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Philosophy of fan fiction - Question for Deva...

 
  

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Ellis
20:27 / 06.08.01
Hey Deva, I would have emailed you or Private messaged you, but your profile thang won't let me.


How can you decide where 'fanfiction' begins and 'literature', 'textual criticism' or 'multiple authorship' ends, without recourse to the law of copyright or the hierarchy of institutions and genres? Is Jean Rhys's Wide Sargasso Sea fanfiction, or James Joyce's Ulysses

Why would Ulysses be considered fan fiction?
 
 
Dee Vapr
09:22 / 07.08.01
I would have thought she meant how it uses Homer's original work as a hidden plot structure, although this is the rather more obscure end of the scale if yr talking about pure plagiarism...
 
 
Cat Chant
09:22 / 07.08.01
Pretty much what Dee said, I think (and there's a fair amount of media fanfic whose links to the original fandom are almost as obscure, eg Penny Dreadful's "The Killer of Dole Nu Lin" in the B7 print zine ttba - tho' few fanfic stories which are as hard to read as Ulysses, I admit).

Anyway, yes. 'Ulysses' is very much on the far end of the scale from media fanfiction, since it doesn't stay within the same universe or use exactly the same characters as its original "canon" - but, like fanfiction, it's self-consciously "parasitic" on a specific earlier work and (to some extent) only really makes sense to people who are familiar with Homer's Odyssey - just like K/S only makes sense to people who are familiar with Star Trek. But since the Odyssey is one of the "foundational texts of Western literature" and Star Trek: TOS is "TV sci-fi crap", Joyce is seen as brilliantly clever and K/S writers are seen as unoriginal saddoes.

Down with the divide between high & low culture!

(I'm really excited that I've started a thread, btw.)

And sorry about the no e-mail/private message thing, but I have can only cope with around the volume of e-mail I'm getting now. How do the private messages work?
 
 
Ellis
09:22 / 07.08.01
D'oh!

Thanks for the reply

Private messages, when turned on, means that you get an email from Barbelith saying "You have a private message from whoever", you can read it in the email or go to your profile to read it.

You should be able to turn the feature on and off from your Profile screen.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:22 / 07.08.01
Just a question, though I think it could be important: isn't it the level of polish that determines if something's fanfic or not? I always equated fanfic as being - and this isn't commensurate with being sad, either - the production of a fan; of someone writing in obvious homage without necessarily offering anything outside the realm of interpretation of the original work. It's in the same universe. I'm a bit hazy on the definition, that's all. I'm assuming that it means "fiction produced by a fan of x" - is this how most people would describe it?

Also; in some way, wouldn't anything written by someone who's not the object/character/setting's creator be fanfic, in a way? What I mean is this: does any Star Trek script not written by Gene Roddenberry become fanfic by default? Or any Bond story not authored by Ian Fleming? Can writers, in writing about recurrent characters across several books, say, be thought of as writing fanfic based on their own work? Is anyone who writes for long established comic characters (Superman or Batman, say) considered a writer of fanfic, or a separate identity. I guess I'm wondering if Frank Miller or Peter Carey or James Joyce or James Lee Burke would smack you in the face if you suggested they were writing in a parasitic or fan mode?

I guess this more relates to the idea of the _thing_ in a work - the character, the setting, the ethos, whatever - taking on a life of its own outside the text; does the author become irrelevant when the creation has occurred? Is everything, to a certain extent, public domain?

Fuck, I need tea.

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Rothkoid ]
 
 
Jack Fear
12:00 / 07.08.01
Myself, I see the divide between fanfic and "proper" fiction as having more to do with the purpose for using the referent.

That is: whereas Wide Sargasso Sea uses Jane Eyre as a jumping-off point to explore assumptions about colonialism, madness, and gender that go unexamined in the original work, X-Files fanfic tends (though not invariably) to explore nothing more or less than The X-Files itself, with all its attendant subtexts.

The central themes of Wide Sargasso Sea are not inseparable from its referent: one could, if one chose, write a novel about colonialism and madness without using the conceits of Jane Eyre. But you can't write X-Files fanfic without The X-Files. The primary mode of referentiality in what we usually call "fanfic" is self referentiality.

