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Castaneda and Magick

 
  

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Sebastian
14:19 / 12.07.02
I have been recently reviewing the work of Castaneda in order to get once again to the marrow of its magick, which is like finding and re-discovering the operating of magick itself that underlies every magickal system. I was deeply involved with the work of Castaneda a few years back, and I was and continue to be very appreciative of the warrior's way that is depicted in the books, mainly through conversations with Castaneda's mentor, Don Juan. The regrettable thing is that the warrior's way lies scattered among many other -too many other- topics in the books, topics that belong to a supposed "tradition" of mexican sorcerers long existing since before the conquest and recorded history, the "Toltec Sorcerers", with all the creepy flaws, fixed traps, dogmas and taboos of just any well built TrrAdiTTioN. But Don Juan makes it amusingly clear at different points of the work that he does not give a dime for any tradition or set of knowledge, and this is somewhat the best spirit of the whole thing and delight that Don Juan conveys through the work.

As I come to understand it today, the warrior's way is a way of accruing magickal power. Simply put, it goes "do your best, whatever it is you choose to do". It has no prescribed rituals, and does not contraindicate any. If we were to say that sigilisation is not a "chaos magick" technique but rather an A.O. Spare derived technique, then there would be no difference between a warrior and a chaos magickian, or if you prefer they would be immediate close cousins, or very look-alike step-brothers. They are both scoundrels of magickal power, the Arsene Lupins of magick, elegant, flexible, and very respectful, and of course, if their intimate paradigms were to come to light under rather mundane perspectives, they would undoubtedly be judged as fundamentally immoral, ontological anarchists of perception, and threatening sons of no one. But a warrior and a chaote choose in advance the setting to reveal their agendas, and creating this or any kind of turmoil is done in a strategic, premeditated manner, to get the fullest out of it, and to ride on the momentum.

As for magick and magickal intentions, the warrior's way deals from the beginning with the "lust for desire" and "denial of manifestation". Actually, these are the only enemies in the warrior's war, recognized by mocking Don Juan as a hysterical "self-pity" attitude that predates the entire human race, an always present self-pity which in the Toltec world comes to be the only block standing between the warrior and an endless universe to be experienced. The weapon against "self-pity" is called "controlled folly", or "unbending intent", which basically means that whatever it is that you do or intend, the universe (or the Tao, the Karma, or The All Ominous Toltec Eagle), does not give a shit about you getting it or not, and so must you, but you must still do or intend it to your best. Additionaly, in case manifestation occurs "when I least expected it", a warrior must always be on full waking alert, ready to jump and ride on the opportunity, the timely synchronicity, or what Don Juan calls "the cubic centimeter of luck" that appears in your way, the bone to bite the universe will throw at you. Joining with shamanic lore, this is also referred to as the warrior's "hunt" or "gathering of power", which is cumulative, as "power" itself recognises a warrior-hunter on the move and arranges his path with its own inescrutable designs.

In short, a warrior must actively seek and do anything for the impossible to occur, with no expectations of it ever occurring. And I think that's it for an introduction.
 
 
cusm
16:08 / 12.07.02
"just do it"
 
 
Sebastian
18:09 / 12.07.02
In the time travel thread, back in May, online resources for Castaneda were asked for.

I am introducing here what are probably the most complete and in-formational sites (maybe overwhelmingly informational), and recommend them to those already familiar with Castaneda's work, and also for those that are not, as an attempt to go skip the summarised explanations which have done much to sum up to the innate confusion of an already convoluted topic.

Sustained Action, A website devoted to exploring and evaluating the legacy of Carlos Castaneda, and to investigating other possibilities for increased awareness and expanded perception.
For those interested, this site has accounts, testimonials, and reports from atendees to irregular sessions and meetings Castaneda organised sometime before getting involved with the evergreen people, or whatever was the name. It also tracks biographies of the other "sorcerors" from his party that wrote the Castaneda-related novels.

Carlos Castaneda's Don Juan's Teachings, an interesting and resourceful approach to Carlos Castaneda's books, compiled under the following premise:
This book is a compilation of most of the ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, and principles of the teachings of don Juan presented by Carlos Castaneda. I have, where necessary, changed the original text in order for the teaching to be directed as though from don Juan to any new student.
Quite rigorous and meticulous, will be of help in discussing the whole thing.

And let the dissection commence.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
08:26 / 13.07.02
"cubic centimeter of luck."
I like that. That's so fucking true.
 
 
Rev. Wright
10:39 / 13.07.02
Be sure to check out Daniel C. Noel's The Soul of Shamanism, that I mentioned in the Shamansm help thread. He has also published Seeing Castenada, a summery of it here and here.
 
