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Moderating the Temple

 
  

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Alex's Grandma
21:48 / 17.04.08
Tacitly enouraged, that is.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:53 / 18.04.08
Werl, certain recent developments would appear to indicate that someone is actually watching the blinking red light and making appropriate adjustments. For the time being, anyhow.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:03 / 18.04.08
As for ignoring the problem: I realise that from a certain perspective it's all silly magic people getting in a silly little kerfuffle over their silly magic stuff, and one uppity woman getting uppity over a few naughty words. What can I say, I guess we're just all oversensitive. If one finds silly magic people making a fuss bothersome, I suppose one could choose to avoid threads on the topic.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
00:01 / 19.04.08
+1 to what mordant said - making ones own choice what to view or not view is a good thing. Anything else is rather presumptuous unless it stomps on the right to decide for another? Otherwise things will stagnate to the level of "oi you kids get off my astral lawn!".

Liminal Nation is a grade A gold star happening and it cannot happen quick enough even if the best I can hope for is to stand in the garden next door and listen to the pretty folks making the sweet music. I hope Alex's will stop around at the 'lith however - his humanity is endearingly honest, genuine and fallible and he doesn't talk down to people - teh crazy fule!

Then again I'm just a "Plastic Trickster" - is that an easily bandied, emotionally manipulative pejorative or is it just that we do not agree? How would you know if you didn't know better? *shrugs* either way it really ain't that important in the grand scheme of things insofar as hate is actually *not* encouraged, and simple human understanding *is* encouraged and that the failings of youth are given a chance to learn and find better ways - with or without the sympathetic and considered experience of their elders.

Maybe being told-off all the time will help, or maybe that will just make bitter fucked up adults even more entrenched in their 'wrongful unhealthy ideas' (unlike us elder socially well adjusted enlightened lithers who were born perfect ey?). Or maybe your strategy is part of the much discussed problem. R.I.P BRBLTH

Haus will I stay off the hypothetical 'lith pruning gas-chamber list if i say I LOVED your bit on why Ultra Magnus was gay for Prime??!! *fingers and legs crossed*
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:35 / 19.04.08
Then again I'm just a "Plastic Trickster" - is that an easily bandied, emotionally manipulative pejorative or is it just that we do not agree? How would you know if you didn't know better?

Show, don't tell. I'm identifying you as someone adopting a trickster pose with little substance to back it up based on what you've written on the board since you arrived. Want me to reasess? Start by not taking cheap shots at minority groups and not cheerleading for religious fundamentalist misogynists and the enablers who love them.

You've used a fairly typical tack here, where people using harrassing, sexist, or racist language are merely young and inexperienced, with the nasty old greyfaces failing to make allowances for their naivety and enthusiasm ("failings of youth," "oi you kids get off my astral lawn!"). This is a nice comforting bromide, I'm sure, but it has little to do with the situation at hand. Calvin didn't get booted off because he was youthful and inexperienced. People bent over backwards to get through to him. If you actually read the thread in question (something I doubt you've done), you'll see a number of carefully written, cogent posts addressing Calvin's arguents and offering alternative veiwpoints. I personally pissed away an entire morning exchanging PMs, trying to get him to calm down and take on board what was being said. What I got out of it was a slew of incresingly rude messages, including the final one which was packed full of gender slurs and unwarrented personal abuse.

I'm not sure precisely what you're getting at with the above post because it's so badly thrown together, but whatI'm recieving "ah hah but YOU can just ignore offensive material TOO, ah haaaa do you see what I did there?" This basically equates "discussions on magic, which would appear to put Granny in a funny mood, should be avoided by Granny," with "people should ignore religious intolerance and the deliberate use of racial slurs purely to upset people one doesn't like." I suppose from the shicka-shicka-fnord words on a screeen maaaan frea speach position that you've espoused in the past (notably in respect of DEDI getting called on his shit) this is the case, but I'd kind of beg to differ.

(I'm pretty sick, actually, of experiencing gendered harrassment and being told I should "just ignore it." I have been getting this all my life and I will not bloody ignore it. I especially won't ignore it just so Pyewacketts can feel comfy and cosy and don't have to see anything that upsets them.)

I've never claimed to be born perfect and I've never asked anyone else to be perfect, just to show the absolute bare minimum of empathy and rational engagement. Stop throwing around phoney accusations that you can't back up because they are manifestly untrue. That's not what a Trickster does.

You want to be the Trickster? Step up to the goddamn role and play it for real. Play it from a place of insight and sincerity, rather than from a place of ignorance and self-regard. Play it from a place where you--not just the mean nasty greyfaces but you--are being challenged with your issues and are facing your shit every day of your life. Don't just apply comforting narratives to spin what is essentially socially conformist behaviour into being teh coyote!23!!11!.

Till you're prepared to do that, then sorry but yeah you're just another a plastic trickster.
 
 
Quantum
13:37 / 19.04.08
Actually, I'm pretty sick of Mordant experiencing gender based abuse and being told to ignore it. It seems sometimes that every douche that comes by makes a beeline for her and starts slinging shit and then some apologist in Policy defends them, it's a boring cycle.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:14 / 19.04.08
If one finds silly magic people making a fuss bothersome, I suppose one could choose to avoid threads on the topic.

