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Why are you a vegetarian? Or why not ?

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16:59 / 20.04.02

Sorry if I put anyone off their tea. When I said 'revulsion at corpse eating' I wasn't on a do you realise what you're eating? kick, just trying to explain why it's easy for me to be veggie. I just don't fancy it. I have a lot of respect for people who are veggie and do like meat. And hell, respect for people who do eat it - you make your own choices.

Cherry, I'd say - try it out if you think you want to/should be veggie, but be prepared for a few hassles, in terms of struggling to find nice food when travelling and also in having to justify what you're not eating to complete strangers.

18:09 / 20.04.02

I've been veggie for about 10 years now, mostly as a protest against the cruelty apparent in so much factory farming. But I'm a pretty unusual veggie in that I don't think it is wrong to eat meat and I'd be ok eating "free range", though that can be misleading sometimes. I just find it easier to be veggie all the time.

I tend to eat well - lots of fresh vegetables and meals from scratch. I try to keep convenience food to a minimum. But I haven't lost weight at all, I think that is a myth.

Actually - and this is a gross generalisation - some of these myths have some basis in truth. A lot of veggies, unlike me, didn't really like meat in the first place and only later place an ethical slant on their lifestyle. In fact, with some veggies, I wonder if they like food at all given the way they eat.

I rarely try to justify my vegetarianism beyond the "cruelty to animals" remark and I usually find that if I don't push it people don't get upset. Then again, maybe its because they interpret my reticence as barely constrained anger. hehe. I look so unlike the wimpy veggie that most people seem to expect.

The only way that I promote vegetarianism is by convincing people that it can taste good. This seems to come as a shock to many.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

19:58 / 20.04.02

See, though, taste isn't really an issue for me or my friends. I know non-meat products can taste good. I always had well balanced meals growing up, and I've come to like raw or steamed vegetables. But I can't find the ethical, nutritional or political reasons that make me want to stop eating meat. And meat tastes pretty good.

21:42 / 20.04.02

I'm considering becoming a part-time vegetarian. I'm thinking of taking a day out of each week to eat no meat to remind myself that it really does come from living creatures that can hurt and suffer just like the rest of us.

I do wish the animals were treated more humanely, and I'll probably consider giving activist groups that work to this end some support.

21:43 / 20.04.02

I eat meat - but not much. To be honest, I don't really give much of a fuck about animals. My reaction to seeing factory farms is revulsion, and if you asked me to sign a petition against them I would... but honestly, I don't care all that much.

there's three reasons why I don't eat much meat though:

1. Meat's bloody expensive and goes off quickly so is annoying to store. You can get a wide range of nice veg for the same price, even in the supermarket.

2. I don't think that our evolved diet includes much meat. The odd animal that we could catch, but mostly fruit, veg, you know, the hunter-gatherer thing. (Neither does it include large quantities of processed grain products, of course.) Keeping to a diet for which we have evolved seems to me a good idea, at least that's my current theory.

3. The health issues concerning meat these days are ridiculous. Bacteria causing food poisoning are rife in factory farms, you have to burn things to a crisp to make them safe. The animals are pumped full of antibiotics. US cattle are pumped full of provenly carcinogenic growth hormones, and depending on trade negotiations ours might soon be too. I eat more and more fish, partly because I like it, also because it's not so intensively farmed and is quite healthy in general (high protein, lots of good oils) - but what with salmon being GM and intensively farmed now, it can only be a matter of time before it's as much of a health risk as chicken.

I don't know any ethical veggies. My dad is veggie, but that's because of the health risks mentioned above, he has nothing specifically against meat. All the other veggies I know just don't like meat, which is fair enough. I don't like cauliflower - I wouldn't expect to be given any shit for that.

I never used to eat meat that looked like meat as a child, I was quite squeamish. Now, though, I'm a disgusting savage, and I'll smash open lobsters, gnaw bones, eat reindeer, haggis, liver... not as yet had any sheep's eyeballs, though.

