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Genderless/Gender-neutral pronouns, "he", "she", "them" and "they", and broader gender issues in language.

 
  

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Jack Fear
19:37 / 18.11.02
As one who lived through it, I can safely say that I remember no uo uproar as such: just a quiet chuckle of "Oh those crazy liberals..." and within five years the usage was ubiquitous.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:39 / 18.11.02
If enough people got up the courage to use "ze" or "hir" in their everyday conversations, explaining what the words meant and why they were using them, they would probably be more widely used in a decade or so. If the media took them up, perhaps earlier.

Yes, but you would first have to explain to people why it was such a good idea to use them. Which, as I said above, will be difficult if they feel the plural is an existing alternative. "Ms" has a role that wasn't properly covered by existing titles, or at least enough people thought so to make it okay. Similarly with "partner" to take a more modern example.

Maybe I'm misjudging quite how many people are comfortable with the plural, but I don't think I am.
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:52 / 18.11.02
And we don't use titles all that often anymore.
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:56 / 18.11.02
Oh - you meant your personal opinion of how things sound.

He's not being that subjective. What about alliteration?
 
 
some guy
20:12 / 18.11.02
Sorry, but when it comes to language sound is an important component.
You're kidding! Oh - you meant your personal opinion of how things sound.


Rhymes, homophones, alliteration and meter aside? No, I'm talking about the basic reality of trying to convince a factory worker in Detroit that he should say "ze" instead of the commonly accepted plural. And this is before we even get into the French jokes that will inevitably develop.

All of this is beside the point, of course, because a gender-neutral pronoun is already widely used in the West. And because language is descriptive rather than proscriptive, it appears that a few pedants ought to get busy with the "they" and "their" and "thems" instead of hoping for a rash of sudden "ze" and "hir" adoptions by the soccer moms of America.

It seems very odd (not to mention elitist) to engineer a solution for something that has already been solved by the masses.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:46 / 18.11.02
The funny thing about Lawrence, other than the fact that he is apparently 28, is that he tends to look at the world in highly adversarial terms. It's kind of cute. Not to mention his assumptiuon that "the West" is universally Anglophone. That's positively adorable.

But, if we could avoid merely shouting abuse over the parapet for a little while.

Todd - re: Shiboleth. My suggestion was that the assumption that the pronoun would be used with a political rather than a grammatical primary purpose seems to be something of a badge of recognition for opponents of the term. If one *belongs* to that tribe, one could very easily assume that use of the pronominal terms necessitates membership of a feminist/politically correct "tribe". Which of these is right, if either, is an interesting question, but one that I suspect will not get beyond the point of assumption.

I notice nobody has yet tackled the age of the third person plural as an asexual singular, or the possible utilities of the different terms in non-spoken language. Any takers?
 
 
some guy
21:16 / 18.11.02
Speaking of pedants, here comes one now...

Not to mention his assumptiuon that "the West" is universally Anglophone.

In a conversation about the English language among reasonably intelligent people, wouldn't you assume that we are naturally talking about exclusively English speakers? Duh.

But, if we could avoid merely shouting abuse over the parapet for a little while.

How interesting of you to say this, considering you appear the be the sole person choosing to abuse posters.

I notice nobody has yet tackled the age of the third person plural as an asexual singular

This is a good point, but makes me wonder how long "one" was used instead.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:25 / 18.11.02
All of this is beside the point, of course, because a gender-neutral pronoun is already widely used in the West.

Linguistic imperialism, little one. An unexamined sentence. A revealing little passage on what you actually think of "the West" as being. I'm afraid I really can't take responsibility for your use of language. And "pedant" is a weak insult in the Head Shop - you may be imperilling your "bright teenager" taxonomy.

The lifespan of "one" is a good question, but I suspect that the simple "he/him" is by far the universal pronoun with the longest pedigree. This has the singular advantage of being singular, and can of course be modified to "she/her" for actions befitting a lady. In many ways, it's a very elegant solution.

