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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Brass Eye question

  
  

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Ellis
20:09 / 26.07.01
Are the celebrities featured really THAT dumb?

Or are they just acting/ playing along?

Heavy electricity my arse.
 
 
Graeme McMillan
20:11 / 26.07.01
Tonight's new episode just had me stunned that those fooled could actually be that dumb... nice Hall and Oates joke, though.
 
 
Ganesh
20:35 / 26.07.01
Yeah, they really were that dumb. That's what Brass Eye takes a particular delight in exposing, the celebrity trend for jumping on any given bandwagon without doing even the most basic research into whatever they're endorsing. The fact that MPs - individuals with real power - will happily go down the same road is, if anything, more disturbing.
 
 
invisible_al
20:45 / 26.07.01
What I found funny is that when I flicked over to see what was on ITV, the tonight show were using almost exactly the same graphics as Brass Eye and the tone of reporting was even slightly more hysterical.
Well I suppose Satire has been dead for a while, Bush had it gassed.

[ 26-07-2001: Message edited by: invisible_al ]
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
09:50 / 27.07.01
hadn't seen this one before, and so had been denied the prize sight of Phil collins wearing a 'Nonce Patrol' t-shirt.

joy.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:50 / 27.07.01
Though I'm sure they cut the Noel Edmonds thing from the 'Crime' program.
 
 
The Puck
09:50 / 27.07.01
had the same arguement with my mate tonight after seeing phill collins "nonce sense" if they were in on it its still pretty fuking funny
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:50 / 27.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Ellis:
Are the celebrities featured really THAT dumb?

Or are they just acting/ playing along?

Heavy electricity my arse.

Well you see, a celebrity shares more genes with a crab, that's not been proven scientifically, but that's a fact...
 
 
Ellis
09:50 / 27.07.01
quote:Originally posted by The Ungodly Lozt and Found Office:
Though I'm sure they cut the Noel Edmonds thing from the 'Crime' program.


Was that from the crime program?

On the advert that was the best bit...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:50 / 27.07.01
Hmm.

First time seeing BrassEye tonight. And I have to say that I was more impressed by the repeat than by the new one; it seemed less... desperate? I don't know. The first one seemed to try a bit hard, to a certain extent. Fair judgement? What do people who'd seen the rest of the series think?

I do think that at least some of the talking heads are in on it, and going along with it. Not the MPs, I'm thinking, but some of the others - sprinkled amongst the truly blindsided to create a uniform effect. The genius part about it is that the celebs are so b-list that it wouldn't matter if they were in on it or not; their credibility is pretty ratshit anyway, so a postmodern chinny-scratchy "Ah, but I was in on it all along!" response from them would make them look just as unfortunate as their hook-line-sinker swallowing of the ruse. Win-win.
 
 
CameronStewart
09:50 / 27.07.01
If they were in on the joke, why do they invariably denounce the programme and, as in the case of Phil Collins, threaten to sue?

I think, at the most, some of them (like Peregrine Worsthorne in the Animals episode) deeply suspect they may be being wound up, but press on anyways, just in case it is real.

Hands up who recorded the Special and is willing to make me a copy...

[ 27-07-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
The Strobe
09:50 / 27.07.01
I hadn't seen it before, though I had seen the Day Today, and knew of Brasseye... and like Rothkoid, I found the "Crime" episode far more effective.

That's not to say I didn't enjoy the Paedophilia one... maybe enjoy's the wrong word - I found the mob outside the prison very, very effective considering general overreaction of the public. The "Crime" one felt less earnest, more natural, there wasn't a sense of it being hard-working to overcome the subject matter.

Still... wish there was more of Morris on TV. The style of his programs is far more effective and less-insulting than much of what passes for humour, and god forbid, "satire" these days.
 
 
Ganesh
09:50 / 27.07.01
The celebs really aren't in on the joke; that's not how Chris Morris operates. Not a single one of them has subsequently tried to gain kudos from appearing on 'Brass Eye'; on the contrary, they seem well aware (in retrospect, anyway) of how negatively it reflects upon them and a) sue, b) keep quiet, or c) mutter darkly "well, if you think paedophilia's a joke...", etc.

