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Underground > Comic Books >

The Ultimates #5: Something Finally Happens

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13:41 / 18.07.02

Flux, I'm kind of with you on the "Where are the repercussions?" front, but I think Millar's just saving that til next issue. I think we will see it, at least politically, moralistically, and propertywise, although the body count is gonna stay low which is of course highly unrealistic. (As a kid watching Godzilla demolishing buildings, I always wanted to see little couches and bathtubs go flying through the wreckage.)

I'm curious what they're going to do with Bruce now? Prison? Superprison? And what threat is going to be big enough that they'll release him to fight it?

The Natural Way

13:44 / 18.07.02

Oh, the next threats? Fuck me....the Hulk was nothing. There'll be some real body count stuff before Millar's through. The sadist.

Matthew Fluxington

14:07 / 18.07.02

I was thinking about how in terms of writing about massive disaster, Morrison and Millar are total opposites. Think about how in New X-Men, the attack on Genosha was almost entirely off-panel. As soon as it happened, the focus was on the massive loss of innocent life - "no one saw it coming, they were drinking tea...making love...". Even the scenes of destruction are mostly implied and vague, the one page in which you see what is happening clearly, the focus is on the terrified and confused people. The next issue, Beast and Jean are surveying the wreckage, searching for survivors, barely able to keep it together amid the massive loss of life. Emma gives a grisely first-person account of the carnage, focusing on the sheer horror and unfairness of it all. Even though these comics came out before September 11th, I think that this is the way that events like this should best be depicted.

In Grant's writing, destroying cities has incredible consequences, it's not a joke. It's a very serious thing. In Millar's comics, this sort of tragedy is something to gawk at and go "oh, cool!". It's meant to be cheap lowbrow entertainment, it's crass and it caters to the worst parts of human nature. I think that before September 11th, this wasn't so much of a big deal cos nothing like it ever really happened - it was high drama, it was science fiction. I don't think there's any excuse now - everyone knows exactly what happens when things like this occur. To cheapen that reality is an insult to most anyone's intelligence, I think. I saw the WTC on fire, I saw it collapse. It wasn't "COOL!". I don't think seeing Giant Man fall through a building is "COOL!" either.

I think that even if the next issue has the characters talking about the ramifications of what happened, Millar will just sabotage it with his character's action movie macho posturing and 'witty' and 'darkly humorous' one-liners. Millar's work is utterly devoid of humanity, I've read enough of his work to know that. Runce is correct - the guy is a fucking sadist and I think that he exploits the worst in all of his readers, including myself.

yawn - thing's buddy

14:41 / 18.07.02

Well it’s difficult to argue with someone who’s been affected by 911 the way you have flux and you’re kind of taking a moral high ground which is impossible for an alternate view to reclaim:

But it’s you who’s being unrealistic now.

You can’t expect action comics to conform to some kind of documentary realism just because of 911. Where would we draw the line?

As for your comments regarding genosha: sure grant’s done it all off camera (just about) and added some emotional feedback in the shape of some distraught mutants and some observations on mundane activities caught in the holocaust, but how many people(mutants) died? 8million was it? More? I can’t remember, but it was several million. Now, I’m afraid Grant’s honourable attempts to express the hidden grief at such a tragedy could not be described as ‘real’. More ‘soap’ than anything else.

Several million people killed in a one-off attack would haemorrhage the global consciousness.

Look what 911 has done. How many dead? A few thousand.

As for insulting intelligence – depends on yer IQ I suppose.

Cool?

The Natural Way

14:45 / 18.07.02

Have to say, in all seriousness, that's very hard to argue w/. Millar does like to rack 'em up and knock 'em down. But do try and remember, Flux, Millar isn't a New Yorker and we have a hard time relating to what happened there. To many of us, inspite of the obligatory/predictable "outrage", 911 was, on some funny basic level, just another New York disaster movie. Now, I do think Millar should be more aware of that and attempt to balance that fucked up excitement and voyeurism w/ a little bit more horror and humanity - the contradictions (a la The Invisibles s2) could be very interesting. The juxtaposition of fun KILL! SMASH! DESTROY! w/ "Urrgh all that blood makes me want to puke!" makes for an interesting tension..... But I think you might be right, Millar probably won't go for it. As I said: Morally unkosher.

However, as a balls-to-the-wall action/fight comic the Ultimate's wins hands down. S'probably easier for me to just digest it at that level 'cause I've never had to really assimilate the idea that massive disasters ACTUALLY HAPPEN. So yeah, I don't necessarily approve, but I can't help liking the book; and I'm not sure that the reasons I dig it are 100% base and evil - I enjoy the pace, the Hollywood characterisation, the conflict, the ideas and imagination....the look of the thing. Inspite of the man's leering soul, I think he writes an entertaining book.

