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Underground > Comic Books >

New X-Men - Will Someone Actually Die?

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Matthew Fluxington

16:16 / 29.10.02

Oh, I see - yr counting the Siege Perilous nonsense. I don't think it's fair to count things like that, cos if it's clear to the reader that the character isn't dying, it's not 'death' to me. I get the feeling that the 'death' Grant will be writing will be a lot less throwaway than Siege Perilous / "believed to be dead" crap.

Besides this, and that brief bit with Nanny and the Orphan Maker, when were the other times Storm 'died'? When was Colossus' second death? Wolverine's second death?

16:31 / 29.10.02

Oh, I see - yr counting the Siege Perilous nonsense. I don't think it's fair to count things like that, cos if it's clear to the reader that the character isn't dying, it's not 'death' to me.

But see, now we're getting into the slippery slope. What "counts" as a death? How many pages do we need to believe they are dead for? A handful? A few issues? A few years? The X-Men died before the Siege Perilous in Fall of the Mutants - they were resurrected by Roma. Does that "count?" I'm not actually counting the SP as a death (although perhaps we should - specifically in Psylocke's case).

I get the feeling that the 'death' Grant will be writing will be a lot less throwaway than Siege Perilous / "believed to be dead" crap.

I imagine you're right. But, as with certain characters in the past, we won't discover the victim was merely "believed to be dead." We know now that Xavier was just believed to be dead back in the early days, for example. But at the time? He died.

Besides this, and that brief bit with Nanny and the Orphan Maker, when were the other times Storm 'died'? When was Colossus' second death? Wolverine's second death?

All of the current X-Men were killed in UXM Annual 11 and again in UXM 227. Storm was killed again during the Nanny/Orphan Maker story, and her original body was killed during the second Brood storyline back in the UXM 160s. Again, these "count" to varying degrees. We might suppose the key factor in a death is time until the reappearance of the character, dismissing the UXM 11 and UXM 227 deaths. But again, how much time? Storm, Xavier, Jean and Havok were all believed to be dead for between several issues and several years, IIRC. Even Magneto was believed dead for quite a while before the whole Joseph thing.

With this history, is it really cynicism, as some have suggested, to have little doubt that the upcoming death is just another sales gimmick, one which will be overturned shortly after Morrison/Queseda leave the picture? Does anybody here really think we will never see Magneto in action again?

Personally, I think UXM 228 should have been the last issue of the series, and by this point the franchise a distant and beloved memory. But that's just me.

16:33 / 29.10.02

It's Jean. With 'The Invisibles' Ragged Robin and whatsername with the eye in her chest from 'Doom Patrol', Morrison's got a proven track record of red-headed women becoming semi-divine and stepping off into the Supercontext...

16:34 / 29.10.02

Xorn will die. What's the long-term use in any story of a character that can bring people from the dead for free? He'll evolve to become the most beloved guy of the book, he will be at the brink of solving the mutant-human antagonism, he will be the next guy as good as mother Teresa, he will necessarily antagonize Xavier, he will be cold-blooded killed in the vack, and we'll never get to see his face.

16:51 / 29.10.02

emma's called the white queen. she can turn into diamond. surely she has to be smashed into a million pieces and a shard land in someone's [scott's] eye?

17:48 / 29.10.02

she has to be smashed into a million pieces and a shard land in someone's [scott's] eye

That's bloody brilliant. Literally.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

18:54 / 29.10.02

I don't think Xorn can actually die, though, can he? I'm seeing some kind of cosmic talkdown between him and Jeanix. And, by the by, I am quite confident that no one on the cover of 136 will die. Many of our best loved students will undoubtedly bite it, but I doubt any of those five will. It's classic TV. Buffy: A SCOOBY WILL DIE (a scooby dies in the first episode she ever made it into the credits for). The cover of 136 is the opening credits. Consider them all alive for the much forseeable future. That was the problem with comics back in the day. So many unweildy characters and no opening credits core. Anyone could and did die. Now we've got ourselves some serious credit sequence style covers (135 & 136, I mean. Just cause Angel and Beak made the covers don't mean they're not destined for wormfood.)

