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Philosophy of fan fiction - Question for Deva...

 
  

Page: 123(4)567

 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:17 / 10.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Jericho:
Your constraints and parameters *are* your universe. My point was that you may rely on plagiarising other fictitious universes, where dialogue is punctuated in a particular way, where cause and effect function in a narratologically coherent way, where people talk funny and almost never blink or go to the toilet. These are generic elements. Writing is not a naturalistic process.


Interesting. So your view of writing is directly analogous to a physicist saying that the universe is comprised only of the equations (the constraints) that describe it, rather than any of the contents, n'est pas?

So really, by your definition above, any time anyone writes anything he or she is creating a new genre, by establishing a new set of generic constraints ( a new universe). Kind of destroys the usefulness of the term genre, don't you think?
 
 
Deep Trope
12:32 / 10.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Jericho:
My appeal for you to focus seems entirely reasonable when you go on to enjoin "take my constraints, take my parameters, don't take my universe". Your constraints and parameters *are* your universe.
Don't be obtuse. Those same constraints can be replicated in a different fictional setting, without using the same names, exact relationships, time and place. Fiction is flexible. You don't have to replicate the joke exactly to get the laugh. quote:My point was that you may rely on plagiarising other fictitious universes, where dialogue is punctuated in a particular way, where cause and effect function in a narratologically coherent way, where people talk funny and almost never blink or go to the toilet. These are generic elements.Yes, those are generic elements. They are not distinctive of a particular fictional universe. They can't be plagiarised. They're communal devices. My characters and their histories are not. quote:Writing is not a naturalistic process.Unpack. quote: The existence of a galactic federation headed up by a female drag queen, or a Starship called the Enterprise, or a strange attraction between two men expressed primarily through a mutual antipathy for Scottish Indie Rock bands, are also constructional systems which create directions for play.The existence of a political grouping of planets is a direction. Calling it 'The Federation' almost becomes a reference. A space vessel on an outbound exploratory trip is a familiar but anonymous shape, a plaything. Calling the ship the Enterprise, and peopling it with a captain called 'Kirk' and familiar crew is plagiarism. In the case of fanfic, it's a non-commercial form thereof, within a social context which makes it a little more friendly, but ultimately, it's trespassing. quote:As you say, if you wish to, you can protect the ones you feel you came up with by citing copyright. A "creator" has legal recourse to protect his or her product if it is important to them, if they feel transgressed or traduced (and that's another one for the swear box) by what is presumably in fact a concrete act of adoration.

Nicht wahr?[/qb]
And copyright, you seem to suggest, is a wholely unreasonable and legalistic recourse empowered by an outmoded construction of mental work.

No, I don't believe fanfic is always adoring. Slash often seems profoundly sadistic to me.

And as I mentioned before, there are other copyright problems. If a writer unknowingly duplicates a storyline in someone's fanfic, a case can be made against them. It should fail, but it doesn't always do so.

So why should I put up with it? Because it's easier for someone to use my ready-made constraints than to write a novel which duplicates the expectations and then confounds them in the way the fanwriter would like to do in my story?

And why, if they adore my universe so much, do they write something which I can never read, for fear of miring myself in legal messes which prevent me from adding to my own sequence, playing in my own universe?

And don't put 'creator' in quotes as if it's a pretension or a nonsense. Whatever the process of creation is, whether it's synthesis or subconscious plagiarism or whatever, it's a difficult and often lengthy affair, and there are few able to do it well enough to interest us for any period of time. They have every right to protect themselves and their work, and to protect also whatever weird mixings go on to make the process happen.

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Deep Trope ]
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:36 / 10.08.01
todd: No, I don't think Haus is saying that at all. On the contrary, what he's saying is that there are pre-established conventions and parameters being observed in many pieces of work that we are not usually aware of (and which the writers may not be aware they are working within, even). Narrative, for example - I've recently been reading some Burroughs and Kathy Acker*, both of whom choose to either fuck about with narrative structure as we know it or abandon it entirely. But most novels operate within a very conventional set of rules. All those goddam blokelit and chicklit paperbacks operate within an even stricter set of guidelines.

Fanfic strikes me as interesting because it puts a set of parameters at the front of the mix, as it were (bad phrasing, but you get the drift)... It's only making explicit something that's usually going on all the time in supposedly 'original' writing, so I think to accuse it of laziness is, well... lazy.

*Interestingly, Acker lifts whole chunks of other people's texts within Great Expectations, the very title of which is a deliberate piece of 'plagiarism', a theme which features heavily in the book. It works both as something akin to sampling, and a way to make a few points about the assumptions and conventions and parameters we 'normally' expect from novels.

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: The Flyboy ]
 
 
deletia
12:39 / 10.08.01
I'm not sure the term genre is useful. I'm quite sure that it is replaced by "constructional systems" in the text above at a certain point of granularity, a term to use as you will.

And no, ce n'est pas. "Genre" in the sense of an identifiable subclass of writing, as opposed to "generic" is the sense of "unbranded", "snap-together", is a bit of a red herring.

My point is that Trope's work, and anyone else's, is made up of assumptions. Some of the most common assumptions of most writing are that characters speak in grammatically correct sentences and don't shit. Another is that, because plots exist in a manner in which they do not in "naturalistic existence", cause and effect have the appearance of exisitng but in fact are moving towards an established terminus. And so on. Some writing grabs more of this, some less.

