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Astonishing X-Men #2

 
  

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Matthew Fluxington
15:09 / 25.06.04
I don't know why some of you are so hung up on how Cassaday draws Henry. I certainly don't mind if the artists have their own interpretations. Frank Quitely doesn't draw the book anymore, so I don't see why there should be a slavish devotion to his design. So long as the image gets across "blue cat monster," it's fine.
 
 
Spaniel
16:12 / 25.06.04
IMHO, Joss has a way of bringing real human warmth to narrative, and I fucking love it.

Flux, I'm with you when you say you might end up preferring Whedon's run. Fair's fair, Morrison is responsible for much of what I love about the new book, but these days I tend to like stories that are a little more... well... earthy than Grant's.

Funny old thread this, there's a lot of disection - I liked this, I loathed that - but very little in the way of summation.

Lockheed is fucking Joycore!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:34 / 25.06.04
I think Grant's run had a lot of great ideas, memorable characters, and a few unforgettable scenes, but on the whole was rather messy and crudely constructed. I like the craft and structure of Joss' comics - his pacing is just right, fitting a sensible amount of story into the comic, but giving the story some room to breathe and have some small, human moments. If Joss keeps up the quality, I think that he will have the better product in the end. I like where this storyline is going - I look forward to learning more about Rao, Ord, and the real story behind Benetech.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:37 / 25.06.04
I agree that a lot of what makes Astonishing X-Men great comes from what Grant did for the comic - this is clearly just a continuation of that series. A new season.

I think that Joss Whedon does some great stuff with continuity - he's wise to remember all these little bits of Kitty's past, but pulls it off in a way in which it is totally unnecessary to have ever read the comics being referenced. It seems that he's one of the few folks working for Marvel who really took Grant's ideas about continuity to heart.
 
 
diz
18:00 / 25.06.04
Lockheed is fucking Joycore!

no, no, no. Lockheed is totally borecore, trying to disguise itself as joycore, which makes it even more borecore. it's like Wesley Crusher trying to explain why humanity is so gosh darn wonderful by giving the friendly alien girl a hot fudge sundae. awful.

I think that Joss Whedon does some great stuff with continuity - he's wise to remember all these little bits of Kitty's past, but pulls it off in a way in which it is totally unnecessary to have ever read the comics being referenced.

agreed. this is exactly how continuity should be handled.
 
 
Gary Lactus
18:12 / 25.06.04
No, no, NO! Lockheed IS joycore!

Actually, I go further:

MARRIAGECORE!

Well, I needn't say that stuff about Hank's character arc and Joss's excellent dialogue, characterization, plotting and pacing - Flux has gone done all that for me.

Go, Breakworld!
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:18 / 25.06.04
Should've been... BEAKWORLD

So far So good... The Emma Kitty bit was great... I hate BEAST's costume less.

Lockheed... well, his presance along wth a foe from "another world" has certainly moved the series closer to comic/fantasy rather than the Sci-fi of Morrison.

I don't mind.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
18:24 / 25.06.04
I think (even though it's already been kinda said but cos I wanna say it again) that hopefully - if all continues as it is - this will do the one thing that Grant's wildly variable run didn't, in being a really tightly structured and concise story in and of itself. (Although it's a given that it's probably of a much smaller and easily managed scope in 12 issues, that's something that's very appealing to me and not meant in detriment to Grant's work on the title).

And I for one, cannot wait. It seems to be setting up for a kind of epic movie/TV 3-parter (like the best Buffy, say), or something. Totally feels like X-men to me, in a homely way.

I can totally sense Joss' enthusiasm for the X-men, and it's great fun to read.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
18:55 / 25.06.04
I liked this issue a lot more than the first one, but that's probably because I've got more of a feel for where Whedon's going in terms of plot and character now. Issue #1 was good, but there were a couple of clunky moments, and... fuck it, the important thing is that I'm into it now.

