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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

The West Wing

  
  

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Bear
10:49 / 08.04.02
So does anyone watch the emmy award winning West Wing, I've been watching it on and off, but what I've seen I've really liked. I loved this part last night (which I got from imdb not memory!) -

Josiah 'Jed' Bartlet: I like how you call homosexuality an abombination.

Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President, the Bible does.

Josiah 'Jed' Bartlet: Yes, it does. Leviticus.
Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.

Josiah 'Jed' Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophmore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it OK to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you?

Martin Sheen is pretty damn good in it too?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:11 / 08.04.02
Yep, I watch it when I can.

In fact if there were a premiere like Bartlett here I would vote for him as would many of my fellow countrymen. (Note - I can't actually speak for the rest of the country but I would like to think that they would)
 
 
Big Furry Bear
12:26 / 08.04.02
Bartlett's rant last night was fantastic wasn't it. All you can say.

Did you read that in the U.S. some sort of warning was issued to let people know that the West Wing was not real (if only...)?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:31 / 08.04.02
Yeah, they issued it in New Mexico because the story line dealt with a nuclear waste transportation crash and references to waste containment sites. They didn't want a War of the Worlds go down on them.
 
 
The Strobe
13:05 / 08.04.02
It's probably the best thing on telly over here. Intelligent, slick, and actually has characters I care about.

Also, it shows the real halmarks of a true ensemble piece in the first few episodes of series 2 - the whole thing feels like something's missing. Which it is, whilst Josh has been in recovery. The whole doesn't work without all its constituent parts; also, note how individual parts, such as Toby at the moment, aren't quite functioning properly. We've had a season of everything "working", the team as one, and now we're being shown the flipside, the disruption of the group, and the way it affects everything.

God, it's good.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
20:25 / 20.07.04
Bump:

So it's back on E4 tonight, I almost missed it.

Anyone still watching?
Aaron's gone, could you tell?
How nasty was John Goodman?
 
 
Benny the Ball
20:35 / 20.07.04
I tried it, but found it pious. Not as bad as that terrible Lyon's Den or what ever Rob Lowe went onto...
 
 
Ganesh
00:11 / 21.07.04
I find it slightly smug.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
06:39 / 21.07.04
How so?
I'm always intrigued to hear people who think this show is smug. When I feel that it's mostly a damning example of what America could and should be like.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:39 / 21.07.04
What, like assassinating foreign political leaders? What a great thing to aspire to...

That's the big political problem with the West Wing for me: it thinks it's really liberal and left-wing, but actually a lot of the politics espoused are pretty standard centre-right (ie, Democrat) stuff.

But obviously that's not the deal-breaker for me, 'cos most of the cast are superb and sometimes so is the writing. John Spencer and the episode where we learn about Leo's relapse springs to mind. Unfortunately I think the show lost me round about the moment that CJ's new FBI bodyguard boyfriend popped into a store for a soda and got popped. Lazy, lazy emotional manipulation - I knew things had strayed too far into ER territory for comfort...
 
 
gridley
13:02 / 21.07.04
I haven't found the show to be worth watching since Aaron Sorkin stopped writing it. No matter how strong the acting, the characters I used to love just suddenly seemed lobotomized to me, devoid of that life-giving spark.

Fans of West Wing should also consider renting the DVD compliations of Sorkin's previous series Sports Night, which is about the cast and crew of a cable sports show (no, you don't have to be a sport fans to enjoy it). It had every bit of the brilliant characterization and snappy dialogue as West Wing (although the network did make Sorkin cut down the wordiness during the second season of SN).
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:23 / 21.07.04
When's it on atm? Tuesdays?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:58 / 22.07.04
(SEASON 2 SPOILERS)

Long but sorry...

The last episode of the second season is as far as I've made it so far, and was amazing...

From the script.

BARTLET
[tired] You're a son of a bitch, you know that?

He slowly walks up the center aisle.