Still, while we are in the West, maybe we should look at how other languages handle this. French, as far as I know, keeps "lui" rather than "leur" for gender-neutral objects, but how about, say, German, or Italian? And does this have a bearing, given the Germanic roots of English and its frequently Latinate (and so, according to some, Romance) academic language.
 
 
some guy
21:51 / 18.11.02
Linguistic imperialism, little one. An unexamined sentence. A revealing little passage on what you actually think of "the West" as being.

Not really, no. It's not rocket science to assume that we are not talking about Germany here. If we must spend pointless time examining the many ways in which our posts do not reach the lofty linguistic heights of a PG Wodehouse, then I suppose I should point out that assumptiuon has just the one "u."

This has the singular advantage of being singular, and can of course be modified to "she/her" for actions befitting a lady. In many ways, it's a very elegant solution.

I suppose the obvious question is: In what ways is it not an elegant solution? Are the instances in which "ze" would come in mighty handy actually that large in number, and would they not be served by "one" or the commonly accepted "them/their/they?" Further, considering that we already have a solution to this problem, one that is "very elegant" in "many ways," are we not disappearing up our own backsides mulling whether or not to introduce "ze" and "hir" into the popular language?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:59 / 18.11.02
Don't think 'ze' would ever replace 'one', since this is already frequently replaced by 'you' (in the same way that 'they' is used for 'his'). One does something; ze does something: not the same thing at all...

If one were to masturbate excessively, one would find that one's eyeballs would fall out. (or should that be 'were one to'?)

If ze were to masturbate excessively, ze would find that hir eyeballs would fall out.
 
 
rakehell
22:16 / 18.11.02
I think Finnish has only gender neutral pronouns, hän = he/she. Apparantly a lot of Finns(?) have trouble learning Indo-European lanuages and seperating he/she, er/sie, etc.

Hungarian - as far I know - has no grammatical gender for words at all and therefore only one third-person pronoun.

I am quite partial to using "em" as the pronoun, mainly because it's the way I speak.

"Your friend is at the door."
"Tell em I'll be right there."
 
 
Ethan Hawke
22:18 / 18.11.02
Analogous to our "one," German has the hardly gender-neutral sounding "man," which takes something that resembles the masculine endings in the accusative, dative, and genitive cases. German might also be interesting to consider as the nominative (and accusative) case of its words for "she" and "they" are the same - "sie" (which, with an uppercase initial S, is also the formal "you")

Where this leaves us, fuck if I know.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
22:25 / 18.11.02
As noted above, the etymology of these particular words and the specific reasons they were brought into being would be quite helpful, if anyone has that info at the ready.

My first question is: How important is it to signify generally in terms of gender? In other words, why do the pronouns that we employ in reference to people use gender as the point of reference, and is this usage really necessary in situations wherein gender is a relative non-issue?
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
22:27 / 18.11.02
Thanks for simultaneously supplying a real-world example of what I was getting at, rakehell! So, yes. As w/Finnish, I mean.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:38 / 18.11.02
from here

Singular they refers to the use in the English language of the third person plural pronoun they to refer to a singular person of indeterminate gender. Many attack this usage as an aberration introduced for reasons of non-sexist language, however singular they has a centuries-long history of usage. Several famous authors have used it in their writing, including Jane Austen...

Apart from Jane Austen they give no further examples but I think that counts as at least some precedent.
 
 
some guy
23:35 / 18.11.02
One does something; ze does something: not the same thing at all...

But if we know X does something, aren't we likely to know X's gender, thus rendering the pronoun issue irrelevant?
 
 
w1rebaby
23:46 / 18.11.02
But if we know X does something, aren't we likely to know X's gender, thus rendering the pronoun issue irrelevant?

Not necessarily. Besides, if it's in a personal context, I don't think there's a problem in referring to the gender of the person in question. It's in situations where gender is either indeterminate or none of your business that this is significant.

