BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Genderless/Gender-neutral pronouns, "he", "she", "them" and "they", and broader gender issues in language.

 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:55 / 21.11.02
Um....that was a reference to our culture. The dominant culture. The other cultures I have mentioned are demonstrations that a binary division of human gender is not the only way to work it.

On the tree question - I don't think one can "identify sexually" as a tree. Somebody may identify with a tree (i.e. believe themselves to be a tree trapped in a human body) or may be sexually excited by trees. But "tree" is not a gender - that is, it does not stand in relation to grammatical or cultural gender constructions. It's a noun. "Man" is a noun, but it is a noun that stands in relation to the gendered adjective "masculine", likewise "woman" and "feminine".

If somebody identified as a tree to such an extent that they wished to be referred to as if they were a tree, then presumably they would want to have the (already exisiting) gender of a tree used in their pronominal referent, then presumably it woudl be correct to use "it", since we describe trees as "it" and "they". Likewise, we call Lizard Man "he" because he believes himself to be a *boy* lizard. If he believed himself to be a girl lizard, that would be another matter.

If somebody identifies as neither masculine, feminine or neuter, then what they identify as would require a new gender term, or a fudge of the existing gender terms. If somebody identifies as a tree (and I assume by "sexually" you mean "in gender terms") then they adopt the gender of the tree they identify with. It is not an absurd example. It isn't an example at all.
 
 
some guy
15:37 / 22.11.02
But "tree" is not a gender - that is, it does not stand in relation to grammatical or cultural gender constructions.

This is where it gets messy - and where we're both right. Cultural gender constructions are just that - constructions. What is there today may not have been there yesterday. I may well identify as a tree and declare all gendered adjectives irrelevant to my status, demanding a new one. I may well not want an epicene pronoun, but rather a pronoun on the same "positive" level of "he" and "she," one that conveys information about my treeness (and further I could argue that your insistence than I select a pronoun based on your culturally dominant gender selections only goes to show how wobbly this whole discussion is on all sides).

You think it's absurd to identify as a tree and claim it represents a gender distinct from the mainstream categories; other people think it's absurd for people to claim genders aside from the mainstream pair. It's a slipperly slope that doesn't leave a lot of room for half-way positions, as the tree example demonstrates. Your inability to understand my need for unique gender representation as a tree only shows how mainstream you are and out of touch with the needs of my particular minority culture.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:46 / 24.11.02
One: If you're not sure about the pronoun someone would prefer you to use, ASK. You'd be amazed at the polite reception you'll get. The request to use non-specific pronouns need have no relation to the in/determinacy of hir gender. If a girl who told me she was a girl asked me to use 'ze', I would. No problem.

Two: ze/hir was coined by a trans person. The first time I ever heard it was was in the novel Nearly Roadkill, by Kate Bornstein, and I have a suspicion Kate may have coined the usage. But maybe not.

Three: Why is this subject such a source of anxiety for so many people? How can everyone discuss it like it's some kind of abstract, 'political' question, when for many, many people it's about finding some way to live in the world that isn't totally impossible? For me, pronoun usage is NOT about being all po-mo and poitical. It's about the equations people make when they look at me and my deep-seated conviction that those equations are wrong. Which has some pretty deep effects. The way that some posters are referring to trans people as if transfolk are external to it, somehow absent by dint of their 'Other' status, is incredibly problematic.

My experience is that I only get called 'ze/hir' textually, and by a few people. Most people in meatspace still refer to me as 'she', which feels wrong and crazy, but I haven't the energy yet to ask them to stop. 'He' is ideal; 'ze' is polite and fine. About three or four people have gotten it together to ask -- I really wish a whole lot more people did.

"Whether it is advisable or desirable" (quoting from the topic abstract) thus has no relevance to me. If those pronouns are already being used, does it matter whether some idiots think we shouldn't be using the words? Do we care?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:36 / 24.11.02
Well, yeah, what he said. What is frequently identified as "political correctness" on Barbelith seems often to be a question, in fact, of politeness - vide my suggestion on the "gederfuck You" thread that the best way to determine whether somebody should be referred to as "he" or "she" or whatever is to ask.