BARTLET
She bought her first new car and you hit her with a drunk driver. What, was that supposed to be funny? "You can't conceive, nor can I, the appalling strangeness of the
mercy of God," says Graham Greene. I don't know who's ass he was kissing there 'cause I think you're just vindictive. What was Josh Lyman? A warning shot? That was my son. What did I ever do to yours but praise his glory and praise his name? There's a tropical storm that's gaining speed and power. They say we haven't had a storm this bad since you took out that tender ship of mine in the north Atlantic last year... 68 crew. You know what a tender ship does? Fixes the other ships. Doesn't even carry guns. Just goes around, fixes the other ships and delivers that mail. That's all it can do. [angry] Gratias tibi ago, domine. Yes, I lied. It was a sin. [holds out arms] I've committed many sins. Have I displeased you, you feckless thug? 3.8 million new jobs, that wasn't good? Bailed out Mexico, increased foreign trade, 30 million new acres of land for conservation, put Mendoza on the bench, we're not fighting a war, I've raised three children...

He ascends the stairs to the Inner Sanctuary.

BARTLET
[pleading] That's not enough to buy me out of the doghouse? Haec credam a deo pio? A deo iusto? A deo scito?

He stops at the top of the stairs and extends his arms.

BARTLET
Cruciatus in crucem! Tuus in terra servus nuntius fui officium perfeci. [angry] Cruciatus in crucem. [waves dismissively] Eas in crucem!

Bartlet turns away in anger. He descends to the lower sanctuary and lights a cigarette. He takes a single puff, drops the butt to the floor, and grinds it defiantly with his shoe.

--------

BARTLET
Ah... Damn it! Mrs. Landingham!

He turns away, realizing she won't come to his call, and then the door opens...

MRS. LANDINGHAM
[walks in, small and resolute] I really wish you wouldn't shout, Mr. President.

BARTLET
[beat, as he looks at her in disbelief] The door keeps blowing open.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
Yes, but there's an intercom and you could use it to call me at my desk.

BARTLET
I was...

MRS. LANDINGHAM
You don't know how to use the intercom.

BARTLET
It's not that I don't know how to use it, it's just that I haven't learned yet.

She looks at him and he smiles shyly, as if he's been caught lying.

BARTLET
I have M.S., and I didn't tell anybody.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
Yeah. So, you're having a little bit of a day.

BARTLET
You're gonna make jokes?

MRS. LANDINGHAM
God doesn't make cars crash, and you know it. Stop using me as an excuse.

BARTLET
[motions her to sit and sits down] The party's not going to want me to run.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
The party'll come back. You'll get them back.

BARTLET
I've got a secret for you, Mrs. Landingham. I've never been the most popular guy in the
Democratic Party.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
[sits opposite from him] I've got a secret for you, Mr. President your father was a prick who could never get over the fact that he wasn't as smart as his brothers. Are
you in a tough spot? Yes. Do I feel sorry for you? I do not. Why? Because there are people way worse off than you.

BARTLET
Give me numbers.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
I don't know numbers. You give them to me.

BARTLET
How about a child born this minute has a one in five chance of being born into poverty?

MRS. LANDINGHAM
How many Americans don't have health insurance?

BARTLET
44 million.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
What's the number one cause of death for black men under 35?

BARTLET
Homicide.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
How many Americans are behind bars?

BARTLET
Three million.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
How many Americans are drug addicts?

BARTLET
Five million.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
And one of five kids in poverty?

BARTLET
That's 13 million American children.

From a shot up top, we see President Bartlet is talking, and the opposite chair is empty.

BARTLET
Three and a half million kids go to schools that are literally falling apart. We need 127 billion in school construction, and we need it today!

MRS. LANDINGHAM
To say nothing of 53 people trapped in an embassy.

BARTLET
Yes.

MRS. LANDINGHAM
You know, if you don't want to run again, I respect that. [stands up] But if you don't run 'cause you think it's gonna be too hard or you think you're gonna lose... well, God, Jed, I don't even want to know you.
 
 
Brigade du jour
23:48 / 22.07.04
Okay, let me just hop up on my well-worn fence here ... oop, nearly scraped my bum. Anyway ...

Flyboy, I think it's fair to say that WW can be a little blind to its own inherent conservative (or centre-right as you put it) fictional administration, and the example you gave of the episode where Bartlett deliberates over whether to assassinate a foreign leader is particularly appropriate.

However, I think the engaging thing about the programme, at least for viewers of a far more left-leaning political persuasion such as me (and, might I assume, you?) is that it presents exactly the kinds of dilemmas a character of strong moral fibre and decency (which Jed Bartlett certainly is, IMHO) is forced to deal with in a government that asks him to take unpalatable (sometimes hideous) responsibilities.

