around the fact that I'm not dissing Zenith in the slightest by saying this. (I don't have much time for Really and Truly, but I think Big Dave is one of GM's great moments too.)

My main point is that we don't have to find hidden meanings in popular art for it to be rich and complex and rewarding. That there isn't a theological debate in We3 #1 doesn't mean it's less worthwhile. That Zenith Phase I doesn't require or support as many annotations as The Invisibles Book 3 doesn't mean Zenith is "simple-minded" or "inferior". To be honest it makes me admire Morrison all the more that he can write straight whizz-bang, tearjerking, mindblowing, adrenaline-rush stories that are meant to be engaged with and experienced as a roller-coaster ride as well as material that repays you for poring over each frame.

As for Phase IV. I would be interested to know why you liked it, and I'd be entirely willing to debate it: I was 23 or so when I read it for the first time, not 14. If you think it's worth a new thread, then like cheerleaders say in the flicks, bring it.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:10 / 10.09.04
Maybe a separate Zenith thread for those who want to discuss it?

I wish I could discuss it but I've never read it, as the paperbacks are sitting in some damn warehouse because of legal problems...
 
 
The Natural Way
18:41 / 12.09.04
I think it could of had something to do with being 23 and not 14, then.

For me? It was the first time I'd encountered 5D super-baddies, the terrifying, shocking revelation "we are, we were, we shall be...the Lloigor!" (I always bring that one up!), that dreadful city at the end of time, the death of the main protagonist and that incredible, fist-punching-the-air, head bending moment when you realise......

Aaaah, baby universes....

And, like all Zenith stuff, it was populated by the coolest looking super-heroes ever.

Sorry, Kove, this one's not up for debate, I just love it. And, like Macgyver says, it contains the seeds of so much of the invisibles (I'd be quite willing to debate that one).

One more thing (Mac's a friend so I feel confident saying this) - Macgyver doesn't need any convincing that fun doesn't have to equal 5D squids with beards, he just thought yr assessment of Zenith was incomplete. It didn't tell the whole story.



Still off topic! Naughtice!
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:27 / 12.09.04
Sorry Varriage it is up for debate and I'm going to have to start a thread about it just as soon as I get a few hours to marshall my thoughts and read Phase IV again
 
 
FinderWolf
13:07 / 18.10.04
Back to We3 --

I was just re-re-reading We3 #1 and in addition to all the other things we've listed about how great it is, I'd just like to declare that in the first pages, Frank Quitely draws the most amazing sneakers/running shoes I've ever seen.

That is all.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
06:25 / 19.10.04
FQ has a knack for drawing clothing that you'd want to wear (well, maybe not Emma's X top but...).
It reminds me of the Tank Girl clothing designs, steeped in reality but just outré enough to be desirable (even to a boy).
The Bite Club covers he's done recently have been dripping in "cool clothes". Not many artists bother with that level of detail (it's not really that deep is it though, I mean, it's what they're wearing for chrissakes!).
Usually other artists (of the Jim Lee variety) will just make "normal" clothing shapes around the heroes big busty shape as opposed to formulating an outfit that would hang and fit as regular clothing would.

I've said it before... after looking at FQ's work I always start thinking people in the street look like his character designs, much more so than any other artist around today. He seems to capture people a bit too well.
 
 
_Boboss
11:10 / 19.10.04
dear barbelith,

i'm not going to get we3 #2 when it comes out in nine days time, i'm (really) going to wait until the week after so i can get the first issue of jla as well (not to mention the other shit that will finally have built up a bit by then.)

i was very upset after we3 no. 1 that i didn't have any more comics to read. this will not happen again.

am i normal?

cheers,

gamby
 
 
petar_g
23:45 / 25.10.04
See the first 3 pages of WE3 #2 at:

http://www.popcultureshock.com/reviews.php?id=3506

I still can't believe Quitely's artwork. I useta think he drew awkward, ugly characters, but his New X-Men work was much more attractive, and now....... I just wanna reach out and pat the bunnies.

Actually, after reading that preview, I probably better not. But you know what I mean. Just looks fantastic.

Petar
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
00:17 / 26.10.04
Holy fucking shit.

That is amazing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:53 / 26.10.04
Like a mash-up of 'Bright Eyes' and Ghostface's 'Run'.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
10:37 / 26.10.04
I'm having hideous regression into Watership Down and I KNOW that is deliberate.
Trust Morrison and Quitely to reference the only film gauranteed to make me cry forever.

I don't know ifI can bring myself to read the book anymore... it's far too torturous.
 
 
Triplets
10:47 / 26.10.04
Run rabbit run!

Is Bandit killing the bunnies in the first page or are they getting hosed by chopper fire?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
12:59 / 26.10.04
Like a mash-up of 'Bright Eyes' and Ghostface's 'Run'.

That's exactly right.

Re: QuitelyWear Check out his cover for Books Of Magic #2. Remarkable.

Oh, and these three pages? Stunned silence.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:36 / 26.10.04
I also need to point out that after yet another re-read, I notice Quitely loves to draw women in pigtails - he gave Jean Grey this look periodically in New X-Men and I think drew it on Ragged Robin at one point. Does Quitely have a fetish for women wearing their hair this way...?
 
 
Triplets
20:04 / 26.10.04
Do you?
 
 
Triplets
06:40 / 27.10.04
Prepare yourselves for Weapon 0

"A University of Florida scientist has created a living 'brain' of cultured rat cells that now controls an F-22 fighter jet flight simulator. Scientists say the research could lead to tiny, brain-controlled prosthetic devices and unmanned airplanes flown by living computers."

BOW BEFORE YOUR CYBERNETIC RATJET MASTERS
 
 
Ben Danes
07:40 / 27.10.04
Should we skip the debate and just declare Quitely a god/deity/presence? Because after looking at that splash page anyone saying that he is anything but deserves a punch in the head.

JLA: Classified #1 next week as well. I'm getting giddy waiting.
 
  

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