 
Papess
02:27 / 14.07.02
Thank you Sebastian for those online resources about Castenada and The Warrior's Way.

I love your introduction. I have to talk to you about this. I would really like to quote you to pass on to another group. I am having trouble expressing what you have so elloquently expressed here. PM me if you want so, it does not interrupt the thread.

**gently shifting back**

Nice, very, very nice

~May Tricks
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
21:33 / 15.07.02
The Toltec Path (aka The Idiot's Guide To Sorcery) by Ken Eagle Feather

Pretty much a manual formed out of the works of Castaneda and his fellow warriors as well as what Broken Eagle Feather was taught by (?)Don Juan Matus(?)

The funny thing is: I was studying nagualism long before Invisibles came out, and learned about The Assembelage Point. I had a hard time believing it as more than a figment of my warped imagination until I saw it administered to Dane McGowan by Mad Tom. (In the exact spot, between the shoulders,above the body)

I have had alot of success with the Castaneda techniques, and we could really go all out in this thread if you all are game...

...but in the mean time, I reccomend: The Eagles Gift by Carlos Castaneda to give you a nice overall view of The Toltec Path,in story form.

8 years of Carlos...and I thought I was alone.
 
 
Wyrd
00:27 / 16.07.02
Hmm, the funny thing is that I only read Castaneda last year. After many years of working shamanically. So, I approached the books with a certain amount of experience under my belt. The one thing I noticed immediately was that whoever Don Juan was (whether he was invented by Castaneda, or actually existed), he knew what he was talking about. There were plenty of things stated in the book that are quite true, and very damn good advice. It appears to me that there are core ideas embedded in the book in a clever way so that the right people will get the information they will need, and those who aren't ready won't get much from the books.

Whether Castaneda was a prophet or a liar is besides the point in many ways, what's important is one's individual response to his teachings and what one takes from it.

I noticed you start the thread talking about the warrior's path of magic. That is a very interesting subject, and perhaps deserves it's own thread.
 
 
Sebastian
13:48 / 16.07.02
I am glad we won't be discussing whether Don Juan existed or not. He has had as much impact in my life as Peter Parker has, and is as fictional as Don Quijote and Sherlock Holmes who have practically permeated the entire realm of literature beyond their creators.

The assemblage point was for me the ultimate and most challenging topic. I used to think about it as a great metaphor for dealing with phenomena of "perception", but then I've come to think that the assemblage point in itself is sort of a consensuated, objective perception among toltec sorceres that train and condition themselves to perceive it. This is not different to what happens among radiologists and radiology training, where you sit for three years in front of thousands of x-rays with other radiologists until you finally get to "see" things that people out of radiology can not even conceive.

Whatever, I have not craved much to get to see by myself the assemblage point, or luminous filaments, or cocoons, and never had this "seeing" activity on my "to do" list.
 
 
6opow
06:13 / 17.07.02
Alright! I really love when we get to talk about Castenada without worrying about whether he was real or a figment of Castenada's constructions [OK, that is a funny late night slip that I was going to ask the moderators to change to "...when we get to talk about Don Juan..." but I think, in some ways, it deserves to stay the way it is]. I strongly agree with Wyrd when she says, "Whether Castaneda was a prophet or a liar is besides the point in many ways, what's important is one's individual response to his teachings and what one takes from it." I found some of the imagery presented quite helpful as tools for thought, meditation, etc, and it doesn't matter to me whether the source is a fiction or not (as, I see, a few of you above recognize! A friend of mine used to work with Spock as one of his four guardians, stations, or whatever.).

I too found the assemblage point and the filament imagery very valuable. Recently, I have been thinking about how seeing the assemblage point occurs within the point itself, like the filaments loop in wild mad mobius strips back around, through, a one sided closed loop strange attractor. That's my diZzy spells for ya'!

I had recently read in a Castenada (can't remember which one, sorry ) book that, although the old sorcerors wanted to bend themselves into a circle, they could never quite succeed. Kinda' like infinite intertwining spirals, those filaments: the endless edge of a fractal, the serpent reaching for its tail.

Anyway, Rex it is a funny thing that when you were, "...studying nagualism...and learned about The Assembelage Point. [You] had a hard time believing it...until I saw it administered to Dane McGowan by Mad Tom," in a comic: it seems that one non/fiction was somehow more convincing than the other non/fiction!



