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Underground > Comic Books >

New X-Men #152

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Matthew Fluxington

18:46 / 26.01.04

It's probably just a red herring to make people go "it's the old version of Henry!"

18:48 / 26.01.04

Awright Matthew, let's you and me beat this thing to the ground. Entertain all possibilites that Henry McCoy can't be the white beast we've seen. The others can try to follow.

1. Suppose that Henry has lived long enough to see an even bigger picture than the one we're accustomed. Maybe he assumed control of Sublime's shareholdings by telling Sublime's followers that he was John Subllime wearing Beast's body. Maybe he's Henry only playing Sublime for the sake of controlling the enemy.

Although Xorn was an example of the enemy adopting a "good guise" in order to control the heroes, it's a bit much for Morrison to establish THIS without more backstory... and white beast's dialgoue is too riddled with clues.

2. Suppose that Henry was evil all along, and THAT was his secondary mutation, the ability to become a completely different person altogether. He used his superior intelligence to begin Sublime Pharmacueticals and insinuate himself into Weapon Plus. Over time, the two personas coalesced to become the Sublime Beast we see before us.

Yeah f'n right people.

3. Suppose the white beast is Henry's body, possessed by whatever entity possessed John Sublime, Cyclops and En Sabah Nur before that.

This's the one I think we ought to go with.

You got any crazy suppositions, Matt? I gave up a week ago thinking white beast was really Henry play-acting.

Spyder Todd 2008

18:50 / 26.01.04

One itsy-bitsy detail that a lot of people are ignoring. I'm not going to argue one side or the other, but when Jean comes out of her egg, she asks Sublime is he's Hank. And Sublime says something like "Hank? Oh, yes I remember, I used to be called Hank. But now you my dear(insert typical crazied villian voice and/or rant) may call me SUBLIME!!!!" It's not a quote, I lack the issue in front of me, but Sublime doesn't say he wasn't McCoy.

Matthew Fluxington

18:53 / 26.01.04

Also, I would think that the "'Henry', of course. Also 'Beast.'" thing puts the Henry McCoy speculation to rest - it seems pretty clear that Sublime hadn't considered that his resemblence to McCoy would be advantageous in winning the favor of the newly reborn Jean. Alternatively, he chose that body specifically to trick Jean.

Matthew Fluxington

19:00 / 26.01.04

Exact quote:

Jean: Henry? Is that you?

Sublime: "Yes...yes. "Henry," of course. And "Beast." But...I have another name now. My ultimate soldier, my destroyer of worlds...call me SUBLIME!"

He does not say that he's Henry McCoy. The dialogue sounds more like he's lying on the spot.

Listen, maybe it is Henry McCoy. But I doubt it, because every explanation for that strikes me as being totally ridiculous and overly convoluted, and it doesn't fit in with Henry's character throughout the run. For this character to really be Henry McCoy is too jarring of a transition, and I think that if it is true, it's just terrible storytelling.

yawn - thing's buddy

19:27 / 26.01.04

if i think about hank-beast in gm's xmen run I get this vision of a character whose always in the background, in his fuckin lab, trying to work things out. And most of what he says is to do with genetics, biology, gender etc. He' also been fairly confused throughout - unsure of his gfeeling, emotions, a bit slow to react at times.

When I think of Sublime in gm's run, I think of a character that has hardly made an impact - he's been painted so thinly, subliminal to the point of invisible - and I must say, the whole Weapon Plus program - for some reason, it seems to me like a non-story which hums distantly in the background: did I miss something? was I meant to buy other comics to get the full picture?

as for the issue: good but not as hot as 151: and ilvestri's the oly artist for this one suckas!

Boy in a Suitcase

19:33 / 26.01.04

BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!
BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!
BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!
BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!BAMF!

How cool was THAT??? (Come on!)

20:04 / 26.01.04

The Bamf-ing.... death by sound effect. Fucking brilliant.

20:15 / 26.01.04

LOL BoyinA - yes, it was pretty cool.

>> Wow, that's a new concept for Grant. Beautiful red-head goes back in time to save the world.

This also made me laugh out loud. Nice one! In this case, I guess Jean goes forward in time - we'll have to see if she goes "back" too.