I believe the gist of what grant said is that someone will die and the x-men will be changed forever. He didn't say that the first one would automatically be the second.

I remember the talk about E is for Extinction, when Grant said he killed more mutants in one page than in the entire history of the marvel universe combined and I imagined what kind of insanely huge fight Quitely would be drawing. We all know how that turned out.

Someone will die, yes. And I will be crushed, because every character is so freaking neat and interesting. Hell, I was sad when Ugly John died.

Benjamin.

Murray Hamhandler

19:32 / 29.10.02

I was going to withdraw my vote for Xavier in light of his importance to the franchise outside the comics...but then I remembered that Magneto's dead. And Colossus. And they're both going to be in the next film. So I stick w/Xavier.

Xorn might very well die, but it'll only be after Grant uses him to full effect. Xorn's a good character w/a lot of potential. As such, I don't see Grant letting him survive past the end of his run, if only so other writers don't fuck him up (as they're wont to do, don't you know...).

Oh, and yawn: "And Emma and Scott will become an item – the ‘fling’ meme is too obvious and weak. They’ll fall in love."

Geez. That's great. And it makes sense. Jean has the ability to do what Emma's doing w/r/t helping Scott through his shit but she hasn't. She said she'd be there for him, but where is she? Gallavanting about w/Xavier. We haven't seen much at all of Jean as part of a relationship. Maybe Emma isn't just aiming to stir up Jean's ire. Maybe she really does care. Who can say?

19:50 / 29.10.02

With the Ultimate line all of the characters can be alive for the media franchise hoo ha and be dead in the regular comic.

Me? I hope they kill Igor.

(Just kidding, I liked his work on Cable.)

Matthew Fluxington

20:32 / 29.10.02

See, I think it'd be very unfortunate for Grant to kill his own characters before his run ends, because they are some of the best contributions to the X-Canon in well over a decade. My understanding of Grant's run is to move the franchise foward, to create a fresh future for the series. Part of this includes having new characters that are meant to last, and I think Xorn is a character that many other writers would love to try their hand with. There's so much potential in that character, and it's very unlikely he'll be taken out after appearing in only a handful of issues.

01:14 / 30.10.02

I love Xorn.

Murray Hamhandler

01:38 / 30.10.02

I think it'd be unfortunate to see the character of Xorn go bye-bye, but I would rather see that then see lesser writers totally misuse him. Not to say that they necessarily would, but it's very likely.

Matthew Fluxington

10:50 / 30.10.02

Right, and no previous X-writers can stake a reasonable claim that Morrison is "mis-using" their characters...

Our Lady of The Two Towers

11:48 / 30.10.02

Xorn can't bring people back from the dead, or else he would have helped that big old mutant in issue 127. But isn't arguing that Morrison killing off someone is meaningless because the next writer could bring them back a bit like saying Delano's Hellblazer run was rubbish because you don't like what Garth Ennis wrote?

FWIW, I'd be surprised if Xavier died, after coming so close in the first year it might suggest a lack of ideas, plus I'm not sure if this mutant superiority complex he's developing is going to come to a head in the 'Riot' storyline.

The Natural Way

14:07 / 30.10.02

Fucking EVERYTHING suggests a lack of ideas to you, Lyra.

Murray Hamhandler

15:51 / 30.10.02

Fair enough, Flux. But I guess I probably won't have to worry about it even if Xorn does survive. Post-Morrison runs on books don't have a huge degree of artistic success (w/the exception of Rachel Pollack's DP. And, yes, I know I'm the only one who feels this way...), so I probably won't be reading Post-Morrison NXM for very long (although I'd love to be given a reason to).