I'm no good at taking a stand.

Sorry! Don't hate me!

16:07 / 18.07.02

I don't think seeing Giant Man fall through a building is "COOL!" either.

I honestly thought it was cool.

The Natural Way

18:24 / 18.07.02

So did I, but Flux does have a point.

That's my thing about Millar. Everyone got excited when Fly started to (very effectively) take apart his politics, but I think all that started to muddy the issue of whether or not Millar's a good writer and whether or not his stuff reads well. I want to take a step back from whether or not his philosophies' are cool and just point out that for me, at least, Millar's books are usually fun.

Matthew Fluxington

18:51 / 18.07.02

I think Runce's view on this is very valid - that it's a lot more fun if you turn off your brain, and just think about what is happening in a way entirely disconnected from reality. I think it makes a lot of sense that people who aren't from NY, who only know the place from seeing it in books, tv shows and movies, to not think anything of a bunch of superheroes smashing the city up. To me, a person who has lived in and around NYC my entire life, very realistic drawings of places that I am used to seeing all of the time being destroyed hits a bit closer to home. I'm in Grand Central Terminal at least twice a week - Hitch drew the thing PERFECTLY. I think I'm more sensitive to this than I normally would be, cos Hitch makes it look very convincing. Looking at that panel of GCT, I couldn't help but look at thinking "I've been on all of those stairs. I walk across that room all the time. I need that place, or I can't get to the city at all."

All of that aside, I agree with Runce - Millar can be a lot of fun. I don't doubt that 90% of the people who bought Ultimates #5 loved it to bits and read it quickly and impatiently, moving from page to page anxiously to see what would happen next. That's a victory for Millar, no doubt about it. I still think he's manipulating the worst in people to make his stories compelling. I still think his politics are hopelessly fucked.

19:44 / 18.07.02

"To many of us, inspite of the obligatory/predictable "outrage", 911 was, on some funny basic level, just another New York disaster movie."

Oh...wow.

20:19 / 18.07.02

Yeah, props to Runce for saying what people are afraid to admit...

Murray Hamhandler

20:52 / 18.07.02

On the one hand, I completely understand where you're coming from, Flux, because I feel much the same way. I am in love with Morrison's approach to New X-Men, taking it away from all of the needless violence and "Us vs. Them" nonsense that is the foundation of 99% of most "action/adventure" entertainment. I like to see the consequences of violence being taken into account and I'm glad that it's being addressed by someone working w/in that framework because it corresponds to my personal worldview and it's how I personally would address the issue if I were creating something similar.

At the same time...I did think that The Ultimates knock-down drag-out fight was cool, even though I was overwhelmed w/grief for a long time after September 11th. I enjoy playing Grand Theft Auto, even though I go to pieces over something like, for instance, a bird getting hit by a car. I consume and enjoy a lot of needlessly violent entertainment, but I have very strong feelings and beliefs, about the sanctity of life and respect for others and the consequences of one's actions, that allow me to enjoy things of that nature w/o being affected negatively by them. I think that, if you are able to approach this kind of entertainment in a certain way, it can be cathartic w/o necessarily being exploitative, and you can enjoy something that is in opposition w/your worldview w/o it necessarily compromising the integrity of your feelings or beliefs.

Or it could be argued that entertainment of this nature simply contributes to widespread callousness towards the consequences of violent acts. All I know is that, in my experience, I haven't been negatively affected by said entertainment (although it must be said that I'm not exactly saturated by it). I watched G.I. Joe growing up and I think I turned out relatively alright.

yawn - thing's buddy

07:57 / 19.07.02

hmmmm.

strange avoidance of my comments.

yeah runce makes a valid point etc. agreed.

but I'm not one of the people who thought 911 was just another disaster movie. I thought and know it was real and totally fuckin horrifying but also totally fucking compelling.

I just don't think you can expect action comics to start dealing with their variables in a documentary style realism.

I think it would be extremely dull to fashion comics to fit a post 911 American mentality.

I've always thought Miller's politics were crass but then that's why he's so good at doing 'fight' comics.

As for seeing New York trashed etc. and how that can be hurtful time and time again: Whose fault is that? Holywood anyone? New Yorkers need to learn that the reason they're so upset is because it's the first time their city has been trashed in REAL life and not in a movie. Most European and Asian cities have taken a good beating several times over the last 2000 years. We know what it's like. (not me personally, you understand) It's ingrained in our cultural memory. So, as far as I'm concerned, New York joined the rest of the world last September - albeit in a tragic and spectacular fashion.

Another point: I don't want to start ww3 but weren't Bin laden and his drones inspired by Hollywood (and by extension American Comics) to carry out their attack?