This might just be the old 'I'm working to bring down the system from within' argument I'm falling back on here, but even so, the moral and political conflict Bartlett and the other characters frequently suffer is exactly what provides the show with such good drama. It's not just boring soap opera where characters cling on to devastating personal secrets or finally fuck each other after four series of passive-aggressive flirting; WW asks some pretty unpleasant questions about US policy on a number of small and large issues, usually through analogy of course, and doesn't always chuck in a convenient answer at the end.

Okay, it might not ask these questions in a brazen enough manner, but this is an American programme looking in on its own country, and in this day and age of terrified media self-censorship it's a minor miracle they're allowed to ask them at all.

What I'm trying to say is that although WW can be frustrating in its political insularity, I for one always get the sense that the creative people behind it are angry at that insularity, and in depicting it they want the people watching the show to get angry too.
 
 
Smoothly
01:06 / 23.07.04
I'm joining the Brigade on this one. The assassination story is about the conflict between ideals and the grubby political reality:

President: It's absolutely wrong.
Chief of Staff: It is. But you have to do it anyway.
Pres: Why?
CoS: Because you won.

I *like* the fact that the characters are ambivalent, doubtful and compromised. Makes them fleshier.

It all goes horribly downhill post-Sorkin, IMHO. One thing I admired so much about the early series is the way the story's told in both figure and ground (something I've been a sucker for since Northern Exposure). Paleface gives a great example, above. But in season five, plots which would have been fat-free, filleted and layered into one episode start to stodge, collapse and sprawl. Character bibles seem to have abandoned altogether. They were once so well defined that you'd seldom hear a line that could come from anyone else's mouth, where, later, who says what becomes pretty much interchangable. Not to say that it doesn't remain among the best TV out there, but a shadow of its former self.


Interested to hear gridley recommend Sports Night because I recently watched the first few eps, with considerable anticipation, and I was really disappointed. I thought the dialogue was pretty turd in compariosn, the characters powerfully unappealing and it totally lacked the lightness of touch I love about TWW. Perhaps I was too quick to judge and should persevere with it.
 
 
Bastard Tweed
04:19 / 23.07.04
I hate to be crass (outside of the conversation forum anyway) but after watching five episodes of Sports Night I thought it was best summed up by another one of Family Guy's cruel references.

Kid Who's Tripping For the First Time: I finally understand it all . . . I can feel colors and hear sounds . . . The trees are talking to me . . . And Sports Night is the comedy that's too good to be funny . . .
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:46 / 23.07.04
Yeah, I never found Sports Night to be exceedingly funny, just really really good. Especially in those first couple of episodes, where we get that Football player's sexual harassment, the hunting trip, The Lion King, Donna Moss' turn as wardrobe gal; just an assload of great A and B plots. I still have to get through the whole box, but it was much less fun when Macy showed up and the show was always in constant jeopardy.

Compare that to West Wing, where it's nearly always extravagantly funny ("Man, did I get the fuzzy end of that lollipop.") and consistently emotionally engaging and dramatic, much for the reasons already outlined above. The worst thing about Sorkin leaving was the arc of Jed's comprimising has pretty much completely been abandoned for week to week problem solving. Seeing Sorkin track Jed through an 8 year stint of leadership, continuously making comprimises, especially after consequences he had to face up to at the end of S4, would have been extraordinary. And, also, I think he would have handled Jed's inevitable death in the final episode of the show with much more panache. I can only imagine how Wells will do it. HELICOPTER CRASHES INTO OVAL OFFICE, DECAPITATING PRESIDENT BARTLET. JOSH AND DONNA MOMENTARILY STOP HUMPING IN TOBY'S LONG ABANDONED OFFICE. THE NOISE OF THE HELICOPTER SUBSIDES. THEY CONTINUE HUMPING.

THE END.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:56 / 23.07.04
Let me just clarify that I don't see the assassination of Shareef (spelling?) as an example of the WW thinking it's left-wing and liberal but actually being centre-right, 'moderate' (ie conservative), and so on, because that was clearly presented as a morally dubious action (albeit arguably a 'necessity', which does keep to certain cultural conventions in depicting 'our' 'good' politicians making foreign policy decisions, but let's skip that). I'm thinking of things like the 9/11 special episode - was that where it all started to go wrong for the show? - which has the schoolkid asking "What do you call somewhere where this happens all the time?" and one of the staffers answers "Israel". Rather than, y'know, any of the places 'we' or our allies drop bombs, take out buildings, kill people etc. I'm talking about Toby's rather sudden transformation into a 'liberal' hawk who believes in a clash of civilisations that has to be solved by force and doesn't seem to understand the difference between Islam and terrorism. I'm talking about the real excruciating pain and cringing that is caused every time there's a sexism/feminism storyline. Remember the ugly feminist woman who mishears something Sam says to sexy Republican blonde Ainsley and accuses him of inappropriate behaviour? Talk about your straw-woman...
 