If I write a conventional story set on board the Starship Enterprise which has never previously existed, I am using lots of constraints from the rules of grammar, syntax, spelling, dialogue, plotting...I am then taking on constraints like "Bones woul dnever tapdance" or "Picard has an RP accent with Yorkshire bits, but was raised in France". But I'm not writing the same story as every other story which relies on these structures'n'strictures.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:54 / 10.08.01
Deep Trope: your ideas about what does and does not constitute plagiarism strike me as remarkably odd. Someone taking ideas and characters from a work and then changing them, disguising them, is not plagiarism, but using pre-established characters to write a new story is? It strikes me that the former has much more potential for abuse - in fanfic, you're being upfront about whose idea it was first (many fics even start with a disclaimer, citing copyright and such).

I also think it's a bit odd that you seem to think 'adoring' and 'sadistic' are two mutually-exclusive oppositional terms...

But what really bugs me, what I can't get past, is your assertion that because you're a Published and therefore Proper Writer (and the assumption that one is a reliable indication of the other is another can of worms, albeit quite a relevant one), how you feel about your writing is how all Proper Writers ought to feel about their writing. If other people taking place in this discussion dare to suggest that they don't feel the same way and maybe not all writers do, your response is that they're obviously not Proper Writers... You don't really seem to understand how someone could love and care about characters they've created and yet not be quite so defensively possessive about them as you are.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:22 / 10.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Jericho:


My point is that Trope's work, and anyone else's, is made up of assumptions. Some of the most common assumptions of most writing are that characters speak in grammatically correct sentences and don't shit. Another is that, because plots exist in a manner in which they do not in "naturalistic existence", cause and effect have the appearance of exisitng but in fact are moving towards an established terminus. And so on. Some writing grabs more of this, some less.


Right. Although you are conflating two types of 'assumptions,' one of which I guess I would call heuristic (unconscious rules of thumb for making writing comprehensible to others, related to form) and what I would call, for lack of a better term, stylistic assumptions (conscious aesthetic judgements, like characters not taking time out to use the toilet), relating to content. Fan fic obviously foregrounds these stylistic assumptions, while work by Burroughs or Acker foregrounds the usually unconcious assumptions.

I don't think these types of assumptions are comparable. I'm not married to that position, but I think it would take a lot to convince me that fan fic exposes the same type of category (or constructional system) that burroughs or acker does.

Maybe there is a grey area between the two types of assumptions, but as the rabbi said at the bris, "you gotta slice it somewhere."

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: todd ]
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:22 / 10.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:
Acker lifts whole chunks of other people's texts within Great Expectations, the very title of which is a deliberate piece of 'plagiarism', a theme which features heavily in the book.
I've not read the Acker: How are the Dickens bits recontextualised? I mean, are they jumbled, are the paragraphs filled with her annotations on them, or what? Also, are the Dickens parts referenced, or acknowledged on the imprint page or thereabouts? I mean, does she state which edition they came from or did she get them from an online version? If the work quoted is public domain (as I understand it, aren't the rights for Dickens' works in public domain, but the rights for particular editions published reside with the respective houses - Penguin, OUP, etc?) can it still be called plagiarism? Unless the house that's publishing Acker also published the Dickens text she lifted from, in which case I guess it wouldn't be in their interest to pursue anything. But still; would ripping bits out of a Bartleby text, for example, be plagiarism, technically? It could be, from some viewpoints, bad form, but perhaps not plagiarism in a legal sense. Thoughts?

The Dickens bit makes me wonder, also: how is the argument here changed when out-of-copyright works are used? Holmes/Watson slash, for example? Is this something that could be fought against (in the way DT is asserting his view against slash/ff here) if the author is dead? Would it happen - assuming slash gets involved in some legal battles like the ones Fox carried out against Simpsons fansites a while ago - that slash starts tending towards more public domain subjects?

Just as an aside: is it common practice -or legally required?- now for artists using samples to acknowledge where they've come from (or to have sought permission from) and pay royalties to the original artists? I honestly don't know, though I think major labels are erring on the side of caution, aren't they? (Then again, I did hear that none of the 400-some samples on the Avalanches' album are authorised, so I don't know.) Would such a scheme ever have legs in the literature world? Or would this move kill off fanfic, if the idea of transgression is as core to the endeavour as it appears?

I can't honestly say how I'd react to having work of mine slashed. On some level, I would feel a little chuffed that it'd made that much of an impression on someone, but I would, I think, feel a bit uncomfortable with the idea. As I say, it ain't happened yet, so I don't know - but I do think it would feel a little close to the bone for me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:37 / 10.08.01
This is a bit off-topic, but most samples aren't authorised - because the idea of sampling is ideally that you render the sample slightly unrecognisable. Puff Daddy is a bit of an anomaly in this sense: he has those really obvious samples in his stuff because he can literally afford to.

re: Acker's use of other work - don't have my copy to hand but I'm pretty sure there are no credits. She starts the book exactly the same way Dickens does, for about three lines, and then it goes off somewhere else - but exact lines from, eg, the very start of Woolf's Orlando crop up too. As with other samples, the skill is often in hiding it, so that maybe it rings a bell but you can't place it. T.S. Eliot never credited the verbatim stolen bits in The Waste Land either (in the original), I'm reasonably sure...
 
 
deletia
14:02 / 10.08.01
quote:Originally posted by todd:


Right. Although you are conflating two types of 'assumptions,' one of which I guess I would call heuristic (unconscious rules of thumb for making writing comprehensible to others, related to form) and what I would call, for lack of a better term, stylistic assumptions (conscious aesthetic judgements, like characters not taking time out to use the toilet), relating to content.


What makes you think there is any aesthetic quality in people either shitting or not shitting? I'd say that was pretty fundamental. As fundamental a piece of narratology as using " instead of @ to denote speech...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:22 / 10.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Jericho:


What makes you think there is any aesthetic quality in people either shitting or not shitting? I'd say that was pretty fundamental. As fundamental a piece of narratology as using " instead of @ to denote speech...


