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03:13 / 02.05.02

I don't. But that's just me. The conversation's already home to rampant fluff and abuse. I don't think we need a little sanctioned ghetto when bastards can avoid being pushed down the stairs in a bag.

Flux: are you kidding? No art, no communication, no transmission of ideas? You can say games are toothpaste (and in the end, they are), but you sell short all the work that creates them. And, of course, when there's parity between the grosses of the gaming industry and film, with much less spent on gaming, they'll definitely make up a more significant portion of the spectacle than perhaps anything outside TV. Logically, it must be included. Emotively, of course, it still smells of milk.

And haven't most propositions included sport among other things?

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:56 / 02.05.02

I would say that any new forum suggestion receiving more than a handful of support be earmarked for introduction to the board.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I propose "The Bandwidth", in which massive multimedia files are uploaded and downloaded directly from the Barbelith servers.

10:32 / 02.05.02

Isn't it simpler to leave things as they stand? With Zoom's current RPG blitz, its kinda shown that the current version of Barb can accomodate the topic adequately.

As for a roving forum: will that add anything that what we have at the moment? The Conversation can provide seriousness if required: just look at the abortion thread.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:45 / 02.05.02

Certainly I think that, without prejudice, viewers may wish to examine a) the number and b) the quality of the responses to those gaming threads before coming to a conclusion about the usefulness of an RPG area. Self-entertainment in general (presumably including sports, martial arts, yoga and at a pinch sex) might be another way to look at it - a kind of Fun! area...

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

12:52 / 02.05.02

see, thats what i was trying to get at with The Playground, not just vid-space and basement-space recreation, but meat-space also.
The gaming thing just got all the attention.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

12:53 / 02.05.02

:::shudder::: i just agreed with haus
call me a +2/+2 mace of near disgust

13:16 / 02.05.02

"This surely is a geek-friendly environment, but it isn't exactly the main thrust of the community, right?"

flux, by this and other statements in this thread youve shown that you have no point other than to be blatantly insulting. I dont think you would be so smug were someone speaking this way about music, comics, magick, or any of the other existing forums

although I have zero personal interest in a gaming forum, there are an awful lot of posters who engage in it. I think its up to tom and/or cal if they want to do it, but certainly there is a demand for it, and I think its a forum which would be used, no less responsibly than any other one

Matthew Fluxington

13:23 / 02.05.02

I wouldn't be so crushed if the comics, music etc forums were taken away, because I know that there are other places online to discuss such things. I can think of a lot of music forums in particular that I am a member of that cater to me a bit better than Barbelith's music forum does, I'm sure that the same can be said of gaming forums for our merry band of lobbyists.

Still, I stand by what you quoted, though I'm not sure what it has to do with yr critique of my posts - I'm saying that in spite of the fact that Barbelith is very geek-friendly, it is not a site ABOUT being a geek, so I think it's maybe a bit off to start suggesting adding forums because the current set-up isn't meeting all of someone's geek needs. I guess we could maybe lobby for a stamp collecting forum next, right?

14:05 / 02.05.02

Originally by flux: it is not a site ABOUT being a geek

current set-up isn't meeting all of someone's geek needs

Gaming, be it video, rpg, sport, is also not about being a geek.
Hence the gaming (or fun, or playground) forum would not be catering to geek needs.

I guess we could maybe lobby for a stamp collecting forum next, right?

'Cause that's just as open-ended as "gaming" right?

Flux, you're coming across as really prejudicial here.

Zoom.

14:55 / 02.05.02

I think what people like or don't like isn't the issue here at all. Its the amount of interest in it to generate useful conversation. If there are only 5 people here interested in Gaming, then there's no need for a gaming forum. If people want to debate the ledgitimaticy of gaming, I'll note that that is an appropriate topic for a gaming forum. Really, a vote is the only way to show if there is enough interest for it to be viable. We've established here that a vote may be called to decide it, that's enough. The theory and argument about gaming would be better served in another more appropriate forum at this point, I'd think. Zoom has already started up a number of them.

15:05 / 02.05.02

This is beginning to remind me of the life of brian where stan feels oppressed when Reg tells him that he can't have babies...

