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Matrix Revolutions (Spoilers)

 
  

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Catjerome
01:46 / 17.11.03
I liked Monica Belucci's cleavage.
Thirded. And I saw it at an IMAX theater, hurray! Megacleavage a welcome distraction from a movie that felt like it was cobbled together from parts of other movies.
 
 
PatrickMM
03:53 / 17.11.03
http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/feature/weekendboxofficer.html

Looks like Revolutions is not exactly a bomb, but for what it was expected to do, is failing quite miserably. Say what you want about Episode II, that still cleared 300 million (not that money indicates quality, but that shows that at least people still cared enough to try the film). It's only been a week and a half since I've seen the film, but I'm rapidly forgetting. It's really weak and I'm still at a loss for how the Wachowskis could create the challenging and stylish Reloaded, then completely reject that for the wholly conventional Revolutions.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:12 / 17.11.03
We have some people expressing delight, others ranting with all the anger of a "woman scourned."

Yep. Careful, you haters. You don't want to be like women, do you? Don't want to be all womanly.

You want to be manly, a manly man like this inhabitant of the prototypical model for the mumbling, hippyish, quasi-mystical, berobed last bastion of mankind Zion:



No ranting for him. No. Not like a woman. He walks like a man. Talks like a man. Pouts like a man.

This thread is great.
 
 
cusm
19:25 / 17.11.03
What was with the bit with the gunfighters walking on the ceiling, anyway? Did they listen to too much Lionel Richie? Unlike the thugs in Reloaded, I couldn't identify what mythological cast-aways they were supposed to be.
 
 
Baz Auckland
15:36 / 18.11.03
My main problem with this last one is that I didn't care about Zion, Niobe trying to pilot through the passages, etc. Even if the philosophy is only half-baked, I wanted more of the movie to take place inside the matrix with the resulting conversations with the Architect, the Oracle and other programs... I didn't need to see 90min of sentinels being shot over and over.

It didn't help that I saw the 1st one for the first time in three years a week earlier. It made me remember how much I loved it when it came out, and how the next two just didn't live up to the expectations it made for the sequels... no bitterness though. Revolutions was okay, but just okay.

The directors should have written it all as a trilogy first, had it published, THEN adapted it to the screen. At least then we would be able to know who the hell the Merovingian and company really were without having to rely on expensive DVD extras and video games...
 
 
--
17:56 / 18.11.03
At the end of week 2, Revolutions dropped 66%. Yikes.
 
 
houdini
22:14 / 19.11.03

Went to see it last night, only because I felt I had to.

I thought it was largely terrible.

Here's the deal: The Wachowski's tried to tell this other big sci-fi movie all about Zion and its brave last stand against the oncoming machines. And, for me, it was a disaster.

Power suits. Squiddies. Battle-ships with rear gun turrets. The Death Star moving into position in time to destroy Zion. If only Luke can defeat his Dark Opposite in time.... Yes, the Wachowskis were trying to remake Star Wars.

Too bad that all of the Zion related characters were at a sub-Babylon-5 level of triteness, with the costumes to match.

Too bad that the special FX for the power suits made the real world look less plausible than the reality inside the Matrix.

Too bad that none of this plot arc evoked any tension, or bore any relation to the alleged philosophical themes of these movies.

I reckon that between them, Reloaded and Revolutions could've comprised one good movie if all of Zion had been left on the cutting room floor.

There'd still be need for a complete rewrite of the dialogue and moderation of some concepts, vis the Merovingian. Put the Neo/Smith fight earlier and then have the confrontation with the Architect touch on some actual philosophical material. But I think you could probably salvage one reasonable movie from these two addled twins.

Still wouldn't be as good as The Matrix, though.
 
 
at the scarwash
23:18 / 19.11.03
And they seriously referred to the mekasquids as calimari. Straight faces.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:38 / 24.11.03
Damn that's funky Suedehead! It doesn't deal with anything. Trinity dies. Why? Because they don't know what to do with her after she goes with Neo. Because she can't go and sacrifice herself to the machines as well. Lazy.