23:23 / 20.04.02

As a neonate Buddhist, I've been wrestling with the moral implications of eating meat a lot lately. Lately the way that I've been approaching it is very much like my Cherokee ancestors did, which is to imbibe the meat as a sacred gift from nature. But I can't help but still see that as ethically fudging things. This thread is helping me sort things out a lot. Thanks, guys.

14:52 / 21.04.02

a girl once told me that if you can kill an animal and eat it afterwards you have every right to eat it. i thought about it and found out that i could kill some lifeforms (plants, mussels) but no way would i want to kill a rabbit or a cow or chicken or fish.. so i stopped eating those. I remember as a kid i was fishing and got a sprout and killed it but I couldn´t eat it, because it was so rotten, dead and sad. my uncle ate it some time later. I eat what I could kill.

i eat the milk stuff and eggs, though, not always making sure if that stuff comes from people who care about the conditions their cattle or birds live in. animal rights is important to me, consumers can control what they buy and if companies use animals they can treat them respectfully and if they do so it´s okay with me. people who kill and eat animals and are fully aware of what it means are okay with me. vote with you dollar.

16:59 / 21.04.02

of course the logical progression of the- only eat what you copuld comfortably kill argument is to apply it to humans...

wembley can change in 28 days

17:05 / 21.04.02

[threadrot] Personally, I think that would be brilliant. If you're daft enough to kill someone, you should be prepared to eat them. Can you say, "no evidence?" This would also prevent the US military from having to spend money sending over rations to their troops. [/threadrot]

17:40 / 21.04.02

Actually, I think that's true. If you're prepared to eat meat, then why not human flesh as well? What's the difference between eating animal meat and human meat? Apart from one's attitude towards it?

19:42 / 21.04.02

The attitude is the whole thing. If you try to say that eating animals is "natural", you could probably make a case for cannibalism being "natural" too. Although there's a fairly strong social contract motive against living in a society where people are allowed to kill and eat people, it's not really that much different to not allowing murder generally, regardless of what you do with the corpse.

19:55 / 21.04.02

I used to be very carnivorous. Then, one day, I got served steak and didn't find it all that appealing.

Since I have a history of heart disease in my family, I decided to seize the moment and stop eating red meat while my interest was at a low point.

I still eat fish, and even though I claim to be avoiding eating birds, I eat them fairly often when the vegetarian alternatives aren't present or aren't especially appealing. But I love eating at places that place emphasis on vegetarian food, like Indian restaurants.

01:15 / 22.04.02

Hmm. This thread is really making me think I should give it a try (and hey neato! I got moved from the conversation to the head shop!)

The trend in irradiating meat to kill bacteria is what really got me to thinkin, actually. I mean, it just doesn't seem too appealing to be eating something that had to be irradiated. Blech. And then there's the question I think of a spiritual connection, actually, of eating something that is processed, etc.

But hey - I am a big junk food lover - I am well aware that my diet is terrible. I'm really looking at it right now because I want to make changes and be more healthful. Now that I'm 29 I'd like to have made some healthy choices for the better by the time I turn 30.

As far as hostility towards veggies go, yeah I've seen it. Two of my friends who are vegetarians got married a few years ago, and when they did BOTH of their parents made cracks all the time about them both being vegetarians. I thought it was a little odd that they were so hostile about it. I think some non-veggies either maybe do have guilt about eating meat, or are insecure about veggies "judging" them for being meat-eaters. Dunno. Just my theory.

08:40 / 22.04.02

Tell a veggie that those cute little animals are still gonna get slaughtered whether they eat them or not, and they'll reply back with some "that's the kind of mentality that starts wars" trife.

Fact is, those animals are already dead, and they sure taste a lot better than pasta and carrots.

09:47 / 22.04.02

"Actually, I think that's true. If you're prepared to eat meat, then why not human flesh as well? What's the difference between eating animal meat and human meat? Apart from one's attitude towards it?"

-Wyrd

Would that suppose that there is no heiarchy of animals? Personally, I wouldn't eat a dolphin or an ape or a human, but would have no problem with say, a dog.

wembley can change in 28 days

14:21 / 22.04.02

Rage, at the risk of sounding like I don't have a sense of humour, try this link, or if you'd rather have a visual component, click here.