I don't know if it's as simple as that. I wish it was, but what's left of Barbelith isn't a compartmentalised system, so what goes on in forum A is bound to affect the rest of the place, in the sense that the fights tend to spill over.

Especially, it seems, if they happen in the Temple. There's the Barbannoy thread, there's this one; you guys just can't seem to keep it in your trousers ...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:21 / 20.04.08
Mmm. So we have this thread--clearly labled as a thread for discussing matters Temply--and the Barbannoy thread, which is for stuff people find annoying, and therefore likely to annoy one. I suppose you could include Barbequotes because the odd Temple quote does turn up there too.

So that's all of--one, two, three threads. This is your deleterious board-wide impact, is it? Gosh.

Anyhow. As I have said before, if one really felt that there was some argument for sinking the Temple, one could start a dedicated thread on that, rather than turning up in this one whenever one finds oneself at a loose end of an evening.

Further, if one felt genuinely discomforted or aggrieved by Temple-related scratchiness, especially if one had no discernable interest in anyting within the Temple's broad remit, one could also avoid going down there to stir up contentious threads in the hopes that one will get a few lulz out of the less RAW-enamoured posters, or constantly minimising the actions of racists, sexists, those who preach religious intolerance, and those who choose to send abusive asnd harrassing messages to other board members.

If someone were to continue doing these things, whilst simultaneously protesting a deep weariness with Temple drama--why, it might almost seem as if this person were not entirely on the up-and-up with those appeals for calm.
 
 
Quantum
14:56 / 20.04.08
piss off, granny.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:23 / 20.04.08
For what it's worth, I put in a request for my above post to be deleted, because it was stupid and ill-advised.

I'm just going to leave it there, I think.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:27 / 20.04.08
(The matter, that is; there's nothing much I can do about the post.)
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
18:16 / 20.04.08
you guys just can't seem to keep it in your trousers ..

I always thought magicians wore robes. Under which, I guess, they could furiously waggle 'it'.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:35 / 21.04.08
Actually, I'm pretty sick of Mordant experiencing gender based abuse and being told to ignore it. It seems sometimes that every douche that comes by makes a beeline for her and starts slinging shit and then some apologist in Policy defends them, it's a boring cycle.

I've noticed this myself. I thought it was especially prevalent in this last incident, where Mordant ended up the recipient of "a slew of increasingly rude messages, including the final one which was packed full of gender slurs and unwarranted personal abuse."

I didn't receive a single PM from that geezer, abusive or otherwise, and I was being a lot more combative in the thread than Mordant had been. So what's happening there? If that isn't an example of someone sending gender-based abuse to a female-identified contributor, whilst engaging totally differently with a male-identified contributor who was actively involved in the same debate, then I'm not sure what it is. I was fairly aggressive throughout that thread. So why does Mordant get all the abuse?

I always thought magicians wore robes.

Magicians wear suits.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
12:57 / 21.04.08
Not even a cape?

BTW, has Assmouth AKA grim reader been booted? Or did he just leave of his own accord?
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
13:19 / 21.04.08
I think that last time was more about her role as the initial combatant and her input over a consistent period than her gender. Mordant gets a shit load of stick for being female and in a position of perceived authority though but when has the most visible female poster on this board not had that experience? Apparently the world is just full of lunatic misogynists who want to kill their mothers... or something.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:42 / 21.04.08
I think that last time was more about her role as the initial combatant and her input over a consistent period than her gender.

If by "last time" we're talking about Calvin and the end point of paganism thread, I'm not sure where you're getting "initial combatant" from. Yes, I took Calvin to task for his religious intolerance and later his racist actions, but I came to the thread after several other posters had already made lengthy comments. I did not initiate the PM exchange--in fact, Calvin had sent me two messages before I replied. These messages became increasingly misogynistic in tone, with the final one using explicitly misogynistic language after a specific request from me that he not do so. I'd say there was definately a gender bias involved.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:05 / 21.04.08
My experience of that thread was that there were various people challenging Calvin - among them Mordant, Ev, Id entity and a few others - but I was actually the first person to respond to his initial post, and a significant portion of that thread did feel like a two-way spat between me and him. He really didn't like what I had to say, and I was unapologetically rude to him from his offensive second post onwards. So why didn't I get the abusive PMs?
 
 
Quantum
15:36 / 21.04.08
Because of your nob, obvs.
 
 
grant
15:49 / 21.04.08
I got a couple PMs, too, non-combative - didn't respond right away because wasn't here. Based on those, his problem seemed to be that Mordant was a moderator, so shouldn't be arguing or disagreeing or something. He was frustrated because he'd edited some posts and the edits hadn't gone through or something.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:56 / 21.04.08
I took care to explain to him why edits can take a while to process. He was aware of the distributed mod system.
 
 
EvskiG
20:32 / 21.04.08
Didn't get any PMs from Calvin.

