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Brass Eye question

 
  

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Eloi Tsabaoth
12:09 / 30.07.01
We are not alone.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:03 / 30.07.01
I think the fact that there has been this amount of hysteria is becuase the two main media sources that Morris was attacking (both directly and indirectly) were... The Sun and The Daily Mail. And who is attacking Morris in the most vicious and uncalled for way? The Daily Mail and the Sun. I'm thinking of writing to Blair, Blunkett and Jowell and suggesting they only make themselves foolish for commenting on a program without watching it (I know Blair hasn't, i might suggest he rein in his ministers) but on the other hand I may not as I know it will have no effect).
 
 
angel
13:32 / 30.07.01
I'm really not sure what I want to say here, but I really feel the need to express a different opinion, another angle to the prevailing attitude towards Jam and Brass Eye.

I would like to think that I am an intelligent, politically/media aware woman who appreciates comedy in many forms but also one who accepts that there are some jokes in life that I just don't get.

When Jam first appeared one of the most "controversial" sketches was the one about rape. <Husband: - "Honey, it didn't mean anything, I didn't make love to her, I raped her!"> Now, on a theoretical level I understood that they were trying to challenge people's attitudes to comedy and also society's attitudes to relationships, but I felt so disgusted and distressed by that sketch I had to leave the room (as did a number of other intelligent women I know). As a survivor of sexual abuse I'm really sorry to say that I can't think of one positive thing to say about that sketch. Just thinking about it now has me shaking, feeling nauseous and becoming quite teary.

Why I am even telling you this? I guess because I want to say that it is all very well to push boundaries and to challenge the status quo and most of the time I am completely up for that, but I guess I would like to put forward to idea that for some people these subjects aren't just an intellectual concept but have been a reality at some point in their lives. It is sometimes really hard, if not impossible to disassociate the pain and distress of the event from the "intellectual appreciation of a political point".

I realise that I am reacting <oh, yes and I am reacting> to just one issue/point out of the many that Jam and Brass Eye are attempting to make (and in fact I may well be missing their point entirely), but I think that this experience has unfortunately tainted my ability to appreciate any of the work that they do. I just don't get it! On occasion I have managed to raise a small smile at something particularly silly, but I'm sad to say, they've completely lost me.

As a disclaimer I just want to point out that I'm not having a go at anyone who enjoys the programs, I just wanted to point out that for some of us, what they have to say is not easy or even funny! It's great that so many of you enjoy the show, but I don't think the arguement for or against is as straight forward as people might want to believe. <Oh, and I'm not trying to score your sympathy either, just expressing an opinion>

Peace and Love

<I've nearly deleted all of the above several times and not posted it at all, please be gentle with me>
 
 
No star here laces
13:46 / 30.07.01
Angel, I think you're basically right.

I mean I laughed all the way through the BE special, and it wasn't until the end that I actually started to think what a victim of child abuse would think of the show, and it wasn't a pleasant thought.

It's very difficult to disentangle what is basically a very good satire on the media from an incredibly misguided piece of execution. Personally I just feel that Morris pushed this one too far. Perhaps if he had focused more on the mobs and the celebrities and omitted the sketches involving actual children and 'paedophiles' talking about children this could've been avoided, but my guess is that the taboo was just too big for them not to want to break it.

How does the 'they don't have to watch it if they don't want to' argument sit with all of this?
 
 
Ellis
13:47 / 30.07.01
I agree with your post Angel, I think it would be silly to ask someone who has been touched by abuse to let something like Brasseye slide past them, of course it will affect them and "taint" their veiw of it.
 
 
Ellis
13:50 / 30.07.01
quote:Originally posted by The King of Bongo:
How does the 'they don't have to watch it if they don't want to' argument sit with all of this?


There does seem to be two strands of criticism for Brassye:

1) I saw the show and was offended.

and

2) I didn't see the show, but it trivilaised paedophila.

[ 30-07-2001: Message edited by: Ellis ]
 
 
angel
14:17 / 30.07.01
Thanks guys, I've more than once seriously debated my sanity and intelligence level as I couldn't see what was so funny, and so many people that I know and love think so highly of it.

I haven't put forth an opinion about the Paedophile special because I don't believe you can criticise something you haven't seen.
I bet some politicians are wishing they believed the same thing!
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
14:26 / 30.07.01
The issue is extremely complex. I guess the questions we have to ask are:

1)If Chris Morris was intending to make people think about how the media sensationalises paedophilia, has he failed? (So far everyone I hear who has 'got' the programme would probably already know the media sensationalises it.)