It's not the fact that cute little animals die, it's the manner in which they are killed, and even more importantly, the conditions under which they're forced to live. I'm not vegetarian because I'm sentimental or fashionable - I'm worried about the real cost of meat; as in what it's costing the environment (deforestation, waste in the water, wasted energy and land, farm runoff including chemicals and animal poop) and the toll it takes on health. Eating meat itself is not the big issue - I actually had a fantastic caribou stew last year - but if you're going to chow down at McDonalds, you should really be able and willing to condone each and every step of the process. Your post simply displayed your lack of understanding in this topic.

wembley can change in 28 days

14:39 / 22.04.02

This topic has brought out the veggie Nazi in me; I'm not usually so evangelical. It's just when people don't know what they're talking about and proceed to make fun of the lifestyle that I get really irked.

Anyway, for great environmental info and generally everything else on why to go veggie, check out meatstinks.com. I believe it's run by PETA (and it's their job to be evangelical), so there's some info that may seem a bit hard to swallow. Check it out, though, it's an excellent site.

“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.”
—Albert Einstein

14:48 / 22.04.02

wembley - we then get back to the question of what conditions/manner of death would you be personally comfortable with?

15:17 / 22.04.02

rage - i don't think for a minute that me not eating meat or fish is going to save one animal life. it's about not wanting to be part of that process, not some fluffy fantasy about skipping off into the sunset with all the little lambs you saved by not having that sunday roast.

and veggie food is about rather more than pasta and carrots. you can be as healthy or as unhealthy as you like, and there's loads of stuff you can choose from.

cherry - give it a go!

wembley can change in 28 days

15:29 / 22.04.02

Well, since you're asking:
Ideal) No killing. No meat farms. No fish farms. No bringing animals into this world simply to put them in a cage, feed them, then kill and eat them. Lots of happy soy plants. Soma.
Possibility) Eating meat is a cultural institution all over the world; I'm perfectly aware of that. I'm also aware that Welsh lamb can be really tasty. So if we are to keep eating meat, I'd vote for humane, organic farming, where the animals can exist in an environment that is as close as possible to their natural one, where they aren't fed hormones, and where they're basically treated with some respect. This kind of farming is hugely expensive (involves more people for fewer animals, more land for fewer animals, animals not growing to the size of a trojan horse, etc), but I think that's fine. Meat should be expensive. It should be a luxury. Back in the day when the blokes all went out to hunt for Sunday dinner, you can bet they weren't eating steak every day. I personally don't know how animals are killed on organic farms, but I'll bet it's a lot more humane than the more conventional practice. As for fish, if I feel mean enough to catch them myself in the wild, I'm okay with that, but that's because I like eating fish.

The evolution to such a practice will never happen in my lifetime (well, I shouldn't say never, but unless other radical changes take place, it won't). It would mean your average kebab would cost upwards of $20 and CEOs of fast-food institutions would grow fangs and start herding cattle underground. In the meantime, buy it at a health food store or from a local market, where you know where it's coming from.

Funny how more and more America is reminding me of the Roman Empire. Excessive eating habits (entire aisles of Kroger's devoted to potato chips!) with no look ahead to the consequences. Soon, vomitoriums. Then a new Empire! I'm hoping it's Australia. That would be fun.

17:18 / 22.04.02

Wembley said: Funny how more and more America is reminding me of the Roman Empire. Excessive eating habits (entire aisles of Kroger's devoted to potato chips!) with no look ahead to the consequences.

I must say I agree with this. There’s so MUCH food – and so much BAD food here. And hey, don’t get me wrong – I love a LOT of that shit. But I think the proliferation of junk/processed food in America and the fact that over 70% of Americans overweight (self included) is absolutely connected. And you have to wonder, I mean besides weight, what is all that processed shit doing to you? That’s what I’ve been wondering.