I'm glad that Lawrence and I get to agree on the obsolescence of "he" and "she", though - although I think they could still be useful for drag and performance.
 
 
fish confusion errata
22:29 / 27.02.07
just in case this hasn't been referred to yet
 
 
Crestmere
07:36 / 28.02.07
I try to use 'zie' sometimes as I find gendered pronouns questionable and 'it' dehumanizing. But, honestly, its kind of awkward to use regularly, especially in communicating with other people.

I think that a lot of this comes from the fact that English
doesn't really have very much grammatical gender.

Only a few words even have different gender forms and a lot of the feminine ones are a bit obsolete (poetess, aviatrix, wizardress, etc.). A lot of the feminine forms of things have been phased out and the male version becomes a unisex term. I'm even seeing 'actor' becoming a unisex term for more then the profession but this is slower to catch on.

Blond/blonde is the only adjective I can think of off the top of my head with a gender difference and, honestly, its bordering on having two interchangable spellings. I've yet to see anyone corrected for using either spelling.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
23:16 / 28.02.07
I'm somewhat undecided on this. On one hand, I do think that the use of the epicene pronoun is worthwhile in terms of sheer utility. On Barbelith specifically, I find it genuinely helpful to have an option other than trying to find out individually how other posters identify. And I think that the same is true of the Internet as a whole. It's both valid and worthwhile to challenge the dominant assumption that a poster identifies as male unless expressly stated otherwise. And I recognise that there are verbal face to face communications where the same principle applies.

On the other hand, I'm uncomfortable with arguments like:

Can I just ask Loz (god that feels strange) to explain why the fact that teaching 'factory workers in Detroit' to use ze would be difficult is a valid enough reason not to bother? Although it's not in the same 'life and death' class it does have an odour of 'let's not bother trying to abolish slavery because it'll be difficult persuading those bigoted landowners to do it' about it.

While I'd agree that it's not a valid reason in and of itself, I still think that's a very different situation. And not just in terms of not being a matter of 'life and death'. There are very different power relationships at play in the two situations. At the moment it does seem to be the case that the use of gender-neutral pronouns are only used by a minority. It also would appear that, while this is not exclusively the case, the majority of users have been to university and are from middle class backgrounds. So I think there is an uneasy air of "educating the lower classes" here, even though that's not the intention.

In the context of Barbelith I wouldn't see "ze" as exclusionary. It's explained on the Wiki and is common usage. If, however you have a small group of people using it at, say, a meeting to discuss the threatened closure of a local swimming pool it becomes more problematic. It has the instant effect of setting that group apart from the rest of the meeting by their use of language.

This is touched on in the first page of this thread, though I am taking it in a very different context:

who used the term "phat" 25 years ago? Only a select group of people.

That worries me. I am extremely wary of getting involved in any activity, ideological or otherwise, that means I'm putting myself up as part of a "select group of people". It has a connotation of linguistic vanguardism and vanguardism as a whole is an elitist ideological doctrine.
 
 
fish confusion errata
03:02 / 01.03.07
Ethical questions aside, trying to force people to change their language usage rarely works. But I'm baffled by all this talk of creating an English epicene pronoun. We don't need to. We already have one - "they their them". It is in widespread use and has been used for hundreds of years.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:48 / 01.03.07
Tell you what, goofy - why not have a crack at reading the thread? It will cover off a lot of issues, including, I think, the distinction between a pronoun used to signify a hypothetical person of indeterminate gender and one used to signify an actual person whose gender is not ascribed to masculine or feminine pronoun.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:17 / 01.03.07
Actually, on reflection, you might want to skip it until you've had breakfast. An interesting passage, for reference.