People shit in Ulysess, which also doesn't use " to denote speech... One choice is aesthetic, the other strutural.
 
 
deletia
14:27 / 10.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Deep Trope:
And copyright, you seem to suggest, is a wholely unreasonable and legalistic recourse empowered by an outmoded construction of mental work.


Find.
Me.
The.
Bit.
Where.
I.
Write.
That.
 
 
Crow Jane
14:35 / 10.08.01
Oh do stop it. So unproductive...
 
 
deletia
14:37 / 10.08.01
To request clarification of a point I apparently made? Hardly unproductive, Jane.

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Jericho ]
 
 
Crow Jane
14:43 / 10.08.01
Oh do stop it. Your mannerisms are
Almost.
As.
Annoying.
As.
Mine.

My apologies, Mr Haus - I thought this machine had eaten my previous post. I am not really persecuting you. Merely a thorn in the flesh.

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Crow Jane ]
 
 
deletia
14:44 / 10.08.01
Or.
My.
Girl.
Friend's.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:55 / 10.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:
T.S. Eliot never credited the verbatim stolen bits in The Waste Land either (in the original), I'm reasonably sure...
But is this a reflection of the copyright laws (or perhaps even fair use laws?) of the time, or a conscious decision? Most times authors quote directly, there's reference made in some form - even if it's song lyrics. (Especially if it's song lyrics, funnily - ASCAP has seen to that, I think.) Once again, I ask; is this because it's using a public domain work? Would Acker have been so free with reappropriating Stephen King, for example? Especially given that he could well pursue her on the point, if permission hadn't been granted?

Could it be pushed, legally, that slashfic or fanfic that's been widely disseminated doesn't come under the fair-use laws? Would the slasher back off if pursued by the creator of that they're appropriating or exploring?

This (and this, too) article on sampling is quite interesting; is it perhaps mappable to literature sampling? It suggests that at the moment, law dictates that all samples must be cleared: obviously, that doesn't happen. But will it reach a point where it has to be? It cites Beck nixing a sample's use because Mattel wouldn't authorise it. I'd quibble a little about the unrecognisable bit of sampling, too - isn't it meant to be relatively obvious, in most cases, albeit sometimes unexpected? Moreso with overt vocal samples than slowed/looped/reversed/whatever riffs, but... ?

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Rothkoid ]
 
 
ynh
16:35 / 10.08.01
Acker didn't bother with Stephen King; presumably because even he admits that very few critics give a damn about his work. She did, however, lift whole sections from Neuromancer in Empire of the Senseless: contemporary work, with a major author and a huge publishing house. If I remember correctly, Great Expectations was banned in the UK while the legal bs was worked out. Her early work consisted of approriated life stories she heard while doing sex-work in NYC.

On to more interesting stuff. Trope genially reminds me that plagiarism is a legislated practice, rather than a metaphor. However, the term plagiarism is being used here to vilify as much as ponit out legal infringement. Plagiarism loosely defined is representing someone else's work as your own. Deva and others have pointed out that fanfic and slash often include disclaimers; and even you must agree that most folks won't confuse Star Trek fanfic written by Tom Coates in hir weblog with the real thing. If I approriate any set of characters and settings, and write a tangential narrative, the distinction seems different; whether or not its different in a legislative sense. The shitstorm around The Wind Done Gone was nothing more than an attempt at intimidation. The case was legally clear...

It's "patently disgusting" to make the comparison because it precludes original thought, something you're quite fond of. Your position is informed by your status as a legitimized creator. You feel protected by these laws. But do they serve any valuable purpose? I'm a pinko, so take that with whatever seasoning you need.

The guy who owns the trademark for "Freedom of expression" is a good friend of mine, but I digress. Deva gets into what it means to speak within a fictional world and how it may touch the audience. You say it's corruption, stealing, and uncreative. It is none of these things. If I write in your world, with your "little people," it's likely because you created an environment that got to a lot of people in a continuous and meaningful way: in a particular sociohistorical context, with clearly positioned characters, &c. With cultural stories like Star Trek, the resistive act is almost necessary in order to unpack its ideology and reinsert what's missing. "Making my own world" in this instance is next to useless.

Later you call the practice of criticism utterly pointless. This is terribly interesting. What Haus said notwithstanding: what do you suggest we do with culture? Package it, pay the producer, sell it, and forget it? I mean, I can write something that will have you begging for more. Embarrassingly, this is the same accolade accorded Stephen King. But it seems, er, unwise, to leave anything "packed."

Rothkoid, I bet, like most individuals who aren't incorporated, fanfic/slash writers would, at the very least, take down websites if pursued. Is this important though? I don't want to be financially ruined or imprisoned. Most folks given the choice, would pick solvency and freedom, right? Or are the mechaisms of intellectual property law subject to criticism?

Ho-hum, what's a couple more sentences at this point? "Genre" is only useful as a marketing tool, whether for fiction, music, or whatever. There is some merit to highlighting the structural aspects of a work. I'm curious why style is not as jealously guarded as "names of things."
 
 
moriarty
18:23 / 10.08.01
Wow. Entering the Land of the Ten Dollar Words.

I think the main problem with this debate is that no one person seems to be talking about the same thing. In the beginning of the thread we had hardly touched on what Fanfic meant, and without even a fuzzy definition it seems likely that everyone will just continue shouting at one another until they're hoarse.