Oh come on! Every program or film with a Messianic One figure is full of characters who say they'll die for the One but hardly ever does anyone who's name is in the credits at the start actually cork it. Based on what we saw in the last movie, very few people who actually believe that Neo is the one actually survive the movie, it's mostly people who don't that make it to the final reel.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:50 / 24.11.03
dAb But again, most people obviously don't really want peaceful endings. They want murder and the death of one race or the other. Win-win situations are apparently beyond the scope of most people.

Not at all, the question is, why did the machines agree not to destroy Zion, then leave? They could have Neo destroy Smith and clean the Matrix, and have all those handy power sources plugged back in again. Sure, if they didn't agree then Neo didn't have to go into the matrix (though they could certainly have plugged him in without his consent), but he was in no position to know what was happening in Zion. And after he died, what was to stop the machines going ahead and destroying Zion as planned? I suspect even the Wachowski Brothers didn't have an answer for this, which was why it was completely avoided in the film. It wouldn't have been too bad if we'd had some suggestion in that final scene that the Architect made the machines agree to the bargain, but no.
 
 
abstractgeek
18:06 / 24.11.03
This is a good movie, if you dont think so you are stupid, you are obviously incapable of appreciating it. there are a lot of pretentious pseudo-intelllectual people who think they are smart enough, but give it up. you are stupid. i am smarter than all of you, i am better than all of you, none of you even for a moment deserve to exist even one fraction as much as i do. i am better than everyone on these boards, better than everyone in the entire multiverse. You are all stupid worthless creatues. And those of you who liked the movie are stupid too. you like it for all the wrong reasons. Only i can really appreciate it, not even the wachowskis, they are supid too, they dont even know what they have created. only me, just me the ONE. fuck you all
 
 
wicker woman
05:53 / 25.11.03
Our Lady: Two Towers--I suspect even the Wachowski Brothers didn't have an answer for this, which was why it was completely avoided in the film.--

I'm not sure how it was 'completely avoided.' People still seem determined to see the machines as the 'bad guys' and the humans as the 'good guys', despite explanations to the otherwise. So the machines honored the treaty agreement they made with Neo... holy crap! Obviously, people were by and large drawn to this board by having read The Invisibles; so how the 'good guys and bad guys are the same' theme can work in that and not here is somewhat baffling to me.

Anyway. I loved this film. It just worked on a lot of different levels for me... a straight-forward action film, a ramble through the lighter side of philosophy, reality vs. 'unreality', etc. Not everything worked, but so what? Maybe you went into it expecting too much. It seems to me a pretty good job was done of wrapping up most parts of the storyline; do we really need to see, or care, what happened to the Merovingian? He served his purpose in showing what rogue Matrix programs can do and are capable of.

This movie had little to do with gnostic christianity. The argument has been drawn out on other boards as to the orange cross at the end, but even if it really did appear, this is about the only symbol in the film that would point directly to christianity.

To those who are bitching about Fishburne's somewhat diminished role; let's see, he's just had his faith and belief torn down around him, the philosophy he's been chasing for years has been destroyed, the people he just got done telling 'We will survive!' are looking less and less likely to... yeah, the argument could be made that he might lose some confidence.

The Kid turned out to be a crap character. Bad actor, bad lines, blah. But he was onscreen for all of about 7 minutes.


Neo did not go through the same pattern as the previous One's. He was not simply a vaccumn cleaner, though that was what he was originally intended for. I thought it was pretty clearly implied that something like the Agent Smith situation had not occured before, that he served as a threat to both human and machine, and that Neo was the only one capable of stopping him. A touch hackneyed, but not a repeat of previous patterns. Neo stops Smith, peace ensues. And, as has been pointed out, it was really the only viable option.

I liked it. So *thppppt*
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
20:45 / 25.11.03
too much coffee man- My point wasn't that the humans are 'good' and the machines are 'bad', to the contrary up to that point the machines are following the emotionless imperative of doing what they see as best, both for them and humans (if the humans are plugged in to the Matrix they can't hurt anyone), remember, in the first film it is seen as an error that Smith has developed emotions and the desire for escape. To stop the war against the humans means the robots actually have to suddenly develop emotions and decide to be 'good' to the humans and let them off the hook.