***

Fridge and Jack have opened up a very interesting question, that of legitimacy. Jack believes that the usage of "they" as a singular, despite precedence, is fundamentally not legitimate, as it conflicts with the standard usage of the word, and thus creates grammatical confusion. Fridge seems to be arguing that popular usage creates legitimacy (although I think the dialect thing is a bit of a red herring....ooooh - unless! Remind me of that in a second, brain).

Certainly, popular usage creates *comprehensibility*, and the major thing that singular "they" has going for it is that most people recognise it. This is certainly where I find my locus of difficulty. I don't much like "they" on a purely aesthetic level - over any length of paragraph, it becomes gratingly artificial, and, as Jack seems to suggest, if you are using "they" as a singular, you really have to start saying "they is/was/does" to maintain clinguistic consistency - rather as "fish" can be singular or plural, but demands grammatical agreement. What Fridge and others are advancing is in fact not "singular they" but "plural they with singular meaning", just as at the moment, to quote myself quoting Thomson and Martinet (hee!):

They is used as subject only. They can mean "people":

they say = people say, it is said

They say it is going to be a cold winter.

They can also mean "the authority concerned", i.e. the government/local council/one's employers/the police etc.

they want to make this a one-way street


Now, Merriam-Webster, as of about 1973, I think, admitted the possibility of the notional plural, which would make "they" with a plural usage permissible (at least if you are American, and keen on Merriam and Webster) after "everyone", "everybody", and a finitude of other, similar terms - thus "everybody is free to do what they want" good, "the passenger is free to do what they want" not, but instead "the passenger is free to do what they wants", which shows up the danger of appropriating an existing term.

So, question 1 is whether "they" can be adopted with plural grammar but singular menaing, question 2 probably being whether "they" with sinuglar usage is too ugly and confusing to live (my vote? A big yes). "They" with plural grammar but singular usage may, if you are not too fussy about such things, work as a generic singular, but in certain situations may be confusing or inappropriate; in particular in the case of long passages dealing with multiple uses of "they", and specific individuals with ambiguous or non-standard gender alignment. Whether people with ambiguous or non-standard gender alignment need their own pronoun (Uncle Friedrich's link above suggests that ze/hir is no good as a gender-neutral generic because it has come to describe people of a or n-s gender, which I am not sure is in itself a problem, as, as has been pointed out, confusing the use of the generic with the use of an epicene pronoun describing a person of a or n-s gender is unlikely to crop up too often and be fairly clear when it does).

Personally, I tend to think that rules of grammar are there to safeguard comprehensibility rather than to function as solids. Thus, as I would not use casual abbreviation through apostrophe in formal text, I would probably also steer away from plural they with singular meaning, because it seems inappropriate, as would, conveniently enough, y'all, so didn't I and I could care less. This may be because of my own ingrained assumption that formal text should not be dialectic, or rather should function in a particular dialect, that of formal English. I might use it in informal text, or in speech, where I will also at times use bits of the dialect of my childhood in the East Midlands. So, it functions, as Fridge suggests, as dialect, but in that case should presumably be bound by the same rules as dialect.

On the other hand, maybe the epicene pronoun is actually designed as a piece of dialect, or more correctly as a piece of "professional language". That is, in the same way that some trading guilds used to have a special dialect designed to make overheard conversations more difficult to eavesdrop, and a doctor, lawyer, engineer or sub-editor (say) will have access to and need of a number of specialised terms. Possibly the epicene pronoun is a specialised term for people working in areas where gender needs either to be elided or suspended a lot; gender theory, trans theory, other related disciplines. However, once the tool is in the language, it does seem liek quite a handy tool to have, certainly for people of a or n-s gender, and arguably as a convenient generic singular.

***
 
 
fish confusion errata
14:34 / 01.03.07
Yes, I missed that distinction. Sorry.

