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Matrix Reloaded - SPOILERS

 
  

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Mr Tricks
16:31 / 04.06.03
This thread has been mostly entertaining...

I still look back at my movie going experience fondly and look forward to a 2nd viewing keeping as much of the critical analysis in mind as my stomach can handle...

The vitriol & such can stay on this board as it does with any other... it seems to me to be the lowest common denominator for internet forums in general. In that regard at least Barbelith is very-much like the rest...

at least we're not posting "Attn _________: I will pay for your bus ticket to my town so I can beat you" threads...
 
 
LVX23
17:18 / 04.06.03
Hee hee, now that I got you all riled up.... Who knew Ebert could bring out such ire?

My take on M2:

I feel it was longer than it needed to be and suffered from poor editing. A lot of stuff could have been shortened or cut out to make for better pacing. To wit, the junior apprentice Neo saved, the dance/sex scene, the Agent Smith uber-battle, the background about Tank. The pulling-the-bullet-from-Trinity's-heart scene was defintiely cringe-worthy and sooo Hollywood. At least she could've lain there recovering for a bit instead of immediately lunging up to kiss Neo like nothing happened. And as much as I enjoy the martial arts, one does wonder why, in a future of technological splendour, nobody seems to have made a gun that works better than a fist. But I really enjoyed the Uber Agent Smith battle when Neo starts using the steel pole. Sweeeet. I also really liked it when Morpheus dives out of the way of the truck, slices it with the katana, then shoots it until it explodes. Eat your heart out, John Woo!

I think the criticism that Neo, being the Messiah, should be able to do anything he wants and topple the whole fucking system, fails to acknowledge that he is still learning how to be that Messiah. He's gradually coming into his power. Now that he's journeyed to the core he'll likely take some of the mainframe power with him, just as the mainframe has probably copied his powers.

In general I think the Architect scene is the foundation of the whole movie and is why I went and watched it a second time. I think they did that really really well and laid out enough convoluted info to challenge the philosophical among us and piss of the luddites (no jab intended here, folks). The whole episode had a very 2001 feel for me. This may be a testament to my lack of critical comprehension, but I needed to see it again to figure out what was being said. But I love the meta meta meta hologram that seems to be emerging - the matrix within the matrix, etc... And I really liked the idea of sentient rogue programs running willy nilly about the matrix. Nothing radically new, I know, but it's cool to see them personified as "living" members of the matrix society. The Merril Vingeon (sp?) was very cool, I feel, though his spiel about cause & effect I think is motivated by his own short-comings as a program, whereas Neo seems to show signs of being able to transcend the limitations of causality...

Oh, and the Oracle was presented really well, turning to the "don't trust anyone" angle. I liked how it was tied in to the MV where he says that Neo et all are simply following the orders of the Oracle - they are not excercising free will in this sense, merely obeying the accepted authority of another rogue AI. Is the Oracle betraying Neo by sending him to the Core? Or does she truly believe he has the power to defeat the overloads? And why, as a program, would she want to see Neo destroy the Matrix? Wouldn't that destroy her as well...?

Oh, and fuck fuck fuckity fuck fuck.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:21 / 04.06.03
Well when the fuck did you all become experts in critical analysis?

Quite a lot of people on this board could pretty much be described that way. That's one of the things that makes Barbelith different from Fuckbake.com. If you want passivity and consumption, you're in the wrong room.
 
 
LVX23
21:16 / 04.06.03
I think the good people at fuckbake.com would take offense. Mmmmmm, consumption...

Seriously though, my vitriolic assault on vitriol, if you read it closely, was directed at the people posting short one-liners to the effect of "This movie fucking sucked ass" without any degree of critical analysis. It was not directed at the other posters who actually elucidated their feelings with specific examples and honest criticism.
 
 
bjacques
21:46 / 04.06.03
The groupie kid was gratuitious and a pain in the ass. They could have just gotten rid of him and instead dangled a spoon at head level, so that it would tickle Neo's ear.

"Hey, what the--oh, I get it...it's a spoon!"

And then, in the tradition of William Castle, ushers walk the aisles, tossing spoons into the audience.