Definitely in agreement with everyone who has said that Whedon is developing a lot of Morrison's character ideas very well here. The "cure" plot is shaping up to be a simple but effective source of drama, and I'm curious as to how exactly Ord fits into all of this, so consider me hooked!

Also -- that cover is ace! It's simple, but effective, and I love the way it ties into the character conflicts in the issue itself (so much better than any of the covers for issue #1, oh yes!).

It's interesting -- all of the comparissons (both positive and negative) that people have been making between Whedon's X-Men and Morrison's have really got me thinking about the different ways that the two of them borrow from Chris Claremont. They're obviously both big fans, but I think Joss has more of a handle on the out and out soap-opera side of the Claremont legacy, whereass Morrison's focus was more on the cosmic high adventure stuff.

Don't get me wrong, there are elements of both in the work of both writers, but looking at their respective non X-Men work there does seem to be a clear difference in emphasis. Which isn't to say that Morrison can't do emotional/character stuff, cos he bloody well can ("Who ever heard of an adventure that ended like this?"), but rather that I'm expecting a slicker soap from Whedon, as well as a more consistant ride (brevity + one good artist = a huge plus). That said, though, there are still elements of Morrison's run that I don't think Whedon will quite top -- the rush of 'E for Extinction' etc -- so, to use a popular cliche, it's all good.

Somewhat amusingly, given my opinions about the relative strengths of this comic, I think I prefer Cassiday's artwork when it's applied to material which is slightly grander and less soapy than this, but he's doing damned good work all the same. The way he stages the fight scene in this issue is bloody brilliant!
 
 
bigsunnydavros
19:41 / 25.06.04
Looking at what I just wrote it seems like "simple, but effective" is my phrase of the day! Still, that's what this issue was, really, wasn't it?
 
 
Simplist
21:55 / 25.06.04
Cassady's almost done that already. Hank's nose/jaw has been shortened and he's lost his cat-like lower legs. He's basically as he was only shaggier and vaguely cat-esque.

That was my initial reaction to the new look too--Cassaday's drawing Beast as close to the older version as possible while retaining just enough feline-ness (felinity?) to qualify as still being the latest model.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:19 / 26.06.04
I was thinking just before about how if you look at the goals that Grant Morrison was setting for himself in his initial pitch (aka "the manifesto,") Joss has come much closer to making the comic that he had in mind that Grant ever did, save for the E Is For Extinction and Riot At Xavier's storylines.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:32 / 26.06.04
About Lockheed - I don't think that his grand entrance so much shows either the X-Men or Ord to be chumps so much as it shows that Lockheed is a lot more potent and heroic than anyone suspects. I don't have any problem with that. It seems like Joss has a sentimental attachment to that character and wanted to do something cool with it after years and years of having Lockheed neglected in the comics.
 
 
Spaniel
13:33 / 26.06.04
I'm not sure what you mean by this, Diz.

It's like Wesley Crusher trying to explain why humanity is so gosh darn wonderful by giving the friendly alien girl a hot fudge sundae. awful.

Are you suggesting that Joss is attempting to bring warm and cuddly to the comic by introducing a warm and cuddly dragon? If so, surely that will depend on how Lockheed is handled as a character?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:54 / 26.06.04
It seems to me that Joss is going against the notion of Lockheed being warm and cuddly!
 
 
Spaniel
17:02 / 26.06.04
Swhat I was thinking. Also, I'm not sure that Lockheed has ever been a cuddly-wuggly dwagon. He's always had a very close bond with Kitty however.
 
 
Warewullf
17:11 / 26.06.04
I don't think it's so much that Lockheed is cuddly-wuddly so much as Shadowcat + Lockheed = Cuddly-wuddly-girle-and-her-favouritist-pet-EVER-ness.
 