Fabulous article, BTW, Deva. I disagree with practically everything you've written, but it's just wonderfully done. The prospect of writing a counter-article, as we'd discussed, now seems horrendously daunting, since I've no theory background to speak of--

--but I still can't help wonder if non-Blake's 7 erotica written by you might not be... (better? truer? more authentic?)than your fanfic--simply because it would less BBC in it, and more of you.
 
 
Rialto
12:09 / 07.08.01
Jack, doesn't your definition of fan-fiction exclude almost all slash fic? Or does it depend on to what extent you see the 'subtexts' that inform the 'text' of teh slash as being integral parts of the original franchise/work?
 
 
Jack Fear
12:28 / 07.08.01
No and Yes, in that order.

Slash depend for its impact upon the context of the referent and the pre-established relationship between the characters. A story about some guy using his prosthetic arm to fist-fuck some other guy is a curiosity. But if it's Krycek and Mulder in the context of The X-Files, it gains power by its trangressive nature--by the way it bends the "rules" of the show, by the assumptions it makes about the characters and their relationship, by the way it turns whispered subtext into text.

The text is relationship: the subtext is sex. Slash assumes, in good Freudian fashion, that any relationship between characters--friendly or adversarial, same-gender or cross-gender--has a sexual subtext.

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
Rialto
12:32 / 07.08.01
So you don't think that a platonic ideal of slash fiction might exist which uses X-Files/Buffy/Blake's 7 as a jumping-off point to explore assumptions about genre conventions, gender and expectations of heteronormative privilege might be possible? Regardless of whether it's actually been achieved yet...
 
 
Cat Chant
14:55 / 07.08.01
Oooh, this is all interesting stuff.

And Jack Fear, you have nothing to fear, since I think this stuff about the purpose of the referent - also brought up by Rothkoid, I think - is a big problem. Bring on the counter-article! (And thanks for the compliments, I am blushing. And bouncing.)

Rothkoid: I think some of Diana Wynne Jones's later Chrestomanci stories are Chrestomanci fanfic, but I'm sure I'm the only person who does think so. (And yes, I think long-running multi-authored things can fall into fanfic: eg Milligan's Shade is to some extent fanfic on Ditko's Shade...)

Does fanfic aspire to change anything other than its referent? Hmmm... I need to think about that one, I think you may have hit on something. I did write a short story "Relative Programming" (for a forthcoming print zine, "I, Mutoid") for explicitly political reasons (it was about military attitudes to civilians, dissidents &/or gay people): however, myself and the other members of the Pink Triangle Rebel Consortium usually think of ourselves as politicizing the fandom - or restoring the gay scenes (censored by the BBC) to canon: there are obvious reasons why the impact of a specific piece of fanfic is unlikely to travel beyond a self-selected group of fans (in my case a TINY group, B7 not being the world's biggest fandom, and those who read slash being a subset of that...)

I still think of my theory writing as being "derrida fanfic" though.

I don't think writing realfic porn would have more of me in it than writing slash. I haven't tried for ages. But then I begin to suspect that I am a fictionosexual anyway.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:32 / 07.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Armchair Subversive:
So you don't think that a platonic ideal of slash fiction might exist which uses X-Files/Buffy/Blake's 7 as a jumping-off point to explore assumptions about genre conventions, gender and expectations of heteronormative privilege might be possible? Regardless of whether it's actually been achieved yet...
Maybe. But even such an ideal would only resonate with an audience already familiar with the referent. Which seems, to me, unnecessarily limiting.

It's a question of a useful vehicle. The referent, like so many things, makes a good servant but a poor master.

Fanfic--and "legitimate" franchise writing as well!--is like a message written in code, with the referent as the key. If you've got something to say about the larger world--something worth saying, something worth hearing--why put it in a cypher and pitch it at a tiny audience of fellow windtalkers?

As a writer, I ask: If you've got something to say, why not just say it?
 
 
Rialto
15:40 / 07.08.01
Hmmm. I haven't read Wide Sargasso Sea - to what extent does it depend on any previous knowledge of Jane Eyre?