I'm sorry to bang on Flux, but for you to continue to criticise Millar for manipulating people with base tactics is an utterly ludicrous statement within the context of the genre he's working with.

the funny thing is, for lovers of grant and his wonderful
philosophies:

he advocates using the enemy.

he glamourises terrorist cell networks.

and he trashed fuck out of New York in Marvel Boy with scant regard for 'realism'

but then that was a few weeks before 911 so that's okay.

The 911 cultural fallout is seriously damaging creativity and expression and I’m hoping it’ll be replaced soon.

I'll drop it now, but lets not be afraid of upsetting each other a wee bit here for fucks sake.

yawn - thing's buddy

08:00 / 19.07.02

sorry.

(for the double single post)

The Natural Way

08:07 / 19.07.02

Yeah, and that's why, in the end Morrison beats Millar hands down: the only person writing superhero comics where the goodies win "fights" by enlightening their "enemies". The Authority do the same thing, but use the good stuff as a weapon - kicking the guy's block off while he's communing w/ cosmic oneness. And, I think, there lies the difference between Morrison and Millar.

Meditate on that'n young Padawan.

Twig the Wonder Kid

09:34 / 19.07.02

>yawn:
>but I'm not one of the people who thought 911 was just another disaster movie. I thought and know it >was real and totally fuckin horrifying but also totally fucking compelling.

There is death and distaster daily across the globe (a lot of the which can be directly attributed to US foreign policy - but that's another matter). But a few thousand people dying in the 911 disaster has such a huge impact, both in the US and internationally, BECAUSE IT WAS ON TV.

It was New York City ... you know ... like in the movies.

This was the first time the violence and the tragedy of a major attrocity happened "on panel" in a popular medium.

I suppose following the arguements so far that blanket bombing of Afganistan with a tight control over what is actually shown to the folks back home is the mature and sensible way of commiting atrocities is it? While the September 11th attacks were crass and "low-brow" by being shown in full detail.

Ultimates versus New X-Men? ... sheesh.

10:54 / 19.07.02

Flux: In Grant's writing, destroying cities has incredible consequences

Yeah, like when in Marvel Boy Noh-Varr wrote FUCK YOU in fire letters across New York. %That was serious%. Oh, and he managed to avoid that anyone got killed while blowing up the streets and buildings. Oh, and that massive destruction event was commented for, like, 5 panels, tops, then never mentioned again. C'mon...

yawn - thing's buddy

10:55 / 19.07.02

whatever.

i think my main points are being lost.

I am not undermining the significance of 911.

ah fuck it.

Matthew Fluxington

11:37 / 19.07.02

Well, Marvel Boy is also probably the single worst series Morrison has ever done, whereas NXM is one of Morrison's best comics to date. I tend to pretend that Marvel Boy never happened...

The Natural Way

11:38 / 19.07.02

My post sounds funny, yawn, 'cause it wasn't supposed to come after yrs.

Twig: there's no reason why the politics of the two comics can't be compared and contrasted, esp when NXM is so overtly political (it's part of the mission statement, my lad).

The Natural Way

11:41 / 19.07.02

Oh, and I love Marvel Boy. But, Flux, I understand that yr generally big on characterisation, etc., so I can see why it might rub you up the wrong way.

yawn - thing's buddy

13:01 / 19.07.02

fair nuff if you don't like marvel boy but I think morrison himself would admit it's his template for Marvel manipulation during his tenure.

New X-men would be impossible without Marvel boy.

those six issues will in time be seen as a major influence on the shape of marvel in the 21st century and also as the moment that morrison crystalised his vision for contemporary storytelling.

It's also the first series since Zenith with consistently great art complimenting the script.

in fact the excellence seems overlooked.

its amazing.

The Natural Way

13:20 / 19.07.02

ROT:

I know - I brought the trade recently. I forgot how hard the whole thing rocks. Superdense, brimming w/ alien ideas, very funny....and very sick.

"Love....Love is like a fist sometimes..."

Any series whose opening sequence begins with the words "6 billion realities and counting!" and ends w/ the future battlecry "ONE REALITY!" gets my vote.

And that 'Dawn One' bodhisattva (or however you spell it) sequence at the beginning of 6....mmmm....

"The Kree Way is supreme; I vow to complete it!"

Word.

yawn - thing's buddy

14:04 / 19.07.02

GUANO:

yeah the six billion realities thing:

sampled from Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and sandra dickenson plotting the route through the universe with their probability drive.

sampled, or maybe copied cos it's exactly the same.

14:40 / 19.07.02

... and that`s all that morrison ever does, anyway...

yawn - thing's buddy

14:46 / 19.07.02

I know.

cheatin cunt.

15:46 / 19.07.02

Talent borrows: genius steals.