 
Michelle Gale
17:56 / 26.06.04
I kind of think Joss talented writer that he is, is going to magnify the soap opera elements at the expense of the "how fucking cool was that bigness", which i kind of think mainstream comics should be about and what makes them distinct as a medium, i mean you can do anything with a comic, there aint a budget yet his opening story had the x-men fighting a funny looking chap with a sharp round thing. Whereas grant opened with E for Extinction. Fair enough its still early days but wheres the splosions!
 
 
osymandus
20:52 / 26.06.04
Whats warm and cuddly about setting fire to someones face ?

Just for curiositws sake why is wedon using wolverine as a rank amatuer in fights (as in the leaping straing into a waiting oppnent ?) And the lets be honest rather tired "hey lets cure the mutants again"(ok bit early to snipe at this (hey maybe he'll do a sex change issue where all the charcters switch thats not been done in a while ))!!

Now what would be good if we had a mass exodus of mutants leaving the USA and seeing how long the US lasts in its next big invaison from outer space ! ("What do you mean the scarlet witch has left !")
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:16 / 27.06.04
I liked this a lot, and I think it sets out what Joss wants to do with the title a lot better than #1, although that's possibly because the whole costume issue isn't really mentioned this time. Unfortunately Ord is extremely dull, I expect his last name is 'inary', but does seem to have a vague similarity to the little girl's dream, so it may be that when she was cured she wasn't really etc etc.

I like Joss' use of continuity, which is quite risky as the target audience that Marvel would ideally like to catch weren't even born when Kitty first appeared. It does have it's drawbacks though, Scott for example organised and led the second wave of the X-Men and X-Factor, he even spent some forty years in the future at one point, so I've always had a slight problem with both Grant and now Joss' interpretation of him as a stilted and emotionally blocked character in terms of the forty odd years of X-Men continuity, outside of that though its okay. Whilst he's obviously mourning the loss of Jean, I hope Joss plans for him to be more than just the same as the Morrison version of Cyclops just without bringing up En Sabur fuckin' Neh all the time. His wish for Professor Xavier to be there, while it works/doesn't work for me as I mentioned above, is interesting. I can see Joss using to give an excuse to the fans who are pissed off at the retreat from the Morrison era, yes the costume change IS silly, but that's because Cyclops is making mistakes in leading the team. Even if Joss never brings it up, I'm going to use that as the reason for bringing the costumes back in so I can relax.

The Emma-Kitty confrontation comes under similar considerations, in continuity it's clearly daft, yes that was what happened, but Joss apparently chooses to forget the time when (IIRC) Kitty and the New Mutants were brainwashed by Emma to join her Hellions. Or that she's been on the vaguely straight and narrow for the last ten years. But apart from that, a nicely written scene.

With regards to the Beast and Wolverine's reactions to the mutant 'cure'. Forty years of continuity should have taught Beast that nothing good was likely to come of trying to change what nature had done to him. He's not only a mutant but a mutate, so a mutant cure that works is unlikely to work properly on him. I would have to say I don't think you can read Morrison's Beast as one that wants to undo what's happened to him, but you can extrapolate to it, along the lines of the emotional fluctuations the Beast had which in the first year at least seemed to be a bit manic-depressive. In desperation at the school breaking apart the Beast took Kick and became Sublime, I think that with a crisis to push him he could investigate a cure. Of course, that's assuming he wants to use it on himself? What if he's concerned about it being used against the X-Men as a weapon, or is interested in using it himself as a weapon against Evil Mutants, or what if in this new timeline he's taken Kick again? I really hope this isn't going to undo the secondary mutation thing.

Wolverine's reaction was interesting. I wonder if Joss was referencing Barry Windsor-Smith's excellent 'Experiment X' about Logan's capture and transformation in the Weapon X program? That was the only time I've seen Logan show any self-hatred/agitation about his mutant status("To Mum, the secret's out, signed your son with the big hairy claws!") But maybe he's just angry at the idea of mutants being considered sick.

The scene when the X-Men face the media and try to be heroes was nice. I suppose that, as it was yet another thing that Morrison had no interest in showing, that we have to assume that the progression that Jean Grey made in the first year of Grant's run as acting headmistress in terms of the X-Men's relationship to the outside world was undone by the riot at Xaviers and 'Xorneto's conquering of New York.