"they" with a singular antecedent is grammatical and has been used for hundreds of years. Yes, some people don't like it, but that doesn't stop everyone else using it. As these examples show, it is used with antecedents of both determinate and indeterminate gender:

There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend (A Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3)

Any girl who is interested must simply be born female and between the ages of 18 and 45. They must have an IQ above 130 and they must be honest.

UK scientists have identified the part of the brain that determines whether a person perceives themselves as fat. (BBC News, Tuesday, 29 November 2005, 11:52 GMT)

The Health Protection Agency can also confirm it was informed this morning that tests have established that a further person who was in direct and very close contact with Mr Litvinenko has a significant quantity of the radioactive isotope Polonium-210 (Po-210) in their body. - Health Protection Agency statement

One of the group had their hand up and was determined to have his say. - Jasper Fforde, The Eyre Affair

We encourage everyone to pack gel-filled bras in their checked baggage. - Transportation Security Administration's list of prohibited carry-on items


A pronoun for referring to a person whose gender is not ascribed to the masculine or feminine pronoun - that is a different question. Maybe "they" will eventually be used in this case as well. My point is that creating a new pronoun and encouraging people to use it is unlikely to work - not because it's a bad idea, but just because attempts to change language use in that way rarely work. I'm not saying that we shouldn't use "ze/hir" if we want to. But I'm not hopeful that it will catch on.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:44 / 01.03.07
Well, it's already caught on on Barbelith, to a fair degree - it may not become common usage among the Detroit factory workers whom LLBIMG got fixated on earlier, but that need not matter - we're talking about fairly specialised applications. It's certainly possible that "they" will be used for people who do not identify as one of the standard gender binaries, but I think it's important to note that this is an arbitrary decision - there is not prior art to make that usage grammatically logical, as "they" has been used as either/or but not neither/nor. There have already been a number of systems seeking to explore alternatives to this arbitrary ascription, and in fact they can be seen as ways of organising resistance _to_ the ascription of a "utility pronoun" - something which is easy to creep the use of "they" onto, but for which "they" is unsatisfactory.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that others will not use "they" on occasions when called upon, or indeed that people won't plump for the gender-specific pronoun that they feel best describes the individual. On the other hand, we had a discussion over "Ms" at the start of this thread, as a term that evolved to meet a social need and then moved into common parlance. Currently, the need for a splats-and-spivaks pronoun is less pressing than the need then to separate women's nomenclature from identification of their marital status. However, this is not in itself immutable.

Incidentally, I note that your examples are doing different things at times, and two are simply grammatically incorrect. I assume the second is unintentional, but is the first? More detail when I have time on that - sorry, must dash.
 
 
fish confusion errata
15:13 / 01.03.07
Incidentally, I note that your examples are doing different things

The first two are referring to antecedents of determinate gender. Is that what you mean?

and two are simply grammatically incorrect. I assume the second is unintentional, but is the first?

These example might not be standard, but they are all grammatical in my opinion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:45 / 01.03.07
Your opinion is of course deserving of respect, each man and woman being a star and all that, but I'm afraid that, if by grammatical you mean grammatically correct, you are in this case wrong. In the BBC example, "a person" is singular, "themselves" is plural - "a person" and "themself" possible, but the usage there is simply incorrect. In the Fforde example, the subject moves from being of indeterminate gender to having his say. However, this is, I think, sloppy writing rather than an attempt to reinscribe the rules of language.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:55 / 01.03.07
Huzzah! I now have a legitimate reason, aside from a prejudice against his risibly posh name, to avoid reading Jasper Fforde!
 
 
fish confusion errata
16:01 / 01.03.07
By "grammatical" I mean "following the rules that English speakers use to produce and comprehend utterances." "themselves" in the BBC example is morphologically plural, but so is "they" in an example like "We told everyone they were free to leave."