I think the paedophilia 'special' one was important because, until relatively recently, it's been something of a hallowed taboo for television comedians, 'beyond the pale'. 'Brass Eye' pointed up the absurdities and hypocrisies inherent in this view.
 
 
Ganesh
09:50 / 27.07.01
I particularly liked the opening segment with Gary Lineker warning against paedophiles 'trying to get inside' photographs, and Chris Rock smelling a computer keyboard.

"Phwoa! I feel more suggestible already!"
 
 
Tom Coates
09:50 / 27.07.01
quote: First time seeing BrassEye tonight. And I have to say that I was more impressed by the repeat than by the new one; it seemed less... desperate? I don't know. The first one seemed to try a bit hard, to a certain extent. Fair judgement? What do people who'd seen the rest of the series think?

Basically completely agree. The crime one was effortless and effective, while the Paedophilia one was just a little too unsure of its target. I think it's fucking great that the program was made and put on television, because the air of terrified silence that surrounds anything but the official 'burn em' line is clearly something that needs to be punctured, but at the same time it didn't really work for me...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:50 / 27.07.01
quote:Originally posted by CameronStewart:
If they were in on the joke, why do they invariably denounce the programme and, as in the case of Phil Collins, threaten to sue?
Hmm. I just had a big conversation about this. The other person thinks I'm a fucking idiot (shut up, you in the back), though I think the show's not run exactly as has been stated. From what I've read, most of the denouncements seem to come routed via C4; that is, in releases or interviews from them. The more cynical side of me thinks that it's a well-orchestrated PR job on the public, more than the celebs. I think it's in C4's interest to play up the "we got 'em" line because it plays on the public's assumption that celebrities are all stupid and disconnected. I don't believe that they all are. Richard Briers, some of the MPs, yes. But more of the others? I don't think so.

They show ones that go along with it and are in on it to fulfil the image, to convince you that it's 100% Snared Celebs. I just don't think it is. As for not taking credit? That's the flaw in my wonderful plan! No, I don't know - maybe it's self-deflation? Fuck, I keep a weblog and undoubtedly make sage pronouncements that make me look like a tool to the world at large - but it doesn't stop me doing it. Perhaps it's a little like that. Over-simplified, but I'd think it could be the case.

And... yeah. I was pretty underwhelmed by it, I guess. Some parts seemed to be poor revue skits - in the case of the special, I think they plumped for paedophilia because it's a big target, and will guarantee coverage and outcry - and also will allow easy jokes/writing under the wire a lot more readily. I was expecting a bit more, I think, from all the talking-up that Chris Morris has received.

I did like the man dressed as a school, though.

Still, I'll watch any others that come along. The method of manufacture doesn't really dictate whether I laugh or not, at the end of the day.
 
 
Ellis
09:50 / 27.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
I particularly liked the opening segment with Gary Lineker warning against paedophiles 'trying to get inside' photographs, and Chris Rock smelling a computer keyboard.

"Phwoa! I feel more suggestible already!"

That was Richard Blackward you uncool person you!

(thats what I mean, he had to be in on it! no one is possibly that dumb!)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:50 / 27.07.01
NONE of them are in on it - that's the fucking point! Gah. This isn't some cosy entertainment Ali G style faux-ironic "look I can laugh at myself" thing - these people are STUPID, STUPID idiots who are being shown to be STUPID, STUPID idiots.

<deep breaths>

I thought it was genius. Chris Morris is the ONLY person working in the UK media today who deserves to be called a "satirist". We should all e-mail the outraged Sun at talkback@the-sun.co.uk and tell them how good we thought it was.

Apart from those of you who didn't.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:50 / 27.07.01
Oh - and knowing someone who used to work with Richard Blackwood, yes, he is that dumb, apparently. Like you couldn't TELL that just by watching him on his fucking abortion of a show or listening to his crimes against music... Like Dr Fox's sheer inane stupidity isn't obvious from his radio and tv appearances.