Joss needs to come up with some villains that aren't shit dull one-dimensional characters but otherwise, if his writing stays at this quality then I'll keep reading the X-Men while he keeps writing it.
 
 
LDones
16:46 / 27.06.04
I think Mr. Whedon's next story arc should feature the X-Men battling their greatest archnemesis of all - X-Continuity!

I think every 'character' scene in these first two issues has been rock-solid. Expecting anyone to include 40 years of continuity (especially with Marvel characters, which aren't so archetypal and reveling in silliness as DC's are) in the task of writing a thus far excellent story is an increasingly silly proposition. It's like saying "Hot enough for ya?" or "It's not the heat it's the humidity", or "Monday, huh?". It's limp.

I don't care if Kitty Pryde never actually met Emma in continuity before, it's a fucking great character moment with her phasing through the wall and saying "Emma's smelly". I look forward to more of those.
 
 
LDones
16:52 / 27.06.04
Oh, and for those who seem to not remember from one issue to the next, Ord was there in the first scene with Dr. Rao and Tildie the little girl, watching from behind a false mirror. So yes he is involved with the mutant cure somehow.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:52 / 27.06.04
I think that it's too early to dismiss Rao and Ord - there's clearly something big that we haven't learned yet. I'm waiting for the twist. We're being kept in the dark along with the X-Men, which is kinda nice.

(Cyclops) even spent some forty years in the future at one point,

That kinda sorta falls into the area of junk continuity - stuff from forgotten miniseries which are best ignored and not ever referenced again.

I think that Scott's indecision in #2 is rather consistent with where Grant left off with him - he was a bit of a wreck in Assault On Weapon Plus, and we didn't see very much of him in Planet X. He's still getting over a lot, and it's believable that he's not quite together just yet. The important implication in the issue (as hinted by the cover) is that Emma's the one in charge, and that Scott may be a good superhero leader, but he needs someone to hold his hand every step of the way, whether it is Xavier, Jean, or Emma.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:58 / 27.06.04
The Emma-Kitty confrontation comes under similar considerations, in continuity it's clearly daft, yes that was what happened, but Joss apparently chooses to forget the time when (IIRC) Kitty and the New Mutants were brainwashed by Emma to join her Hellions.

I don't understand how this is relevant - did Kitty really have to rattle off a long list of occasions in which she had to face Emma? It was a lot better to cite the first and most important occasion.

In terms of continuity time, Emma has only been working with Xavier's for a couple years at most, and has been an X-Man for about a year. Either way, Emma and Kitty have had next to no contact for many years, so it makes sense that Kitty is stuck thinking of Emma as being a villain.

I'm a huge X-nerd, and seriously, I think that all of Joss's Kitty continuity is super tight.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:06 / 27.06.04
I kind of think Joss talented writer that he is, is going to magnify the soap opera elements at the expense of the "how fucking cool was that bigness", which i kind of think mainstream comics should be about and what makes them distinct as a medium,

I think it's too early to tell. Just going on how he structured a lot of Buffy stories, he seems more likely to build up to something big and bold. In his approach to pacing and structure, Whedon is just a lot more classic in his approach, which I appreciate.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:36 / 27.06.04
So what are you saying here, continuity is only important when it does what Joss wants, when it doesn't we all have a gentlegeeks agreement to pretend it never happened? You can't have Kitty refer to an event and then ignore everything that's happened since.

And I didn't say Kitty had never met Emma before. I personally think she was just saying stuff in the heat of the moment, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Emma possibly looking towards Kitty for either a replacement for Angel and the Cuckoos or just a friend. Lots of possibilities.

Nor did I forget issue one. I was wondering about the specific nature of that relationship between Ord and the girl, not whether there was one.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
19:55 / 27.06.04
I don't think it worked like that at all. Kitty referring back to the past - it's more of a bitchy thing, no? She can ignore everything that's happened all she wants, it's not like she's been around all the time getting friendly with Emma.