The later I think is the reason that "partner" has become common usage. It started off as a "PC", social-worker sort of thing to say, but nowadays lots of people use it. I personally will say "girlfriend" to a friend, but "partner" to a telemarketer. The reason is that I like to preserve my privacy. It's none of their business who I want to go out with, or what my exact relationship is to them (girlfriend, fiance, wife?)

I don't think it's in doubt that a gender-neutral pronoun is useful here. Referring to someone of possibly either gender, it's not only equitable to use a neutral as opposed to neuter term - it's more correct. You make more sense. And the use of the male as a supposedly gender-neutral term is definitely flawed. It's based on the assumption that men are the only gender worth caring about unless it's childbirth or washing-up.

All that I would argue is, that there are perfectly good pre-existing terms to use, and there's no particular reason to use new ones. I've not yet heard an argument for using new terms as opposed to the singular they, apart from individual familiarity with its usage.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
00:53 / 19.11.02
If we must spend pointless time examining the many ways in which our posts do not reach the lofty linguistic heights of a PG Wodehouse, then I suppose I should point out that assumptiuon has just the one "u."

If the boy honestly cannot tell the difference between his description of the West as English-speaking and a typo, I'm afraid that there is little point in expecting to get much sense out of him. Of course, were he so keen to sink to that level, he might want to hyphenate avant-garde. I understand that those few of the French not yet speaking English favour this approach.

(Not to mention that the time is not itself pointless, but used pointlessly, and the transferred epithet is wince-makingly ugly. But if we move onto clunky English, I fear we shall be here all night)

Please try to remain vaguely on-topic, little one. It will allow the grown-ups to converse more freely.

Now - Fridge has asked if there is any good argument for a gender-neutral pronoun other than the singular "they". One immediate suggestion would be situations in which the use of "they" would create intolerable ambiguity. In everyday conversation, I'm not sure how often such ambiguity would apply, or would not be open to immediate clarification.

However, in certain textual discourses it may be very important to distinguish between singular and plural "they", or indeed (with a tip of the hat to Todd) to make clear that the pronoun has been selected for its absence of gender alignment rather than another reason such as convenience or universality. "It" might do duty here, although that would then perhaps open the door to yet more ambiguity down the road.

Also, of course, on the page the ambiguities generated by pronunciation would be removed, leading to greater rather than lesser clarity. So, is there a case for the existence (something of a fait accompli, perhaps) of a purely textual pronoun set from which gender-definition has been excluded?

Or are we assuming that spoken and written English are essentially identical, which could be the subject of a new topic in itself?
 
 
some guy
01:02 / 19.11.02
But if we know X does something, aren't we likely to know X's gender, thus rendering the pronoun issue irrelevant?

Not necessarily. Besides, if it's in a personal context, I don't think there's a problem in referring to the gender of the person in question. It's in situations where gender is either indeterminate or none of your business that this is significant.


What type of situations do you have in mind specifically?

As for Haus, I keep forgetting that he admitted to being a troll in his interview thread and is best ignored. Apologies for wasting everyone's bandwidth there.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
01:16 / 19.11.02
Ah, Godwin's law in action. If unable to think of reply, accuse of trolling. If this doesn't work, I fully expect to be accused of at the very best feminazism and quite possibly the full Nazi monty.

Please try to break some new ground, little one. The rudeness and lack of finesse are forgivable, but your obsessive spoiled-child threadrotting in order to pick fights with me is tiresome in the extreme, and if I was better rested I hope that I would not be rising to it.

As it is, I think it is probably best if we simply put each other on ignore, and if you want to discuss your issues you might want to do so by Private Message.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
01:27 / 19.11.02
So, to continue:

I suppose the obvious question is: In what ways is it not an elegant solution? Are the instances in which "ze" would come in mighty handy actually that large in number, and would they not be served by "one" or the commonly accepted "them/their/they?" Further, considering that we already have a solution to this problem, one that is "very elegant" in "many ways," are we not disappearing up our own backsides mulling whether or not to introduce "ze" and "hir" into the popular language?