 
Smoothly
15:47 / 23.07.04
I agree with you on the Isaac & Ishmael (9/11) episode. How we cringed. And yeah, I do think it's not the hardcore liberal pornography it's often characterised as. Right from the start, Jed is seen to be far from the bleeding-heart liberal (cf. 'A Proportional Response' - Season 1, Ep 3). I'm just saying that this is somethng that's *good* about it. Toby's "They'll like us when we *win*" rant is about his disillusionment, with politics and his personal relationships (ie. it's largely about Andy). The characters are complex and their motivations are complex, and they're often frustrated (I think of Toby explaining to the brother of the dead homeless veteran, for whom he wants to arrange a military funeral that "I'm an influential man....a powerful man....[tails off]").
I suppose what I'm saying is that TWW might be more conservative than it's commonly supposed to be, but I don't think it's necesarily more conservative than *it* thinks it is.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:02 / 23.07.04
Love it love it love it and I hate you bastards with cable and the new series. I am not reading your thread, in protest.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:40 / 24.07.04
I think Lord John Marbury should seize control of the White House and return the errant colony to British rule, where it belongs.
 
 
wicker woman
06:56 / 25.07.04
Or perhaps Britain should be towed to a point off of the east coast and become the 51st state, as it should have been.

Oh yeah; West Wing is good stuff. I don't watch it regularly, just the occasional episode that I catch late night on Bravo. Mostly got into it because of a serious addiction to Sports Night, tho. Ran out and bought that dvd set the moment it was available.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
20:36 / 25.07.04
I really love the West Wing. Its politics are lousy, and have gotten far lousier since 9/11.* But like Flyboy, that's not why I watch it. Aaron Sorkin just knows.... something. About characterisation, about plot, about wordy, nerdy humour. The most recent season is about to be screened here in September, but I'm not holding my breath. A WW without Sorkin isn't imaginable, or it is, but it will be governed by stupid soap opera logic: Donna and Josh will actually get together (say it isn't so); CJ actually has a boyfriend; etc. All the unspoken rules for the characters will fall down, and we'll have to endure watching the wonderful, amazing acting talent squirm uncomfortably and try to do their best.

* Does anyone think that one of the reasons Sorkin started taking way too much coke, thus jeopardising his creative control over WW, was because of studio pressure to conservatise the political stuff, post-9/11? In 2001, the show definitely changed, but ambivalently. And I don't think Sorkin would be so stupid, given the show's self-consciousness of its own compromised if heartfelt liberalism, to let himself be pulled to the right of his own accord. I could be wrong, but it's a theory I have.
 
 
gridley
19:29 / 27.07.04
strange... I've never understood why people expect any half-hour show to be a laugh-track filled sit-com....
 
 
Brigade du jour
15:10 / 28.11.04
Just wanted to draw everyone's attention to the remarkable escapist properties The West Wing possesses. I've been watching the first season again and had a bit of a Naked Lunch moment when I superimposed Bush and his colleagues on top of the main characters.

Because the depiction of the machinations of government and of its public perception is presented in such fast-moving detail it's very easy to believe that this is exactly how things work in the real White House. Not a pleasant thought considering the present incumbent.

Sorry, just thought I'd depress everyone. What a Toby I am.
 
 
Brigade du jour
15:14 / 28.11.04
Ok, here's a more cheery idea - who's your favourite character?

And this isn't the Conversation, so you have to give reasons.

Mine is Leo, mainly because of the episode (already mentioned on this thread, IIRC) in which he publicly confesses his alcohol and drug addiction. Just absolutely fucking superlative underacting by John Spencer, and every other actor called upon to support him without crying and cuddling him.

