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Matrix Reloaded - SPOILERS

 
  

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8===>Q: alyn
23:48 / 19.05.03
I think the feminist critique is bound to come to nothing here. Everyone in this movie is window-dressing.

Capitalist Piglet:
You can be skinny and ugly, though.

There were all those belly shots, right?
 
 
Thjatsi
02:30 / 20.05.03
Well, no. The idea here would be that there is no outside, it's all Matrix, and the bottom, or phenomenal, level is as artificial/real as the top, or ideal, level, and the only "reality" is in the individual experience of it, which is right in line with the PKD/gnostic holographic universe concept.

This is certainly an interesting concept, but I don't think it makes for a good movie. If it turns out that Neo is just in another form of the Matrix then everything he has done in the past two movies amounts to nothing. It means that they killed all of those people for nothing, that they risked their lives for nothing, and that all of their hard work is ultimately for nothing. I don't want to spend three movies worrying about the characters and their goals only to find out that it was all bullshit.

What, like a super power? Like hacking them with his mi-i-i-ind? Maybe next he'll be flying around and doing superfastandmighty kung fu and it'll still be, y'know, "real."

Point taken. An alternate explanation would be that since Agent Smith has copied himself onto a human and used that to deflect the Zion counter-attack, the machines set up the sentinals so that they fry if they try to attack him. Neo and Agent Smith are connected, therefore Neo accidentaly receives the same protection.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
03:51 / 20.05.03
I think the feminist critique is bound to come to nothing here. Everyone in this movie is window-dressing.
Yeah, except we don't fly up a bloke's urethra to prove a point, do we?

Some are more window-dressing than others.
 
 
Salamander
05:06 / 20.05.03
The only thing that bothers me about Zion is, how the hell did they get all that equipment in the first place, what did they just find it and except that there was a place in such a secure area so convienient and never question it or move?

It doesn't bother me that most of the charecters are flat, mythic charecters are usually flat, I suppose thats were GM genious really was, he actually made round and fully dynamic mythic charecters.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
05:48 / 20.05.03
No, Rothkoid, the guy got to be the sleazy Eurotrash with the techno-ruffies.
 
 
CameronStewart
17:11 / 20.05.03

I might have missed this, but...was it explained why Agent Smith is still trying to catch and kill Neo? He's not part of the machine any more, he's been set free...is there any motivation beyond simple moustache-twisting "I've been cast as the bad guy so I have to kill the good guy" villainy
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
18:00 / 20.05.03
I was wondering that myself, Cameron. Not too much in the way of explanation as far that goes. Judging from the trailer, though, it seems he'll be the ultimate nemesis in revolutions (and he is just as much an anonmaly in this Matrix as post-Trinity-rescue Neo) so here's hoping there's some explanation behind it.
 
 
PatrickMM
18:11 / 20.05.03
I might have missed this, but...was it explained why Agent Smith is still trying to catch and kill Neo? He's not part of the machine any more, he's been set free...is there any motivation beyond simple moustache-twisting "I've been cast as the bad guy so I have to kill the good guy" villainy

I'm not positive on this, but I got the impression that he was trying to take over The Matrix. Neo is the only person who can compete with him in terms of ability, so he is first trying to remove Neo, then he'll be able to take over everyone else fairly easily.

Also, Agent Smith has become a virus, so his motivation is largely his own survival and increasing his numbers. He's become what he was talking about when he discussing humans in the original. He just goes around consuming things, without giving anything back. He wants to take out Neo because Neo is the only real threat to his survival.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
18:48 / 20.05.03
This is speculation, but I suspect he's not as free as he thinks. He's programmed to keep attacking Neo until he provokes satori or whatever.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:54 / 20.05.03
I might have missed this, but...was it explained why Agent Smith is still trying to catch and kill Neo?

I got the impression that Smith "hates" what he's become. I forget the actual dialogue but it seemed like "killing Neo" was the one thing he could still do that resembles who he was...
 
 
houdini
23:04 / 20.05.03

A few thoughts:

I thought the film was a very good sequel to, y'know, The Matrix. It had the same cod philosophy, leather stylings, action, "lite" characterizations, implausible plot holes, random kewl bits and, buried deep underneath, a kind of interesting look at an actual concept and a bit more substance than yer bog standard action movie. And, like its predecessor, it made me very happy.