I think it's more like "I remember back when you caged us all blah blah, and look at you now. Why would I ever want to trust you?", a nasty remark so cutting purely because it can't be denied by Emma. I think it's a nice dynamic being set up by Josh.

And to be honest, I think continuity should only be important when it's serving the writer, rather than going against them and forcing them to do other things. It's just a handicap, and I'd much rather see a variety of different approaches to X-Men "history". I don't think making sense out of things that just don't make sense is anything any writer wants, or should have to, do. I much prefer the making reference to "a history" but not worhshipping (and subsequently making laborious footnotes and references to every single event and happening in X-Men lore) it style of comics writing.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:50 / 27.06.04
You can't have Kitty refer to an event and then ignore everything that's happened since.

I don't think that's what was happening - Kitty wasn't really talking about Emma's history, she was talking about her personal history with Emma. She was making reference to a key event in her life, which Emma happened to be part of, in a negative way. It wasn't necessary for her to go off on some Claremontian speech outlining Emma's life history - it's pretty obvious that Kitty was focused more on herself than Emma.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:58 / 27.06.04
"Ord of the Breakworld"? Definitely a Buffy villain.

Hmmm... it reminds me a bit of the "broken worlds" stuff in the Ellis reboot of X-Man. Not sure whether this will be picked up, though.

I'm a little bored, I confess, of villains kicking ass for just long enough for dramatic necessity and then becoming utterly puswah - I imagine Wolverine will give a far better account of himself next time round.

Ah well.
 
 
_Boboss
11:32 / 28.06.04
they did the cure plot in xstatix just a couple of months ago.

if you mess with mutant powers there's consequences, got that class?: consequences

you can amputate the girl's dreams if you want, but what if her nightmares just become real and start running around slashing things? slashing wolverine?

like if you give buffy really full on superpowers? the overrider is nothing comes for free punx, graft, and truck not with the quo

the dragon should be huge. there's not enough fun stuff to look at in this comic, it's all shot like a fucking tv movie. get over the xwing, get them travelling on dragonback. and how tuff is this ord (shat name) if a face fulla fire is all it takes?

i mean its kinda okay, but not really good enough. reread fray recently and the blame can't go entirely to the artist there - whedon's just got a tendency to make his twists visible miles away, and wring a slightly flat drama-feeling from it all.
 
 
_Boboss
11:44 / 28.06.04
looking forward to some hairy shins, forearms and big feet preppy beast action though. wouldn't it be great if the cure made him human on the outside but more and more like a beast inside his mind?

i really really really hope i'm not writing this comic
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
12:36 / 28.06.04
Again it's been done. In X-factor he reverted to human form but the more he used his strenth the dumber he got... very tragic. Lets not retread that storyline, it doesn't need exhuming.
I'm all for turning him human and over to the dark side. Although Evil human geneticist with insider info on the X-men does sound a bit too much like Sinister.
 
 
Spaniel
09:11 / 29.06.04
The man was joking.

I'm sure Jossy won't be bringing back stupid randomness like Dork Beast - at least not without a good, character driven, reason.

Gambit, this isn't the fucking Never Ending Story.
 
 
_Boboss
09:53 / 29.06.04
you and your 'good, character driven' storylines - sound like bloody john major or something. and like whedon does you mean? season 7 willow, or zander? or season n gunn, lorne, anyone?

his one idea was highschool + kungfu and then somehow everyone thinks he's the saviour of serious drama. and he's still got the teenage girl as the emotional focus - ooh, nineties: and not a hissy fit goes unnoticed. does the plot not look stagey to anyone else? does this not feel like television rather than comics?

it just doesn't feel new enough. and the use of the form, when you have an artist like cassady who, given time, can do pretty much anything, is pedestrian. i'm disappointed with these issues so far.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:03 / 29.06.04
hold me, gambit
 
  

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