"Matrix Reloaded...filmed in Percepto!"
Scream! Scream for your very lives!"
I miss the '50s. A little.

If the Merrill-Lynchian was going to be French, he should have been more like Serge Gainsbourg. And have Neo open his cassock to reveal a J.R. "Bob" Dobbs T-shirt.

It's just a ride.
 
 
bjacques
21:50 / 04.06.03
Or, in keeping with the movie, Murgatroydian could have looked like Michel Foucault and explained systems of control while giving the sex cake to a good-looking boy, which would have required slightly different computer graphics.
 
 
videodrome
02:58 / 05.06.03
And a funnel.
 
 
deja_vroom
11:55 / 05.06.03
Sex is about mind-numbing tedium

Well... I'm glad somene else said this. It kind of *had* to, you know.
 
 
MJ-12
13:02 / 05.06.03
They could have just gotten rid of him and instead dangled a spoon at head level, so that it would tickle Neo's ear.

Can I put my spoon in your ear?
 
 
Simplist
15:52 / 05.06.03
If you've been unplugged by the films, wonderful. But that says more about the unplugee's relative inexperience with philosophy and introspection than the competence of the film(s).

Fair enough, but what comes through in this thread (and provokes the charge of snooty elitism) is a pronounced disdain for anyone being so affected. Were I similiarly inclined, I could take the same jabs at readers of The Invisibles who found themselves "unplugged" by the experience; after all, it's simply a shallower (and in many ways flawed) presentation of ideas I'd already encountered and integrated many years before it was published. But what would be the point? Self-congratulation? Instead I was more than pleased to see this stuff hashed over in a new medium, and thereby presented to an audience that might otherwise not have encountered it, many of whom may as a result look more deeply into it. If the "philosophical" material in the Matrix films, however lightweight, gets a few people not usually in the habit of thinking to investigate their lives and selves more deeply, what's to complain about?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:12 / 05.06.03
The fact that almost nobody appears to have the critical ability or attention span to discuss (a) the film, preferring instead either (Reloaded) the people who have watched it in general or (Revisited) other people in this thread who have watched it, specifically?

You kids do know that you're supposed to look toward the wall where the light ends up, not the wall where the light originates, don't you?
 
 
Simplist
18:54 / 05.06.03
Looks like I'd better rephrase that to avoid willful misconstruing:

If the "philosophical" material in the Matrix films, however lightweight, gets a few people not usually in the habit of thinking to investigate their lives and selves more deeply, is that really something to ridicule or complain about?
 
 
Hieronymus
19:43 / 05.06.03
Not at all, Sapient. But by that turn, if the ponderous ideas in the movie are so good and yet the presentation of said material so lackluster and poor, shouldn't the undermining of those ideas be discussed in some critical capacity? Don't those ideas deserve to have the movie called to the carpet on the way they're exhibited?

I'm not understanding the argument that 'it has weighty heart' is some how a reason to disregard its shabby way of showing us that heart. Road to hell, good intentions, blah, blah, blah. But maybe that's not what's bothersome.

Is it because the criticism has outweighed, in this thread, the discussion of the ideas the film had? It seems to me what you're wanting is an extrication of those ideas, out of and or regardless of the movie, yes?
 
 
bio k9
19:50 / 05.06.03
I've never read a book before but I just saw The Matrix Reloaded and FUCK! I'm off to the library!
 
 
Chubby P
14:14 / 06.06.03
If you enjoy the themes of Man vs Machine in the Matrix films and Terminator films then check out the Fear Factory album Obsolete. It is a concept album about man being enslaved by machines and in the CD booklet there is prose that details the events between each song. DonĀ“t get the enhanced edition, just get the bog standard one since the extra songs actually take away from a great album ending. The artworks great as well! Just pimping one of my favourite bands. Hope no-one minds.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:18 / 06.06.03
I've never listened to Fear Factory before but I just saw The Matrix Reloaded and FUCK! I'm off to the record store!
 
 
casemaker
14:26 / 06.06.03
I would be eternally grateful if someone could use their web fu and find a still picture of Agent Smith cackling like a loon in the Revolutions trailer. I've tried my hand at it to no avail.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:09 / 06.06.03
Case, that shit is creeeeeeped. Like, Bob's face on Leland Palmer's head in the Twin Peaks episode where Maddy is killed creeeps. Yes. That creepy.

