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Marvel Mythology Surgery

 
  

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Triplets
08:41 / 29.04.09
It was one of the Xavier Protocols from around the time of Onslow... sorry Onslaught, not Charles' lazy relative. Essentially Xavier's own Bat-plan for defeating the X-Men should one of them go rogue.
 
 
penitentvandal
16:17 / 29.04.09
I seem to recall that drowning will do it, as well.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
17:34 / 29.04.09
Yep, by the 90's they had gone completely juts with it...and recently it was retconned in that Wolverine actually DOES die and has to fight death every time he comes back.

Then again, like most everything else in the Wolverine series, it'll be ignored as soon as it is collected as a trade.
 
 
Triplets
07:41 / 30.04.09
Wolverine actually DOES die and has to fight death every time he comes back.

I want to see a Seventh Seal style Wolverine story where he keeps beating Death at more and more ludicrous games.

"This time, James, we'll play Death Dance Revolution!"
 
 
Benny the Ball
01:40 / 03.05.09
It always seemed to me that Wolverine kind of lost the edge of cool when Gambit came along, and because of that, it was open season on the character - anything went, the origin might as well be explained and so on. For me, both Logan and then Remy were always that embarrassing kind of character that a lot of readers thought they were like - loners, honourable, wild, dangerous... whatever....
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
05:54 / 03.05.09
My problem with those characters is that they drag out the revelations for SO LONG that you no longer care. In the late 80's and early 90's, I had to quit reading the books because EVERYONE had a mysterious past that was connected somehow to the other X-Men, but they didn't remember for some reason.

Then, that whole thing spread like a virus through comics. I think Image was founded on it.
 
 
Jackie Susann
05:19 / 13.05.09
In the last Scott Pilgrim, there's a bit where he's explaining what seems to be an X-Men plot where the team live in Australia and wacky stuff happens, I think someone gets crucified on a giant X or something. Were there really X-Men stories set in Australia (excited for parochial/nerd reasons), and are they collected in any of those cheap fat black and white reprint volumes?
 
 
Janean Patience
05:28 / 13.05.09
There were really X-Men stories in Australia, complete with a silent and spiritual Aborigine character, and if I remember correctly Claremont didn't hold back on the Aussie accents. What a talent he had for writing dialogue from around the world. They came immediately after the Inferno storyline, no actually I think it was the Fall Of The Mutants, but I dunno which Essential volume they're in.
 
 
Janean Patience
05:29 / 13.05.09
From a glance at Amazon, v8.
 
 
osymandus
16:00 / 13.05.09
This also introduced the world to Jubilee and Wolverine to crucified on a giant X .
 
 
Jackie Susann
22:04 / 13.05.09
Wait, Jubilee is Australian?!?!
 
 
Jack Fear
00:20 / 14.05.09
Nope; she's a US citizen whose parents were immigrants from Vietnam. The X-Men visited the mall in her California suburb, and she tagged along to their soopa-secret Outback headquarters by slipping through the dimensional rift opened by the mysterious, unspeaking Aboriginal shaman named "Gateway," who would open these doorways by whirling his bullroarer and oh FUCK YOU CHRIS CLAREMONT.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:57 / 14.05.09
There were really X-Men stories in Australia, complete with a silent and spiritual Aborigine character, and if I remember correctly Claremont didn't hold back on the Aussie accents. What a talent he had for writing dialogue from around the world. They came immediately after the Inferno storyline, no actually I think it was the Fall Of The Mutants, but I dunno which Essential volume they're in.

Yep it was Fall of the Mutants. They retreated to an old Reavers base in the outback after faking their deaths. I seem to recall some mysterious subplot about the weird computer systems there that never came to fruition.

Question following...

Isn't Gateway supposed to be Bishop's dad or something awful and thoroughly X-Men like that?
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:58 / 14.05.09
Also, I remember Bishops sister Shard popping up at some point (or a suddenly sentient holo-cording of her). Is she still an active character?
 
 
Janean Patience
16:23 / 14.05.09
The great thing about those questions is that, though I don't know the answers, they involve 90S X-MEN so I know they'll be utterly incomprehensible.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:59 / 14.05.09
The only correct answer to any 90's X-MEN trivia question = WHO CARES?
 
 
Lugue
18:43 / 14.05.09
Great-grandfather, actually, and a 00s thing: Claremont did it in X-Treme (gag) X-Men.

Claremont.

The idiot.
 
 
Janean Patience
18:43 / 14.05.09
Was Gateway silent because Claremont couldn't find "Aboriginal accent" in his Big Book of National Stereotypes?
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:34 / 14.05.09
Man, I cannot WAIT to read these.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
02:42 / 15.05.09
Just thinking about 90's X-Men kills my very will to live.
 