(nb - the transitive verb "to mull" means, rather appropriately, to muddle or make a mess. I think our boy means "mulling over whether or not". Thank God that pointing out minor mistakes in transcription isn't pedantry anymore...)

So, what do we think? Are there any possible objections to using "he" or "his" or "him" when we mean an agent of uncertain or unasserted gender? Anyone?
 
 
grant
01:51 / 19.11.02
It's inaccurate, to say "he" when he could be a she. The context should make clear when a "they" is a "he or she" moreso than when a "he" is really a "he or she."

Verbally (spoken-wise, that his), it'd also be tricky to distinguish between "hir" and "her." It's possible, but not after two beers, or on a cold day, or if you're talking rapidly.

The interesting thing to me is that a "them" (or, as someone rather nicely pointed out, an "em") seems to make a comment more general or universal - as if, in the prior example, killing is what one does to clowns, regardless of individual gender.
 
 
The Monkey
02:32 / 19.11.02
A question for native English speakers: is there a point within the linguistic history of english where most nouns were gendered (as in Russian, and many Latin and Indo-European derived languages) in the sense that their end-letter affected their conjugation in various cases?

Also could some lay out in Webster's-style format the application of 'ze' and 'hir'? I'm still not sure how they work. Is the former a nominative case gender-indefinite 3rd-person pronoun and the latter an accusative/possesive form?
If so, aren't they constrained to the limited contexts in which the person referred to is non-specific as in a hypothetical or a fictionsuit-type 'person' construct?
 
 
ephemerat
06:17 / 19.11.02
More thoughts on 'ze' or 'it' as gender-neutral personal pronouns:

'It' wil work but definitely introduces elements of ambiguity:'Someone's spammed me. If it sends it again, I'll have to take actions.' (and it could be unintentionally laughable: 'If it does it again it gets the hose...').

'Ze' works better but conversationally it is even more inelegant and is redolent of dodgy impressions of Nazi interrogators and cod-vampires, mwahahaha.

Tricky one.
 
 
Tamayyurt
07:22 / 19.11.02
I hope I don't sound horribly dense for asking this but... Why would you need a neutral pronoun anyway? There are only two sexes. If you're referring to a male you say he/him if you're referring to a female you say she/her and if you're referring to a transgender person you use the gender they've adopted. Now, unless you're talking about God or you're trying to hide the sex of a particular person (which will be easily given away by trying to avoid it.) I don't see the reason for a new term. Explain.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
08:12 / 19.11.02
(Impulsivelad - I hope this post serves to clear up some at least of your confusion - forgive me for not addressing your question directly, but it's taken a while to type...)

Yes - "it" has the potential to create the slasher's curse of having far too many identical pronouns referring to different people or things in the same sentence, which is made worse, I suppose, by the fact that it doesn't decline - the accusative (direct object) of "it" is "it".

On antique gender in English - Old English is strictly gendered in much the same way that German still is, but without adhering to sense very much. So, wif (woman) was neuter, waerscipe (circumspection) masculine and...oh arse. Well, there were feminine nouns as well. Honest. I've only just got out of bed.

Middle English started out with the same system, but it's much harder to draw hard and fast rules because the West Saxons no longer produced all the extant writing, so you have lots of different dialects. But grammatical gender is gone by about the 14th century (anyone? This is so far outside my period, it's not even funny...) and people are using the pronoun that they feel fits - sunne, f'r example, gets "she" and "her", IIRC. The nominative and accusative have pretty much elided at this point also, which makes it easier to do. Default pronoun usage was, IIRC again, masculine.