My point is, there are many 'serious' literary works (from Blake to Eliot to Acker) which contain references to previous literary works or traditions. Not all of these rely on the reader's knowledge of the latter, but many of them are enriched by it. If we ignore ideas of high and low culture, how different is that to the dependancy inbuilt in fanfic which you're referring to?
 
 
Jack Fear
15:58 / 07.08.01
You've ansered your own question: To the extent to which they are enriched by, rather than restricted by/reliant upon, knowledge of the referent.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:02 / 07.08.01
Question for a question: jillions of people went to see the film Shakespeare In Love, while only a handful of academics and internet weirdos are reading Shakespeare porn. Why d'you think that is?

And while we're at it--Tom, could we move this thread to Books, where it belongs?

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
deletia
22:02 / 07.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack Fear:
Fanfic--and "legitimate" franchise writing as well!--is like a message written in code, with the referent as the key. If you've got something to say about the larger world--something worth saying, something worth hearing--why put it in a cypher and pitch it at a tiny audience of fellow windtalkers?


And....the specific context drawn from a "larger world" escapes the status referent because?

Reed, you're the greatest mind of your generation. We all freely admit to that. But to assume that "people" hold some common set of experiences of the world because they happen to share an approximately contiguous space is....well, is an assumption characteristic, arguably, of a member of the most culturally, politically, financially and militarily powerful nation on that approximately contiguous Earth.

But to an awful lot of us, the minutiae of, say, the House of Representatives or the history of the Black and Tans are no more or less representative of the "larger world" than the minutiae of the Federation, or indeed the Federation (Inner and Outer Worlds).

They are all convenient fictions which are useful to a greater or lesser extent in different acts of writing. That is all.
 
 
moriarty
23:53 / 07.08.01
Lovely piece, Deva. I spent the time walking to, from and at work thinking over fan fiction, something I have never actually given a second glance to.

The only thing that I can think to add is that your definition of fan fiction is left somewhat hazy. Grant Morrison writing the Doom Patrol. Frank Miller on Batman. Shakespearean scholars writing about homosexual subtexts. I couldn't imagine these works as fanfic, not in the way they're presented. The last example because it is a non-fiction interpretation of an established piece. A better comparison would be made if you mentioned an examination of Blake's 7 subtext, which seems to me to be a little different from an outright piece of fiction.

The other examples are a little trickier, and it all depends on one's notion of Canon. The obvious way to look at it would to say Canon is by the original author and/or the current owner of the property. I think Canon can be a little more difficult than that. I feel that Canon is determined by viewpoint of the majority. A few examples.

A book of amateur fiction set within the Star Trek universe was released not long ago. This book, composed of what would be considered "fanfic", is now Canon simply because it is accepted by the entity that "owns" Star Trek in the public mind.

I have friends that swear that the Star Wars novels and comics are Canon and that Lucas was going to make the third trilogy based on these works. I figured this idea was garbage, and that Lucas was too much of an egomaniac to base his movies on anyone else's work but Kurosawa's. To me, the Star Wars Canon is the film, to them, it's anything Star Wars (except the Marvel comics and the Holiday Special, which I consider Canon). But the truth is, until Lucas says otherwise, I have to accept that these stories are Canon.

Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol, and any mainstream comic writer not working on an imaginary story or comic that is "retconned", is working within the Canon.

Now, these are all owned, legally, by the entity publishing them. But let's look at the case of Miracleman. There are three eras of Miracleman, and most everyone seems to feel that only one version is Canon. The majority seem to feel that Gaiman should be given the rights to Miracleman, not because he created it (Mick Anglo did), or because he owns it (Todd McFarlane does) but because his version, to them, is Canon. The viewpoint of the people has made the Moore-Gaiman Miracleman run Canon, no matter the legalities of it. Very few people care about the Anglo comics, and it will take McFarlane a long time to replace Gaiman's Miracleman from peoples minds, if ever.

Sorry to ramble, but this all seems to tie into various other discussions popping up, like the Public Domain superhero and Continuity, although maybe only I see that.

By the way, if something is Retconned, that is, considered by the Authority of the Canon as non-Canon (think Pre-Crisis DC) is that now considered Fanfic?
 