And I expected I would.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:33 / 22.04.08
Also pretty sick of having poster A got taken to task over bigoted comments by poster B and proceeded to harrass B situations framed as "fights." I've literally lost count of the number of times I've seen someone pulled up on really stupid offensive shit lose their rag and go after the puller-upper with abusive PMs, unsupportable accusations, etc., and when this gets called it's minimised with "Oh, but poster B started it."
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:53 / 22.04.08
(PS: thx to the people who have stepped in to be groovy and supportive, much appreciated.)
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
18:03 / 22.04.08
Mordant, I meant he perceived you as a combatant, as in you started to talk to him. I'm sorry but I did actually find your response to that quite aggressive.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:36 / 22.04.08
Sorry--re-reading my post I realise that it does indeed come off as very abrasive, which wasn't my intent. I was really only looking for clarification as to what you meant. You're quite right, I should have phrased things better.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
20:38 / 22.04.08
At least we can express ourselves badly together.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:25 / 26.04.08
Darrel Rivers! Batter up.

...the atmosphere emanating from the Temple, which is at times utterly vile in its levels of aggression...

Help us to help ourselves with some links, quotes, etc., backing up this position.
 
 
Quantum
23:13 / 26.04.08
I would like some links too, or even just threads, that we could discuss.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
21:10 / 28.04.08
You're going to have to wait until I'm more with it I'm afraid.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:35 / 29.04.08
Fair do's.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
19:09 / 02.05.08
Fuuuuuuuuuuck.
Really.
I know I'm a "Newbelith" but I had no Idea. Barbelith is pretty sprawling for someone who joins and hasn't spent days lurking and snooping. I just discovered this thread and started glancing through.
Let me say again: Fuuuuuuuuuuck.
I had no clue there were so many problems. It's a microcosm, I suppose. Assholes are to be found everywhere. I joined because I wanted to learn. In my circle of friends, I've always been the "authority" on wierd. Coming here has been refreshing because posters like Gypsy Lantern, This is *my* Hole, Quantum, Grant, etc... have shown me that I really have a lot to learn. I find inspiration when someone points out my ignorance.
I never knew about "trolls". I can't seem to be able to imagine that some ignorant jerk could use these boards to spew hatred and abuse because he/she/it feels powerless in "real" life. (Immasculated. Lets be honest, the most abusive will tend to be men)
I didn't even know that TI*M*H(Mordant) was a woman. I actually thought that Gypsy Lantern was... I'm hoping that it hasn't influenced my posts, because I honestly don't care who's what.
Care is not the right word: It doesn't matter to me. I have been taught by men and women in equal measure. You can not afford to ignore or underestimate the experience of either.
Maybe idiots like Calvin attack women because they just don't know how to flirt? (Again, it's kinda beyond me thinking people come here to cruise.)
No, they're just mysoginist bastards living out their fantasies virtually. They most certainly go jerk off after sending hateful PM's.
All that aside, I've read a bit of the "Barbelith is Dying" threads... Is there really no hope? If only for the Temple? I hate to think I jumped on board to have it fall apart under my feet (fingertips).
If it does die... Will you accept my humble request to join "Liminal Nation" Gypsy Lantern?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:17 / 02.05.08
If it's any consolation, freektemple, I've been enjoying your contributions.

Everyone always has a lot to learn. The important thing is if you're stepping up to the process of learning it.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
19:44 / 02.05.08
HUGE consolation.
It goes without saying that when a gay person "comes out" it's incredibly difficult. (I've been the first friend that one of my old highschool friends came out to, and have seen many others take those first difficult steps)
While I can't really draw a complete parallel, I have to say, coming out as a Magickian is hard, too. I mean, how many peoople are that open and understanding?
(Like I said, I'm not really comparing the difficulty... Well, OK, maybe a little bit...)
I have a boss who would laugh in my face (and most likely find a way to get rid of me...) if I told him I'm starting that I'm begining to practice Magick, yet, he lent me a DVD of ENRON - The Smartest Guys in the Room, a very potent black magick video grimoire, if you ask me. He also uses visualization as a means to success. (And he is successful...) But mention Magic(k)...
There's a huge stigma.
That's why places like Barbelith are important. The support of interacting with like-minded individuals can really help someone make sense of all this Magick business... Finding people in "real" life to discuss Magick with is important too, but places like this can help you find "real" magickians to meet, eventually. I don't think going out and finding the nearest lodge, be it Masonic, OTO, AOTO, A.:A.:, etc... Is all that wise until you've done your homework. Even then...
The internet is vast, and the community seemingly small... As I said, I just want a nice place to learn some stuff with good people.
(I will officially recant my previous stance of the importance of needing to teach the "Children". When they grow up, then they can sit at the big people's table.)
As to how much I step up? Time will tell: I'm a work in progress.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:07 / 02.05.08
We're all works in progress mate.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:38 / 03.05.08
As for the isolation... I can relate. It's not fun. But it does get better. As you get more into this, you'll find you naturally start to build the connections you need. People turn up in your life, sometimes through quite unexpected intersections. There's some older threads in the Temple about meeting other magicians which you might want to have a look at.
 
  

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