Did you know that sample at the end of DJ Shadow's Endtroducing is from that very same episode? Kept me up the rest of the night, first time I heard it.

(/End Thread Rot)
 
 
Mr Tricks
15:43 / 06.06.03
The fact that almost nobody appears to have the critical ability or attention span to discuss (a) the film, preferring instead either (Reloaded) the people who have watched it in general or (Revisited) other people in this thread who have watched it, specifically?

Hey wait-a-minute!!! I think I'm offended about that comment. I haven't seen "revisited" unless it's exactly the same the the original presentation of THE MATRIX. & I'm down to discuss the films strength & weaknesses outside of my personal enjoyment or lack there of, but c'mon what's with those snide comments at the tail end of the post? Of course I know the difference between the screen & the projector I even know how o build a pin-hole camera but . . .

er, what where we talking about?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:07 / 06.06.03
We were discussing the audience.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:25 / 06.06.03
the audience
Did I mention how much fun I had when I went to see the Movie? Caught a 10m show on the night beofor it's offical opening at an excellent 1920's theatre where there is still an orcestra pit and one of those silent film organs that some-one plays LIVE on saturday nights before the show. None of those dumb ass advertising slide shows!!!

Anyway the place was packed and people where PARTYING!!! The whole audience was doing the "wave" and just whooping it up while waiting for the previews to play. Of course we all chearfully booed many of the previews in anticipation of the start of the film. Did I mention that the Theatre was in Oakland where portions of the freeway scene's where filmed?

As we say in Oaktown... Tha Peeps wuz hav'n a hella good time!

how was your audience?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:47 / 06.06.03
They did "A Pessimist is Never Disappointed". It rocked.
 
 
videodrome
18:05 / 06.06.03
We were discussing the audience

Now Haus, be accurate. Some of us have discussed the film, others the audience, but you have been discussing the discussions.

Man, Haus is so meta.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:11 / 06.06.03
They did "A Pessimist is Never Disappointed"

is that like a show tune o something?
 
 
Simplist
20:06 / 06.06.03
I've never read a book before but I just saw The Matrix Reloaded and FUCK! I'm off to the library!

Well praise Jesus and Hallelujah!
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:56 / 10.06.03
Tank news.
 
 
waxy dan
13:19 / 10.06.03
Bit of a tangent. But just got e-mailed the access codes to extra areas in the website if anyone wants them:

"
00011000 - clip 1
10110110 - clip 2
10000001 - unknown
11010100 - Animatrix Teaser
11101001 - Trinity
11011011 - QT clip
....and now for the doozy....
01101111 - access to Hexadecimal entry panel - up to you after that!


Clips like: http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/cmp/page1.html

Access panel is a big Flash-based thing, that slides over the main navigation and has a series of animated flip-switches with a big ZION83NG printed on it. You have to click on the little yellow light right at the bottom of the far right hand side, a panel slides open, there's a grey square (again at the edge) which, when clicked, reveals a little green light which you then click to get the binary access panel.
"


Though who the hell's going to have a go at the hex codes I can't imagine.
 
 
Chubby P
13:45 / 10.06.03
Hex:

098CA701 - Desktops
EC306071 - Oracle's Kitchen
F03350B1 - Supervising Art Director, Hugh Bateup
0081CF5E - Visual Effects Supervisor, John Gaeta
D487A317 - A Detective Story Animatrix
98765432 - Reloaded Theatrical Trailer
a3b1a428
B25F33A6
19a642bf - POD Behind the Scenes: Part II
c1b49f13 - SLeeping Awake Lyrics
43e17ac9 - The Making of the Record -
8e217ac0
8e217ac9 - Cool image
f446a392 - same as above
a8c3f9ad - deftones - historical segment
d53d49f9 - bruises video
8D966F2A - POD Interview
A3B1a42b - Ship Model builder
23631BE6 - Enter the Matrix Game (not ready yet)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:39 / 10.06.03
So do you reckon you're going to see it?

I have to know impression this thread gives to someone who hasn't seen it.