However, if everyone in Zion is still plugged into an uber-Matrix (which consists of Zion/the Real World and the Matrix), as the Architect suggests right at the end of film 3, then the machines leave the humans alone because, without Neo to lead them, they still need Zion rebuilt to allow the 'subconscious freedom' that the Architect talked about in Film 2 as necessary for the Matrix to last. So they'll rebuild Zion, then the Oracle will let people know that The One will come back AGAIN and the machines will start going after Zion once more.

I'm wondering about Isaac Asimov and psychohistory. Would the machines really kill everyone in Zion if Neo failed/didn't go to the machine city? Are the machines allowing a certain size of population free in Zion because they can predict and control a large mob of people better than a group of individuals?
 
 
wicker woman
06:49 / 26.11.03
See, there's been a lot of talk about that, too (the "uber-Matrix"). The Wachowski's themselves (or at least them speaking through Keanu) have said that there is no 'Matrix inside the Matrix', and that particular train of thought is reading a bit too deep into things. I have yet to devote a 2nd viewing to Revolutions, but the only thing I recall the Architect's speech at the end of the film boiling down to was that anyone that wanted to be free would be allowed to go.

As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes the real world is just the real world. And sometimes, it's the Real World San Francisco...

And they didn't really devote a lot of time to Smith's aberrant behavior in the 1st film, at least not as the other Agent programs would notice; they seem a bit ruffled when they find him with his earpiece out, but besides that, no one else (in terms of sentient programs, at any rate) is around to see him wigging out. By the 2nd film, he's become a rogue program/virus, and is no longer able to be regulated by the system.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
10:40 / 26.11.03
The Wachowski's themselves (or at least them speaking through Keanu) have said that there is no 'Matrix inside the Matrix'

If true, then the entire concept of the trilogy is 50% more stupid than I originally believed. Honestly, is it too much to ask for a disturbing dystopian future without hope these days?
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:49 / 26.11.03
Our Lady: . So they'll rebuild Zion, then the Oracle will let people know that The One will come back AGAIN and the machines will start going after Zion once more.

Maybe the truce is based on the premise that the machines can look for another way to run the Matrix/Zion balance, rather than just knocking Zion down whenever it becomes large enough to offer any real resistance?

I don't remember any uber-matrix stuff from the end of Revolutions, can someone remind me?
 
 
invisible_al
13:10 / 26.11.03
Ok I watched it and was disappointed, didn't offer me closure, didn't get to see Morpheus and Trinity while they concentrated on characters who just weren't as good, Robo-Suit Commander for a start or Niobe. Fair enough if they'd been there since the start but they weren't.

But there were some intriguing echoes of what the film could have been, that scene with the two programs and their daughter in the Station was very nice and surreal. Was kind of a tease to drop some philosphy and words like Karma in and then barely refer to them but at the same time it was a very nice scene.

Also nice to see Bruce Spence still getting work as the Train guy .

The fight scene with machines v. Power-Suits was quite fun, but the GCI was better than the humans sadly.

Ok I'm reaching here, anyone else care to throw in some of the good bits they remember?
 
 
Professor Silly
16:33 / 27.11.03
Here's my take on what happens after Revolutions:

Everyone inside the matrix will be told they are inside the matrix, at which point each person will get to decide whether they want to stay, voluntarily giving the machines some energy in exchange for a prettier reality, or whether they want to unplug and help rebuild a new world where humans and AI coexist peacefully. Those outside the matrix will have to focus on clearing up the sky first and foremost, in order to allow for the reemergence of farming as well as to give the machines back an energy source independent of the humans still plugged in.