Our Lady of The Two Towers

16:28 / 30.10.02

runce- was your last comment directed at me? I think if Xavier died it would be fair comment, Year One- Xavier nearly dies, Year Two- Xavier dies. Can you spot the simularity? But I'm not really going to be that fussed if it happens, for the first time in ages Morrison has made it so that the most interesting question about the characters is not "what if they die?" but "what if they live?"

17:09 / 30.10.02

"Nobody ever stays dead in comics"

nobody ever stays dead in Marvel comics. there's a whole laundry list of major DC characters who have bought it - the biggest three I can think of are Hal Jordan (Green Lantern), Barry Allen (the Flash), and Jason Todd (Robin). all of them have been replaced in some sense, but by other characters taking on the mantle of the deceased, not by returning dead characters themselves, and their deaths hang over their successors and others close to them. Jason Todd in particular weighs on the entire Batman mythos (especially Batman and Tim) like a lead weight.

while i've generally been a Marvel fan as far as superhero books go, i have to admit that DC in general has handled death better (with the obvious exception of the much-ado-about-nothing Death of Superman).

a question: when is Grant's run on NXM supposed to end?

Our Lady of The Two Towers

18:40 / 30.10.02

Though Hal Jordan has come back, kinda.

23:41 / 30.10.02

Captain Marvel? Dead.

The original Thunderbird? Dead.

Swordsman? Dead.

Gwen Stacy? Dead.

Uncle Ben? Dead.

Whizzer? Dead.

23:43 / 30.10.02

Also, as with your above-mentioned DC dead crew, another one accompanied them - Green Arrow.

He's alive again. This big-shot film director insisted.

And if the semi-legendary H.E.A.T. have their way, we'll see Jordan with a ring on his finger.

23:43 / 30.10.02

Again.

23:44 / 30.10.02

I think if Xavier died it would be fair comment, Year One- Xavier nearly dies, Year Two- Xavier dies. Can you spot the simularity?

I'd call that foreshadowing...

The Natural Way

07:40 / 31.10.02

Well, Lyra, I've started to notice a trend is all: Invisibles vol 3 - lack of ideas; The Filth - lack of ideas; NXM - lack of ideas. I think you might've said the same thing about Buffy 6....can't remember properly. It's like yr waiting for the creator to fuck up or something.

Xavier actually dying is, well, entirely different from his being in a coma - a completely different narrative/energy would spring out of his death. And yeah, Dunc, assuming this idea's on the money, the first year could be described as foreshadowing/a rehearsal.

Another factor in favour of the big guy's demise has to be Morrison's mission statement to portray the X Men as adults (as opposed to stupid, squabbling children who require the firm hand of baldaddy to tame and guide them). What better way to underline this new approach (and it is NEW) than to (perhaps semi) permanently dispose of this symbol of the team's childhood?

God, maybe Magneto's death was foreshadowing too... Fuck....

09:07 / 31.10.02

(Runce: Lyra is someone else...)

The Natural Way

09:16 / 31.10.02

What, two people posting under the same suit?

I'm not confusing him w/ Laurence, if that's what you think (but I am correct in assuming Lyra and Lada are the same poster, am I not?). I really like Lyra. Well, I don't actually dislike Laurence come to think of it...don't really dislike anyone...but, hey, this isn't about me - It's about the X MEN!

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:22 / 31.10.02

Off-topic, but let's clear this up.

(but I am correct in assuming Lyra and Lada are the same poster, am I not?)

No. Lyra Lovelaces = formerly Tyrone Shoelaces, likes disco. Lada = formerly Loz, likes dissing Warren Ellis.

Moving on: I don't think we should worry too much about how the impending movie sequel will affect the plot. Morrison has killed Magneto, got Xavier out of the chair and brought back the Phoenix - he's clearly being allowed quite a lot of freedom.

I'm going with Jean or Charles, but maybe that's because they're the two I'd be least upset about. I doubt it'll be Henry, if only because he's been a punching bag too much already. Unless Xorn completely dominates the next five or six issues, then I doubt he's done enough yet for Morrison to want to kill him off... and hell, I just don't want to see Emma or Scott buy it.