 
Mazarine
01:50 / 08.08.01
quote:I have friends that swear that the Star Wars novels and comics are Canon and that Lucas was going to make the third trilogy based on these works.

I have an acquaintance who insists that Lucas has said that the novels are officially Star Wars gospel, part of the continuity as it were. But I spend a lot of time wishing this acquaintance great harm, so I'm not inclined to give a damn what he insists.

Another topic this makes me think of is non-western attitudes towards fanfiction. Like fan created manga, I think the word is doujinshi. I'm not sure what the attitude of the original creators is towards it is.
 
 
moriarty
02:01 / 08.08.01
There's an interview in the latest Pulp, the Manga magazine, where Lea Hernandez talks about working in Japan on Manga. The men she worked with considered it something of an honour when they discovered someone had done a slash comic based on their characters. But they wouldn't allow Lea to look at it.
 
 
Cat Chant
05:13 / 08.08.01
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
I feel that Canon is determined by viewpoint of the majority. A few examples.

A book of amateur fiction set within the Star Trek universe was released not long ago. This book, composed of what would be considered "fanfic", is now Canon simply because it is accepted by the entity that "owns" Star Trek in the public mind.


(Thanks, Moriarty!)

Um... Yes, I think canon is the key here, and it *does* make a difference whether you take as your referent "the established traditions of literature" or "Star Trek" (as Jack is saying) - though I'm not sure it makes as big a difference as he says. But that's my Derridean bias coming through... I'll see if I can find some good quotes on that. (Later.)

There was a huge flame war which I think split Dr Who fandom permanently over whether the novels were canon, btw. In Blake's 7, the BBC-authorized radio plays are not accepted as canon by anyone as far as I know. I guess a catch-all term would be that canon is created through the interaction of the original text and fan consensus (or each fan's beliefs).

I really like the idea that something retconned can retrospectively become fanfic where once it was canon...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
05:13 / 08.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack Fear:
Question for a question: jillions of people went to see the film Shakespeare In Love, while only a handful of academics and internet weirdos are reading Shakespeare porn. Why d'you think that is?

'Cause the weirdos and the brains have better taste? Then again, that film just shat me to tears, so I could be biased...

I don't know. It just didn't feel like fanfic to me; it felt bad.
 
 
Jack Fear
10:58 / 08.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Deva:
...it *does* make a difference whether you take as your referent "the established traditions of literature" or "Star Trek" (as Jack is saying) - though I'm not sure it makes as big a difference as he says...
Not what I'm saying at all. Read my posts again: it ain't the referent, it's what you do with it.

Oh, and Haus? Stop being fucking obtuse. Disingenuousness ill suits you.

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:01 / 08.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Deva:

Rothkoid: I think some of Diana Wynne Jones's later Chrestomanci stories are Chrestomanci fanfic, but I'm sure I'm the only person who does think so. (And yes, I think long-running multi-authored things can fall into fanfic: eg Milligan's Shade is to some extent fanfic on Ditko's Shade...)



I totally agree. Her fondness for the character of Chrestomanci leads her to introduce him in stories which could quite plausibly exist in another fictionverse than the Chrestomanci world - I'm thinking in particular of The Magicians of Caprona and Witch Week - so she is effectively writing as a fan of her own character.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
11:13 / 08.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Deva:
tho' few fanfic stories which are as hard to read as Ulysses, I admit).


Sorry Deva, I cannot let that one lie. Try rootling around at www.ateamfanfic.com and see whether that ain't hard to read. Even for fans. Perhaps especially for fans.

I have to say I think the simplest distinction one can make between fanfic and "proper" or "canonical" fiction is that you might get paid for the latter. Money and professional recognition canonise the author. Fans (like many good, unpublished authors) will do it for love, and others will read it for love: not the love of the fanfiction itself necessarily, but the love of the original fiction as expressed in the show (Star Trek/A-Team/B7).
 
 
deletia
12:04 / 08.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack Fear:
Not what I'm saying at all. Read my posts again: it ain't the referent, it's what you do with it.