13:02 / 20.07.02

surely if any city can get a fictional kicking without us needing to worry like teachers about the moral consequences, it's the biggest and richest and most familiar one? i thought new yorkers were meant to be tough. i loved the bit in the memorial spidey comic where galactus crosses a whole galaxy just to stand in central park and shed a tear as big as a bath amid the senseless destruction. millar's tendency to kick the head off enlightened corpses is just his way of turning the triumphant epiphany ! back into real work ? why are his politics so dodgy again? with regard to one of my earlier posts, i didn't mean like, real realism. as if anyone would kill innocent people just to justify their big military contracts!

13:08 / 20.07.02

"It's also the first series since Zenith with consistently great art complimenting the script." - Yawn.

Flex Mentallo?

yawn - thing's buddy

13:58 / 21.07.02

forgot.

19:18 / 21.07.02

This [issue 5] was never intended as our ULTIMATE BATTLE because that's the story ending our first year. This was more Superman Saving Lois From The Helicopter Crash than Superman Diverting Nuclear Missiles From California. In other words, this is our middle act.

Mr Mark Millar himself.

The word is that the ultimate universe could be heading for a secret war... minus The Beyonder.

The Natural Way

07:59 / 25.07.02

Re Flux getting all upset about consequence free New York trashing.

Shut it. In a nice way w/ love.

The Natural Way

08:17 / 25.07.02

Millar (from Newsarama interview):

“Issue #5, for example, has several buildings coming down. In the past, people would dust themselves down and go back to work later that afternoon. Seeing how the world reacted to just two buildings tumbling has really made me change the way I approach these kinds of books. Not in a bad way. I just can't help thinking of the human consequences.

“Issue #6 has the consequences and, God, issue #7 even has the consequences as the whole thing kicks off with a memorial mass in New York for the eighty people or so who died in the Hulk attack. People stop working and stand outside Saint Patrick's Cathedral with candles as Cap reads a passage from the Bible and all their little pictures are pinned up outside.

“We can't help but be affected by this now. It's ingrained too deeply in the human psyche for it not to affect us. However, seeing the human cost also makes the heroism intrinsic to these kinds of stories all the more exciting. The Ultimates, after all, save the world at the end of issue #12. This is something we've seen a million times in comics, but I think we've forgotten what it means. Imagine if we all thought we were going to die and some people actually saved us. It'd be the biggest party in the world. That's the kind of take I want for this book; all the stuff we've always taken for granted, but seeing it as the beautiful little idea it was when we first heard about it.”

The Natural Way

14:50 / 25.07.02

Now, if only he wouldn't chuck in the nice, homophobic pricktalk. I'm getting grouchy w/ bright, cheeky liberals like Millar trying to look all "I just don't give a fuck!"

Regrettable Juvenilia

18:44 / 25.07.02

From the interview:

[A]s someone pointed out, The Ultimates is almost the antithesis of The Authority.

As a dripping-wet liberal, it's often tempting to write a scene where Cap tells Bush to f**k off and they strike up their own independent team, but I've got to constantly push myself as a writer and realize that's an Authority story and the Ultimates are agents of the status-quo. Writing a cast made up of such diverse political viewpoints is actually more interesting than The Authority.

Cap, for example, is undoubtedly a Republican. What my job is as a writer is to make him a Republican without making him as asshole. I have to think about what's good about this ideology. Make no mistake: Cap would vote for the Grand Old Party, people. Bill Jemas revolutionized our plotting session two years ago when he walked into the room and pointed out to Bendis and me that over 90% of the military voted Republican. Cap's personality just crystallized for me after that.

See, I find this fascinating... As I've said elsewhere, one of the big problems with his run on The Authority was that Millar thinks he's a radical/progressive/liberal and was thus writing a radical/progressive/liberal comic, but his instincts have always seemed to run the other way (aside from the content of his Authority, see the transphobic/homophobic comments Runce highlights in the interview). The Ultimates, which is openly about beautiful fascists fighting to preserve the status quo, and the relationships between them (you know, a bit like The West Wing), seems to work a lot better - it feels more natural, less forced, and the dialogue is Millar's least clunky to date. (Not that I'm buying it - waiting for the trade...)

Also good to see him give the necessary credit to Bryan Hitch. Funny how Millar is basically only any cop when accompanied by a really, really talented artist.

Ultimates = definitely a very guilty, ethical dubiosu pleasure. Almost transgressive for some 'lithers... fetishize the security forces! Mmmm.

18:55 / 25.07.02

Maybe this comment should be in the Millarworld thread, but Millar reminds me of Warren Ellis in one respect: He comes up with interesting ideas and sells them very well, but doesn't have the talent to execute them. I remember what he said he was going to do with The Authority, talking about' superheroes in the real world', but then created what was essentially a superhero team-book with added 'topicality' to go with the T and A. Not even Watchmen Lite.
And The Ultimates is Millar Lite. Ugh.

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