That "always present self-pity" I know all too well. This whole aspect of being human I find a recurring thing in my life. I remember one time when I was reading "The Art of Dreaming" I had my first really truly lucid dream. It was quite a trip. Suddenly I found myself on a street from my dream world I had been on many times, the representation of a street from my childhood. I looked up and there was a portal in the sky, opened by the elementals for me to follow them into. I was frightened by this sudden call to visit what might have been an "...endless universe to be experienced" and instead I told myself that I wasn't yet ready to go with them. Suddenly the scene shifted, and although the dream was still lucid, I felt that I had offended my psyche, the elementals, the universe, or whatever. Haven't seen that sorta' thing since. I hope one day to maybe see it or something similar again. But I have still had lucid dreams on occasion. I would like to actually work on invoking them more often. Here's to the end of outdated and unneeded bad habits!

 
 
Papess
18:30 / 17.07.02
***terribly excited by this discussion***

I will jump in later and add something of some substance. For now, I am just sooo happy this discussion is happening, my assemblage point has moved to the place of the blathering idiocy!!!


With Love from May
 
 
Papess
14:26 / 18.07.02
Ahh, the assemblage point. A definate key worth turning.

Shifting is just the begining though. When all points are lit up, do you then become a fully aware point on another body? Then, what if that body of light is all lit up? Until, we have full, complete universal awareness. Just a thought.

What about the freedom that Don Juan speaks of? Since the whole point of the neo-sorceror is to accomplish this. (I still like the term Sorceror) Can this be accomplished in one lifetime, or is it possible that one has to move their conscience from body to body alot like the concept of reincarnation until enough energy is gathered through practice and the stalking of Power. And really, what is this unfathomable Freedom? Do I really want it? I guess it is better a fate than the beak of the Eagle!

**Just asking some burning questions. I think I have more! Standby for incoming bafflement!

~May Tricks
 
 
6opow
19:00 / 18.07.02
What about the freedom that Don Juan speaks of?

Well, I have been wondering if it is the same sort of freedom that Sartre talks about in his Existentialist philosophy: a terrible and awsome freedom that most people try to convince themselves they don't have ("bad faith" in Sartre's books). It seems to me that the absolute freedom might be that we can define ourselves through our intent. As Don Juan says at one point, "A sorceror intends what he [or she] intends simply by intending it." Seems very similar to Sartre's notion that we can only define ourselves by our acts, and we have no pre-existent framework on which to judge the value of our choices: we have to make the choice (or the intent) before we can evaluate it. It is the overwhelming freedom to make life whatever we choose, but we have to choose consciously (and this seems the most terrifying).

Personally, I think that reincarnation is bunk. I tend to feel that we are a part of everything that is, was, will be: it is all us, but we spend most of our time trying to forget this, and this allows us to function in a linear lifetime. Perhaps the freedom is the freedom of a self-conscious universe? Perhaps it is the goal of waking ourselves up to the totality of non/existence and (un)living {everything, nothing} that n/ever was/n't. But maybe this is why none of the old sorcerors could never quite succeed: there is an infinite regress that occurs within the paradox generated by a self referencing conundrum. Ain't life simply the best?!



m3 = 444
 
 
Papess
13:25 / 19.07.02
GDR,
It is true that the old sorcerors could not quite get the freedom thing happening because they moved from point to point instead of illuminating all points and shifting the enitre assemblage into their freedom. Really though, did they have good reason not too? I mean of course, other than an earthly obsession of power.

I am wondering what exactly does this freedom entail? It is a step into the nagual, or unknown. Does taking this step actually create a danger to the warrior. Maybe this is a tough question because it is like asking about dying but really, at least we all know people who have died, I know very few who have actually gone for their freedom.

Is it time to step off now or have I missed the boat? And was that boat headed for a waterfall?

I think Don Jaun would have slapped me by now but, there are no stupid questions...right?

May
 
 
Sebastian
13:38 / 19.07.02
Borges would not have disliked the idea that waking up each day is in a sense a full blown re-incarnation. I wish I had one of his poems at hand where he comments on the so much over-looked subtleties of waking up.

The assemblage point metaphor within the a luminous cocoon is fine, but as the strictly spatial metaphor that Don Juan draws on a board to show Carlos (in The Fire From Within) it can not hold for the immensity of what it is attempting to describe, simply because you can not draw nor even accurately conceive in 3D space filaments of light etending to infinity that are everywhere at the same time. I mention this because one of the nutty things associated to the assemblage point I have seen outside the Castaneda work, and sometimes within it in Don Juan discourses, is that while it is agreed that the universe we perceive is a construct (neurological, metaphorical, whatever), then they go and tell us what the universe indeed "is", and that you can also -and even that you must- see it. For me, this sounds as amusing and tempting as entering into another collective delusion, with a more or less elitist strain, and believe me I have struggled with people that have impressive descriptions of what the filaments "are" and how they "feel" to touch -and the struggle was becuase they insisted that other things "I" would perceived were "not" the filaments. In a sense, this is like actually believing that the Watson&Crick 3D spiral DNA hanging in the musem or in the Science mag cover is just what DNA "looks like" inside the cells.