2)Do the benefits of showing the programme outweigh the detriments(child abuse victims upset, Strengthening of censorship on TV, damage to careers of Chris Morris and everyone involved...)?

3)Was it intended to be funny, or shocking, or thought provoking? (Personally, I'd go for all three...)

4)What do the politicians hope to achieve? (It's ironic that a show about MPs jumping trendy bandwagons should have this response.)

5)What will Tony say...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:27 / 30.07.01
Interestingly, there were bits of Blue Jam that I found uncomfortable and/or morally questionable, in a way that Brasseye or his other work in general has never seemed to me... I don't want to be so trite as to say "and maybe that's the point!", but I do think that Blue Jam was possibly 'about' the limits of comedy, investigating when things stop being funny (I'm not excusing it, I'm just wondering whether some of it was meant to make people laugh at all - a lot of it was just plain creepy, nightmarish even).
 
 
Ganesh
15:24 / 30.07.01
I think it's misguided to lump 'Brass Eye' and 'Jam' together: the former is sharper, more specifically satire, while the latter's more diffuse, less pointed, a more general exploration of the grey area between being shocked, disgusted and amused.

As far as I can see, the 'Brass Eye Special' has succeeded admirably. A discussion has been precipitated, in which (according to Xipe Totec's link, anyway) several viewpoints appear to be represented, the 'rational' as well as the rabid. It's interesting to see that several actual 'victims of child sexual abuse' (as opposed to those who merely 'speak on their behalf') seem to understand the aim of the programme.

Chris Morris must be loving it...
 
 
Jamieon
15:45 / 30.07.01
quote: 1)If Chris Morris was intending to make people think about how the media sensationalises paedophilia, has he failed? (So far everyone I hear who has 'got' the programme would probably already know the media sensationalises it.)


It's difficult to answer this one because the binary distinction between success/failure may be inappropriate and misleading. It has failed inasmuch as those incapable of understanding it have failed to understand it. But I can't shake the feeling that those same people would have a great deal of difficulty appreciating that the media sensationalises paedophilia in the first place - remember, the bulk of people that were enraged by the programme actively consume the tabloid press and enjoy a great many "opinions" and "strong feelings" regarding paedophiles, etc. Perhaps critiques of this sort are forever cursed with the plague of "preaching to the converted". But, hopefully, this cannot always be the case.... And so we move on to the show's potential successes.....

It could be argued that the intense cortical activity occuring within the national psyche, brought about by the collision of two opposing ideologies (Media "good" and "true" vs Media potentially dangerous and the constructor of "truth"); and the rengagement with oneself/one's opinions generated by television that refuses to comfort or pacify can only be a good thing. The conflict may encourage certain individuals to renegotiate their relationship with reality/the tabloid media/politicians who jump on bandwagons.
I don't mean it will change peoples minds over night, but it might force people to think about issues they would, otherwise, have ignored/been unaware of. If one more person makes the comment,

"Newsnight: ever time I watch it I'm reminded of Brasseye"

Then that's probably a good thing.

I guess the real guage of success/failure
are the seeds that the show plants. We can't expect a show like Brasseye to change the face of tabloid journalism, etc. overnight.

In short, I'm with 'Nesh.
 
 
Graeme McMillan
16:19 / 30.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
It's interesting to see that several actual 'victims of child sexual abuse' (as opposed to those who merely 'speak on their behalf') seem to understand the aim of the programme.


Someone I know was abused as a child, and she not only appreciated the show, she wishes it had gone further than it did...
 
 
sleazenation
16:46 / 30.07.01
I picked up a copy of the mail today that someone had left on the train. It raged agaist morris and his work as 'a brain wrong of a one-off man mental'. the whole article made me laugh out loud but also wonder if the journalists employed by the mail were as stupid as the politicians and celebs that had been duped and manipulated by morris or if they were merely playing their role as 'outraged voice of the moral majority'
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
17:15 / 30.07.01
Yeah, it's difficult to know how sincere the press is.
But my guess is: not bloody much.
More news in: Steve Coogan has defended Brass Eye, saying much of the criticism is born from ignorance. He is right.
The police are looking to see if the makers should be prosecuted under obscenity laws. See Steve Coogan's comment...
 
 
Ellis
18:27 / 30.07.01
Did anyone see the Channel 4 news at 7 ?