I don’t think I could give up fish, though. At least not at this stage. I really, really love fish and I can’t imagine never eating salmon or tuna again. Plus fish can be so good for you! Is that a contradiction in terms? I know there are such things as "beady-eyed vegetarians" but I don’t want to be working on my own double standard.

Just thinking about it.

wembley can change in 28 days

18:11 / 22.04.02

Plus fish can be so good for you! Is that a contradiction in terms?

Speaking as someone who can't give up sushi, I have to smile and nod. I do feel bad about eating fish, though: a) world fisheries are in decline, so fish farming is the better alternative but b) fish farming seems a bit dodgy to me, plus the conditions at fish farms are questionable. The other thing about fish is that they're particularly prone to bioaccumulation, which means (if you need a refresher) that toxins they ingest tend to stay in their system, and get passed on to the next thing that ingests them.

Having said that, I think I'll go out for some Toro sushi tonight...

19:15 / 22.04.02

Not sure if 'vegetarian' exactly fits what you are, wembley. Far be it from me to deny anyone the right to identify one way or another... but fish and caribou are not vegetable based, last time I checked. Perhaps ethical omnivore would be a better term, or an ideal which more fits your mode of existence?

I personally am definitely going to become a vegan again, as of now. I will really miss feta, seeing as I just found a vegetarian variety... but other than that...

wembley can change in 28 days

20:18 / 22.04.02

Very true: according to the Toronto Vegetarian Society, I don't count, and they're totally right. It's only in the last year or so that I've started eating fish again (needed more protein and my student budget allowed me to live on cans of tuna and macintosh apples), and I do plan to curtail that habit. As for the caribou, I can only say that it was a once-in-a-lifetime dinner cooked for me and many others as part of a celebration, and in those cases I kind of view meat like bungee jumping - something you gotta do once. Rothkoid can attest to the excellence of the meal, although he's a carnivore so you might want to take his acclaim with a grain of sea salt.

I quite like the term "ethical omnivore," although I do identify more with vegetarian. But actually, this thread has me really thinking about going vegan. I'm just not sure if a) I can afford it, and b) if I'll get enough protein. I've never gone vegan before. Has anyone here ever done it? And kept their haemoglobin count normal?

20:21 / 22.04.02

I was a vegan for four years. The dr. was gobsmacked at the level of iron in my blood - she thought I must live on green leafy vegetables to keep myself so un-anaemic. Nuts, mushrooms, all sorts of weird things are high in protein - and veganism is not expensive, if you like rice and pasta and fruit and veg. and you can cook a bit to perk things up...

20:24 / 22.04.02

Oh yes, textured vegetable protein is practically pure protein, and v. cheap - makes nice burgers and stuff...

20:27 / 22.04.02

Btw, the term 'ethical omnivore' is copyright me unless someone else can prove different

wembley can change in 28 days

21:27 / 22.04.02

LOL! I'll give you the copyright if you send along a good TVP recipe - I can't stand the stuff personally. I never eat pasta anymore and rice very infrequently (and those are the cheapies in the supermarket - I had to lose weight and so took away most carbs from my diet), and some weeks I just don't have $5 to shell out on veggie burgers. I'm addicted to Yves Veggie products (vegetarian bologna? Looks and feels like the original - and even tastes vaguely of that grade three lunchbox? Woo!). I do eat a lot of nuts, green leafies, fruit, and veg, and after years of Crap Student Meals I'm actually beginning to be a whiz at the stovetop. But TVP, man. How to make that stuff taste good has eluded me forever.

And Cherry, don't let my inability to shut up put you off trying out the veggie lifestyle. Go for it! Remember, it only takes 21 days to make something a habit, and 6 months to make it a lifestyle.

03:29 / 23.04.02

Protein's real easy to come by; and you can spend the whole day collecting those amino acids. Rice and beans, corn meal and beans, nuts, seeds, tofu, whole wheat, yeast... My diet varies with my income, but I was a mostly raw vegan for a couple years, and even today spend 5 out of seven days that way.

Anyone thinking of changing their diet out to ease into it. Eschewing meat even for one day a week makes an environmental impact. What drove me nuts when I first when off animal foods was a nagging fat craving that led to puddles of oil.