Why would someone create fanfic? As was noted previously, fanfic is generally derived from serial entertainment created by many different people. I believe it was Deva who mentioned that it is seen as somewhat immoral in fanfic circles to base a fanfic on a novel. Why? Perhaps it is because the novel is generally one single work, with a definite ending, created by usually one voice. With a longer work, created by many different creators, the fanfic writer is exposed to the good and the bad. She can see that she may be able to make a better segment than certain creators of the source material, while aspiring for the quality of the best. This isn't necessarily possible with a novel, in which the good and bad are not so easily separated. Also, by seeing that a group of people have crafted the material, the fanfic writer can tell herself that she is just the next person in a long line of artists.

Once a creator works with someone on a piece, they are no longer the sole creator. Even if they hold the reins tight, a part of the person working with them will be evident. If I was drawing something from someone else's comic script, every dab of ink would announce my presence. And like it has been stated many times already, even a reading unlike the author's intent is in a way a reworking of the source material.

Since that is the case then the best thing for any creator to do to avoid misrepresentation would be to never let the work see the light of day. Trying to keep complete control over your creation after it has left your hands is an exercise in futility.

But all this is taking the argument to the extreme. A transformation of the source material that will never leave the mind of the reader or the desk of the fanfic writer is nobody's business but their own. The trouble comes when the fanfic is made available to the public. Are we on the same page?

Another problem is the indifference to the idea that Legal matters and Moral matters are two diferent things. A strong stance has been made that no one should use a character other than one's own creation. With the exception of those characters that would be considered Mythological and Universal. I'm sorry, but what else are Buffy, Superman, etc. but modern myths. Even Blake's Seven, a show which I had never even heard of before entering this board, could be considered myths. I imagine there are no more than a dozen characters, modern or ancient, that are known to 90%+ of the population of the planet. A myth is a story which is used as a touchstone for a group of people, no matter the size. If you exclude B7 from being reinterpreted, then any and all myths from throughout history should likewise be shown in their original form, with the exception of those that are permitted by the original author. Goodbye Ulysses. So long The Dark Knight Returns. Legally, assigning an arbitrary number of years until a piece of art enters the public domain has nothing to do with any moral argument.

On a more practical level, there are a great number of completely approved fanfic possibilities, depending on your definition of fanfic. Take Role Playing Games for example. TSR may not allow you to publish novels based on their worlds, but they certainly encourage people to muddle with them on their kitchen tables. Comic companies still prefer that samples of work for review be of their characters. the recent contest for writing a Thor story is proof of that. And what are all those losing entries but sanctioned fanfic? A kid learning how to draw might copy Calvin and Hobbes. Star Trek, so far as I know, still has a completely open door policy for scripts, but they must have some pretty good lawyers to pull that off.

Again, why fanfic? Recently, I've been toying with the idea of writing a fanfic involving Godzilla. I'm currently drawing a comic about what the common man would see in a world where there are giant monsters (kind of like Marvels, Watchmen, etc. except so much worse), and I figured I could take a stab at writing one out in prose, something I haven't done in , oh, say, 6 years. Instead of using the creature I have created for the comics story, I was considering using the big G himself and posting it at a Godzilla fanfic site. The idea of using this icon excites me. The myth of Godzilla digs deep to the core of wht I want to get across better than any monster I could create. There is a history there, a presence that I feel has been underused by the companies that own it. The original creators are long dead, and no one but the fans seem to care any more. Is it morally wrong to pick up the torch, to breathe new life into a myth that I feel shouldn't die?

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
Ellis
20:57 / 10.08.01
I think there are three different types of Fan-Fic:

The first is your atypical F-F where Buffy fights vampires. The characters don't exceed their parameters and the character dynamic doesn't change.

The second is where the writer puts him or herself into the story through a Mary-Sue character who is normally daring and heroic and saves the day and gets the girl/ gal.

The third is Slash-fic where Buffy and Faith have sex. This stretches the parameters of the characters and their dynamic and is

Re: Wide Sargasso Sea- the novel stays within the universe and parameters while still using the original novel as a jumping off point, if on the other hand it featured Ms Gladstone (?) being abducted by a secret terrorist group dedicated to fighting off alien invaders I doubt it would be as highly regarded.

The Merchant of Venice: It can be read and acted in different ways, some empahsizing the homosexual subtext between two of the main characters (whose names I forget despite studying the book for 6 months last year) without knowing the intention of Shakespeare can the reading or acting of either version be considered fan fiction?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:08 / 11.08.01
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
Another problem is the indifference to the idea that Legal matters and Moral matters are two diferent things.

But are they? Won't one's moral decisions will have to, at some point, take into account the ramifications of the law? And in terms of intellectual property - which is where this whole thing hinges - isn't the law fairly important, especially where it determines what is fair use and what is not? I'd suggest the two, while having separate problems, are both fairly connected. Surely the legal-wrangle-induced delay to Acker's Great Expectations being published in the UK shows that the legal and moral sides are tied together - the legalities had to be sorted as a result of the moral decisions she'd made, surely?

quote:A strong stance has been made that no one should use a character other than one's own creation. With the exception of those characters that would be considered Mythological and Universal. I'm sorry, but what else are Buffy, Superman, etc. but modern myths.Unfortunately, they're modern myths with copyrights attached; something which has not applied previously. Which will be enforced, like it or not, by the holders of said rights. The creations may have achieved a mythic status (although personally, I'll take Hercules over Buffy any day) but they're still controlled by - in the case of Buffy, particularly - rather large corporations in whose interest it is to protect their creations. Also, as examined earlier, I believe Ulysses would exist on its own merits (the references to the Odyssey being not entirely overt without knowledge of the book's schema, which originally wasn't for publishing, as I understand it) while Dark Knight Returns was a retelling of a story as permitted by the character's copyright holders; so no real transgression of right was made, only in preconceptions of character? Personally, I've never said it's a forbidden thing to use others' characters; I merely said that perhaps permission should be sought if that's what the law protecting ownership requires. Obviously, it's all academic depending on how wide the audience is meant to be, but given the ease of dissemination provided by the net, it's something that fanfic writers would probably have to give at least a passing thought to. Does much fanfic stay in the desk, as suggested? The prevalence of it on the net probably indicates that it doesn't, and so copyright does become a concern: the net's got much better distribution than most bookstores, I guess.