The one value I try to rescue out of this toltec rigmarole of assembling filaments is not that: perception takes place at the assemblage point which is located at arm's lenght behind every human being's right shoulder blade, but rather that perception is either fixed or flexible, and that it can indeed change farther beyond from what we are usually told it can, not from just changing how we think about "things", or what we think about mommy and daddy, but to literally revealing whole new landscapes to which you simply can not tie the end of a rope and come back here to tie the other end.

As for moving the assemblage point, I agree with G.D.G coupling Don Juan to Sartre in the sense that "we can only define ourselves by our acts". We have no other best option but to choose and decide our intent, we have to actively decide what every event literally is or means, or someone else will decide it for us before we even realise we had the chance to do so (and I guess all the things that already "are" and we have no memory of deciding upon them belong to someone -or something- else's agenda). After deciding, then we intend it, we "fake it till we make it", we gather intent with sheer will, maybe during a lifetime, who knows. Once we made it, and its "real", we can say the assemblage point has moved, but I guess the ultimate warrior will never disregard a voice in his mind whispering that it can be moved again.
 
 
ciarconn
13:52 / 19.07.02
I read the start of this topic just before going to the beach, and I had some time to think about it. (Weird experiences at the beach, by the way, not too nice, but I learned a lot... I hope)

I do not know if Castaneda was a liar, a cheater, or if he simply used the power of all his readers to push up his own burn-up. The best way to understand Castaneda's system is to go beyond the words and ideas in the books, and comprehend the deeper implications in them. It is only in the deep underloayings of the system that one can find the coincidences with other systems. the creation of the dream bodies, the last jump "graduation", and the second dreamer (which was developed by Victor Sanchez) go along the selfplex theory being developed by some chaos magickians now. The intent weaving reality is the same as the quantic matrix of reality (and by the way, chaos magick would be a way of mastering intent, in Castanedian terms)
On the assemblage point (and the light cocoons), as someone said it, it's just an effective way of visualizing conscience, it's state and it's development (a bit better than chackras), and thus it has to be learned (as al perceptual forms/modes have to be)

On Freedom, I think they meant the freedom of intent determination, gained by recapitualtion and not-doing one-self, things that allow the sorcerer to be free of the determinating intent of other people (and thus allows hir to do more with his own intent)

Which leads me to the point I find more questionable in Castaneda's way: the loneliness. A really effective srocerer/warrioir in Castaneda's way ends up being alone and lonely (Much like Nietzsche's superman), and does no have space in his life for love (because it's only a projection of his personal importance). Opinions?
 
 
Papess
16:35 / 19.07.02
ciarconn stated:
"Which leads me to the point I find more questionable in Castaneda's way: the loneliness. A really effective srocerer/warrioir in Castaneda's way ends up being alone and lonely (Much like Nietzsche's superman), and does no have space in his life for love (because it's only a projection of his personal importance). Opinions?"

Ahh, the loneliness. 'Tis true friend. We do have the benefit of onlne interactions in place like this though. I mean, I have one really good friend and they are my friend because they also understand the world the way I do. Because they Ze is also a warrior, it has made all our relationships go sour since there is no understanding of what a "love relationship" means to a warrior/sorceror. To others, unfamiliar with the path, we may seem a bit cold. Beyond my own self-importance, I personally believe there is a place for a relationship in a warrior's life. Being a warrior does trim the herd a bit as far as eligable partners. They would have to have a good working knowledge of a spiritual path at least, be very open-minded, allow for some unusual behaviors and be an incredibally good lay. I mention this last point because well, warriors tend to not need too much at all so, if your not any good at it, a warrior might not even waste their energy trying!

As I was taught by a warrior, I leaarned that there is a partner for me. He is what my teacher called "my other". This "other" is my life-partner who will be able to catalyst for me and push me to be impeccable just by them being themself. That, in a nutshell, is the relationship I believe a warrior CAN have without worrying about projections. 'Cause really, it is all a projection anyway, you might as well have a good time while you are here!

**sparks one for Don Juan**

~May
 
 
Sebastian
18:49 / 22.07.02
I don't remember how I got to it (I hope it wasn't already from a thread here) but I recently found and read the film review Gnosticism Reborn: The Matrix as Shamanic Journey which by its second half introduces a quite compounding paralel between the Matrix movie and a topic introduced in Castaneda's last book, The Active Side of Infinity, a paralel that will definitely make something for the Barbelith-er's palate. The whole review is rather long, but it keeps alive and interesting during the whole reinterpretation of the story and the intitiation parable.
 
 
ciarconn
23:56 / 25.07.02
First point: Don Juan/Carlitos introduced the concept of a predatorial universe and the Eagle eating our awareness in the Eagle's gift, He seems to have developed that idea into something more... ad hoc to modern times in his last (?) book. Anyway, the coincidence with The Matrix is almost scary. He had pointed that the Eagle "gave" us the chance of escaping it... now we manage to escape the greatest tyrant...