23:58 / 26.01.04

I'm looking at the entire run as one big story arc, like Perez's Wonder Woman and Gaiman's Sandman, where a lot of things that were seemingly unrelated ended up tying together. We may not have seen the last of Quentin, as what actually happened to him is still up in the air.

Jean's been going through all the Joseph Campbell "Hero's Journey", Grail Quest, Sacrifice, Death, Resurrection, letting go of your ego motifs during this run. She's now at the point of having found the Grail, and needs to heal the Wasteland. So, theoretically, she should emerge from all this a much more together, more evolved, person.

The idea that Sublime is a mask of Apocalypse, or vice versa, could work. If we go back to Simonson's Apocalypse, he was very conciously seeing himself as a living manifestation of the Lucifer Principle. "Apocalypse" was just his latest mask, as he'd been causing problems for millenia under many different names and faces. He saw his purpose as forcing evolution by causing destruction and conflict, the tests to force Humanity in general, and certain individuals in particular, to transcend themselves and reach their potential. He had a very strong interest in Jean, then, telling her he could force the issue with her.

04:46 / 27.01.04

Um, I haven't read it in a while but in hindsight surely all that stuff about Quentin evolving into whatever was Magneto's justification for killing him before he blew his cover?

Also, I'm really hoping that Jean isn't going to erase anything that's happened, which is the boring obvious 'it was all a dream' ending. I don't really see much that's happened in Grant's run being catastrophic for the next writer. Magneto's dead, Jean's dead, Manhattan's in ruins - aren't these pretty much commonplaces in the Marvel Universe?

05:15 / 27.01.04

don't the all-important words "are these words from the future?" pop up with charles several times throughout gm's run, beginning in the very first issue when cassandra is communicating with charles via cerebra? i'm thinking that will definitely play some sort of role here, and it's very grant-morrison to give us a glimpse of the end, if not the outright end, in the very beginning. sorry if this has already been covered.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:48 / 27.01.04

With regard to the Beast's little "Henry... that was my name! That was what they used to call me! I am Beast the White" (sorry, LOTR gag) - my hunch is that Sublime is some kind of disembodied force who took over Henry at some point in the past 150 years, possibly over a long period of time. I think this *is* Henry McCoy's body, but it's no longer just Henry in there - in fact, most of him isn't there anymore. This works partly because even if it isn't En Sabah Nur, we have an explanation as to why Morrison has had Scot constantly go on about his possession by an evil spirit.

13:05 / 27.01.04

I think it's more likely that Grant has taken the Sublime character to the nth degree. He's sophisticated himself enough over 150 years to go from wing grafts that don't work to total gene manipulation. It's a likely progression for a baddie character in a broken universe.

Besides, Sublime is to Beast what Cassandra was to Xavier. Opposite. Beast experimented on himself b/c he was ashamed to be a higher species. Sublime experimented on himself b/c he was ashamed to be a lower species. It's just so apt that Sublime becomes a reflection of Beast.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

14:11 / 27.01.04

I wonder if they're going to beat Hank by devolving him again?

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

16:43 / 27.01.04

So, we all agree that Apollyon used to be Fantomex, right? It seems likely...

Hell no. I think there's no evidence to show any kind of link. Aside from vaguely-similar costumes.

I'll toss out some more baseless theories as well, though:

1) Have we seen the Three-in-One doing anything but standing in front of Cerebra? No. What if they are Cerebra?

2) Perhaps in figuring out what was driving mutants into overdrive (kick, mutant hate, the 3rd species, everything else he mentions on the wing of the plane) he basicly just becomes host to the Sublime "meme". By understnading the idea fully, he became a replicator himself. "Suiblime" might be (once again, from The Lucifer Principle) a "killer meme", that causes the evolutionary system to break down.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

17:20 / 27.01.04

I really love Flux for saying I doubt it [this Beast being Hank McCoy all along], because every explanation for that strikes me as being totally ridiculous and overly convoluted, and it doesn't fit in with Henry's character throughout the run.[/b]

This, six months after we found out Xorn was Magneto.

yawn - thing's buddy

18:29 / 27.01.04

and anyway - why the fuck would sublime want a body like beast's? it's hardly marvel deluxe.