 
Jackie Susann
05:39 / 15.05.09
I don't know if there's any way to answer this except 'they were bad', but why are 90s X-Men so reviled? I mean, the plot recap above is pretty dumb, but not really more than if you summarised fondly remembered storylines like Dark Phoenix or whatever.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:37 / 15.05.09
By that point the storylines were getting a bit convoluted and inward turning. You either had to know nth years worth of X-History or worse you'd get a page and a half of unrealistic eXposition to bring everyone up to date.

The plots were pretty formulaic too as I recall. Or, at least, that was when the never-ending roundabout of Sentinesl/Apocalypse/Oooooh look Magneto's back and nothing will ever be the same again...again became very obvious. Something Glint Mozzelbot critiqued in his run.

Way too many X-titles too, and storylines were so overblown that you often didn't know the whole story unless you brought every single one (a tactic that Marvel continue to this very day with Civil War and Secret Invasion and so on).

There were occasional highlights, it wasn't all awful. I seem to recall the story that introduced Omega Red being quite good.
 
 
Lugue
12:40 / 15.05.09
Way too many X-titles too, and storylines were so overblown that you often didn't know the whole story unless you brought every single one

Well, assuming that somewhere in the mess there were storylines, and with Lobdell, I wouldn't count on it. Vague things... happen. Grand plots... somewhere. People... suffer. These are... the X-Men. It's like a depressed Claremont parody.
 
 
Benny the Ball
02:39 / 21.05.09
I'm going back to the start and reading all the X-Men Essentials collections, starting with the terrible Stan and Jack early days - every sentence ends with an exclamation mark or question mark, or both, or two of one of them!!??!?!?! Everyone in the 60's marvel universe must have shouted at each other all the time... or just been really sarcastic?

A couple of things that have popped up early on (I've just finished issue 13, when the X-Men and the Human Torch defeat the Juggernaut) is that in the first few issues nothing is really said of Mutants being feared and hated, in fact Prof X has links to people in the FBI and Government who he helps out. Another thing is that in an early issue Professor X thinks about how he can never reveal his true feelings for Jean. Granted every man seems to fall for just about every woman in the early Marvel books, but this really stuck out as kind of creepy - especially as the seeds of an early Scott/Jean "if only they knew how I really felt" love thing was brewing.

So, I know I'm going to read the rest, but just out of interest, is the Prof X loves Jean thing ever approached again?
 
 
Jack Fear
03:24 / 21.05.09
DID YOU KNOW? Hard as it may be to believe, forty-five years ago, comic books artists and writers did not make a fetish of consistency! Some have theorized that they were actually making it up as they went along, and kept what worked while discarding what didn't; but that sort of talk can obviously be dismissed as the rantings of madmen.

Because they must have known, Stan and Jack, must have known from the very first issue that people would still be reading X-MEN forty-five years later, and so in the earliest issues they were playing the long game, seeding future plotlines—while giving the cunning impression that they were flailing around looking for a suitable tone.

But we know better, don't we? Oh yes. All those inconsistencies in the early stories—they're not mistakes, oh no. Silly boy. No such thing as mistakes in this game.

They're clues, you see.
 
 
PatrickMM
03:30 / 21.05.09
I believe it's referred to at some point in one of Claremont's Classic X-Men backup stories, but I can't remember the reference off hand. Other than that, it's generally ignored, and for good reason.

I love almost all of Claremont's run, wacky Australia stuff included, but have been unable to get through that first volume of Essential Stan and Jack X-Men after a couple of tries. The characters have no personality whatsoever, and the emotional beats are the same in every issue.
 
 
Benny the Ball
04:31 / 21.05.09
Jack - yeah, thanks. I wasn't getting all comic book guy and saying that in issue x such and such said y and then in issue z it was contradicted - I was just wondering if future writers had gone back to anything that was mentioned in the past and run with them.

Magneto is quite interesting in the early issues, an arrogant idiot with undefined "magnetic" powers (magnetic hypnotism, magnetic astral projection).

Patrick - The early issues are pretty bad, nothing changes from issue to issue - we start with the team in training, then iceman will do something clownish, then professor x will suddenly yell "Silence!!!" then they go and fight someone - cyclops seems unable to explain even the most basic of things that would stop 80% of the fights, Marvel Girl forgets her powers, Beast waxes about waxing, Angel tells us how great it is to fly and how glad he is that professor x trained him on maneuvering so much and so on and so on.

Every now and then, the professor will yell "Vacation!" and they all go off (coffee shops, rich parents, never quite getting anywhere) except Scott, who can't risk his dangerous power ever killing anyone...

We only really start to get a sense of continuation in the Juggernaut story and the following Sentinels issues.

The Juggernaut story is funny, for the first issue the juggernaut approaches, and the x-men constantly say "should we go and stop him?" but professor x stops them so that he can tell them his origin story. He's quite the talker, prof x.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:19 / 21.05.09
...except of course for sometimes in the early issues, when he communicates only by telepathy.