To another, more trascendent, point. To those ex-castanedians, those that changed their ways or asimilated new ones... a question: did any of you have problems to leave behind this paradigm? to stop working with their magickal laws? To stop working in the role you had inside a party?
 
 
Sebastian
13:35 / 26.07.02
Ciarconn: Don Juan/Carlitos introduced the concept of a predatorial universe and the Eagle eating our awareness in the Eagle's gift, He seems to have developed that idea into something more...

Ur right, both ideas are immersed in the notion of a give-and-take, creepy predatory universe, but the concept of the flyer is somewhat different to that of the Eagle in the books. The Eagle is the incommensurable burst of energy the toltec seers of yore saw when they atttempted to "see" the very source of the universe. They didn't see an Eagle actually, they came up with the metaphor for us, the regular folks. The Eagle, or this vast source of convoluted energy, creates, erupts and engulfs "awareness of being" (or the universe itself if you concede), and the seers also saw how human consciousness was being born from it and going back to it after dying, like rain drops falling back to the ocean (my metaphor). The seers interpreted that the Eagle was eating at the time of death the memories and experiences humans had gathered through the very awareness with which they had been gifted. The notion of the Eagle was then tightly tied to the recapitulation procedure, which is supposed to make you un-eatable to the Eagle at the moment of dying, cause you are supposeddly energetically devoid (detached) of your lived experiences, and you can sort of, well, bypass being eaten by the Eagle, and be free, whatever that is. A nice story to freak out children, or to build an entire religion.

The flyers, also called shadow or mud beings, are freakish semi-invisible, and individual beings supposeddly draining us on a daily basis, our close dimensional neighbors. They are easy to see precisely in the shadows. There is the story of Castaneda deciding to tell the world about them (!!) because someone showed him a picture of the pyramids in Egypt with a shadow being captured flying above them, and no matter how much I search the web, I can not find it today. The Nagual.net has an extensive doc about Los Voladores (the Flyers) that from the Matrix movie perspective is definitely chilling.
 
 
ciarconn
12:52 / 28.07.02
after your message, I decided to go and buy that book (I had decided I didn't want to read it because it was published after Castaneda's "death"(?)). I was at the mall (sp) with My wife, my sister-in-law and my two god=daughters, and I started reading it while they drank some sodas.

Snap crackle pop

I had almost instant effects

A sharp pain in the middle of my back

But it felt good, as something I really missed from my life
So, I'll get back to you on the flyers as soon as I finish the book

But meanwhile, a point that could be interesting to analyze here is sex and magick. Don Juan tells Carlos to not to have sex, because he needs that energy to keep his assemblage point stable, but Julian (juan's teacher) had a lot of sex. Taisha Avelar (one of Castaneda's sexond group) is told that men drain woimen's power through sex (and it's a link supossed to lastg 7 years). And in different traditions, sex is either used as a way to go "up", or avoided... any thoughts?
 
 
Papess
13:16 / 28.07.02
Taisha Avelar (one of Castaneda's second group) is told that men drain women's power through sex -ciarconn

My guess is that Taisha was told this because on one hand it is true if but I do believe the book regrettably does not mention iot is also bad for men. If I may qualify however, only if not done in the manner a warrior would do anything at all.

For women who have sex with men, there are hooks that the energy body instinctively puts into the womb of a woman and there are ways to overcome them by doing certain magickal passes or just plain abstinence for 7 years. My teacher tried to scare me in the very way Taisha was but I realized later, these hooks were not onlyto my detriment , but could be used in reverersal to suck the energy from the man. Altogether a waste of energy and very "Old Sorceror". I think that is why in the long run most systems will discourage sex because it is a distraction or if you must have sex, do it IMPECCABLLY

Although I tried the former method, I think I prefer the later

-May
 
 
Sebastian
13:03 / 29.07.02
Ciarconn, I enjoyed a lot The Active Side of Infinity. I found it to be the most shamelessly novelised of all and I liked that. Tell us how it went.

As for Toltec SeX, I always wondered why Julian or Don Juan never taught the other chaps how to master it, considering they had the knowledge to do pretty amazing things. I personally do not advocate any stand on the matter, but everyone knows for certain that pretty amazing things start happening when you pull yourself to any of the extremes. I would advise a good sip of caution and your own good ol' common sense when anyone in your life starts giving directions regarding sexual activity, unless it is your gynecologist or urologist, but especially if it is anybody from your mother in law, to your bank account agent, and even your most beloved spiritual master, who may also be a little bit deranged. I used to hang with a loose group of sorcerers and I found it just cool that we had no general directive on our sexual lives.