19:00 / 27.01.04

"even the hairy guy"

19:49 / 27.01.04

The question is not, "Why would Sublime want a body like Beast's?" but "Why would Grant Morrison want Sublime to have a body like Beast's?" And the answer is, of course, because it amuses him -- nicest character in X-Men is used as face of evil; the Beast of Revelations gag; etc. etc. Plus, c'mon, he looks pretty kick-ass; I guess you could use the Blob's traits if you really wanted to be invulnerable / Marvel Deluxe, but then you'd look like a jackass.

Apollyon is pretty plainly Fantomex, IMHO -- it's weak to speculate that he's some other X-Men character who's had no bearing on the run before this, a la Archangel, and EVA's constant references to "what happened," coupled with his visual similarity, really ought to be enough to make it plain. If Fantomex had died, she'd say he died; if he'd been transfigured into something awful, she might find it difficult enough to say "what happened." When you really look back at it, nothing Grant has done has come completely out of left field -- remember how hard everyone was kicking themselves for the sheer brutal obviousness of the Magneto foreshadowing? Anyway, he seems to be a window-dressing character anyway, so who really cares. It might never be answered anyway.

I don't know who mentioned it, but I like the idea that this Wolverine is our Wolverine displaced in time, not Wolverine 150 years later. Again, who knows if that'll pan out though.

19:54 / 27.01.04

I don't think I could have possibly used the word "anyway" more times in one paragraph than I did in the previous post. Sorry about that.

I'm also still pulling pretty hard for Sublime to be Apocalypse, but that's mainly because I'd like a story in which Apocalypse was actually a threat and an intriguing idea, as opposed to a stupid-looking goon in lipstick who wastes a lot of dead tree every time he's brought into the book. And yes, I'm squarely in the "he grew his own Beast body" camp on a plot-mechanics level; I really do doubt that's Henry McCoy, though the theory re: his mastery of the human extinction gene would be a tolerably interesting path to have taken if I turn out to be wrong.

22:57 / 27.01.04

Beast:
I think it's perfect that any Beast from an alternate timeline would be evil! Weither this "beast" was once Henry MaCoy or not doesn't really matter much to me.
It could be a custom grown body... or that Henry was "possessed"... that 150 years simply drove him mad.

I mentioned the ROCK of AGES theme while talking about 151 and am more convinced that the stroyline will go that way with this issue. I originally thought that Jeans "death" was what caused this universe to go so wrong... but I'm wondering about the mention of QQ's murder.

Thematicly it would be quite nice if Phoenix Burned away all the events right back to the moment of QQ's death. There could even be a sort of Out of time confrontation between Phoenix & Xorn where the useless Magneto parts are burned away leaving only what matters . . . XORN.

Who's gonna really miss the stories that get burned away anyway?
Murder at the Mansion?
Weapon Plus?
Planet X?

There would then be some very fertial ground for the next writer to explore with Sublime, Weapon Plus, Super Sentinals, etc . . .

23:33 / 27.01.04

Well, an early posting of Marvel's June solicitations reveals that...

---

M
I
L
D

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

---

...the events of Planet X remain very much in-continuity:

UNCANNY X-MEN #442 & 443
Written by CHUCK AUSTEN
Covers & pencils by SALVADOR LARROCA
"OF DARKEST NIGHTS" pts. 1 & 2 (of 2)—With the threat of Magneto finally at an end,
Professor X sets off to Genosha to memorialize his greatest foe and oldest friend...something that
doesn't sit well at all with Wolverine!
32 PGS. (each)/MARVEL PSR…$2.25 (each)
Issue #442 UPC: 5960602461-44211; #443: 5960602461-44311
· TWO ISSUES GUEST-STARRING THE AVENGERS!
· NEW STORY ARC SETS UP A NEW X-MEN ERA!

NEW X-MEN #155 & 156
Written by CHUCK AUSTEN
Covers & pencils by SALVADOR LARROCA
"BRIGHT NEW MOURNING" pts. 1 & 2 (of 2)—In the aftermath of Magneto's rampage upon
NYC and the Xavier Institute, Cyclops & Emma find themselves at a crossroads. Should the
school be rebuilt? Should they continue on as X-Men? And how will it affect their blossoming
relationship?
32 PGS. (each)/MARVEL PSR…$2.25 (each)
Issue #155 UPC: 5960601772-15511; #156: 5960601772-15611
· TWO ISSUES!
· NEW STORY ARC SETS UP A NEW X-MEN ERA!