Only if you assume that fan fiction is inevitably parasitic upon the source text and nothing else. Your original position was, as I understand it, that whereas Wide Sargasso Sea addressed issues outside the original work, fanfic can be identified by only referring to the source text itself and the issues and relationships raised within that source text. Usually but not invariably. What happens in those exceptional cases when a piece of fanfiction transcends total self-referentiality we have yet to discover, especially as you asubsequently argue that any interaction of any kind between the characters is by definition referential to the relationship in the source text and (presumably) nothing else, up to and including fisting.

Also waiting for a response on the existence or otherwise of universally comprehensible referents, without which your next hurdle, that of a limited audience being clued in to the source text, is somewhat problematised.

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Jericho ]
 
 
sleazenation
12:06 / 08.08.01
Slight aside here

From recent work research I have discovered that Lucas considers every bit of star wars material produced after around 1992 to be cannon whilst things such as the Marvel comics star wars run are not. It seems that back after he finished ROTJ Lucas took a far more relaxed view of the franchise than he does today. You would not believe how much consultation has to go on a single piecce of starwars merchandise today…
 
 
Jack Fear
12:57 / 08.08.01
Had a nearly complete and blistering response to the Haus, which was just lost to the electronic winds--will reply when I'm no longer too depressed to type.

A brief summary, though:
Wrong, wrong, WRONG.
 
 
Rialto
13:03 / 08.08.01
Now that's the level of devate I like to see on Barbelith...

But seriously, can I just rewind a moment: Jack, your argument still seems to rely upon the idea that there are certain pre-existing fictions which contaminate a fiction which then incorporates them or takes them as a starting point. And it seems to me that your basis for judging which fictions are thus unusable still falls back on a high/low culture divide. Or are you arguing that there's a line that can be drawn at a certain point where the references from the source are not well-known enough for a fiction based on that source to be workable and therefore worthwhile?

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Armchair Subversive ]
 
 
deletia
13:13 / 08.08.01
Once again, the electronic winds do my bidding. You may be able to stretch phenomenal distances, Richards, but your software is now enslaved by my Heartware.

Forgive me. I'm channelling Avon. And Doctor Doom. And Chris Jericho.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:26 / 08.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Armchair Subversive:
...Jack, your argument still seems to rely upon the idea that there are certain pre-existing fictions which contaminate a fiction which then incorporates them or takes them as a starting point. And it seems to me that your basis for judging which fictions are thus unusable still falls back on a high/low culture divide. Or are you arguing that there's a line that can be drawn at a certain point where the references from the source are not well-known enough for a fiction based on that source to be workable and therefore worthwhile?
Still working on that reply to the Haus, but briefly: NO. THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. AT. ALL.

It's not a question of which referents, it is a question of the degree to which the referring fiction assumes knowledge of the referent as a starting point--that is, the degree to which the referring fiction is alienating and exclusionary.

The criterion I'm suggesting is: Does the fiction depend entirely upon knowledge of the referent for its impact? Or does it stand apart as a comprehensible fiction in its own right?

Another quick example: Alan Moore's WATCHMEN. As originally conceived, it was to have been a story about the set of characters that DC had recently acquired from Charlton comics--The Question, Captain Atom, et cetera. Had it gone through as planned, I would classify it (as I classify the vast majority of franchise comics writing) as fanfic.

But by disguising the characters, even thinly, Moore created a work that stands alone, that requires no knowledge of the referent, and can be enjoyed by trainspotter and newbie alike. Whilst old fanboys like me get a grin out of the knowledge that the characters are Charlton analogues, the other 99% of the population can still read and understand WATCHMEN.

To answer the question before it's asked: yes, I think that my previous example, Wide Sargasso Sea, can be read and understood without reading Jane Eyre. Knowledge of the referent might enhance the reading of WSS, but it is not a prerequisite.

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
Rialto
14:45 / 08.08.01
Right... That's what I thought you were saying at one point. But since you're not saying that disguising the characters is the only way to make the secondary fiction stand up on its own (because Mr Rochester is called Mr Rochester in both books above), then I still maintain that by your definition, there exists the possibility / potential for, say, a short story which uses a couple of characters from a leading speculative fiction TV show and yet can still be understood, appreciated and enjoyed without knowledge of said show (because it has something new to say of its own). Thus one which might be called fanfic and yet also meets your definition for "proper" or original fiction, and can stand on its own merits.