By the way, the matter of "dream" sex is never discussed in the Castaneda books, and if you go into strict abstinence you are likely to get serious assaults while asleep, if you get what I mean. I mention this because I presently think the energy hooks May mentions are not just only placed through sex in waking life, and -alternatively- not just only through sex in dreaming life. Just honestly ask yourself how many energy hooks from other people you think you have inside, and then tell me if you went to bed with all of them.
 
 
ciarconn
23:08 / 29.07.02
On a book by Victor Sanchez (a mexican who claims to be in the same tradition of Castaneda, but not of the same lineage), he mentioned that it was not the sex that burned power, but the intention, the ego, behind the acts. Sounds like the Impecability mentioned by May Tricks.

Another point: the normal ego (self importance?) against the magickian/wizard/warlock/etc ego. Not-doings, controlled folly, go against the normal ego; but, what happens when one has built an ego based on a magickian's image? there might be moments when the not-doing of the normal ego give power to the magickian ego, how do you avoid it? (particularly if the magickian ego is already developed)
 
 
Sebastian
12:19 / 30.07.02
Ur right again regarding egos. Don Juan also warns about the magickian ego as another builted ego, a more sophisticated and "glamorous" ego than that of the common man, but still an ego separated from the abstract or the spirit. In Don Juan terms, attachment to the magickian ego was the dead-end of the so much commented old toltec sorcerers, who got blinded by their own power. In short, I think he was refering to the fact that when you die, you have to get rid of it, or otherwise the Eagle will do it for you with its own talons. Legitimate and honest not-doings would not necessarily feed any ego, they are supposed to make you a perfect walking-dead.

In Journey to Ixtlan, after Carlos talks to the coyote in the desert, Don Juan comments that he had entered in the world of the sorcerers, another world, another description, another ego, and that the target of experience he intended for Carlos was somehow in between, a direct experience of the abstract, which is even more devoided of builted in constructions.

Seeing happens only when one sneaks between the worlds; the world of ordinary people and the world of sorcerers.
The real thing is when the body realizes that it can see. Only then is one capable of knowing that the world we look at every day is only a description. My intent has been to show you that.

Quoted from Rick Mace's transcript of Journey to Ixtlan
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
18:44 / 30.07.02
Don Juan tells Carlos to not to have sex, because he needs that energy to keep his assemblage point stable, but Julian (juan's teacher) had a lot of sex. Taisha Abelar (one of Castaneda's sexond group) is told that men drain woimen's power through sex (and it's a link supossed to lastg 7 years). And in different traditions, sex is either used as a way to go "up", or avoided... any thoughts?

Here's where it all comes down to seeing the luminous body. Carlos, from what I have been told was a randy little anthropologist who was quite active in the "free love" movement of the time.(UCLA?)
Not only was it dispersing his energy, but, it was a constant source of distraction to the young brujo. ( Also, as we all know, whatever is held in the mind at point of orgasm becomes implanted...a big part of that warning from DJ as well...)

Imagine:
You are a battery (hey Neo!) You only have so much "life force/energy" in this lifetime (unless you find a way to find more)Everytime you have sex or masturbate, you are tricking your body into thinking it is reproducing. This takes a MASSIVE ammount of personal energy away. More so for women seemingly, as child birth leaves a "large gaping hole" in the luminous body.As well, energy fillaments from every partner (for women) remain in the womb for a period of 7 years.

I think it comes down to different cases for different people combined with the ability to "see" the luminous body.

There.
Hope that made sense.

A couple of other points I would like to throw out here...

1) Conception- The conception of a child and it's essence/personality is determined by The mood/conditions of the act of sex itself. (i.e. if your parents just laid there during sex/ no passion, then the child turns out to be dull/hum drum...etc) Hope you follow that one.

2) We haven't even touched on The Groups and their formations. What are the thoughts on the four households, the nagual woman, etc?

This is by far one of my favorite threads. I have waited four years to talk about this here. Keep it up.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
18:52 / 30.07.02
P.S. (porgot something) Active side of infinity was great. You have to keep in mind that Carlos has told the same story 3 times now. The first time (the first three books) he was more wrapped up in the wonder of it all and the drugs (funny, that's what most people got out of it) The second time, he recapitulated WHAT REALLY HAPPENED and what he was truly taught...so he fleshed it out again in the next series of books. Active side of infinity, was the end of Carlos. His moment of true reflection on his remarkable life. He made even the most mundane experiences of his life into magical exchanges.

That truly is the secret of sorcery.