15:14 / 02.05.02

yes, there are other forums and boards on the internet, but this thread isnt about going elsewhere, its about adapting barbelith. not a terribly difficult concept, is it? and some posters do come here with preferences for one forum or another - many valuable posters rarely venture out of those forums into others. I guess thats a good old "well, screw them" from you as well, eh? lets give that attitude to everyone here and we'll have a thriving community!

and before you or anyone else says it: if you dont want me to get insulting, please dont refer to people who brought up a legitimate suggestion as "our merry band of lobbyists".

as for the rest of your crap post, Ill have to say that repeatedly referring to a group of people as "geeks" and telling them such things as "go somewhere else" (essentially, "you arent wanted") really doesnt make me (and hopefully not anyone else with an iota of sense) see your points as anything other than hostile and possibly even personally motivated

again, the choice is solely up to tom (and/or cal), nor do I personally care if there is or isnt a gaming forum (although I think with this much demand its a good idea, theres my vote, if we ARE voting)

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:46 / 02.05.02

as for the rest of your crap post

Anytime anyone wants to serve a whole trayful of grown-up juice to some of the recent posts in this thread, just feel free. Really. On the house.

Meanwhile, what is the system for voting, if this is what we propose? Simple majority? A required minimum? A defined majority, numerically or proportionally? Open or secret ballot? Shoudl we also vote on "Body!" or "Sex!" or "Pirates!" areas at the same time? Is it first past the post, or could all of them be set up?

15:59 / 02.05.02

Im not having any of your nonsense, haus. play with someone else please

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:08 / 02.05.02

So, no grownup juice for table 5. Quelle Surprise

Any thoughts on the voting system?

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:13 / 02.05.02

And would you say that 4 replies is an accurate depiction of the character of a thread and all that it can be?

I think that if those 4 posts are the entirety of the thread, then yes.

But Zoom has been hamstrung rather by having to think of topics *around* gaming rather than *about* gaming. If we were looking for a better indication, then posts about gaming in the Conversation or indeed this very thread may be a better indicator.

16:20 / 02.05.02

It seems to be the right way to go about adding forums.

But, remember, the Art forum is the child of a simple question by a relative neophyte: "Um, why don't we have an art forum?" A question asked 'cause there was nowhere other than the conversation to talk about it... And one that got around 10 vocal posters' support.

18:06 / 02.05.02

...looking at this whole thread here and seeing that most of the ideas brought have only some bite and alot of lashing and thread rot. Honestly speaking, a gaming thread wouldn't get too out of hand cuz I wouldn't bother doing anything more than linking to gaming topics at other places if it were to be a cheat, walkthrough, or anything of little discussion importance. And that's just one area of it..not to mention the whole sporting, activity, framework discussion that'll be involved.

Most threads form from the references they point to at other places. That's what the internet is about isn't it. Not just here...though some of us prefer it. Other places discuss certain topics better than at Barbelith anyway. But what I like is the reference or calling up topics...like an online newspaper we edit. If not for here, I might not be aware of certain things...

18:10 / 02.05.02

...and not to ignore the other topics brought up...

Health does interest me in passing as well as the reference forum...could see reference as also a sort of card catalogue to the whole of currently existing Barbelith info in other threads if it already exists. I see a sex forum being a nightmare when a troll or two decide to talk about a member as shag-worthy or in what way. The logistics may be a bit much. Hmmm...need more coffee, will review other topics in a bit...

20:08 / 02.05.02

Um. OK.

First of all, I don’t think anyone who is raising objections to the RPG forum, with the possible exception of flux (mainly because he is equating RPG immediately with geekery) necessarily looks down on the idea, or on gamers. I do think it’s interesting that so many pro-RPG forum folks seem to be taking it as a personal offense that not everyone wants this forum.

Lets put this in perspective for a moment: if someone raised the idea of say, a "raising children" or "gardening" forum, and people objected, would it be meant as a personal insult to all those who were interested in exploring such things? Je pense que non.

As far as weighing whether or not an RPG forum is something content-wise people want for Barbelith’s future, well what’s wrong with that? Maybe computers and RPG isn’t what we want as part of the site’s content in the future. And maybe it is.

But I recommend attempting truly weighing the pros and cons of the issue first.