It's my thesis that most of the really valid criticisms of this film are aesthetic rather than substantive. I'd certainly agree that they could've done to run the dialogue past Grant Morrisson or William Goldman before taking the shoot began. But I can't help but think that people who claim that it was shallow or nonsensical maybe need to watch the first film again and see if they could really defend it from such accusations.

If anything, I thought that the philosophical question "Do we have free will, or is it an illusion?" is a much more interesting one than the original film's "What if all reality was an illusion?" AFAIK, Descartes trounced the demon pretty thoroughly back in Meditation #1, while philosophical heavyweights are still pondering the notion of "freedom".

Aesthetically, I can see what's not to like. My personal bugbears were the dialogue, particularly Morpheus's speech in Zion, and the general political setup of Zion. I long for a future where people *don't* wear silly headgear and meet in big amphitheatres and get ruled by Councilor Tharquin or whatever.

However, I really liked all the fight scenes. Neo gets to remake the best bits of Superman we never saw, flying around like a comet, devestating a street like a still from The Authority, tossing hundreds of Smiths in the air like a videogame. Handling a character of that power level is incredibly difficult and I actually thought they did a really good job of it.

But it's the other characters who really get to make the difference. The inescapable problem with the Neo scenes is that he isn't in much danger. But as long as you've got Morpheus and Trinity to fight agents you can still have danger. The Twins were great, but I'd've preferred if another, more charismatic Agent had been introduced - Smith's replacement, maybe. The Agents as they appeared on camera just didn't have the screen presence to be intimidating, which is what made Hugo Weaving so great.

A comment on the "middle America" thing: I used to live in Topeka, KS, which is about as "middle America" as you get. Most of the people I knew there were smart, politically aware, savvy and all the rest of it. But I can't help but remember the time that Silas Hoover and I went to see 'Independence Day' on July 4th. When the movie ended and we were both thinking "What a cheezy piece of crap," the whole of the rest of the cinema came to their feet cheering wildly. People were holding lighters in the air like a Bruce Springsteen concert and screaming. I kid you not. Silas and I hunkered in our seats, wondering how "By golly, the Americans have done it!" could be inspiring to anybody. My point, I guess, is that there is a demographic out there for whom the Matrix movies maybe do offer a hint of something more, but I'd be hesitant to mistake it for lying in any particular place, which is what I think people take "middle America" as meaning. More likely, it means MOR-America, which is a bit different, IMO.

So, overall, the movie was not the perfect slice of genius that I think people were hoping for. But I thought it was pretty entertaining and delivered about what I expected. I'm looking forward to seeing it again in the next couple of days and that, to me, is the sign that at some essential level it "worked".
 
 
houdini
23:12 / 20.05.03

And a few more...

I really liked the Bacchinal in Zion. The emphasis on the sweat motif was what sold it for me, as well as the very simplified, traditional approaches to the cinematography that the WB's employed. It served to distance it nicely from the ultra-slick, grime-free world within the Matrix. I also liked the ethnically diverse future and, while I can see what the "Goddam world music" lobby are getting at, I can't help but point out that a lot of people on earth do listen to music like that. It's a nice way to unplug synth-pop and techno, which probably do fit more with the Matrix. I really had no problems with it.

The Merivirginian (sp!!!) and his wife were clearly meant to represent the Underworld in a Greek sense. Isn't the story of the request for a kiss from Orpheus or something? Can't remember my myth 101 offhand, but I'm pretty sure that's how that was set to happen. It worked pretty well for me, again, although I again yearned for a dialogue doctor.

Smith hates the Matrix. He tells us that explicitly in the first movie. My understanding was that by "destroying" him, Neo had pretty much trapped him in that world, which was already fucking with his programming and causing him to act in an unAgently manner. I could see how that would give him revenge motivation. But I agree with those who say the real truth about Smith is probably being held till Revolution.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:15 / 20.05.03
Well said houdini:

BTW...

Read These.

if you haven't already....
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
03:50 / 21.05.03
Ah, houdini, the voice of reason spoiling our quasi-flamey fun.