Magic always exists.Don Juan was trying to teach CC that life is a gift, an adventure, a chance. Take it out of the mundane and place it in the abstract.

Or from the Tonal to the Nagual
 
 
ciarconn
02:49 / 31.07.02
"2) We haven't even touched on The Groups and their formations. What are the thoughts on the four households, the nagual woman, etc?"

Two ideas around this

a)The personal history: I do not know if this happened to anybody else, but I would believe that it a relatively common happening. I read most of Castaneda's books when I was a teenager, and my social life was shaped by the gathering and dinamics of Castanedian parties. Maybe it was a mistake, maybe it was just my perception, maybe it happened. I am not sure if it damaged my socialization (which was poor by itself). But it was a weird high-speed reproduction of the scheme of formation and development of the typical party... several times, first on my own party(ies), and then forming other parties. The process seems to have slowed down now. But then again, I seem to be now in the stage of learnign and developing myself.

b)double group structure: The four-based structure stopped being used with DJ, Castaneda had a three-based structure, that changed the form of his party. And yet, he never cleared how's that structure
. Florinda "Donner and Taisha Avelar are supposed to be a part of this second party, and his nagual woman stayed in here (supossedly).

c)the nagual woman... geez louise! I have felt a form of serene hapiness, of tranquility, and at the same time, the electric anticipation of their energy. they can go beyond without much effort. They are amazing and admirable.
 
 
ciarconn
03:06 / 31.07.02

1)conception: As I have perceived it, there is a more direct relationship with the power quantity of the parents, both during the conception and along the pregnancy. The awareness is formed progressively along the pregnancy, not only during the conception, even if the basic structure is created with the orgasm. the intent/ion of the parents, their directed love/atention feed the awareness of the baby, as do while s/he grows hir first years.

2)dream sex/dreaming sex: Scary stuff, Sebastian. the intent/ion is more powerful than the physicality of it. Some of the people I worked with it tripped with this. Has anyone tried to have sex while dreaming/in dreaming. It must be a great loss of power, but an interesting experience
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
18:53 / 31.07.02
)double group structure: The four-based structure stopped being used with DJ, Castaneda had a three-based structure, that changed the form of his party. And yet, he never cleared how's that structure
. Florinda "Donner and Taisha Avelar are supposed to be a part of this second party, and his nagual woman stayed in here (supossedly).


This was due to CC luminous structure. Where as a "normal nagual man" (ie Don Juan) was recognizable to a seer by his 4 compartment ( the luminous body on a non nagual is divided in two, where a "nagual" is divided in four.) structure.Don Juan proclaimed Carlos to be a new breed of sorcerer due to his three tier luminous bieng.

Carlos Castaneda ended the sorcerer's lineage and the ways of the old sorcerers. Let's not forget that this knowledge is said to have been passed down through a lineage, one at a time. When Carlos published the books, or rather, when Don Juan was shown by the spirit that Carlos was candidate, all the rules changed when the knowledge was released and all humanity was given a chance to learn the core principals of all magic and an opportunity for everyone to achieve freedom.
 
 
Papess
03:56 / 01.08.02
Freedom eh?

Well Goddamnit, what are ya waiting for?

Be back now, about later


And back to the sex talk....
Let me reveal a bit of my own experience. It is the only thing I know to be true and that is all I have to offer.

I love sex, tremendously. Most do I suppose. I however, used to place way too much importance on it and the connections I made by it. This is where the filaments come in. It was my intent that the sex I had made connections. For me thus, the filaments had that to stick to. As I learned to place less importance on sex, it did not matter who or how I had sex because the filaments did not stick.

I believe everything is a agreed upon to a large degree. There are those who would disagree in the case of rape or assualt but really, my theory stands for me regardless of PC onslaught. As a warrior I have to agree to let those filaments reside in me. I know better, better than to let that happen! So I remove them. That is MY intent and that is what happens. Nothing happens that I have not agreed upon to some degree, there has to be my consent or it doesn't work. A sorceress can remove the filaments of a football team if she wishes. Sex is just sex. Enjoy each and every delicious stroke to the fullest and then put the sex-thing in it's proper place on the tonal. You know, like we finish eating a meal and put that where it belongs, or have a shower or let out a fart. These things we do not place enormous amounts of energy in because they have no greater importance to us than any other behavior.

Now on that note, I do believe sex can be a very special behavior that, with another person of precise and paralell intent to your own, can prove to be transcending, even capable of gaining your freedom by engaging in it.

Having said that though, isn't there a sorceror's story of a warrior who gained his freedom while passing gas?

ROTFLMAO :P

One more thing before I go to my lovely bed....

Rex Said:

He made even the most mundane experiences of his life into magical exchanges.

That truly is the secret of sorcery.