Now, there was also a dialectical epicene pronoun "a", apparently (Baron, Grammar and Gender, if anyone can find a copy, and good luck), which can do duty for men, women, things and so on, which apparently mutated into "ou", observed still to be extant in the late 18th century. And at about the same time in the 18th century, poeple started to cavil against the absence of a gender-neutral pronoun in common English. New-fangled politically correct notions, indeed.

As to "their" - might I suggest that people consider the difference between the use of "their" with what Webster identifies as "notional plurals" (everyone wants to keep what is theirs) and what is clearly singular (if a college professor finds their tenure under threat, the only option available to them is to go to the mattresses), for either or both of which you may decide "they" is the best possible fit.

On uses for a gender-neutral pronoun...when the situation arises only infrequently, or can be circumvented by rewriting, the issue is (comparatively) minor. However, I do find the epicene pronoun to be a very useful thing on, say, Barbelith, when frequently I wish to interact with or describe people in very specific ways, without knowing their gender or gender-identity. Which makes me suspect that the epicene may not only be a new and exciting way to insult Jay Prosser, but a potentially useful development to streamline language in situations where gender is identifiable neither by sight, name or any other feature.
 
 
Magic Mutley
09:57 / 19.11.02
An interesting page here on the history & use of singular 'their' in English -

http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
10:34 / 19.11.02
My hopefully related question is this: has there ever been a point in history when intellectuals (for lack of a better word for those who are conscious of what they are doing with language in a social context) made an attempt to change language - and it caught on?

I can only think of l'Académie française, which was established in 1635 for the explicit purpose of preserving the french language, and today it continues to advocate against the introduction of non-french words and poor grammar in general. However, they haven't really succeeded in their initial quest at all. It is still an important academic institution, but they have been unable to mould the language in ways they deemed proper.

If there are no examples of language alteration through enforcement, is there a point in trying to coin a new term?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:11 / 19.11.02
Well, Samuel Johnson's dictionary strikes me as a reasonably good example...

But could you define "enforcement"? It occurs to me that new forms are coined all the time, and taken up to lesser or greater degrees due to factors social, geographical or whatever. "Enforcement" seems to suggest a centralised authority offering dictates on what to say, which, as the Academie Francaise demonstrates, is a difficult thing to do in secular liberal democracies, although one could look at, say, Stalin's Russia for an example (if not a very pleasant one) of centrally-imposed terminologies.

But was there "enforcement" of the word "Ms", or the widespread replacement of the word "woman" for "lady", or "bicycle" for "velocipede"?
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
11:30 / 19.11.02
Samuel Johnson didn't so much dictate the use of language as much as he recorded it, did he?

I understand your point about individual/institutional enforcement (I lump them together as minority entities seeking change) vs. the more subtle creation of a social code by agreement of the majority. (Pendatia advene... I could use the example of the disappearance of the word 'nigger' from civilised anglophone society as a gradual acceptance of the concept behind it.) What I meant by enforcement applies to the minority entities - that against the will or at least against the custom of the majority of people, they want people to adapt to something new. Of course this sort of thing happens all the time in society with the introduction of technology, implementation of laws, etc. I personally don't believe there is enough clout behind the gender-neutral campaign when a useable (albeit incorrect) alternative already exists.

But I'm running out of time here. If you can have 'ze', I want the world to turn vegetarian.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:49 / 19.11.02
...because a gender-neutral pronoun can only be part of a political platform? Again, an interesting comparison. Is an epicene pronoun necessarily a political act, requiring "pressure groups", "minority interest groups" or similar? I enjoy using the word "rubicund" where it is useful or correct to do so. This need not be the start of a polemic against the word "ruddy"...

As for Samuel Johnson being a simple recorder of words without politics; might I suggest comparing the number of times Locke and Hobbes are cited within its pages?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:34 / 19.11.02
Is an epicene pronoun necessarily a political act, requiring "pressure groups", "minority interest groups" or similar.