Murray Hamhandler

20:12 / 02.05.02

I wouldn't be opposed to a Gaming forum, although I have little personal interest in it myself. That is, if there are enough people who honestly feel the need for a separate forum to make it a worthwhile endeavor. Another option might be to go through the old posts in the current forums and see if there is something slightly off-topic that is brought up time and time again. I can't think of anything at the moment, but being "on-topic" really is an awfully loose state here.
Arthur Sudnam, II

21:45 / 02.05.02

Ahem. I thought the whole idea of the proposed Gaming forum was to take on board matters such as sport, RPG, console, PC, board games, strategy games, etc... as in, the whole length an breadth of the subject. Yeah, I can't see myself as a frequent poster in the forum, but it's a vast arena, with limitless potential for really great discussion. I say again: the quality of what goes on there depends on the quality of the moderators and the amount of time and effort they put into making decent threads for people to discuss - they'll have a lot of responsibility in shaping the direction that the forum takes. There have been a lot of people attracted to the Magick forum from outside Barbelith who have come here for no reason other than that it's a great place to discuss Magick. They've got into the rest of the site through the quality of that forum alone. It's at least possible that something similar could happen here.

I say don't put it to a vote. I say trial it and see what happens. If it doesn't work we can scrap it, learn from it and move on.

02:28 / 03.05.02

So I was thinking. Recall a few months back everyone was posting their grades and qualifications and whatnot. And some inspired suit, or perhaps it was Tom, suggested we use the thread as a repository of knowledge to share amongst the collective. What about a forum for that? Got a problem that you think one of the rest of us may have an angle on? Can't figure out what that noise in your car is? Programming question? It might sort of serve the same function as the old "Help" forum tangentially did, but the new "Policy and Help" seems to be strictly board related. In this proposed forum, Health questions could be posed, mechanical, programming, technical aspects of writing, publishing. Put it down in Participation, call it the Repository or something and see what happens. The number of experts in various fields we've got here, we really ought to be able to put together some good comprehensive instruction manuals. If that makes any sense to anyone.

Zoom.

Murray Hamhandler

02:33 / 03.05.02

That...really is a fantastic idea, Zoom. And so simple that I can't believe it hasn't been thought of before. Unless, of course, it has and I was absent that day. At any rate, that's a forum (or whatever form something like that would take) that I can definitely get behind. Not that I necessarily have any specialized knowledge to add per se...
Arthur Sudnam

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:41 / 03.05.02

The research forum does seem to be getting alot of support, although it might be a bit cluttered and chaotic...

SEX forum has been suggested before - what I didn't previously think is that it could be a subsection of the FUN! forum - could possibly break down into:

RPGs
Computer Games
Sports
Fitness
Cookery and Food
Self-development (T'ai Chi, Yoga, Non-competition Martial Arts?, non-magical meditation?)
Sex (although between the Head Shop and Research we would pretty much have this covered, apart from "Do you like sex? I like sex! Can I sex you?" threads which rightly belong in the Conversation)

The main question, I feel, is whether the Conversation, the Magick, the Switchboard, the Laboratory and the Magick already cover all or most of these needs, and also whether it would be seen as useful to archive these threads permanently, or churn them like the Conversation....

Matthew Fluxington

11:10 / 03.05.02

Isn't the Conversation already the "Fun" forum?

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:18 / 03.05.02

Not rrreally....it's more the "ephemera" forum. You could take out all the elements above and there would still be topics in the Conversation.

11:37 / 03.05.02

Here's my thought on the proposed research forum. Once a topic dies, the moderators could go back, edit it up and we could post it in a locked thread as sort of a Barbelith reference book, a la The Bomb. Before this locked thread was posted there could be one last look, bump the thread, see if there's anything else added, and if not, BAM, BArbelith Textbooks.

I've kind of given up on the "Fun" thread being accepted, but I think this one would be extremely useful to everyone.