Very pro Channel 4, but it would be, I thought his discussion with Tessa Jowell was interesting, pointing out that somee of the MP's haven't seen the program, that the Daily Mail has pictures of bikini clad teenagers on page 3, and the paedophile hate mob organised by the News of the World ("why didn the government speak out against that?").

Very good.
 
 
Ellis
08:36 / 31.07.01
The front page of the Daily Mail says "Jail trade in sick TV show". Apparently paedophiles are getting their rocks off to the show.



Giggle.

Also; The Star shoots itself in the head:



Actually its not that funny is it? Kinda sick really.

[ 31-07-2001: Message edited by: Ellis ]
 
 
Saveloy
08:36 / 31.07.01
Heh, see also: The Sunday Sport, which once did a countdown to one of its models' 16th birthday, when it would be legal to publish topless photos of her). Those into necro-porn might like to check out the Mail on Sunday, which printed an article on the children who drowned in a car recently, with an insert headed "What Must Have Happened to Those Poor Kids" detailing, stage by stage, exactly What Must Have Happened to Those Poor Kids in loving, lingering detail. Apparently, anyway - I haven't read it myself but that doesn't matter, does it?
 
 
rizla mission
08:36 / 31.07.01
kinda sick?

If the above picture was a Morris creation, it would be his best gag yet.

Let's print it off a couple of hundred times and paste it all over Fleet Street in the hope that it might lead to a few suicides.

This 'public outrage' business seems totally out of control though - I mean, you expect a bit of huffing and puffing from the Mail, questions in parliament etc., but Brasseye was the top news story on all the BBC radio stations yesterday, above numerous clearly far more important items .. does anyone else find that EXTREMELY weird?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:36 / 31.07.01
Apparently Jeremy Paxman will interview Chris Morris on Newsnight this Thursday.

Paxman. Morris. Interview. Apparently.

Strange planet.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
08:36 / 31.07.01
No, no, he was reading it from a script, y'know, for the kidz. Can't believe Simon Mayo and the crab DNA thing. The computer keyboards reminded me irresistibly of RRM's claim to be able to smell padeophiles - presumably he sniffed their keyboards.

The crime one was excellent. Is that the one where Vanessa Feltz makes a video speaking as the murderer's victim? Classic. Chris Morris as the fascist moustachio'd head of a borstal: beautiful.

"This borstal is my shoe. You are the dirt on my shoe. Lick yourself off. Go on! Don't actually do it! Where's your bleeding self-respect?!"

Anyone else fancy him and his subversive genius?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:14 / 31.07.01
Apparently, the majority of the complaints were about the part in-studio, with Morris and the 'paedophile' in stocks.

A section which, to be honest, I thought was designed purely to instigate exactly the kind of hysteria that it has. There was no satirical point being made there, and it wasn't even particularly funny. Just a tired old joke.

Will Self, on last night's Newsnight, claimed that the recent intervention by Jowell, the statement from Downing Street and the subsequent semi-retraction were created purely because "Downing Street are scared of Morris specifically."

It goes without saying that this is good.
 
 
Ganesh
10:27 / 31.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Whisky Priestess:
The computer keyboards reminded me irresistibly of RRM's claim to be able to smell padeophiles - presumably he sniffed their keyboards.


Heh! I thought of that too!
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
10:46 / 31.07.01
quote:Quoted from John Bayer in The Daily Star:
On one hand they transmit disgraceful programmes like Brass Eye,and on the other hand they have a dislike of wrestling,which is just acting and healthy messing about.

This cannot be a real person. This has to be Chris Morris. The 'messing about' comment totally gives him away...
 
 
CameronStewart
11:41 / 31.07.01
>>>The crime one was excellent. Is that the one where Vanessa Feltz makes a video speaking as the murderer's victim?<<<

"Do you know me? I'm the small child whose head you stove in when I caught you burgling my house...Why did you dothat? I hate you!!"

>>>"This borstal is my shoe. You are the dirt on my shoe. Lick yourself off. Go on! Don't actually do it! Where's your bleeding self-respect?!"<<<

Just in the pedantic interests of preserving Morris' inspired language, the line is: "Where's your self re-cocking-spect?"

[ 31-07-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
Cochese
12:00 / 31.07.01
the daily star....shudder...has the slimmest connection to reality of all newspapers, aside from the sport which is obviously beamed in straight from The Land of Spank. Anna Kournakova worship, many, many pictures of miss Church and the page three girls are surely all chosen for their tiny childlike faces. I have hated it for many years. I say we kill it.
 
 
sleazenation
12:45 / 31.07.01
cameron-- heh-- i was thinking what you said.