No, not necessarily, but in this case, today, the use of "hir" is an explicitly political act. I find it odd that you keep resisting the idea that "hir" is politically motivated. Admitting that it is wouldn't be a capitulation to the "anti PC" patrol. The rationale behind the usage of "hir" is not that English grammar doesn't provide for the situation because there are numerous grammatical ways of getting around the situation. The rationale is that those ways don't explicitly address the perceived inequity of English grammar.

Ten years from now, "hir" might be shorn of its political baggage. Or perhaps it might have even more political baggage. The "anti PC" forces could certainly try to turn it into an invective. Trying to circumscribe the way the word is interpreted today is futile.

W/R/T changing the language - can we really say that inserting "hir" into our vocabularies is the same as changing "velocipede" to "bicycle"? I'm going to gingerly suggest that adding or changing a pronoun is a much bigger change than adding or changing a noun, which is, as you say, done all the time. Pronouns are a more essential part of language than nouns - there are far fewer of them and the rules for using them are more carefully defined.
 
 
Linus Dunce
12:49 / 19.11.02
But was there "enforcement" of the word "Ms", or the widespread replacement of the word "woman" for "lady", or "bicycle" for "velocipede"?

With the possible exception of "Ms," not good examples because a woman is not the same thing as a lady, and a bicycle is not the same thing as a velocipede. Even in the good example, "Ms" is not the same thing as "Miss" or "Mrs."

I don't think anyone is suggesting language is immutable, with or without political impetus. At most they are saying they'd rather not modify their language unnecessarily.

If you Google for texts containing hir/ze, you will find that the vast majority are by an author, or refer to a person, that has opted out of conventional gender identification. So the change is not only unnecessary, but would be confusing and erroneous given that the words have already been appropriated to mean something other than a generic, gender-neutral pronoun.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:12 / 19.11.02
I think your (todd's - I fear I must hang fire on Ignatius until he is good enough to explain a) the difference between the phrase "a young lady" and "a young woman", assuming 40 or so years between them, and b) why the fact that "Ms" is not the same as "Miss" or "Mrs" has any actual impact on my contention - Head Shop, Ignatius...) point re: pronouns. It *is* a fairly big change. Likewise, I agree that the use of an epicene pronoun *can* be politically motivated, and no doubt often is, or is being used by somebody with an interest in gender politics (not quite the same thing). Where I disagree with you is the idea that it *has* to be.

As I mentioned above in one of the many sentences that nobody appears to have read, I find the epicene pronoun very useful in the specific situations where I do not know the gender alignment of a person, a situation I most often find on the Interwebent and most most often on Barbelith.

Since, exempli g., there is nothing generic whatsoever about, say, H.I.R, but at the same time I do not know H.I.R's gender, an epicene pronoun sems entirely apt and not particularly political at all at all. If H.I.R subsequently mentions that ze identifies as male, or female, I can adjust my subsequent application of the pronoun accordingly.

Conversely, if somebody chooses *not* to gender-identify, or not to gender-identify along the standard polarities, an epicene pronoun also seems perfectly logical. Which means that Ignatius' objection - that the specific epicene pronoun "ze" is often applied to people who have chosen not to identify as either "he" or "she" - does not strike me as an objection at all. Is it far too confusing to use the pronoun "she" because it includes women and boats? In fact, Ignatius appears to have identified a very pressing need for an epicene pronoun, whether or not you then choose to apply it further to a person whose gender alignment you do not know.

Now, the question of using "ze" instead of "he" or "she", that is, when you already know the gender of the specific person you are talking about, is a very different question. That *would* require retooling of the language, and would perhaps be rather confusing...
 
 
some guy
13:23 / 19.11.02
If H.I.R subsequently mentions that ze identifies as male, or female, I can adjust my subsequent application of the pronoun accordingly.

Is the objection to using "she or he" instead of "ze" simply that it takes longer to type?
 
  

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