quote:Legally, assigning an arbitrary number of years until a piece of art enters the public domain has nothing to do with any moral argument. I still think it does. Still, I think it does: extend an idea a little and imagine that fanfic is cracked down on in an incredible fashion; imagine WB pull out all the stops and prosecute, or threaten to prosecute - wouldn't the up-for-grabs nature of public-domain works then become rather attractive? And presumably, if such an act is now legal, people will not have the moral qualms about slashing or reconstructing something than they may have done while that subject/series/whatever was still in reach of the copyright holder's lawyers? It could well provide a boost to the conscience of someone who otherwise mightn't approach such interpretations of work, which I think is important. As Flyboy suggests, the transgression is important for some writers - perhaps the security of being able to do it without being nailed in an overly-litigious world might be important for others. A bit farfetched, but possible.

I do think that the point made distinguishing novels from series/group collaborative efforts is, an important one, too; and explains why it appears that most slash/ff tends towards the series - there's more space for unpacking, as you suggest.
 
 
moriarty
09:34 / 11.08.01
Good points, but let me clarify my position.

The main viewpoint being held in this thread is that the creator has certain inalienable rights. The creator. Not the corporation which owns the creation. Therefore, Dark Knight Returns tramples on the creator's rights, unless Bob Kane gave his express approval to the project, which he probably did, although in all probability he had no choice, which in itself is against basic creator's rights. But now that he's passed away, take, um, that Gotham Earthquake crossover. Did Bob Kane give his permission to this project? He's dead. And this is partly what I mean by moarlity vs. legality. Legally, DC owns Batman. Morally, shouldn't Kane? And if Kane did give his rights over to DC, how am I disrespecting the work of the creator of Batman (if I were to do a Batman fanfic) if artists other than the creator are doing the same? Different interpretations are being made of the character without the express permission of the creator. This is Fanfic, at least according to the debate going on right now. Except this fanfic is legal, while others, presumably, aren't.

I can't comprehend the concept of the Law being a moral barometer for individuals. There are many laws I do not agree with morally, while others might agree, and vice versa.

To use Godzilla as an example, again. The original creators of Godzilla are all dead. Their living relatives make no money from their creation. Liberties are taken with the character by the companies that own it. The point being made on many of these posts is that these companies, which own Godzilla, have rights as its creator. Toho did not create Godzilla. Tanaka did. He's dead and buried. The creator is dead, long live the creator.

Legally, I have no right to create a Godzilla story. Morally, I seem to have as much right as Toho does.

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
moriarty
09:43 / 11.08.01
I love how this turbulent thread started from one little question to Deva. Heh.

OK, hypothetical question. The government decides to change the laws concerning creator's rights. They ask you for your opinion. How long does a creator keep her rights? Eternally? To the end of her lifetime? 100 years? Something else entirely? And why?

Also, how would you, with this power, determine co-authorship, work-made-for-hire, and the selling of one's rights to another? If a creator allows others to use her characters, by allowing other interpretations of her work, is she opening the field up to others to do the same, whether she has given permission or not? And if only people approved by the original creator are allowed in the creator's universe, what happens to their rights when she is dead and has no more control over their product? Are they allowed to continue?

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:24 / 11.08.01
Bastards, all of you. You knew very well I couldn't sit this one out.

Look, this is your total teacup storm, right? The Deep Trope position is largely an emotional one, and that's a part of creativity, and as such deserves a measure of respect. At the same time, it's true that fanfic is a relatively harmless pursuit, though in my inexcusably highbrow way (and you all know how much a I hew to the toffeenose approach to kultchah) I think good fanfic is a waste of perfectly usable, profitable, wider audience talent.

Which is fine by me, because I get to make a living without competition, of which there is frankly enough.

Haus's position, on the other hand (in so far as I can make it out - Haus, babe, you really are the king of the convuluted way of saying the simple) is also strong. Reading does indeed include an act of creation, and the division between that and writing it down is one of volition and recorded creation rather than of substance. But perhaps that's the point?

But Haus, since you don't seem to be prepared to do away with the author altogether, where do you stand on all this? I have a feel for your arguments, but not your personal position. What is copyright? Good or evil?

Personally, I'm never going to read any fanfic of my stuff, assuming anyone ever writes any. It would just muddy the issue for me. I know a writer who was unable to continue a series of books because the actor who played the main character on t.v. came to dominate the character in his head - he wasn't writing the character anymore, he was writing the actor playing the character. Weird, but true.

Teela, I'd be interested to hear more about your views on this, because I would have thought the leftish perspective would respect creative work (in that it follows a more proletarian model of sale of product rather than time) a little more, and especially given Marx' feelings about creativity at the heart of humanity. But perhaps I'm mistaken - new thread?

Oh, and hi, everyone.
 