Meanwhile, inside the matrix, life will indeed change. The program will have to deal less with the monotony that Neo experienced as "Mr. Anderson" and more with the very Morrison-y idea of life as a game. What do I base this on? I base this on the one final Matrix project still scheduled to appear (besides the online comics): the new online game. Unlike the last game the new one will be more like SIMS, in that individuals can jack in and interact with others in an open-ended gaming environment. Afterall, the machines need some people to stay until the skys are cleared up...and while some might stay for the steak (hmmmm...juicy steak) others will need a better reason to stay. What better reason than "do what you will--work if you will, or paint what you will, love who you will, or play as you will...just do what you will!"
 
 
PatrickMM
17:23 / 27.11.03
dAB, I've got a few issues with your interpertation of the ending. I don't see the people in The Matrix as being aware of the fictional nature of their reality in the new Matrix. I think the choice that The Architect refers to is a similar one to what he talks about in Reloaded, how just the fact that there is a choice, even subconscious, makes it easy to control people. So, they may show people the nature of reality, and those who choose to live in Zion will go there, and the others will go in to The Matrix, and live like they did at the beginning of Matrix I, just completely oblivious to what is going on around them.

The ending of the movie is so shoddy and rushed that it substitutes just confusing and unclear dialogue for an intriuging open ending. I think that this is essentially as what happened in Matrix 5.0, it started out with giving people a choice, Zion or the Matrix, and becuase they had that choice, they did not question The Matrix. That's happened again, the only change is that for now, Zion is at peace.

However, I think the title Revolutions is indicating that the same events will play out. There may be a lot of freedom at first, but gradually agents will start again to control stuff, and eventually the one will come along, and things will be rebooted yet again. The entire movie is about the illusion of change, no one is really freed, they're just starting another cycle.

Not to insult your point, but I think the fact that they are relying on a videogame to continue the story indicates the big problem with The Matrix: it's too much a multi-media "experience" and not enough three really good films. There's nothing wrong with building stories around the films, but the films should stand alone. Say what you want about Star Wars, at least Lucas keeps the films essentially self-contained, and the supplemental material is not needed to understand the story.

Reflecting back on Revolutions, I've found two major problems. The first is that the Wachowskis assume you really care about the people of Zion, when we have absoultely no reason to. They have no personality, have horrible dialogue and have no style. The people of Zion are like the crew in the first movie, there are two many of them to get to know, so you don't care about them. But then to focus an entire movie around these people is an awful flaw. The entire mech fight is purely an effects showcase. There's an infinite number of sentinels, so they have no chance of winning, and we just look at these people who we don't care about, and are supposed to be dazzled by the effect.

Then, the end of the film is entirely based around the idea that having peace in the real world is more important than changing the matrix. The end of the first movie was incredible becuase it gave you the idea that the matrix would become this superhero playground, and everyone would evolve to another level. Before I saw Revolutions, I heard the rumor that that scene was in fact the end of Revolutions, which made sense at the time. Reloaded hadn't really followed up on that, but I was able to forgive it, since I assumed it would be covered in Revolutions. But, there was absoultely no attempt to free people. The Matrix itself plays essentially no role in Revolutions, it's all about freeing Zion. Peace in Zion is not a satisfying ending, because, at least how I saw it, everyone else is trapped in a regular life in the matrix.

And that's not to mention the fact that for this small group of people to get freedom, everyone in the matrix lost their lives. When Smith takes over The Matrix, he wipes out everyone's life in the whole world, and the end of the film makes us seem happy that that occurs. The whole film is based on a very juvenile real/unreal dichtomoy, the idea that because these people are in The Matrix, their emotions and ideas aren't valid. The lobby scene, as much as I love it, is really like Volume II King Mob at his worst, and in Reloaded it goes even further, like in the power plant sequence. Our "heroes" are really just self-serving killers, who assume that their reality is more valid than the people in the matrix, which is completely invalid, if you go by the first film's idea that the matrix is essentially our world, and everyone is living out their lives in the same way that people do here. The third film puts forth the idea that it's a happy ending because even though every single person in the matrix was wiped out, a few got freedom, and that makes it worth it.