My fav morrisism is the one about the 'brain wrong of a one-off man mental'*

* this is probably inaccurate too.
 
 
Jamieon
12:56 / 31.07.01
Ooooh Cam, how I love that "self re-cocking-spect" line...

I was gonna get all pedantic about it if you didn't.

Other faves:

"Why is it we can't think of the British Isles without the word 'PAEDOPH' in front of it?"

And the bit in crime where he mispronounces the word "metaphor":

"...'Sick' is a kind of 'Metaffa'....."

Oh yeah, and the "Fucking Noddy" sketch.....

etc.
 
 
CameronStewart
15:45 / 31.07.01
My very fave, which seems to fly over the heads of most people, is in the intro to Drugs:

"This isn't so much the "Nein"-ties, as the "Ja, Danke"-ties..."
 
 
Higher than the sun :)
18:24 / 31.07.01
Ooookayyyyyy.
Let me work this through.
Chris Morris makes TV programmes which saterise the hysterical knee jerk reaction to certain subjetcts. Drugs, Paedophillia.
The as his programme is screened there is a.....Yes you've guessed it. A hysterial knee jerk reaction.

Duh!

[ 31-07-2001: Message edited by: Monica ]
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
09:17 / 01.08.01
Let me just bring you right back to...

quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Pin:
And if Richard Blackwood is dumb enough to feel more suggestible after sniffing a keyboard because he was told he'd feel more suggestible after sniffing a keyboard, then how is it he walks upright?


expressionless and I agree - Pin rules the world.

Brasseye special - I loved it. Thought it was hilarious. And yes, it was less focussed than the original six-part series they're repeating now - elements (like the 'filling stadiums with children') appeared more Day Today in form than the later show.

Discussion about the effect of the 'Paedogeddon' ep is kind of both getting and missing the point at the same time. Entertainment isn't about the idea behnid a show, it's about an 'entertained' reaction - in other words, the reader decides, not the writer. One man's meat is another man's Boyzone (to keep the images in the family).

So for me, 'Paedogeddon' was entertainment. To say that it's just entertainment is reductive - clearly this thread alone proves otherwise. But in my view, Chris Morris has always been about two things... i) Surreal mangling of things we take for granted, basic assumptions, even down to his beautiful warp of the weft of the language, and ii) provoking a reaction. Which is part and parcel of i), really...

This is basic Barbelith. Restate your assumptions, and the underlying assumptions that inform them. Then step back and see if they still make sense. Anyone ever written a simple word like 'cat' and had that dream-like few seconds where you look down at the page, and just know that you've spelled it wrong? Kind of like that.

So it doesn't really matter whether all or none of the celebrities involved were 'in on it'. The fact that we're discussing it has done what it set out to do. IMIncreasinglyKnackeredO.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:28 / 01.08.01
OK - ONE HUNDRED MESSAGES IN JUST THREE OR FOUR DAYS. THERE MUST BE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO'D BE INTERESTED IN REWRITING THEIR OPINIONS AS EXPRESSED HERE AND SUBMITTING THEM TO THE ZINE? ROTHKOID? ANYONE? I'D LOVE TO DO A COUPLE OF ARTICLES - A PRO AND A CON PERHAPS, OR TAKING ON DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THE ISSUE...

[sorry for the shouting - trying to make an impression here]
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
09:43 / 01.08.01
I think Fly or runt vs. Rothkoid would be interesting. Not in an adversarial sense, of course. Unless they were naked and covered in jam. But that's just me.
 
 
Ganesh
09:44 / 01.08.01
Or Liquid Silk.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
09:44 / 01.08.01
And that's just you.
 
 
Ellis
09:44 / 01.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack The Bodiless:



expressionless and I agree - Pin rules the world.



I grudgingly agree.

Anyway...

1) Does anyone think that the Brasseye special has changed anything?

<personally it has made me look at the news in a different light, the pictures of Fergies daughters, the Charlotte Church thing in The Star etc)

2) Is it true that Chris Morris will be on Paxman's programme this Thursday?

3) According to our Beloved Daily Mail Chris Morris refused to help police investigate child sex abuse at his Roman Catholic public school. Despite admitting that he could recall much of the depravity that happened there, he refused to give evidence or take part in the subsequent trial. Is this hypocrisy? Do you think it undermines his stance at all?
 
  

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