Well, I think probably on the strength of this thread, and a few wise words from others in the real world, I'm not likely to see it, at least not in a movie theatre for money. Like Attack of the Clones, I may get it out on video and watch it with a friend, so we can make cups of tea and take the piss and add the phrase "in my pants" to every line, thus making the thing endlessly more enjoyable.

Basically, it seems that there is an argument that MR will open the eyes of people in the Midwest to Pyrrhonism, and that this is a good thing and to be encouraged. Well, that's cool, but I suspect that I've probably studied more philosophy at various points in my life than the Wachowskis will be able to communicate in 2 hours and 18 minutes, so I don't think I am likely to get much out of that on a philosophical level. After all, I could reread a Phil Dick book or the Invisibles, or Inwood's Heidegger for Dummies in the same space of time and presumably get much the same messages without the numb bottom.

So, if the philosophy isn't going to be a draw, there are the action sequences, but I've got an impression from trusted sources, including ultimately Runce, that these just do not justify the movie in itself. Which is a shame, because that's where the big-screen, big-sound experience might really add something, but overlong, overworked and ultimately overreaching the current state of CGI so that the cracks show too clearly seems to be a reasonably common assessment from the wise heads.

The characters? Well, the Matrix was never really going to be sold on its characters,and MR is unlikely to do so either. With the best will in the world, the characters in the Matrix charmed primarily instead of rather than because of their dialogue, and it's interesting that for me at least the characters who said the least were the most interesting and sympathetic - Switch and Agent Smith, most obviously, who got no and one big speech, and it took Hugo W a fair amount of effort to pull that one off.

So, that. And that the Matrix really never needed a sequel. It was a complete work, which ended with the bad guy defeated, the old order on the way to destruction and Neo a deity - the flying off worked precisely because it showed he could now do whatever he wanted inside the Matrix - to insist then that limits be reestablished in the interests of drama for the sequel seems a bit silly. Also, as Flyboy observed in da pub recently, the Matrix built very well - "what is the Matrix?" was a top piece of marketing. Unfortunately, it was revealed halfway through the first film that the Matrix was a sci-fi movie premise, and not a terribly good one. You can't get back the novelty either in a synthetic perceptual universe or the mystery of the Matrix, so where does the sequel go? Into fanfic, by the sound of it, and not good fanfic.

So, yeah, think I might give this one a miss in the theatres, in answer to your question, Waxy. After all, it would be yet more money into the pockets of monolithic Hollywood, and I'm still feeling bad about X2...I'll hang around until Battle Royale 2, maybe.
 
 
waxy dan
08:03 / 11.06.03
Chubby P You worked out the hex? These were released, right? My mate actually went through all the various binary combinations, please tell me no one did that with the hex. The sheer dedication would be quite admirable, but bloody hell... Thanks though!

Haus Thanks. That was very well articulated. There were such a variety of opinions, perspectives, and expectations, that I was really very curious to know how it all appeared to someone 'outside'.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
08:46 / 11.06.03
Having seen this 3 times now, I can honestly say I enjoyed this a lot. Liked the way it totally demolishes the optimisim of the first one, liked Smith, liked the fight scenes, liked the way the frenchie dude takes the piss out of the seriousness of it all, liked the big Soul Calibur-esque fight scene, liked the Col. Sanders lookalike at the end. Didn't even mind all the tribal shit at the start, really.

As for trying to attack it for having a fairly low-level philosophical subtext- that, in many ways, is the whole point. The Matrix acts as a bridge to the real stuff, which, speaking as someone who's just done a year course in it, is too fucking hard in places to be assimilated by joe public in the space of one film.

BOIL OUT YOUR FUCKING EYES! RINGU SPOILERS









That said, there are a few weird parallels between Agent Smith and the Sadako entity of the original Ringu book trilogy which sort of lead me to think the WB have been magpies again. In the original cycle (i.e. not the story in the films released in the west), the Sadako entity was capable of using the ring virus to be reborn through any ovulating woman who watched the video, eventually replacing all human DNA on the planer. Later on, I shit thee not, the world of Ring is revealed to be a comuter simulation (don't ask why) and a real-world clone of the doctor who snuffs it at the end of the first film has to enter it to save the real world (which is being killed off by a mutated cancer caused by the ring virus). And he has to kill all the Sadakos, or something.