 
Deep Trope
15:14 / 11.08.01
Teela: now yer talkin' my language...

quote:On to more interesting stuff. Trope genially reminds me that plagiarism is a legislated practice, rather than a metaphor.It's a legal practice which embodies a belief about creative labour which you may not approve of, but yeah.

quote:If I approriate any set of characters and settings, and write a tangential narrative, the distinction seems different; whether or not its different in a legislative sense. The shitstorm around The Wind Done Gone was nothing more than an attempt at intimidation. The case was legally clear...I was perplexed by that, because it seemed a quite clear legitimate use, but I never understand the actions of estates and copyright. I also don't understand the recent extension of copyright to 75 years from the author's death. Go figure. Actually, 'The Wind Done Gone' has a whole lot more baggage because as I understand the african-american community has always considered 'Gone With The Wind' a pretty racist book. Tangles, tangles...

quote:It's "patently disgusting" to make the comparison because it precludes original thought, something you're quite fond of.Weeeell, does it? I've already said that I have no problem with analogues; my beef is with taking the product of someone else's labour without their permission and building on it. You can achieve the same status quo and then transgress (or not) yourself. Why do you need the leg-up?

quote:Your position is informed by your status as a legitimized creator. You feel protected by these laws. But do they serve any valuable purpose?I'm 'legitimized' because I function in a way defined as legitimate. I worked to achieve whatever status I have. The hours and years I have put in to get to this point deserve some protection, surely? Without these laws, anyone can write in the template I make, and they may write badly (damaging my franchise, if you want to put it commercially) or well, in which case the work I put in in the first place will not yield the dividends it might because I've been supplanted.

quote:I'm a pinko, so take that with whatever seasoning you need.You imagine you're alone in that? But the relationship between the hard left and the creative has always been troubled and obscure. More info on your views here would be nice.

quote:You say it's corruption, stealing, and uncreative. It is none of these things. If I write in your world, with your "little people," it's likely because you created an environment that got to a lot of people in a continuous and meaningful way: in a particular sociohistorical context, with clearly positioned characters, &c.Yeah. You write in my world because I've done a good job. Complimentary...except:

quote:With cultural stories like Star Trek, the resistive act is almost necessary in order to unpack its ideology and reinsert what's missing. So in fact I haven't done such a good job...I've left a great deal to be 'unpacked' and there's stuff missing...so you will add what's missing. And when I come to write my next installment, what then? Suppose you've screwed it up for me? Suppose your judgement is bad, and what you write makes the characters look ridiculous? Or diffuses the sexual tension I worked to build over several installments? And because I choose not to write an explicitly sexual scene, I seem prudish, or my characters seem passionless? You've second-guessed me, changed my world, and I can't change it back. You've messed with the carefully plotted social balance, and messed with the situation in the real world. So now I'm looking for a new job...and my reputation may be damaged because the response to my last episode wasn't strong.

Extreme version? Of course. But possible.
But what's a 'resistive act'? That's something I don't know about. If this is writing as challenging the creative status quo, breaking the hegemony of the writing closed shop...come on...pull the other one.

quote:"Making my own world" in this instance is next to useless.Actually, it isn't. It's just hard. Which is the point, all over again.
 
 
nul
18:12 / 11.08.01
How long does a creator keep her rights?

Until they're dead, which should be obvious to any observer. Afterwards the estate or corporation or whoever can get the rights for themselves gets it. When that's done, they can run the ideas into the ground, milk them until they bleed then kill them completely. Really. I'm sure they won't mind. I certainly wouldn't.

Also, how would you, with this power, determine co-authorship, work-made-for-hire, and the selling of one's rights to another?

Co-creators must reach a consensus on the handling of their creations, work-made-for-hire creations end up in the hands of the corporation because you've agreed to it, and selling the rights of a creation to someone else voids you any creative control over that product by default. You sold your idea, and unless you buy it back, it isn't yours to play with anymore unless the new owner says so. That's capitalism in motion and I have no real problem with it.

If a creator allows others to use her characters, by allowing other interpretations of her work, is she opening the field up to others to do the same, whether she has given permission or not?

Not while they're alive, no. If they own the copyright, they can decide who gets to play with their creations and who doesn't. Once they die, it's no longer in their hands.

...what happens to their rights when she is dead and has no more control over their product? Are they allowed to continue?

As the person in question is dead, it has no impact whatsoever on the creator what does or what doesn't happen to the creations in question. They can go down in history as the worst villians ever to plague the face of the Earth and they're not going to climb out of their grave to rake your eyes out for besmirching their good names.

In the end, who ever wins the legal battles when the creator dies... they get to decide until finally the copyright completely expires and it becomes public domain, available for everyone to trash and make a profit from.

If I create it, and no one has me sign something that says otherwise, it's mine. All mine. Not yours. Not his. Not hers. Mine.

Simplistic philosophy, yes. But it's worked thus far in my dealings with outside interests.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:25 / 12.08.01
Deep Trope said:

quote: So in fact I haven't done such a good job...I've left a great deal to be 'unpacked' and there's stuff missing...so you will add what's missing. And when I come to write my next installment, what then? Suppose you've screwed it up for me? Suppose your judgement is bad, and what you write makes the characters look ridiculous? Or diffuses the sexual tension I worked to build over several installments? And because I choose not to write an explicitly sexual scene, I seem prudish, or my characters seem passionless? You've second-guessed me, changed my world, and I can't change it back. You've messed with the carefully plotted social balance, and messed with the situation in the real world. So now I'm looking for a new job...and my reputation may be damaged because the response to my last episode wasn't strong.

One of the things that most strongly differentiates fanfic from realfic for me is that it is conceived, written and read as on a different level from canon. (This may be partly from my own limited practice, ie I don't write in universes that are still ongoing, & also I write v little bookfic*) I honestly can't imagine a scenario where fanfic is surpassing the sellability of canon - partly because it *cannot* legally be sold for profit. You can change your world back, because your world is canon, and fanfic, precisely, does not aspire to *be* canon. Or maybe it does, but it gains a lot of its strengths and potential from the fact that it can't ever *be* canon.