My favourite has to be the journalist they got though - Nicholas Owen - because people need to be shown that, yes, well-respected journalists are usually credulous hysterical self-serving idiots too...
 
 
Opalfruit
09:50 / 27.07.01
I found myself watching faces all the way through the Paedophile show and some showed a flicker of amusement... as in hang on... but they kept going.

I agree the man disguised as the School was the best!

How in touch with technology do Celebreties keep....? it would mean paedophiles breaking into houses and tampering with the kids computers... (putting little gas release pellets or something under the keyboard) so I believe that most of them were in on the jokes... I mean HOECS... come on... surely you can't fall for such an obvious one as that.... and Nonce Sense... are they really that dense....
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:50 / 27.07.01
quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:
NONE of them are in on it - that's the fucking point!
Either that, or they've got you well and truly convinced that that's how it is. There is a chance, albeit slim, that celebrities - well, some celebrities - aren't as lack-witted as we'd believe. I think it's that fuzzy area that's being taken advantage of, for the show's benefit. Kudos to it for taking advantage - I'm just saying that there's as much foxing of the audience as there is of the on-screeners. I think it's a mix.

I'm surprised that an alternate view of things had been so vehemently decried. Around here, isn't it usually standard to question the official/widely disseminated line? That's all I suggested. Hell, if you like the show, you like it. Big whoop. I just think there's more to it than meets the eye, is all. Your mileage may vary.
 
 
Graeme McMillan
09:50 / 27.07.01
I think it was fairly obvious that some of the celebrities were reading from a script that even they had doubts about, but pressed on anyway because they had been convinced previously that it was all legit (the Richard Blackwood thing about feeling more suggestive, for example). Or maybe that's just me.

And yeah, the new episode did seem to be trying too hard, but I think there was also the fact that Chris Morris's work has moved on from the, um, "realism" of the original Brass Eye... Now, this show seemed to be more "Jam"-ish, taking things to ridiculous extremes. Sad thing is, you can still imagine ITN news being identical in about a year, can't you?
 
 
Scrubb is on a downward spiral
09:50 / 27.07.01
NONE of them are in on it - that's the fucking point!

Exactly. Yes, some of the celebs were probably the type to do a "ooh, get me being post-modernly ironic on Channel 4" (like that blonde girl who I think presents some type of TV things) on any other programme. But a documentary about nonces? Seb Coe? Phil Collins? Quite frankly m'lud, no.

And what good would it do their credibility to perform such a double bluff? In the eyes of the public you're either sick enough to be in a nonce-a-thon programme, or stoopid enough to be taken in by Chris Morris. Either way, they can't win.

I thought it was discomforting, predictive and bloody genius.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:50 / 27.07.01
I'm wewy sowwy I shouted... but I think that it's actually really important that people realise that, as Ganesh put it, getting people "in on it" really isn't how Chris Morris operates... the point is, since the original series, lots and lots of shows in which the celebrities do cooperate have come along, and these serve in part to recuperate the idea of the celebrity hoax into something that's tame and funny and makes celebrities look clever.

Whereas Brasseye isn't about that. It's not just a comedy - there's a fundamental anger bubbling away under the surface... And if you think back to the paedophile scandal of last year and the press coverage of the time, it ought to become clear that none of those celebrities would have done this for a larf - it's still too much of a tabboo subject.

Opinions of how funny it was aside, if you choose to believe that they were in on it, the whole point of the show becomes meaningless. This is not just entertainment.
 
 
Pin
09:50 / 27.07.01
So what was the Noel Edmonds thing? Why was it cut? And has Trombone been sown yet? And did it have "Grade Is A Cunt" cut out?

And if Richard Blackwood is dumb enough to feel more suggestible after sniffing a keyboard because he was told he'd feel more suggestible after sniffing a keyboard, then how is it he walks upright?
 