Thjatsi:
If it turns out that Neo is just in another form of the Matrix then everything he has done in the past two movies amounts to nothing. It means that they killed all of those people for nothing, that they risked their lives for nothing, and that all of their hard work is ultimately for nothing. I don't want to spend three movies worrying about the characters and their goals only to find out that it was all bullshit.

They're still fighting for control of the Matrix, it's just that the Matrix isn't what they thought it was. I'm not sure there would have to be an infinite number of Matrix worlds running, either. Presumably, the Architect has set parameters for the events leading up to Neo's choice--and we're not sure where those parameters end. At Neo's "birth"? When Morpheus offered him the pill? When Morpheus ultimately faces the same choice (this would be in my version, anyway)?

Which leads me to the question of why the slaughter of most of the human race was skipped over. I'm kind of thinking that they're like the security guards--not important because they're not "real." But maybe the production just didn't have the money for it. Or maybe they'll start the next movie with that scene.
 
 
Mr Tricks
15:55 / 21.05.03
I've been thinking about Persephone kising Neo after putting on Lipstick. I to was expecting "something" to happen from it & was wondering if the listick would contain a sort of virus or secondary program similar to the tracking devise incerted into "Mr. Anderson."

I've been wondering if perhaps it was that kiss that might have offered an "upgrade" allowing Neo to effect machine "outside" the matrix. This is all speculation but if we're to believe that Merovingian was a previous "ONE" & Persephone was equivilant to a previous Trinity, could they have been developing the tech to effect such an influence before Merovingian made a choice that er,... "damned" them to existance in an underworld?

Also, ZION:
Did anyone notice a sort of "dryness" in the enviornment of Zion that was transformed by the end of the celebrations by puddles of condenced moisture? I've been to parties like that!!!
 
 
YNH
16:05 / 21.05.03
This is all noodling mind, but maybe the lipstick was a program meant to make Neo make the "other" (Trinity) choice.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:28 / 21.05.03
I think it was just supposed to be sexy.

Been thinking more about the Mr. Smith question. Maybe he's the One, if the One is a control used by the Architect, and he's trying to merge with Neo to fulfill his role. Did someone say that already?
 
 
diz
18:20 / 21.05.03
Which leads me to the question of why the slaughter of most of the human race was skipped over.

probably because it hasn't happened yet.

the Matrix hasn't crashed; the Architect simply said that that was the only possible result of Neo's revolution continuing to grow as it has. Also, Zion has not been invaded - the squiddies just broke through the counterattack set up by the first line of defense.
 
 
videodrome
18:48 / 21.05.03
I've toyed on and off with posting since I finally saw the flick on Monday, but kept deciding it's not worth it.

But I hated this fucking sad, lame piece of shit so much that I just can't help myself.

Reloaded felt like it was written, directed and acted by a crew of Matrix fanboys. The opening action sequence prefiguring Trinity's not-death was flaccid and utterly unmoving, as if the WB fail to realize that we've seen this sequence a dozen times before, and that without a shred of context to ground it, the action is totally meaningless.

Unfortunately this characterizes the rest of the film.

A lot has been made of the dance sequence - all I have to say is that if those well-fed hotties are the result of a century of underground warfare, send my skinny ass to Iraq. I want to get in on the ground floor with that shit.

Considering that we're supposed to be saving humanity, there's a distressing lack of it in the film. The Oracle and Keymaker, stereotypes as they may be, were nonetheless a welcome shred of warmth. Ironically, Smith represents the most consistently human force in the film, and while there's a lot to be done with the notion that being a better machine/program also makes Smith more human, the WB failed to capitalize on it.

Same goes for the kiss, which was little more than a throwback to the lipstick/hard dick fantasies of Bound. Hustler gives the scene three-quarters erect, but I think they're shooting blanks.

A limitless budget hasn't done the boys any favors - hasn't anyone learned anything from Bruckheimer's oeuvre? The limited budget of the first film forced a lot of inventiveness, to the great benefit of the fight scenes. Characters actually felt like they were hitting each other in the first flick, but that ain't working here. The digital effects are terrible - as shit as Enter The Matrix is, it boasts better fight effects than the 100 Smiths bust-up.

No heart, no soul, just a shitload of elementary exposition repeated ad nauseum. If I'd taken a dump every time Morpheus explained his beliefs again there'd hardly be enough toilet paper to save my row, not to mention the whole theater.