I guess I came off as a bit of a dick upthread (now there's a first!), but I've been a bit submerged in the early Silver Age stuff lately, and I just cannot stress enough how improvisational it all seems. They're just throwing it all together on the fly, and there's barely even an attempt at consistency. Stan Lee famously couldn't even keep the names straight; the whole reason he started relying on the alliterative names was as a mnemonic, and even then Bruce Banner kept turning into "Bob Banner" in early issues of The Hulk.

The "government connections" angle is one that keeps cropping up in the early Silver Age. There are reasons for that. Remember, nobody was sure that this "super-hero" fad was going to last—prior to 1962, Marvel had been making most of its money with monster comics, Westerns, and war stories—and the vocabulary and syntax of super-heroing had not really been established. There were no extradimensional hordes, no vast criminal conspiracies, no foes long-thought-dead to return; the Kree and the Skrulls hadn't even made their first appearances yet.

And so the writers and artists jammed these new characters into more-or-less standard war/spy/action plots——and with the Cold War was foremost in everyone's mind, that means that every superhero worth his tights went up against fifth columnists or banana-republic strongmen in the early days.

Early issues of Thor give probably the most blatant examples of how jerry-rigged the whole enterprise was. The concept of Thor keeps shifting—sometimes it seems that Don Blake becomes Thor, sometimes that he changes places with him. The specifics of Blake himself keep shifting; one issue he's a doctor in a ghetto clinic; the next, a research scientist working on a government project; the next, a Peace Corps doctor on a mission to Central America. He takes orders from the State Department in one story, and is denounced as a vigilante in another—all according to the momentary dictates of the story.

What's surprising, I think, is not that the stories were chaotic and slipshod in the beginning, but rather how quickly they found their voices and styles. Within three or four years, Thor's tone of cosmic grandeur was fully in place, the X-Men were an all-purpose cipher for all oppressed groups, the Fantastic Four's supporting cast and family-based melodrama were in full swing... remarkable, really.

That's what makes those very early issues so fascinating—to me, anyway. I'm a process geek, and for me reading that stuff is like listening to demos of familiar songs, and thinking about how they changed in the conception, and contemplating the directions they might have taken, if someone had made a different decision.
 
 
Benny the Ball
03:02 / 22.05.09
I think you're right - and it is important to remember that these stories are new and raw and finding their pace and tone etc.

Actually, X-Men seems to settle pretty quickly, after the first year of nothing really happening (was it published monthly at first?) by issue 14 onwards the characters are beginning to have their thing worked out, the tone of the public's feeling towards mutants is pretty clear, and there seems to be more of a sense of continuation.

They certainly are not to everyone's tastes, but there is something fresh and kind of fun to seeing these characters that I have only known in the densest sense over the years. The fact that Warren is happiest when flying makes my knowledge of his loss of wings at a later date seem more of a real choice - the beast being very comfortable as he is - Iceman's fear of being seen as inferior - Cyclop's fear of being unable to control his powers - Jean's growing abilities - all beats that carry on into the books today.

They aren't the most readable of stories, but it's still fun seeing it all grow.
 
 
Janean Patience
05:32 / 22.05.09
I've got the second Claremont Essential X-Men volume, which begins with Alpha Flight and ends with the death of Jean Grey, and while it was interesting to read as a slab of history there wasn't much that appealed to me storywise. It was all just so soapy and angsty. Which I realise is the X-Men so I shouldn't complain. It did help me understand Byrne's enduring following - the man could draw back in the day.

If you want it Benny or anyone else I'm happy to trade for any other Essential or Showcase volume. They're my current comics addiction.
 
 
Benny the Ball
14:18 / 22.05.09
Thanks Janean, but I actually have them all lined up ready.

I've just given all my showcase's away too - if not you could have had dibs on the lot...

I always remember Byrne's work on X-Men fondly, it was the first time as a kid that I realised that the stories in comics ran and ran, and that every month I could get more of that - I think his stuff with the Hellfire Club were the first "continuous" marvel comics that I bought. Looking forward to getting to that stuff.
 
 
Jackie Susann
22:47 / 07.09.09
Lila Cheney's mutant power is teleportation, but only over interstellar distances, and only to places she's been before, right? So how the hell did she ever figure this out in the first place - she happened to be in some other galaxy and figured she'd give spontaneously teleporting back to her home town a go?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:10 / 07.11.11
Bump
 
 
Jackie Susann
08:26 / 08.11.12
I can't believe nobody ever answered my question about Lila Cheney
 
 
Still Decrescent
18:29 / 21.12.12
Cheney was, from memory, trying to run away and hide after getting caught shoplifting and she blipped out onto that big spaceship/planet thing she had, which was so user friendly she could pull up star charts or whatever and see where she was at _and_ use it to stage her soon to be massively successful cosmic rawk shows and score Dazzler as a backup singer. As you would.

Okeh, as I would.
 
  

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