And I have to disagree that writing Avon/Blake slash fucks up the delicate tension between them: I agree with everything you said about Blake's 7 but, where you say "that's why it's so good" I say "that's why it's so good... to write fanfic in."

*Speaking of which, I really, really hope you're not Diana Wynne Jones cos I'm in the middle of a Chrestomanci on the Liberator story (which, btw, is not as stupid an idea as I'm sure it sounds to you non-fanfic writers) despite thinking DWJ would probably be fucked off by it. She'll never see it, anyway.

Ellis said:

quote: And presumably, if such an act is now legal, people will not have the moral qualms about slashing or reconstructing something than they may have done while that subject/series/whatever was still in reach of the copyright holder's lawyers?

Just an interesting (to me, at least) & minor point, which is that Real People Slash (RPS - usually boy-bands) is legal if a "fiction" disclaimer is attached, which stops it being libellous: fictional-character slash is illegal under all circumstances except "parody". However, there's very little RPS and what there is is very underground, and a lot of (fictional-character) slash writers disapprove strongly: so no, legal fanfic has v strong moral issues attached to it.

And I agree with pretty much everything moriarty said. I think part of the problem with bookfic is that the impact of bookfic comes from the writing - the prose style, or whatever: it's not like telly, where actor, director, writer (costume designer, sound designer...) have come together to create a character, it's just words on paper, and it's harder to fanfic it without trying to write in the author's style: which is different from trying to recreate a character's voice.

And I want to explain why fanfic is better than realfic - but I'm tired and I have to go to bed now, so I'll just say in the meantime that I know a fair amount of people who write both, including a sizeable proportion who have moved *from* realfic *to* fanfic. (And yes, they were and are perfectly good and successful realfic writers.) Go on Nick - make that change!
 
 
Ellis
09:34 / 12.08.01
I didnt say that Deva!
 
 
ynh
09:34 / 12.08.01
quote:OP by Nick:
I think good fanfic is a waste of perfectly usable, profitable, wider audience talent.


I still think you and Deep Trope are missing the point on this. I don't know how to get across the idea that not everyone wants to be a writer, nor do they aspire to a wider audience. And that this is profoundly okay. Unless you're suggesting that because an individual can write engaging stories, s/he therefore must; and these must fly the banner of 'originality.'*

You also tell a fascinating anecdote that has an equally delicious antithesis: that writing for an actor actually makes the character come alive for some folks. Is either very relevant? Or only so to folks who fancy themselves the vessels of divine invasion?

quote:OP by Deep Trope:
my beef is with taking the product of someone else's labour without their permission and building on it. You can achieve the same status quo and then transgress...yourself. Why do you need the leg-up?


You see, moriarty and Rothkoid wrangled about this, and it gets mentioned in yr spin-off thread. So, for the sake of argument: pretend that you're dead. Does it still matter?

I don't see it as a leg up anymore than Coyote showing up in "The Simpsons," or Thor and the Norse /(pantheon)/ in Marvel Comics.

Fanfic need not be complimentary; I'd suggest that it may not be in a lot of cases. In those cases, the missing stuff may not be your fault; and here I refer specifically to the televisual story. Again and again, posters point out that TV gets more slash and fanfic. There are structural reasons that this is more likely, as well as the emotional/ethical ones Deva relates.

However, if your story touches someone but also strikes them as lacking something, you may as well expect them to intervene. You seem to be rigidly against this intervention in any form: criticism or fanfic. Am I worng for intervening, or are you for failing to include me?

quote:But what's a 'resistive act'? That's something I don't know about. If this is writing as challenging the creative status quo, breaking the hegemony of the writing closed shop...come on...pull the other one.

What?

The resistive act, or the resistive reading, is integral to Reader Response theory, Encoding/Decoding, IRP... any view of cultural consumption that allows for audience agency. The resistive act is the intervention I mention above: the one that accepts/understands the assumptions and constructions of your creation, but, being cognizant of it's flaws, (re)interprets it.

If the viewer chooses to log this reinterpretation as fanfic and share it with hir community, then it's probably important.

Now, to repeat myself, since you seem to take pleasure in separating a conclusion from its clauses: creating an entirely new world is both beyond the scope of the afformentioned act and entirely irrelevant to it. Or, in other words, what part of "in this instance" did you not understand?

Now, Nick, whatever do you mean? That's a very nice, whatchacallit, hammer you said, you have. I think I'll make me one. What do you mean I can't? Ahhhgh. Or something. Yah, new thread. Trope, I wrote, "I'm a pinko" cause the current state of copywrite fucks over creators in general. I also asked what valuable purpose the laws protecting artifice served. But perhaps this bit is better suited to your thread?

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Teela - O - MLY [NH] ]
 
 
Cat Chant
09:34 / 12.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Ellis:
I didnt say that Deva!


Sorry, Ellis: it was Rothkoid (hir post was right after yours so I got confused with my tired eyes.)
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:39 / 13.08.01
Far be it from me to come in all new and naive without even bothering to read the mammoth six pages of this thread (how *did* that happen? Don't you children have anything better to do?) but I'm gonna anyhow.

I mean, the 'creator'. Pshaw. Nick/Trope, does it occur to you that people who write fanfic may not even identify themselves as 'creators'? Apart from the obvious point that some people write for more complex reasons than to get published and make a million, fanfiction seems like a fairly interactive way of sharing knowledge/cultural capital with a community. Has anyone noticed how strong fanfic communities aer? They ain't just people off by themselves, having an 'imitative' relationship with the 'real' television series or movie or book or whatever. So the act of writing, here, is about something far more than simply 'creating': it might otherwise be about making friends, comparing philosophies, finding community.