On a completely different note, the film didn't work because it just wasn't cool. The opening Club Hell sequence was excellent, recalling the cool of Matrix I, but the rest of the movie was just like syndicated sci-fi. Zion is just awful visually. I love Reloaded because it's so stylish and cool, it's shiny and almost plastic. And the lobby scene in The Matrix I is the essence of cool. The third film won't be setting any fashion trends, and there's really nothing to look up to. The design of Zion was an awful mistake. You go to The Matrix for guns, leather sunglasses, and some light philosophy, and Revolutions failed on all those accounts.
 
 
Professor Silly
15:42 / 28.11.03
"But, there was absoultely no attempt to free people. The Matrix itself plays essentially no role in Revolutions, it's all about freeing Zion. Peace in Zion is not a satisfying ending, because, at least how I saw it, everyone else is trapped in a regular life in the matrix."

Morphius mentions in Reloaded that they had freed more people since the end of the first film than ever before. Just because we don't see them freeing folk doesn't mean they aren't. One has to "read between the panels" like we do in Grant Morrison's comics. The matrix plays a smaller role in this third film because Smith is taking it over--by the end of the game the matrix has become too dangerous for anyone besides Neo. Morphius, Trinity, and Seraph do sneak in for the Hell scene, and they barely get Neo out before Smith takes over the Oracle along with every other individual. Peace in Zion equals peace on earth equals peace in the matrix.

"And that's not to mention the fact that for this small group of people to get freedom, everyone in the matrix lost their lives. When Smith takes over The Matrix, he wipes out everyone's life in the whole world, and the end of the film makes us seem happy that that occurs."

When the matrix is rebooted the Oracle and the girl are returned to their pre-Smith state. I see no reason to assume this isn't true across the board--nobody dies due to the Smith infection...Neo saved them all.

"The lobby scene, as much as I love it, is really like Volume II King Mob at his worst, and in Reloaded it goes even further, like in the power plant sequence. Our "heroes" are really just self-serving killers, who assume that their reality is more valid than the people in the matrix, which is completely invalid, if you go by the first film's idea that the matrix is essentially our world, and everyone is living out their lives in the same way that people do here. The third film puts forth the idea that it's a happy ending because even though every single person in the matrix was wiped out, a few got freedom, and that makes it worth it."

Yes, our "heroes" do kill any who get in their way. It's unfortunate, but as explained way back in the first film any of them could become an agent at any time. In these cases they have to kill, or they will be killed. It's all part of the danger of jacking in--in order so save some they have to kill some. At the conclusion of the third film this hopefully has changed--no more killing. It all depends on what kind of relationship the two species work out. Again, everybody wasn't wiped out by the Smith virus, and probably just experienced the whole thing as a really bazaar shared-dream. ("I had the strangest dream last night that I was just like everybody else--a fed or something--and I wanted to destroy all reality. I watched a fight between one of me and some hip-looking guy, and then woke up." "I had the same dream!") For that matter, as shown in the online comic by Neil Gaiman, each person will probably be told about the matrix within a dream/OBE/white room setting ("Am I dead?" "No, you are not dead." "Are you God?" "No, I am a computer program, and your whole life has been lived within a computer--you can return to the way it was, or we can release you to be with other real humans.")

"I love Reloaded because it's so stylish and cool, it's shiny and almost plastic. And the lobby scene in The Matrix I is the essence of cool. The third film won't be setting any fashion trends, and there's really nothing to look up to. The design of Zion was an awful mistake. You go to The Matrix for guns, leather sunglasses, and some light philosophy, and Revolutions failed on all those accounts."

And yet it makes sense--inside the matrix one can look however they want. Outside the matrix one has to make real clothing, and what better route for a war-torn race than to pick the cheapest and most rugged material: hemp. By growing hemp in Zion (come on--it's so obvious) they provide themselves with clothing, food (the seeds contain excellent protein nutrients and probably makes up a good portion of that grool they eat on the ships), oxygen, and maybe recreation....