Magic always exists.Don Juan was trying to teach CC that life is a gift, an adventure, a
chance. Take it out of the mundane and place it in the abstract.

Or from the Tonal to the Nagual


Touche my dear friend...Touche

With love and oodles of sex, kisses, hugs and other obnoxious bodily functions...hehehe
-MayTricks
 
 
ciarconn
01:39 / 02.08.02
May tricks' message leads me to a bigger question:
What are the limitations of intent? I mean, in the context of Castaneda, different behaviors have especific consequences in the energetic structure (which is/represents the awareness), so, the way to achieve the goal (which/whatever it is)is based on behaving in specific ways (the way of the warrior, not-doing, controlled folly...), BUT, Can those changes be achieved alternatively by the force of intent? Could I disengage all my relationship lines by pure intent, without resorting to the recapitulation ritual? Could I use my energetic/dream body without passing through the dreaming training? Hell, could I shoo away my flyer by the pure force of my intent? (and as I write this, I am starting to feel nausea). Be back with other questions later
 
 
Sebastian
13:01 / 02.08.02
Recapitulation, not-doings, warrior's way, controlled folly, gates of dreaming, they are all procedures, step by step techniques to accrue power, magickal power, or intent, sheer intent if you want, and as far as the human specie goes, there are a myriad, zillions of them designed and described, and you can still learn and find about more. Robert Anton Wilson describes in Cosmic Trigger how he used John Lilly's tapes while on psychedelics for "charging" himself. The tape basically went: "You can do anything, you have no limits. You can do anything, you have no limits." on and on and on (a very RAW way of charging).

In a related thread on Techniques I wrote about the notion (step 5) that the more magickal power you have accrued the more consensual and precise your desires are fullfilled. In this line, you have the inititated magickian that wants to be a millionaire, sweats a spell, and finds a five dollar bill on the street, and you have the all powerful magickian that builts castles out of the air by just muttering magickal words, or gets rid of interdimensional parasites by just staring at them.

There is a magnifficient passage in Tales of Power(this is Mace's respectful version), in which Don Juan explains about personal power and human limitations to Carlos,

Everything we do, everything we are, rests on our personal power. If we have enough of it, one word uttered to us might be sufficient to change the course of our lives. But if we don't have enough personal power, the most magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference.

Then he goes for the example,

I'm going to utter perhaps the greatest piece of knowledge anyone can voice. Let me see what you can do with it. Do you know that at this very moment you are surrounded by eternity? And do you know that you can use that eternity, if you so desire?

Of course, Carlos, and any of us, would just tell the new agey guy to go get a hamburger and a beer.

I have revealed it to you, but it doesn't make a bit of difference, because you don't have enough personal power to utilize my revelation. Yet if you did have enough power, my words alone would serve as the means for you to round up the totality of yourself and to get the crucial part of it out of the boundaries in which it is contained.

Outside those boundaries, there is just the limit we put to our imagination. I am going to re-read the whole great passage from the book. Its near the beginning, and still makes me feel an asshole.

We are a feeling, an awareness encased here. We are luminous beings and for a luminous being only personal power matters.
 
 
Papess
19:35 / 02.08.02
Beautifully put Sebastian. Thank you for the referencing and clarity.

"

Recapitulation, not-doings, warrior's way, controlled folly, gates of dreaming, they are
all procedures, step by step techniques to accrue power, magickal power, or intent,
sheer intent if you want, and as far as the human specie goes, there are a myriad,
zillions of them designed and described,"
-Sebastian


It is so true. You have to do the work. It is all about energy we have and the energy we spend, so to speak. If you want to perform great magickal feats, you need great magickal energy to do them. Not-doings are a great way to store energy, recapitulation is a great way to free up blockages to store energy and also generates or recharges one's energy.

If everyday you create an intent, that intent manifests, ( if that is your intent). Sometimes, by doings something repetatively, it can become "second nature" in your daily activities. Leaving you to do other things. .... Everything becomes a not-doing. Some not-doings are more conducive to gathering energy than others. Dance, martial arts, yoga, meditation, even walking and dreaming are all methods of acquiring power or stalking power. Different methods of stalking work for different people, according to their predaliction. I practice a few but, feel by making every act a magickal act, even the most mundane, one gathers energy al the time. This takes daily practice. You have to work at it everyday. Even if you have enormous amounts of personal energy, one day you are going to have to refill the tank. No one should be running on empty, err...I think you can damage the engine that way. You know, your body.


With Love
-May

Sometimes the body and intent merge so well, you no longer have to do it super-concsiously. Alot like buddhist mantras generating the deity until you can just be the deity.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
20:21 / 02.08.02
Anyone tried Toltec Tai Chi aka Tensegrity

Be back with more.
 
  

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