I trust Geoffrey Pullum's judgment when he says

Because when a construction is clearly present several times in Shakespeare's rightly admired plays and poems, and occurs in the carefully prepared published work of just about all major writers down the centuries, and is systematically present in the unreflecting conversational usage of just about everyone including Sean Lennon, then the claim that it is ungrammatical begins to look utterly unsustainable to us here at Language Log Plaza. This use of they isn't ungrammatical, it isn't a mistake, it's a feature of ordinary English syntax that for some reason attracts the ire of particularly puristic pusillanimous pontificators, and we don't buy what they're selling.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:22 / 01.03.07
Actually, the idea that "everyone" is singular in that usage is the problem there, I think, but that's a different matter. "Everyone" has plural sense in that sentence. "A person" is a singular noun with an indefinite article. Quite different.

Incidentally, "pusillanimous" is often thought to mean "mean-spirited", as an antonym to "magnanimous". It's a common mistake, but in fact "pusillanimous" means timid - "pullus" being not small but like a small animal - and thus has no place in that paragraph. It pains me to correct Mr. Pullum, but I fear that sometimes one's alliterative reach exceeds one's grasp. So, I fear I must now find fault with you and Mr. Pullum both.

Now, this is a useful process, because it reminds us that language is not only subject to dispute, but also subject to error, and that a space exists between categorical correctness, that which is subject to dispute and simple error, each band widening. Somewhere in "subject to dispute" are your citations above, two of which are according to stronger arguments than have been mustered against them ungrammatical. This does not directly inform the broader discussion of the epicene pronoun, but it is a useful thing to take into that discussion.

(Incidentally, Jack, there is discussion of Jasper Fforde here and, obliquely and somewhat incomprehensibly, here.
 
 
fish confusion errata
17:07 / 01.03.07
My dictionary says "pusillanimous" means "lacking courage and resolution : marked by contemptible timidity". That does not seem that out of place in the extract I quoted. You could be right, tho.

So would you consider this ungrammatical?

"I told that person that they were free to leave."

For me, both that sentence and these are grammatical:

"UK scientists have identified the part of the brain that determines whether a person perceives themselves as fat."

When you say this is ungrammatical, are you looking at it from the perspective of the prescriptive rule that says pronouns must agree with their antecedents in number and gender? Or are you basing your judgment on your native speaker intuition (assuming you are a native speaker)?

For me and many other native speakers, "they their them themselves" does not have to agree with its antecedent in number. English is not the only language like this. Other Indo-European languages have pronouns that do not agree with their antecedents in number or gender.

French
Elle se souvient.
"she remembers"

Ils se souviennent.
"they remember"

Swedish
Lotta slog sig i huvudet.
"Lotta hit herself in the head."

Barnen slog sig i huvudet.
"The children hit themselves in the head."

In Swedish and other languages, the possessive pronoun does not agree with its antecedent, it agrees with the noun it is possessing.

Max älsker sin mamma.
"Max loves his mother."

Martin läser sina böcker.
"Martin is reading his books."

French:
Max aime sa mère.
"Max loves his mother."

Martin lit ses livres.
"Martin is reading his books."

Pronouns don't always agree with their antecedents. We should not be surprised to find this feature in English.

Yes the prescriptive traditional rule says that pronouns must always agree with their antecedents in number and gender. But the prescriptive rule is not a guide to actual usage.
 
 
Quantum
17:36 / 01.03.07
Yes the prescriptive traditional rule says that pronouns must always agree with their antecedents in number and gender

I must admit to being slightly lost here. I've always taken 'they' to designate both multiple objects and gender-neutral or unknown singular people (to avoid using 'it' of course).

e.g.
'When is the bartender coming?'
'They'll be here in a minute'

What prescriptive traditional rule are you meaning?
 
 
fish confusion errata
17:46 / 01.03.07
I'm thinking of a rule like this one, from A Canadian Writer's Reference by Diana Hacker page 42:


Indefinite pronouns refer to nonspecific persons or things. Even though the following indefinite pronouns may seem to have plural meanings, treat them as singular in formal English: anybody, anyone, each, either, everybody, everyone, everything, neither, none, no one, someone, something.