(Okay, so lynch me now, 'cause 'community' is such a dodgy phrase and so loaded with suspect assumptions that, well, whatever.)

And I'm assuming we've been over this one, but how can you (some of you) be so rhetorically lazy as to be having an argument about 'fanfic' generally, and not specify which kinds of fanfic you mean? For instance, I'd argue that a good deal of sexual fanfic that exists is probably written for the writer to get off, right? And getting other people off, in a way that the Net can facilitate anonymously. Of course, there are all sorts of othe complications, around sexuality and closets and implied homosexuality, particularly. But the point is that the practice of writing fanfic doesn't happen by itself, in a vacuum. It happens as a community of witers and readers, who are mutually engaged in a process they *know* is different (and I would sometimes argue, better) than the 'original'. Which really does undo Nick's universalist and rather bunkum argument about 'creation' and 'the act of writing'.
 
 
deletia
06:41 / 13.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Rosa d'Ruckus:
And I'm assuming we've been over this one, but how can you (some of you) be so rhetorically lazy as to be having an argument about 'fanfic' generally, and not specify which kinds of fanfic you mean?


I love you. Notice me.

On a pint re: one of Rosa's other points, I think that there is a lot of truth in her chiding of Trope and (to a lesser extent) Nick. There seems to be a romantic conception of "writing" going on here, which is very 19th-century - all birth and original creation - along with an assumption that their form of writing - relatively juvenile forms like novels, TV scripts and so on - are somehow to be coveted. qv "haus, when you write your first novel" - which seems to posit this as a stage on the cursus honorum of any "writer".

This, I suspect, has interesting ramifications for attitudes towards something which, as Deva said, canjnot be mass-produced, mass-marketed, made physical and permanent (in the sense of being constantly in print), or be rewarded *financially*, which seems to be another criterion of the worth ascribed to the written object...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:54 / 13.08.01
Thanks for the pointer, Teela. Been a while since I was anywhere near versed in this stuff. Makes more sense theoretically, but...

I can't help but feel that you're dignifying what is essentially an action undertaken without thought as to the rights, wrongs, implications and ethical conundrums by theorising its rightness into an existing framework. I suspect the majority of fanfic writers are what the law would call 'reckless' as to the surrounding theory and practice. Maybe that's unfair.

I completely take your point that not everyone wants to be a writer - I'm quite grateful for that, actually - but it was a purely selfish statement. When I meet someone who writes well, I just want to read more of their stuff. I don't care what they want...and I'm amazed that the talents doesn't produce in them the same absolute addiction that it does in me. Perhaps that's something else fanfic writing does - allow a degree of distance so that you don't get swallowed whole by what Al Alvarez calls 'the Rat'.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:54 / 13.08.01
One thing that simultaneously fascinates and baffles me is that both Nick, Trope and a few other people keep asking "why write fanfic?" - in a manner that suggests it's something that needs to be justified. You might as well ask why anyone writes any kind of fiction?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:54 / 13.08.01
I've just seen this post. Haus, you have roused my wrath. Well, not really. I'm actually a bit boggled.

quote:There seems to be a romantic conception of "writing" going on here, which is very 19th-century - all birth and original creationWhich is how it feels. Which is as important as a theoretical position based on the very Enlightenment Era notions of reason and theory having sway over all other myths.

I suppose the notion that writing and reading are immanent, non-verbal experiences shared through the verbal medium will get short shrift? And yet I wonder, sometimes...

quote:along with an assumption that their form of writing - relatively juvenile forms like novels, TV scripts and so on - are somehow to be coveted.Oh, pshaw. Things of beauty and acts of beauty are admirable. At least, I find them so. I'm just as happy looking at Klee and Braques as I am at Tischen, but I don't throw out the Tischens, now do I? 'Juvenile' is a fatuously teleological description, weighted and contingent. It's the kind of thing which gives me a distrust of Theory as a whole. Which, as I may have mentioned, strikes me as a weirdly analysis-based, Enlightenment Project phenomenon, in and of itself startlingly outdated.

quote:qv "haus, when you write your first novel" - which seems to posit this as a stage on the cursus honorum of any "writer".A phrase your editor will remove from the Author's Preface.

quote:This, I suspect, has interesting ramifications for attitudes towards something which, as Deva said, canjnot be mass-produced, mass-marketed, made physical and permanent (in the sense of being constantly in print), or be rewarded *financially*, which seems to be another criterion of the worth ascribed to the written object... Deva described fanfic as 'scribbling in the margins'. That's fine by me. As long as what's written in the margins doesn't obscure what's on the page. But I don't understand, and I am oddly fascinated by, anyone who feels the need to write huge amounts in the margins and never produce the initial age. And I can't shake the feeling that it's parasitic.

My veneration for financial reward derives (apart from a desire to keep myself in cornflakes) from the understanding of how bloody hard it is to get published or, in my case, commissioned. It's a bloody nightmare. So if someone's getting paid, I know that they've been through it, survived it, and managed to come out alive. perhaps it's an atavistic desire to suffer for art. I have no idea. But I'm sure it adds to the unease I have about fanfic, which sidesteps the process and gets straight to the cream.
 
 
deletia
08:54 / 13.08.01
Oh, so it's a combination of "Survivor"-style endurance and due-paying? Right. Sorry.

And "juvenile" - Lat. "iuvenis" - a young man. The novel has been around in its present form for a fly's fart of the history of writing. I don't see why it is held up as the *standard*, as it so often is.
 
  

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