 
Jamieon
09:50 / 27.07.01
quote: Hmm. I just had a big conversation about this. The other person thinks I'm a fucking idiot (shut up, you in the back), though I think the show's not run exactly as has been stated. From what I've read, most of the denouncements seem to come routed via C4; that is, in releases or interviews from them. The more cynical side of me thinks that it's a well-orchestrated PR job on the public, more than the celebs. I think it's in C4's interest to play up the "we got 'em" line because it plays on the public's assumption that celebrities are all stupid and disconnected. I don't believe that they all are. Richard Briers, some of the MPs, yes. But more of the others? I don't think so.

Right, I'm putting this argument to bed. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I KNOW A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO'VE WORKED ON EVERYTHING MORRIS HAS EVER DONE. So, if I tell you that NONE of the celebrities are in on it, will that stop this endless speculation.

Also: My Mother is an exec at Channel 4 and handles all the financing for the programme. She's just spent the past month working very, very closely with the commisioning editors in order to get to get this show aired with the minimum of fuss (which, by the way was a nightmare for all concerned 'cause Morris went waaay over budget and, as someone stated above, Collin's threatened to sue). Now, she's a Channel 4 exec, and, after all the hassle she's been through with this show, I think she'd give you a very funny look if you told her you thought it was all a put on orchestrated by the company's PR division.

There really aren't that many conspiracies organized by TV companies to dupe the general public. Most people in the industry are just boring, normal sods who've got enough to worry about without hatching grand masterplans......

This idea is just us/them mentality at it's most ridiculous.

[ 27-07-2001: Message edited by: Jamieon ]
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
10:29 / 27.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Jamieon:
So, if I tell you that NONE of the celebrities are in on it, will that stop this endless speculation.
Probably not. As I say, it's largely the words of C4 and those involved with making the show that you're citing. And I tend to regard that with some suspicion. That's all. If I'm wrong, them I'm wrong, and you can be satisfied with knowing you're right. But I'm still going to be suspicious.

Flyboy: how's it _not just entertainment_? I thought that's precisely what it was. Slightly more focused than yer usual round of sketch gags, but entertainment nonetheless. If it made people uncomfortable, or made them question the media/etc, then that's good - but surely the station's basis is to provide entertainment for the viewers?

The anger that's meant to be bubbling away under the surface seemed to be lacking teeth, pretty much. I wasn't roused by the show, and thought, as I've said, that the repeat episode was far edgier than the newer iteration.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
10:46 / 27.07.01
Pin- The paedophile special was Trombone, it just had that working title to try and disguise that it was a BE special while they were making it. I felt it was a bit scattergun, the Ted Maul bits were brilliant but the putting children in stadiums wasn't. And I did wonder if it was cut, because the Phil Collins bits made him look a bit foolish but he got away lightly compared to people like Gary Lineker, Dr. 'bumfluff goatee' Fox or Richard Blackwood.
 
 
Jamieon
10:57 / 27.07.01
For fuck's sake.

All the people I'm quoting are VERY, VERY close friends of mine. One of them acts pretty much like an uncle, one I grew up with and one is my mother! Christ, if you knew the headache all these people have had with the legal wrangling and getting it past the censors, etc......

Do you know what a commissioning editor is, Rothkoid? They're the people who choose when and where programmes are scheduled to air, and they've been shitting it about Brasseye.

Okay, if you can't apply Occam's razor and opt for the simple, elegant, logical solution - that being: the person who knows a bunch of people behind the show might actually know something about whether or not it's a hoax - then it's impossible to argue with you, and I give up.

I can't prove to you we don't live in the Matrix if you believe it hard enough. There's no proof, is there?

Jesus......
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
11:17 / 27.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Jamieon:
Do you know what a commissioning editor is, Rothkoid?
Yes, I do. Meaning?

Look. I have my view, you have yours. I've messaged you about it, but I reserve the right to take your views - as I know you about as well as you know me - with a grain of salt. So, to a certain extent, you don't figure in how I think the show works. I think there's some level of collusion, you don't. End of it.
 