In this class everyone performs at his or her [not their] fitness level.


Or this bit from the American Heritage Dictionary

However, despite the convenience of third-person plural forms as substitutes for generic he and for structurally awkward coordinate forms like his/her, many people avoid using they to refer to a singular antecedent out of respect for the traditional grammatical rule concerning pronoun agreement. Most of the Usage Panelists reject the use of they with singular antecedents. Eighty-two percent find the sentence The typical student in the program takes about six years to complete their course work unacceptable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:09 / 01.03.07
Back to your question:

So would you consider this ungrammatical?

"I told that person that they were free to leave."


Well, as a native speaker I would consider it artificial. If we can describe a person as that person, then we usually know that person's gender. That is what that does, there - it is being used to indicate a person, place, thing, or degree as indicated, mentioned before, present, or as well-known or characteristic. Therefore, I told that person that he was - or that she was, or indeed that ze/sie/zie was, if you want - free to leave. I told those people that they were free to leave.

So, let's try to get the usage a bit closer, shall we? How about:

I would tell that person that they were free to leave (were a person of as-yet-unascertained gender to inquire as to their liberty).

Well, that seems all right, doesn't it? We are using "they" as a singular, non-gender-specific pronoun which takes the form "were" of the verb "to be", yes?

So, let's assume that you used that sentence as an example rather than your actual example. When you say:

For me, both that sentence and these are grammatical:

"UK scientists have identified the part of the brain that determines whether a person perceives themselves as fat."


(You mean "For me, both that sentence and this (sentence) is grammatical", I think, unless I or you have missed another entity in the same set.)

you have failed to take into account the next difference between your example and the BBC example, which is that one employs the concept of performing an action upon oneself. You get closer to this with your souvenir example, but "se" is both singular and plural in this context - two separate words that happen to look the same, as in Latin. She reminds herself. They remind themselves.

This is quite different from "she reminds herselves", which would be the equivalent of "a person perceives themselves".

So, let's try to simplify this. As a mere native speaker, I suggest that rather than:

I told that person that they were free to leave.

or my humble suggestion:

I would tell that person that they were free to leave.

How about:

I told a person that they were nice.

This more closely mirrors your BBC example. However, if we are to follow your logic, actually we should say:

I told a person that they were some nice people.

This seems to me problematic.

I think where the confusion perhaps lies is that "themselves" can be used with a group noun - the team themselves voted (although I would prefer the team itself, personally), as an extensive of its work as the reflexive form of the third person plural "they" - that is, being extended to cover the constituents of a group. See also, to go back to the vexed singular/plural status of "everyone", the non-standard use of "themselves" and "themself" with indefinite antecedents such as "one" or "everyone" - everybody looks after themselves in the end, anyone can teach themself to play the alto sax.

However, "that person" is not an indefinite antecedent, nor is "a person" in the BBC example you gave. So, we come back to the question of which is grammatical:

UK scientists have identified the part of the brain that determines whether a person perceives themselves as fat.

or

UK scientists have identified the part of the brain that determines whether a person perceives themself as fat.

Since there is no plural in that sentence for "themselves" to agree with, unlike your recent examples, they are not pertinent. Since a (single but indefinite) person is perceiving his or her (or hir) self, there is only one self to perceive, unless that person has a second self, in which case they would perceive their selves as fat. Nonetheless, I would say that "a person" is not an indefinite singular with plural meaning - everyone thinks of themselves as fat once in a while (even that feels like, if you'll forgive me, a stretch). So, I would avoid the whole ghastly mess and point out that this part of the brain actually controls whether people in general perceive themselves to be fat, because "themself" is ghastly and there is always a better way to express oneself with the exercise of a little wit.

None of this, however, has anything to do with the epicene pronoun, really, does it? Also, it appears that you are American, and as such perhaps possessed of some traits of dialect not known to this user of English.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:11 / 01.03.07
Oh, and what part of contemptible timidity is normally associated with ire? Poor usage, I'm afraid.
 
 
fish confusion errata
18:50 / 01.03.07
Actually I'm Canadian, but I'm so confused now I don't know who I am or what my name is.