I do understand your complaints, though. The first half of this trilogy was so cool and stylized that the second half seems dirty and rugged by contrast. I don't mind this contrast, but I can totally see how others would prefer one to the other. Again, I really enjoyed the game and the animated shorts and the online comics...so for me the third movie pulled it all together. Without all these other components I can see how this third film would seem pointless and dull. Just goes to show who this third film was made for--not for the masses but for the multi-media fans. While the American box-office receipts reinforce this (as I predicted the second film turned a lot of people away from the series) the world-wide receipts show this film for what it truly is: something new and pan-cultural. If anything it just goes to show how out-of-step America is with the rest of the world.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:25 / 28.11.03
I think my position on this stuff is very simple. The concept of the Matrix itself is elegant, interesting and cool - lines like 'you think that's air you're breathing' are tremendously imaginative. The potential around that is absolutely massive. In the first film, the real world is really highly unnattractive and is the impetus for their revolution - it's the biggest evidence that they've been wronged. But fundamentally it's not very interesting. The world outside the Matrix is important as contrast to the life inside, but not interesting or cool enough to make it a particularly good place to set a movie. And - of course - the rules of the Matrix-like world inside are bent so often and so severely because of the nature of Neo that it ceases to be a place where tehre's any sense of legitimate threat.

So essentially in the first film you are presented with a world that feels like our experience of it only with elements that are much cooler and more interesting. In the second film that world seems fake, there's no threat in it, the outside world is just as uninteresting as before. Sci-fi by numbers.

If they'd pushed the plot in other directions - towards the Matrix rather than towards the real-world, i think it could very well have been extremely interesting. I loved the jacked-in traffic control room, and I started to wonder why more stuff like that wasn't being done - why - for example, they couldn't write a program that could be controlled from elsewhere but that looked like a person - why with Neo's help they couldn't construct a space inside the Matrix that smoothed the whole process of leaving it. And EVERYONE was interested in the prospect of worlds within worlds - even if we all knew that it was going to be extremely dangerous as a concept for the plot as a whole. Hybridising the matrix and real-life would have been interesting too, more engagement with the minds of the machines would have been interesting, a program as team-member woudl have been interesting, in fact creating a ship in a bottle and trapping the machine consciences in their own matrixed representation of the world outside would have been interesting. But they stopped thinking about it as a thing with rules that could be manipulated and rewritten and started to just use it as a plot device.

So that's my opinion. In a nutsell, Matrix 1 was interesting because it was about the Matrix. 2&3 were much less interesting because they were - for the most part - about people under attack by robots.
 
 
wicker woman
05:32 / 29.11.03
Our Lady of the TT:"If true, then the entire concept of the trilogy is 50% more stupid than I originally believed. Honestly, is it too much to ask for a disturbing dystopian future without hope these days?"

Come now, I think we have plenty enough of that already. And really, how much more stupid (and dare I say, lame) would it be to be treated to "Same game, nothing's changed." What exactly would have been the point of making the movies if there wasn't a resolution either way? It'd be like reading V for Vendetta and having the Leader recover from his gunshot wound to go on leading the country...
 
 
at the scarwash
21:58 / 01.12.03
See, dAb, the problem with your position on this film is that you're making that shit up. It's not there. Truly, if all the hemp stuff, and the extrapolations that you are drawing were actually there, it might have been a good film. Your personal Matrix is much better than the one actually on film, but you didn't film it.
 
 
--
01:37 / 02.12.03
Either I'm an idiot or a masochist (or, perhaps, both), but recently I was bored and, having nothing better to do, decided to see this film again. Give it a second chance, in other words. Sounds fair, right? I thought, "well, maybe all the negative reviwes you read beforehand tainted how you saw the film the first time". Maybe my expectations WERE too high. In any event, I saw it again.

Sadly, it is still very poor, imo.

To be fair, it starts off well. The limbo train station is a clever concept, and I kinda liked that train man guy, despite the little he did. The Club Hell scenes were great, very stylized and sexy, like the first Matrix. I loved the battle scene in the coat check room too: Something about S & M freaks in leather running around on a ceiling impresses me I guess.