Think about this as well: Charles and Jean are the hardcore pacifists of the team. The storyline immediately after the issue in which someone is supposed to die, #140, is called 'Assault on Weapon X' - which suggests the pacifist influence may be severely weakened...

The Natural Way

11:28 / 31.10.02

God...I'm so embarrased, and I don't know how to explain, except to say that I think they must've injected me with some of that badarse key 23 Sir Miles got. Contrary to the above, I know Lyra and Lada are completely different people. I've always known that and I don't know what came over me (my comments were aimed at Lada). Sorry - I must look like a real weirdo now. I can't be bothered to attempt to explain the strange, confused thought process that led to all the bollocks that was my last post.

Please delete, lovely moderator.

yawn - thing's buddy

11:42 / 31.10.02

dinnae worry bout it - I'm always getting folks mixed up, ganesh.

11:44 / 31.10.02

But... Laurence and Lada are also separate people, right? Laurence is American and Lada is a nice Brit who collects money to give to Tom?

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

12:08 / 31.10.02

Oh wait. I forgot that I was totally wrong about the whole Nova/Xavier thing back in the day. Maybe Xorn will die....

God that would suck.

The whole "assault" thing definitely makes one think. The perpetrator of the death, then, may very well be linked to the Plus program. FannieMex?

Still, though, I think Xorn has stated on many an occasion that he can't die. But maybe that'll make it all the more shocking when he does? But he's definitely got the most solid excuse for a return. ("Why, James, you should know it's impossible to kill a star." "I DON'T SNIKT SO, BUB!" Sorry. I need to lay off the Ennis.) But if he died, wouldn't he wipe out New York in a gigantic cosmix vortex? Wasn't that the big catastrophe of the annual?

I don't know. But there are still some Morrison-creations running around. That kid who joined JSA with the lightning bolt thing. He's still around, right? And the Angel guy from JLA?

Anyway. I don't want Xornie to go. I love that asshole.
Benjamin.

Matthew Fluxington

12:16 / 31.10.02

I find it amazing that some of you are willing to seriously consider Xorn as the character who might die, because really, I'd say he's second only to Wolverine in terms of his death being extremely unlikely. There's a better chance of Scott dying, really...

11:39 / 01.11.02

Well, Flux, remember Aztek?!

I DO!

"Dear DC,

I cannot believe you allowed the brilliant character Aztek to die, just because so-called (probably self-proclaimed) 'genius' Grant Morrison wanted it. Protect your franchises! Remember Firestorm! He was great!

I know he created Aztek, but this really suxxxxxxxxxxx!!!!!

love,
Duncan."

As I, almost certainly, didn't write.

The Natural Way

11:48 / 01.11.02

Yeah, but Aztek sold for shit.

Matthew Fluxington

12:03 / 01.11.02

Right, Xorn is considerably more popular than Aztek. And Xorn doesn't have his own poorly-selling series. And Xorn is in every way better than Aztek. And Grant doesn't repeat EVERYTHING that he does, just some of it. Give him a little credit, okay?

What's the point of killing of Xorn before we even get to know him? Especially since he's been absent nearly all of the year, while Grant has been focusing on Charles and Jean, dropping lots of clues. One thing Grant DOES repeat in his work is that he likes to drop subtle clues from the beginning on about things that will happen later. Like, say, Charles muttering "are these words from the future" each time he has been confronted with an immensely powerful force. First it was Cassandra, the second time it was the Phoenix.

Think - in the first year, Charles and his twin sister killed millions of mutants and ruined an entire space empire. It's arguable that Cassandra was just a piece of Charles, and either way, she could not have caused that kind of destruction without him. In the most recent issue, the Shi'Ar tell Charles that the Phoenix has come to earth to "disinfect" the mutant race. Charles is a natural target for such a thing, isn't he?

I think the Phoenix will destroy Charles, and it's one of the only things in the X-World that is powerful enough to convincingly kill Charles yet leave him open for an eventual comeback.

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