All the Invisibles stuff - oh! They said 23! w00t! But hey, the Architect scene was a great re-make of Walking on the Moon from the end of Church and State, no? Will Neo die alone, unmourned and unloved? Oh, I can't wait to see!

Great ending, though. Dolly onto the human version of Smith, throw out the still-classic buh-buh-buuuuuuh cue and then cut to a blustering riff from a disbanded, has-been group that was never too relevant in the first place. Guess they coudn't get that new Audioslave single in time. Aaaaand we're out.
 
 
cusm
19:51 / 21.05.03
Rage Along With The Machine? Indeed. But I did like the Dave Mathews / Paul Oakenfold mix at the end enough that I'll probably buy the soundtrack.

Oh, who am I kidding. I'll just download it from someone
 
 
videodrome
20:32 / 21.05.03
Oh, and how could I forget the gem: "You don't truly know someone until you fight them."

Fuck. Off.

Gunporn, indeed.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
21:23 / 21.05.03
Walking On The Moon? Maybe the end of Minds. Maybe. But The Architect is a bit more malicious and unforgiving than Dave Sim.

And with that statement, we've officially veered into the strangest media-thread ever produced on this board.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
21:44 / 21.05.03
"You don't truly know someone until you fight them."

The most important line in the movie. Hands down.

A pure moment of P.K.D. Gospel in the middle of a great fight scene that illuminates the nature of Neo and Smith as well as the rest of the "battle".
 
 
w1rebaby
22:33 / 21.05.03
cusm: I'm told that the soundtrack in fact contains lots of stuff not in the film, in the style of modern "OST" CDs... which is a good thing.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
22:46 / 21.05.03
I am now going to marry videodrome. Fact.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:49 / 22.05.03
Still, though. That freeway scene. Pretty cool.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:51 / 22.05.03
probably because it hasn't happened yet.

I thought the other captain said everyone had been slaughtered?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
03:50 / 22.05.03
Still, though. That freeway scene. Pretty cool.
Apart from the bit where you could see where they'd removed car guts so they'd flip over, and apart from the explosions-rendered-with-as-much-sk1llz-as-in-Spawn, I guess so.

I just can't see where the 5x budget went, frankly. Or I can, I just can't see that it got much quality for it, CGI-wise.
 
 
The Timaximus, The!
04:34 / 22.05.03
All the Invisibles stuff - oh! They said 23! w00t! But hey, the Architect scene was a great re-make of Walking on the Moon from the end of Church and State, no? Will Neo die alone, unmourned and unloved? Oh, I can't wait to see!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that felt like Cerebus. And the 'six previous Ones, but this time something went wrong' element was like Tales of the Beanworld. And Morpheus v. the council was like Xenozoic Tales.

As long as I'm posting, has this (http://www.antiqillum.com/glor/cosmo.htm) made the Barbelith rounds yet?
 
 
videodrome
04:39 / 22.05.03
"You don't truly know someone until you fight them."

The most important line in the movie. Hands down.


Yes, that's all too obvious, as is the fact that the WB take it literally. Thanks for making my point.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
05:03 / 22.05.03
Can't believe they inserted an entire Christina Aguilera video twenty minutes in, for no reason whatsoever, and then edited out Christina. That's like 'Jackass' without the Knoxville...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
05:40 / 22.05.03
Aw, poo. Now you're just being grumpy.
 
 
CameronStewart
06:20 / 22.05.03
I didn't like the movie, but the characters are still fun to draw.



 
 
microcitoyen
06:49 / 22.05.03
Just a thought...

I think there might me an interesting paralell between the Agent Smith Virus and the study of memetics.
Actually, the fact that the renegade programs in the film were more interesting than most of the human characters could be a metaphor for memes that are taking over the world as the new evolutionary units.

***

Cameron!!! I saw you on YTV!!! How could you?!?
 
 
Chubby P
09:27 / 22.05.03
Anally Retentive observations.

In the first film Neo lived in Room 101. In the new film they go to floor 101. Any significance in this?

Also in the credits at the end it says Comic books supplied by DC Comics and used with permission (like they need permission since they own the company). Where were the comics?
 
  

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