 
Fengs for the Memory
11:22 / 27.07.01
BINGO!
 
 
Tom Coates
11:26 / 27.07.01
OK. I *SO* didn't call you a bloody idiot, by ANY stretch of the imagination, but that's not the point, really. It just seems REALLY implausible to me. I can't see what on earth the celebs would get out of it. That's all.

But I'm here to talk abuot this bit:

quote: ]Flyboy: how's it _not just entertainment_? I thought that's precisely what it was. Slightly more focused than yer usual round of sketch gags, but entertainment nonetheless. If it made people uncomfortable, or made them question the media/etc, then that's good - but surely the station's basis is to provide entertainment for the viewers?

I'm slightly weirded out and horrified by this statement. Because in a sense, doesn't it mean that there really isn't any space for any criticism, satire or intelligent commentary that isn't first and foremost an entertainment product?

I mean, I've blocked this through a bit in my head and it seems to me that the first obligation of any TV station is ratings. If all other things are equal, then ratings equal advertising revenue and therefore that's got to be the bottom line. After that comes public sector obligations and responsibilities as defined by government - art / commentary / news etc. Clearly some kind of balance has to be struck there between what is the MOST populist and what is the BEST public service programming.

But having said that, documentaries can be fascinating, and isn't fascination a form of entertainment? And we all know that particularly in the US the news is very MUCH a ratings winner/loser and that it is structured much more in that way than our news is. Or is it? Is it instead just that we EXPECT our news to be 'differently' entertaining, in that it fulfills our expectations of what news is supposed to be about.

I'm really torn here. But I suppose I'm going to come down in the middle somewhere. I think it HAS to be possible to have a show that's entertaining and a show that's subversive in the same package. I think it HAS to be possible to be informative, intelligent and a ratings winner without appealing to our basest instincts.

So I'm going to stick my neck out and say that whether or not I think that Brass Eye has been totally successful in the past, and whether or not I personally though much of yesterday's program, I am delighted that it's on precisely BECAUSE I don't think it is purely entertainment...
 
 
uncle retrospective
11:30 / 27.07.01
In some related news, the TV station I work for had a slight problem during the late news last night.

Someone had decided to use one of the channel assigns that are used for live reporting so they could tape a show on another channel.

Yes, during the news on TV3 last night there was 10 seconds of brasseye on the news.
Someone is in trouble.

and it's not me for a change!
 
 
Scrubb is on a downward spiral
11:38 / 27.07.01
As a slight addendum to the debate; from The Sun's website comments page:

I am writing this in absolute disgust, is anyone watching Brass eye special? Only one word can describe it and that is SICK. Do they have no respect for child sex abuse victims? I was disgusted to see Gary Lineker take part in this appalling programme, as a father and role model to young children shouldn't he have more sense than to get involved in something like this. He is just making light of a very very serious issue.

It does seem to have twisted back round on itself. Comments? How does this fit in with the "the celebs did/didn't know what they were doing" thing?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:58 / 27.07.01
It's precisely because of the watered-down versions of this kind of thing - people have got used to The Ali G Show and Mrs Merton and all that cosy cosy colluding celebrities-are-so-wacky crap, that their first reaction is to assume the celebrities are in on it - the idea of a TV programme being cruel or nasty to celebrities has become such a disturbingly absent phenomenon these days that they just don't imagine for a moment that it might have happened.

Which is just one of many reasons why Brasseye is Important and Not Just Entertainment, and it worries me no end that it could be mistaken as such. I'm not so naive to believe that (as I think I did immediately after first watching, say, the 'Drugs' episode) showing this programme to everyone in the world would make them rethink their attitude to the news, and celebrities endorsing causes, and the way the media tells us what to think... but I think its combination of incisive points and bitterly funny humour has articulated for many people the disgust they feel for things like 'Tonight With Trevor MacDonald'. For a start.
 
  

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