Zoom.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

11:47 / 03.05.02

exactly (once again agreeing with haus, on my way to the doctor...)
if i were to post something about, oh a high level AD&D quest in the convo, how many replies would be
Wank
Fanboy
Fat-beard
etc.
Thats why a place where less people frequent, but more people generally interested in the topic would gather.
It's not like i walk into the magic and say --"ha ha, you guys are so lame woth your stonhenge and sky-clad crap"

14:20 / 03.05.02

Throwing my two cents in here: I think that Zoom hit it on the head when he said that (and I'm paraphrasing) Barbelith is not a forum about a set of interests, be they comics, politics, sex, or French cuisine, but rather a forum geared around a certain style or discussion, that, for better or worse, I'd describe as of a higher level (more "intellectual" (cue sound of dying angel)) than the "geek" forums Flux and others would have the gamer contingent fuck off to.

Arguments that a gamer forum would turn fanboy-ish are specious, as obviously the comic book, music, and film forums haven't degenerated into geeks arguing over minutiae. Why are gamers seen as less likely to curb their geekery than all you comic book reading retards out there?

Additionally, while I haven't done more than skim Zoom's "spamming" of the Underground with RPG threads, two things are immediately apparent to me from this exercise: (1) Gamers can keep up a Barbelith standard level of discussion, as if there was any doubt about that (and this really is an argument about standards, however one wishes to disguise it) (2) forum moderators of the existing fora have no idea what to do about these threads, how to moderate them, etc.

So, in order to give the moderators a break, start a new freakin' forum. Call it Games, call it Fun, whatever. I think the list Haus provided of possible topic of discussion for a Fun forum is a great start (though I have to admit, saying that sex is adequately covered by the HeadShop and Laboratory makes me just as queasy as those "penis in ear" type posts).

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:30 / 03.05.02

Dilletantism - no, by the Head shop and the proposed "research/help" forum, for "it hurts when I pee/good de Sade books/factual inquiry" threads, and also by the conversation. If we're not having the Research forum, then there is a stronger argument for a Sex subforum in "the Playground"...

Matthew Fluxington

14:38 / 03.05.02

forum moderators of the existing fora have no idea what to do about these threads, how to moderate them, etc.

Well, surely you must be referring to the only instance in which the gaming topic was introduced in a way that had nothing to do with forum, ie the post in the TV/Film/Theatre forum. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure everyone knew what to do with the gamer threads in the forums - ignore them, along with the other 930+ registered Barbelith members who have no interest in posting about gaming. Moderation in most of the forums here seems to have a lot more to do with being a custodian (ie accepting and declining permission to alter/delete posts) than imposing any sense of order within the forum.

15:03 / 03.05.02

You know, a general "fun and games" forum sounds like a fantastic idea. It would be good catchall for a lot of things that currently don't have a home. I think that would be a lot better than a strictly gaming related forum, as it would include pretty much anything else not already covered in The Spectacle while dodging any labels that people might feel are exclusive. I think the type of discussion I'd like to see out of gaming is better suited under Books anyway, where it seems to be worknig so far.

The Research is interesting, but don't we cover that between the Lab and Creation already?

A general Help forum does sound really useful, too. It would let us tap our resources in more general ways. Quite possibly, of all the ideas I've seen so far, that one may well be the most beleficial forum to barbelith as a whole.

21:46 / 03.05.02

An archive forum, as discussed here, is something I want to put forward.

Read only repository of threads of merit. Merit decided either by moderators or by open vote of board.

23:36 / 03.05.02

Arguments that a gamer forum would turn fanboy-ish are specious, as obviously the comic book, music, and film forums haven't degenerated into geeks arguing over minutiae.

I just want to say at this point that when the board was more heavily weighted in numbers towards the fora currently located in the Revolution, there were very very many less list-threads and the like. In my opinion the number and popularity of the Spectacle fora have debatable value - they clearly have helped the board survive, they also clearly have a lot of really good posts on them and some high quality debate. But they've also encouraged people to post about trivia.

I'm all in favour of conversation as well as debate, and I think there's a lot of material to be considered here. But my personal opinion (which I'm more than prepared to allow to be over-ruled) is that there's enough going on in the Spectacle as it is. I love all of betty's comments in this and other threads about game theory and I too would be REALLY interested in talking about them. I'd also be SERIOUSLY interested in discussing virtual economies and political structures in online gaming environments. And I would, to an extent not be aversed to talking about Mac gaming in general. But people have to accep tthat there is a real danger in getting a forum that's filled comprehensively with the trivia of the gaming world rather than the philosophy of it...

But again - this isn't the point.... The point is that we can make a decision at a more general level...

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