A

03:31 / 23.04.02

I've been vegetarian for about 5 years, and "vegan" (i don't like that term much, so i don't really use it) for about two years.

The basic reason for my decision is that there is absolutely no need for me to eat any animal products. Perhaps the animal cruelty could be somehow justified if we actually NEEDED to eat animals, or stuff that comes out of their bodies, but we don't.

I'm aware that my decision not to eat animal products makes only the smallest difference in the grand scheme of things, but i'm not going to be swayed by the "logic" that if everyone else is doing it then i may as well, to.

I've found that i eat a lot better (in terms of taste and nutrition) as a vegan than i did as a vegetarian, and i ate better as a vegetarian than i did as a meateater.

In terms of nutrition, the only thing that is difficult to get from a purely vegan diet is vitamin B12, but it can still be found in mushrooms, yeast exctracts, fermented soy products, etc.

I also think that meat eating is pretty unsustainable, environmentally speaking, as well as being responsible for a hell of a lot of environmental degradation already.

Even if I had absolutely no ethical problem with eating animal products, I've read so many things about how unhealthy they are for you that I doubt I would ever eat them again. A bit of web-searching will turn up all sorts of rather alarming facts about levels of toxins, diseases, rates of cancer etc.

I could throw a lot more reasons at you, but instead, i'll just give you a recipe for a good TVP burger-

mix 1/4 of a cup of TVP and 1/4 of a cup of boiling water in a bowl. leave for 5-10 minutes, then stir in 1/2 a tablespoon of flour, mix up, squish into a patty, and fry. easy.

08:08 / 23.04.02

wembley - just quickly about fish farms - be very very careful with them and make sure you know a bit about the source farm before you buy. Wild fish caught in a responsible manner is always better, both in terms of taste and in terms of the environment (by responsibly, I mean line-caught really, and certainly not caught in deep-water trawlers...)

There is an ongoing scandal about the fish farms in Scotland - the growth hormones, antibiotics etc leach out of the farms (which are mostly situated near the mouths of rivers, IIRC) and not only get into the wild stocks, introducing different strains and reducing their disease resistance, but are also thought to be the casue of a really nasty algal muck which is currently clogging up the Scottish coastline and killing off shellfish beds, etc, as well as blocking the rivers themselves. I imagine the same could be said of fish farms elsewhere - I just happen to know about the Scottish (salmon) ones becasue they're always in Private Eye...

09:08 / 23.04.02

I can't remember where I got my recipe for TVP burgers, and I don't seem to have it anymore - count adam's sounds pretty good - but I personally think you can't go wrong adding some herbs and chopped onions or something, just to give it a bit of oomph. Plus, tvp is pretty versatile - you can use it in anything that requires mince - I've made tvp lasagna (not with vegan cheese, mind you) that went down very well even with the non-vegetarian contingent.

09:11 / 23.04.02

I like quorn mince better, but then it's not vegan, I suppose.

09:45 / 23.04.02

I've been vegetarian for ten years because I didn't like the idea of factory farming. I had thought of eating meat as natural and if it wasn't for the fact that the idea of eating it makes me feel sick I would have eaten free range meat. Then I watched one of those t.v docusoaps where they were on an island. They killed a chicken to eat saying ''well it's a horrible thing to do but we've got to do it''. This made me think that in the past eating meat was a 'necessary evil' in order to survive. Now in the rich western world there's a plentiful supply of nutritious vegetarian food so really we have no excuse to eat meat.

10:33 / 23.04.02

Went veggie LOONG time ago, went vegan in '97, mainly for the eco-political reasons listed above, since last summer I've been actively freegan. It's the most ethical, cheapest and most fun option. Never had any food-connected health problems, before or after. I love the donuts. They are plentiful.
Not all my food is free, but anything I pay for is strictly vegan. If I dumpster-dive/skip something with meat in, I may eat it, or I may not, depending on what it is. Mostly the stuff we get in dumpsters are totally edible fruit and vegetables, plenty of bread.

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