02:28 / 28.01.04

Thanks greatly Simplist.... God tomorrow just would not come.... yeah, I'm a little impatient..

08:19 / 28.01.04

Dear god, the first person who gets to utilise the potential left behind by Grant is AUSTEN? On BOTH titles?

At least everything is being left intact. I'm ALMOST intrigued to see where Marvel takes all this, the ramifications of it all staying in continuity are much more interesting than one big fat retcon.

16:07 / 28.01.04

Dear god, the first person who gets to utilise the potential left behind by Grant is AUSTEN? On BOTH titles?

It's a less than optimal situation to be sure, but on the positive side Austen's only on NXM for those two issues, and if I'm not mistaken those are his last two issues of UXM as well. His NXM fill-in also serves the useful function of saving Mystery Writer #1 from having to directly follow Morrison, which I'm sure no one wanted to do.

19:10 / 28.01.04

"His NXM fill-in also serves the useful function of saving Mystery Writer #1 from having to directly follow Morrison, which I'm sure no one wanted to do. "

I do! I do!

Speaking of Mystery Writer #1... does anybody know what the scoop is re: Rich Johnston reporting two creative teams for NEW X-MEN? Is some weird tag-team shit happening here? Is this being discussed anywhere else on the board?

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

23:18 / 28.01.04

That link only points to the Claremont revamp of "Uncanny" which has been making the rumor mill for some time. He's doing the new X-Men (not "New X-Men" book and a new Excalibur.

And a wave of absolute disintrest went through the crowd. I still don't understand how that man gets work. Actually I take that back... it just saddens me that he does get so much work.

23:41 / 28.01.04

This is the quote I was referring to, in the Mike Doran blurb much further down the page than the Claremont relaunch item:

<< a confirmation that the "New X-Men" creative teams are in place (and that's plural, folks) >>

Eh? It's a little unclear -- "New X-Men" could mean the title, or the books in general, but the "new" is capitalized. Is there tag-teaming, or is the "no Joss for a year" rumor true and the interim team is now in place? (I'd think so -- wouldn't they have scripts in hand for those issues fairly soon if they wanted to make printing deadlines?)

18:05 / 29.01.04

Yesterday's new PREVIEWS showed that WIZARD #151 has a piece of John Cassaday Wolverine art, further making it look like Cassaday is a lock on NEW X-MEN (which probably won't have the "new" anymore). Which further cements the Whedon/Cassaday rumors.

18:09 / 29.01.04

Didn't Ethan Van Sciver make up the Whedon rumours, though?

18:50 / 29.01.04

Not to contradict Ethan, but there seems to be a lot more substance to them than his post on Millarworld, I think. Just from my observations of reading lots o' stuff. One of the examples is Anthony Stewart Head was reported on aintitcoolnews.com as saying "I thought Joss was going to focus on my RIPPER series next, not write some bloody comic book." There have been many big sources, Rich Johnston being only one of them, who say this rumor is in fact, fact, and will be announced in 3 weeks by Marvel. So we'll see...

21:29 / 29.01.04

If, like Ethan says, its a case of fake-rumour spurring on an idea to actually ask Joss then I'm not suprised. It could be that the rumour got back to Joss and he thought... "well, actually I'd love to do that" and his people spoke to their people and so on and so on.

Looks like the "X-men" renaming (minus the New) will happen during the "Reload" in March. Chuck's fill in issues are still billed as New X-men.

22:34 / 29.01.04

Gaiman denies involvement, which leaves Rich's other rumour of Milligan for 6 issues - jolly good, say I, only man who can follow Grant on a title anyway, and apparently Bryan Singer's said he's going to write some X-Men, though no-one seems to know what.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

01:05 / 30.01.04

This is the quote I was referring to, in the Mike Doran blurb much further down the page than the Claremont relaunch item:

Eh, sorry... completely missed that.

You know, whomever does take over... after this much buildup it's going to be completely anticlimatic. Unless it's like Jesus or someone.

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