You get closer to this with your souvenir example, but "se" is both singular and plural in this context - two separate words that happen to look the same, as in Latin. She reminds herself. They remind themselves.


No, "se" is one word, not two words that happen to look the same. It can have different meanings when translated into English depending on its context, but it is clearly one invariable word. One form: se. One function: third person.


This more closely mirrors your BBC example. However, if we are to follow your logic, actually we should say:

I told a person that they were some nice people.


I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion.

I think what I'm trying to say is that in this sentence...

"UK scientists have identified the part of the brain that determines whether a person perceives themselves as fat."

..."a person" is morphologically singular and semantically singular (as you point out). But "themselves" is semantically singular as well in this context. It's morphologically plural but it doesn't seem to be semantically plural. It's not so weird for pronouns to not agree with their antecedents in number, as my French and Swedish examples show.

This has nothing to do with wit or being ghastly, it has to do with the language people actually use. Now maybe some speakers prefer "themself", and there's certainly room for disagreement in terms of personal preference, but it seems to me that there's nothing ungrammatical about the BBC example or any of the examples I gave.

This is relevant to the epicene pronoun discussion, because I'm trying to show why I think that "they, their, themselves" is an acceptable pronoun to use with morphologically singular antecedents where the gender is undetermined (and it's even used where the gender is determined in some of my examples).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:15 / 01.03.07
OK. Essentially, I disagree that:

a) "se" as the reflexive third person singular and "se" as the reflexive third person plural are identical, because they do different things. This is like saying that "were" the second person singular past tense of "to be" is the same as "were" the first person plural past tense of "to be" is the same as the first person singular present subjunctive of "to be".

b) "Everyone" functions identically with "a person". Because they simply don't.

c) The fact that some languages have possessives that agree with the object rather than the subject means that things can go switch meaning between singular and plural in sentences with no plural nouns and no plural sense.

So, if the Beeb had said that it was the part of the brain that made everyone perceive themselves to be fat, fine. If it was the part that made people perceive themselves to be fat, fine. But reason and aesthetics abhor a person perceiving themselves to be fat. "Themselves" simply does not work as a semantic singular if there is no indication of plurality elsewhere in the sense unit.

As such, I would state quite plainly that, certainly for specific people who do not gender identify "themselves" is not a viable option. Which is handy, because that is not the language people actually use, if you believe that to be key. Soo, happy ending, there. They/their/them/themselves as a pronoun usage for an indeterminate person who might when they appear belong to either gender, fine. For an indeterminate person of specified gender, if you must, although don't complain when I start calling people's heads clotpolls. But for a specific individual, I don't see it as a profitable road, whereas "themself" might (might) actually work here, although unlovely elsewhere.
 
 
fish confusion errata
20:17 / 01.03.07
a) My understanding is that French "se" is usually analyzed as one form: third person. The fact that it can "do different things" is not proof that it is two words with the same form. You could argue that "were" is one form - the plural form, which is used for all persons in the plural (I think the subjunctive "were" is analyzed as a separate form because its function is quite distinct).

otoh you could argue that "se" can have two forms: singular and plural, each marked with a zero morpheme. So whether "se" is one form or two would depend on your theoretical framework. If you think it's two forms, then you could analyze plural "they" and singular "they" as two different forms, and I'm not sure how singular "themselves" would fit into that.

b) OK I think I see what you're saying. "everyone... themselves" is ok, but "a person... themselves" is not. Fair enough; I guess this is a dialect/idiolect difference, so there's not much point in trying to convince each other.