Plus, there's just this mature quality about Leo that makes me really believe he really would remain largely uncorrupted by the huge power he wields.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
17:46 / 28.11.04
I think Josh is my favorite character (it's hard to choose). Mostly, cause he seems like a regular person. He messes up relationships, he can be an idiot about feelings, he blows up, etc. Everyone else seems to be a little too serious.

Runner-up is Charlie. Cause he's so freaking slick. Love when he takes Toby's money after the pool game a couple seasons ago. Favorite moment is when he puts in his two cents during the 9/11 episode about the parallels between inner city gangs and terrorism. his casual acting there is superb.
 
 
Ganesh
18:23 / 28.11.04
Because the depiction of the machinations of government and of its public perception is presented in such fast-moving detail it's very easy to believe that this is exactly how things work in the real White House.

And that, I think, is one of the reasons it's faintly malignant, generally speaking - and, to me, unwatchable. The 'slick realism' element lulls one into rather more belief-suspension than perhaps should be the case (IMHO) with something so obviously self-congratulatory fantasy-fodder. I have a similar problem with ER and, to a certain extent, every other glossily seductive American (and both the shows I've mentioned are deeply American) high-production-valuefest featuring idealistic hyperprofessionals perpetuating comforting stereotypes (doctors are chest-beating martyrs; those in charge of the US know what they're doing) in high-speed witticisms. To me, it seems slightly... I dunno, brain-softening.

Oddly enough, I don't have a favourite character.
 
 
Brigade du jour
23:37 / 28.11.04
Ganesh, are you trying to say you're not a fan?

Seriously though, it's an interesting point you raised about WW and ER etc being brain-softening. Tricking us all with their top-quality intellectual drama when actually they're pandering to stereotypes, just more cleverly than their inferior rivals.

I have to say that I'm pretty aware of how manipulative this programme is, even when I'm watching it, but still I do find it very seductive, and still I well up when I'm supposed to well up and giggle when I'm supposed to giggle.

What interests me about your point, Ganesh, is that I find it important afterwards (and sometimes during) to quite deliberately revise my experience of the episode I just watched and pull apart its nefarious politics and its goshdarned sneakiness.

In WW's defence I'll opine that it's one of the best pieces of drama at hiding its manipulation, at least of its kind. But of course, I'd love to hear any examples of better ones. I don't watch enough good telly!
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:00 / 28.12.04
I just got season three for Christmas. I liked 'Isaac and Ishmael', but I would have prefered it to run without the whole "Hi, I'm Martin Sheen, you may remember me from such TV shows as The West Wing series one and two" at the start, it was inappropriate and didn't sit well with what was otherwise a well-written piece.

And of course, several years later, we see that American policy has been the exact opposite of pretty much everything said in that episode...
 
 
Aertho
15:05 / 28.12.04
Interesting you bring this back up. I was watching the WW Monday Marathon on Bravo last night. The last episode that i watched was "Isaac and Ishmael".

WW is one of my favorite television programs. WW sits next to Desperate Housewives, Arrested Development, and Lost. I'm probably soft, but I'm pop, too.

I'm really interested in what happens when Smits takes over... Who gets dropped? Who stays? Surely not Donna!
 
 
doglikesparky
16:52 / 28.12.04
Careful with the spoilers, Chad...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
05:15 / 29.12.04
We're watching the first episodes of non-Sorkin WW at the moment. I'd been warned, but the plots and the scripts are so underwhelming that I don't even feel angry. I can see signs that it may soon be one of those mediocre US dramas you'd only watch while you're waiting for something else to come on -- and then, you'd watch it while you read the newspaper. Just like ER (which I never liked anyhow.)

This should make me very mad, cuz I loved the WW at its best. But hey, I have Arrested Development to like nowadays. Plus I can't stand watching Josh become even more of an arrogant asshole than he is.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:19 / 29.12.04
So, does Sorkin leave and it all gets crap at the end of season three or four? Where's the point that someone who enjoys the show should really jump ship for the sake of their fond memories?
 
 
doglikesparky
11:47 / 29.12.04
If I remember, Sorkin left at the end of the 4th Season and the show took a notable downhill turn for the first half of the 5th.
Then it picked up again and slowly started getting back to form.
As far as I'm concerned, the last handful of episodes (last few from the first half of season 6) have been back on top form again.
I don't think there's any reason to stop watching really, just be aware that it goes off the boil for a while. Even when it's just coasting, the show is still better than most.
 
  

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