I doubt it's been written yet. But it could be. Would you agree?
 
 
deletia
14:54 / 08.08.01
Or, to put it another way, if I write a short story about the love affair of Idomeneus and Meriones, based on a brief conversation in Iliad 13 or thereabouts, is that "fan fiction" and as such inaccessible? What if I write it with the names changed to Nereus and Ampitryon? Or if I write it in the assumption that my audience will not know anything about these two minor characters from the Iliad, but will probably be vaguely familiar with the concept of the Trojan War? Or if I do not even assume that level of knowledge?

What I find interesting about Jack's position is that, whereas I have generally thought of fanfic as stories written by fans, he seems to believe it to be stories written exclusively *for* fans.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:02 / 08.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Armchair Subversive:
Right... I still maintain that by your definition, there exists the possibility / potential for, say, a short story which uses a couple of characters from a leading speculative fiction TV show and yet can still be understood, appreciated and enjoyed without knowledge of said show (because it has something new to say of its own). Thus one which might be called fanfic and yet also meets your definition for "proper" or original fiction, and can stand on its own merits... Would you agree?
Hypothetically? I suppose. But you'll have a hell of a time getting it out to a general audience: the only real difference between the "high culture canon" and "popular culture" is that high culture is no longer protected by copyright laws.

And if, like most writers, you wish to reach the widest possible audience, that's the one persuasive argument for using "high culture" referents over "pop culture" referents--and it's purely a practical objection, rather than an aesthetic one. Look at the shitstorm surrounding the publication of The Wind Done Gone: the lawyers for the Margaret Mitchell estate nearly killed it outright.

So pop culture referents, unless disguised in some way, can only be used (a) in the underground, samizdat world of fanfic, which limits your potential readership, or (b) in "official," trademark-servicing product, the corporate ownership of which imposes limits on your artistic freedom, or (c) if your publisher is willing to spend jillions of dollars on high-powered attorneys.

In practical terms, a fanfic such as the one you've proposed might be more trouble than it's worth.

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
deletia
15:09 / 08.08.01
So...your distinction is no longer an artistic one, but a legal one? And, conversely, if a piece of writing is not profitable, it is not worth the trouble of producing it?

If I didn't know you better, Doctor Richards, I'd think you were using your incredible stretching powers to move the goalposts...

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Jericho ]
 
 
Jack Fear
15:11 / 08.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Jericho:
What I find interesting about Jack's position is that, whereas I have generally thought of fanfic as stories written by fans, he seems to believe it to be stories written exclusively *for* fans.
Is that an unreasonable assumption? If so, why?

Are there hordes of people reading STAR TREK slash who are entirely unfamiliar with the show? If so, then to them it must simply read as gay porn, albeit with a science fiction slant. But, as is pointed out in this excellent article, the majority of fanfic readers and writers are straight women, who wouldn't be caught dead reading porn at all, let alone man-on-man porn.

Is the referent more important than the content here--that is, is it the referent that makes the content important? I think so: in this case, it's the "fan" element that defines the "fiction" element.
 
 
moriarty
15:13 / 08.08.01
If Moore had used the Charlton characters, instead of the thinly disguised Charlton characters he did use, I highly doubt you would have had to have previous knowledge of the Charlton characters to enjoy it. It would have been as comprehensible to the unititiated as to those who were familiar with the heroes. In a sense, Moore created his own fanfic by creating a past for the characters of Watchmen. I had numerous friends ask me where they could get their hands on Minutemen comics. Because they had no previous knowledge of Watchmen past (which didn't actually exist, but they didn't know that) does that mean they were reading fanfic up until the point that they were told no such past existed?

In short, if the Charlton Watchmen had been created, it would have been just as accessible to the people who didn't get the referent as to those who did. Therefore, by your definition, not being fanfic. The same could be said of numerous comics, including Moore's Miracleman run, since I know of very few people who have a previous knowledge of the character, yet couldn't get into the comic.

Moore has a funny way of producing fanfic, doesn't he?

(I swear, when I was writing this the past few posts weren't up yet. Now here I am smack dab in the middle of the shit storm. Are you guys hooked up telepathically to your computers? Reed? Victor?)

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
  

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