What's with those two GM clones outside of the club though? The Wachowskis revenge fantasy against GM's rip-off accusations? H'mmm. Though GM would never say a line as bad as "Let me guess, you came here to die" (or something along those lines).

Then Club Hell is done, the Merovingian vanishes, and the film goes straight to hell, as it were. Once the Zion scenes start, I lose interest (especially the scene with Mifune and the Kid, the first one, which I vote as one of the worst scenes in movie history. I don't come to the Matrix to see shit like this).

The movie finally gets better when Trinity and Neo go to the Machine City. the visuals in these scenes are great (especially the mountains coming alive like some horrific HR Giger nightmare). The scene where we see the sun is great, and I loved that shot of Neo walking the path and encountering those cool looking spider machines. It was great how we could see the machines as glowing orange angel-like things, rather then how we usually see them. Clever.

Actually, my favorite image in the whole film is the scene where the Sentinels stop their attack over Zion, then begin gracefully floating above the city like giant metal squids. Something very beautiful about that shot... Actually, I've always found the sentinels to be cute, but that probably says a lot about me.

The hippy in me would have loved to see a scene where humans and sentinels are hand in hand rebuilding earth. Ah well.

Bottom line, if they had cut that Zion crap, given Morpheus more to do, and fixed the ending, this could have been a great film.

Agent Smith was good, as always.
 
 
Sunny
02:22 / 02.12.03
I haven't read all five pages because I just don't have the time or the will.
just saw this three days ago-by the way for people that disliked it so much you guys went out and paid for it real quick, did you guys wait in a long line to get seated too? if you know you're not going to like it why go rush and see it in the first days, it just seems like a fucking lame thing to do-did your friends out vote you in what movie to watch? whatever.

I loved the beginning with neo on the floor and the little girl there, had a beautiful photographic aesthetic.

club hell was cool, unfortunately I anticipated that King Mob(which actually turned out to be a King Mob mob) would have a actual role instead of just being one of the first obstacles in the movie. oh and not many people get to see their hero get shot up and killed more than once ever but thanks watchowski's. bastards.

the man v. machine war did nothing for me, I just got bored and hoped that the machines would do in those stinking hippies

why do the watchowski's insist on writing everything? do they not know that their dialogue writing is atrocious? there are people whose job is to write movie scripts well, I'm not saying that they should've given all the writing responibilities to someone else but that they not take it all on themselves.
 
 
Sunny
02:29 / 02.12.03
you paid money to go see this again? isn't that what bootleg versions and dvd rentals are for? how can you say its so horrible and then GO AND SEE IT AGAIN? were those few good moments in the movie that good?
 
 
Lionheart
18:30 / 02.12.03
Okay, I've only read the first few pages of this thread but I'm compelled to respond.

For some reason you keep thinking that there are 2 sides in the Matrix. The humans and the machines. It seems to me that the main point of the Matrix Reloaded was to show that there are actually 3 sides. The machines (the robots living on Earth), the programs (the programs living in the computers created by the machines), and humans (aka "batteries".)

From what I saw of the Animatrix I gather that the machines basically wanted "equal rights". This caused the whole war. Then humans blocked out the sun to prevent the machines from using the sun as their power source. So the machines decided to use humans as their power source. So they created the Matrix. This is where it gets weird. For some reason, in this sci-fi world, a lot of programs are setient beings. They're not like programs on this computer but more like the programs in Tron. So the programs live in computers created by the machines and the paradise for programs (not for the machines!) is the Matrix.