Which I bet is going to be the plot of Revolutions.
 
 
Chubby P
09:04 / 11.06.03
waxy dan Beleive me I have far more important things to do with my life than work out the Hex. A quick search on Google and I found a messageboard thread with over 25 pages dating back to february of people trying to crack the hex. Checked the last couple of pages and one post had all the codes. Merely copied and pasted it over here. I don't know the source of them? Its probably in here somewhere.
 
 
Simplist
01:17 / 12.06.03
After all this back and forth about the merits or lack thereof of The Matrix's religio-philosophical content, it's amusing to see that the film has been banned in Egypt precisely because of that content. According to the country's censorship board, the film "tackles the issue of the creator and his creations, searching the origin of creation and the issue of compulsion and free will," which is not ok, as "such religious issues, raised in previous times, caused crises." Eek! (Others there reportedly alleged that it "reflects Zionist ideas, and promotes Jewish and Zionist beliefs" though I must admit I'm a little stumped on that one, aside from "Zion" itself, though maybe that's enough.) It reminds me of Hakim Bey's comment that the religious right are the last remaining members of Western culture who actually believe art has the power to change society.
 
 
TalkingHead
16:29 / 12.06.03
Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but did anyone notice during the 100-Smith fight you can see "Mob" spraypainted on one of the fences? It's all the way to the left of the fence, where it connects to the wall. It seems to be a nod to Invisibles.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
18:50 / 13.06.03
Well whilst I'm no expert on philosophy I'm sufficiently familiar with it to be aware of most of the themes the WB were using in the Matrix: Reloaded. I still enjoyed the film, more because I was pleased to see these familiar themes in a main stream action film, which is after all a genre I've grown up with and always enjoyed. I felt it was an excellent action film, a good science fiction film and a passable science fiction story.

I enjoyed the tour of the history of science fiction with everything from Jules Verne to the Authority, 2001 to William Gibson and of course the ubiquitous Dick (I just like the way that sounded) for good measure. Though it's a little sad that all little boys, be they WB, Joss Whedon or Kevin Smith still want to make Star Wars again.

No the can't write babble (I refuse to dignify it by calling it dialogue), though it was improved since the first film, and they do need to work on show not tell exposition (though the conversation with the Architect I felt was quite a complex piece of plot for the genre, or perhaps it was just over complexly presented). However visually, and I don't mean special effects I don't think they're given enough credit. Perhaps that's because criticism of the WB appears to be polarising into a love them or hate them camps.

I think the vitriolic posts against the Matrix (and they have read to me as vitriolic, though perhaps that's because I enjoyed the film) seem to be calling into question some kind of Philosophical or Critical validity that the film/s are supposed to have. There seems to be some kind of disappointment about it. It was just a film, it wasn't meant to save the world. If people are taking stuff away from it good for them, part of the fun is your personal reading of it.

This is where I make a fool of myself. Gender wise I found it quite interesting though I should state it's something I know very little about as I shall demonstrate.

In the first film the woman with the natty white suit (Switch?) I felt she was a sort of sanitised dyke figure, presumably they wanted the character to show their counter culture credentials. She always struck me as a kind of Jolly Roger figure with her teeth pulled. Though at least they managed to avoid the male pornographic fantasy lesbian that they had in Bound, the script of which I think they typed one handed. Is their a de-powerment of females thing going on? Trinity as already discussed in the thread goes from a strong female figure to the messiah's semen receptacle.

The second film there seems to be a battle of the sexes going on. Enormous phallic drilling robots (watching the Flight of Osiris the other evening I wasn't sure if I was capable of dealing with much more cock symbolism) heading for the womb like Zion (which I think someone refers to as mother in the opening meeting) with their legion of semen like smaller robot minions. Meanwhile the three principles attempting to save Zion are two gentlemen wearing what appears to be long black dresses and the only one wearing trousers is a female in an empowering dominatrix get up but perhaps as previously discussed that image has been made safe.

Actually reading this back I think it may be a tad simplistic and embarrassingly Freudian.
 
  

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