However, you state that the latter "is not the language people actually use" - but it is; it's in that BBC headline. Again, I guess it's a dialect/idiolect difference.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:22 / 01.03.07
You misunderstand: I said that "themselves" was not an object form used to describe people who do not identify as one or the other of our standard genders. Apologies for what must have been a failure in clarity on my part.
 
 
fish confusion errata
20:52 / 01.03.07
OK. Well I was not arguing that "themselves" should be a form used to describe people who do not identify as one or the other of our standard genders.

So I guess we've been talking past each other. Altho you do say

"Themselves" simply does not work as a semantic singular if there is no indication of plurality elsewhere in the sense unit.


which suggests that you have a fundamental problem with this usage, whether or not it is used to describe people who do not identify as one or the other of our standard genders. Fair enough if that's the case.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:05 / 01.03.07
Ah, right - that refers back to your "a person... themselves" sentence, as discussed at some length above. Thus, I would not want to see "themselves" if:

a) It is being used with reference to (singular) person with non-standard gender identity fishcakes.

b) It is used in a sentence structure that makes its usage grotesque and/or absurd, such as:

UK scientists have identified the part of the brain that determines whether a person perceives themselves as fat.

Beyond that, "themselves" and I are pretty much golden, I think. I realise, though, that the latter case might be a question of, as you say, idiolect - just as the maintenance of a structure where on used gendered then epicene pronoun in a single sentence might be - "If a man took their trousers off", sort of thing, although I wouldn't expect it in standard or indeed non-standard British English. So, I think I've probably changed in the last few years, and would see morph-pl-sem-sing "they" as a usable epicene for "undefined person who may be of either gender when and if they make themselves manifest".
 
 
alas
16:14 / 08.03.07
The "Spivak" pronouns were mentioned on I think page 3, i.e., e/ey/eir/em based on the plural third person but with the "th" dropped, as a competing system to the ze/hir model. So far as I know, that query was not followed up on. Here's an incomplete wikipedia page on them.

I'm going to apologize in advance if I'm repeating things already really hashed through: I confess I have not re-read this entire thread (I do vaguely remember reading it in '02) have re-skimmed most of this thread.

I would simply add (I hope, or maybe repeat?) that pronouns are amongst the most "conservative" parts of the language because we have to use them all the time, unlike, today, titles like "Mr." and "Ms." Even more than common words like "dog." That's why they retain so strongly their cases, in a language like English that has otherwise become increasingly based on word order rather than cases. (E.g., "dog" does not change its form when it's a subject or an object as "they" "who" "he" and "we" etc. do, becoming "them" "whom" "him" and "us.")

So I find myself rather in agreement with, I believe, Ethan Hawke on page one, and pretty much with goofy here on this page (5). Practically, I think this change to our pronouns, assuming that there's some agreement on the best system to be adopted, will pretty clearly be perceived as a "top down" change imposed by educated and highly literate, "liberal" people, based on the dialectical needs of their communities and lives, on less literate, more conservative people, at least in the US--at least until persons who really need these pronouns are comfortable interacting with and living with those communities. As Haus mentioned, it has become accepted as part of the dialect on barbelith, which is also, however, an entirely text-based media. I've used it a few times in speech and it's much more awkward than in text.

So, while we may not agree that there are "good" reasons for resistance to such a change in the language, I think we must agree that there are understandable reasons for profound resistance--reasons we'd do well to understand and empathize with if we want the language to change. My child came out a female-bodied male last year and I found changing prounouns to be very, very hard--even somewhat painful.

I would like to see more empathy and less self-righteousness on these issues than I see at times.

Because--and I can't decide if what I'm about to say is painfully obvious or controversial--identity is never simply something created or even "owned" individually. It's something that is created in social interactions and is therefore partly "owned" by the social order, social networks, which we require for life and growth. Social networks are not "optional" to identity. So one's individual identity always has to be negotiated with others.
 
 
fish confusion errata
20:40 / 08.03.07
Some more info on themself: it is not considered standard, but it is accepted by the majority of speakers in one study, so it might eventually become the standard.
 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
  
Add Your Reply