Uhm.. Oh, as explained in Reloaded, the "Source" is the main mainframe in the Machine City. It's basically the kernel and the server. It runs the Matrix, the other computers, and controls the worker machines (such as the Sentinels.) The programs are independent from the source. They don't have root access. They're just daemons designed to do a task. (They're also setient but but that's not important right now.) Basically, Neo gets his power from the source. It's what allows him to alter things in the Matrix. (Like when he pulled those weapons from the wall in the Merovingian's castle.) Now remember that the source not only controls the Matrix but also the worker machines (like Sentinals. Or Squids. Or whatever they're called.) Since Neo has access to the source he can do stuff with those machines as well. In fact he can control any machine hooked up to the main mainframe. This is why when he has "second sight" he can see the robots and the information going around in wires but can't see anything in front of him (like the spikes going through Trinity's chest.) Now Agent Smith, like all agent programs, derives his own power from the Source. But when Neo went into him in the first movie he deleted Agent Smith's purpose. Thereby Agent Smith still had all the power of an agent but now he could do things which he wasn't meant to do before. Like copy himself. (cause while normal agents have all the power of the source their purpose keeps them from using it fully. Or so I believe.) I've got to go now.
 
 
Sunny
22:38 / 02.12.03
I thought that the machines were programs? would it be cool if the programs could go out into the world and the machines into the matrix?
why didn't they do that in the movie?

ahh the only robots I ever cared about were Data and Lor, even if Data has gotten fat in the last movies.

what about that movie Tron, that movie was so cool, well kind of boring in the real world but still it was cool.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:01 / 03.12.03
Coupla things:
Right at the end the Architect and Oracle are having a chat and the Archictect says that the humans would be freed. This this strike anyone as a little bit inhumane? Neo goes nuts and pukes when he finds out what the world is really like, and he's already 'prepared' by being an outsider in the Matrix. (okay, he only 'goes nuts' as far as Keanu can act 'nuts', which isn't much)
Do this to five billion people at once and you're going to have a) mass suicides and b) five billion people acting like Cypher in the first film (who doesn't get nearly the props or analysis he deserves) and begging the machines to let them back in.
Oh god, this could mean further sequels.
And can someone explain to me what the word 'Merovigian' means? I've seen in crop up in Disinfo's 'Book of Lies' but without any explanation of the real-world context.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
12:19 / 03.12.03
Cypher was certainly our hero around here in the wonderful world of bury your head in the sand.

Merovingian was one of the earlier royal dynasties of France, either just after or just before (after I think) Charlemagne (sp?) which was also known as the Carolingian era. What's the context in the book of lies? Mine's packed in a storage crate somewhere so I can't really get to it.
 
 
Baz Auckland
13:42 / 03.12.03
The Merovingians usually crop up in 'descendants of Christ' conspiracies and other holy grail related spooky stuff.. the were around briefly in the 5th-6th centuries (I think. I have a midterm on all this tomorrow, so I should go look)... but there's almost no information on them, so no one really knows who they were...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:20 / 03.12.03
Lionheart, the problem is that part of the Animatrix is never referenced in the film, without watching it there is nothing in any of the three movies to suggest that the machines are acting out of anything except a strangely biological urge to expand and consume.
 
 
PatrickMM
23:32 / 03.12.03
Phex, I was under the impression that the choice wouldn't be like being unplugged, and then asked whether you want to go back in. I think it's more subconscious, like they make people aware of the true nature of the world, and then they choose. But, if they choose to live in the Matrix, they won't have the knowledge that it's not a "real" world. And judging from the state of the "real" world, I don't see a lot of people choosing to live there.
 
 
delta venus
21:02 / 05.12.03
So after the revolution, when the duracells are having their OBE/white rm interview about leaving/not leaving for Zion ... & what would that be like for us then? Like Barbelith downloading? Sounds like the options/stories given to Mason and Gideon in particular - while you're sleeping or flu-ridden the fairy angel antibodies come and tell you what it's all about and Initiate you.

& wouldn't that in Invisibles terms mean that taking the red pill would be like turning down Barbelith? To ignore the "truth" of the "Babylon 5 convention in a sewer" world where nothing awesome EVER happens and the people smell Awful and little boys with weird ears live up to the expectations of the Grizzled Cmmdr. and stay in the blue pill world where you can use the universe's cheat codes, try on the White Fictionsuit, do some wank magic etc?
 
 
at the scarwash
03:46 / 06.12.03
Isn't the Merovingian dynasty one of the founding houses of the French state? As in, Charlemagne and all? That's a reference that's always dodged me.
 
  

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