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Batman: The Dark Knight

 
  

Page: 1 ... 34567(8)

 
 
Jackie Susann
00:00 / 15.08.08
I dunno, I kind of feel like people talk about how great this movie is, and then if you point out a plothole or a problem with the structure or a really dumb moment or whatever, they go, "Yeah, but that's just a convention of the genre." Maybe I just don't like superhero movies, or maybe the genre is actually just stupid? I don't mean this, I just mean I don't think it's really the get-out-of-jail-free card people seem to use it as.

It's not that I think a movie can't be shiny, and still deal with serious themes. Some musicals - West Side Story or Cabaret, say - do it brilliantly. This one just struck me as putting up these kind of signs of Seriousness, but not doing any of the thematic work to justify them. It keeps falling back on OH MY GOD EXPLOSION!!! Like, it was a fun action movie that kept getting dragged down by its hamfisted self-importance.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:15 / 15.08.08
You're really not alone in your assessment, Jackie. I felt much the same way about a lot of it.
 
 
Thorn Davis
08:33 / 15.08.08
I dunno, I kind of feel like people talk about how great this movie is, and then if you point out a plothole or a problem with the structure or a really dumb moment or whatever, they go, "Yeah, but that's just a convention of the genre."

That's not exactly how it went. You seemed to have a particular problem with the Skyhook as a dumb moment that collapsed suspension of disbelief for you, but it's an actual extraction technique used as recently as 2001. It's not just plausible in an action movie way, it's been used successfully for about 30 years.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:51 / 15.08.08
I think "skyhook in a skyscraper-heavy, built-up area" is testing the willing suspension of disbelief to an extent (Although Lau's office was pretty high up, on the plus side), along with "skyhook being picked up by twin-prop aircraft flying unlicensed over central Hong Kong without fighters being scrambled" - but, you know, car which when wrecked transforms into a bike is sillier. I think one has to accept that Batman has a basically magical relationship with all forms of technology, just as John McClean, say, has a magical relationship to all forms of explosion - they will resolve in his favour, even when it is patently impossible that they should do so.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:30 / 15.08.08
Yup - just as with J. Bond and J. Bourne (as mentioned earlier here). The Bond0-related stuff was quite evident here, with M. Freeman as Q., in addition to the skyhook stunt.
 
 
penitentvandal
16:04 / 15.08.08
A Nolan directed Knightfall with either of those villains as centerpiece, with a Talia/Ra's/League of Shadow spin on it, and with Bruce Wayne the victor in the end, would roxxor my world.

I think so too. Not so much for Bane, as for Azbats. It would be easy enough to introduce him, too. The League of Shadows were smart, well-resourced, and well-versed in skullduggery - obviously they had sleeper agents standing by to mount werewolf resistance if their plan to destroy Gotham went awry. Jean Paul Valley can be one of those - so can whoever becomes Bane (who will of course get his venom from Scarecrow, thus allowing us more chances to see Cillian's lovely face). Early on, Bane-to-be kills people, because of his LOS programming, while Batman sees JPV manage to resist it - leading him to recruit him as an ally who is, and I can't emphasis this enough, NOT ROBIN. Of course the twist is that after Bane breaks Bruce, and Azbats starts going mental (complete with Qui-Gon style hallucinations of Ra's al-Ghul giving him orders), Jean-Paul actually does kill Bane, which leads Bruce to realise that he has to take him down - with the training and assistance of Talia, say, rather than Lady Shiva (obviously Bruce's back will be healed using secret league-of-shadows type healing secrets and/or martial arts torture training fetish shit, rather than that BS with Dr Kinsolving's bro and his death-ray mind magic).

Why I think this is a good idea:

(a) it refers back directly to the first movie, a good feature in a closed trilogy;

(b) it allows for another villain who provides a conceptual, rather than just physical, threat to the Batman;

(c) it'll be quite a busy movie, plot-wise, but so is TDK, so I'm quite sure Nolan could pull this off with amazing pace, and;

(d) imagine what Nolan could do with the fantastic final scene of Knightfall - Batman, a hero who personifies darkness, walking back towards Wayne Manor in the first rays of a new day's sun.

But obviously, you know, the third film will be Bats versus Catwoman and the Riddler, played by Reese Witherspoon and Jack Black. But that will still be fine because Nolan will be directing it.
 
 
Jackie Susann
03:41 / 16.08.08
I was just using the skyhook as an example - and are you serious? Surely it would just rip your arm out of the socket? - it's the logical and psychological problems that invoke my disbelief, much more than the techno ones. Ridiculous stuff like the prisoner's dilemma deal on the boats. Why don't they blow each other up? So we can have an implausible happy ending to some contrived drama. Maybe that's where the disconnect is, for me - if some things just turn out happily for no reason, then I am extra annoyed by the pointless sadism of, i.e., blowing up your only female character.

I'm perfectly happy to accept Batman has magically useful technology at his disposal. I just think once you go there, you can't expect me to invest too much in the Weighty Themes Of Your Movie. I mean, I love Die Hard, but it would suck if the terrorists were supposed to embody some half-baked philosophy of society, and McClean was supposed to pose important questions about what it means to be a hero, and it was all resolved in a ponderous final monologue from his copy buddy.
 
 
deja_vroom
12:09 / 16.08.08
I just think once you go there, you can't expect me to invest too much in the Weighty Themes Of Your Movie.

Luckily, as an Adam West's Batman fan you already have your movie to go back to and watch, with no worries about heterogeneous ridiculousness, since Adam West's Batman is wholly, homogeneously ridiculous...
 
 
deja_vroom
13:51 / 16.08.08
I mean, excuse me for blowing your mind, but your feelings are shared with a lot of people, myself included. It's just really simple: To some of us there are more important things to consider. In the end, stepping over the incongruencies or pretending that Batman has magic connection with technology amounts to pretty much the same - willful suspension of disbelief. I insist that's a matter of affective election - we all put up with faults in friends we love, why not extend this trait to characters you love? I was not expecting a to have a Revelation watching the Batman film, but I wanted to recognize that friend, and yeeeah, he changed a bit but there's more than enough of him in it to make it work. Again I insist, for a Batman fan. You certainly ain't coming from the same background of... devotion that certain people, the hardcore, somewhat arrested geek crowd - psychologically pretty much akin to those crazy geek jews that created the super-hero genre all those years ago - are coming. Your favorite Batman is the camp version, so to me everything clicks about why you didn't like the movie. The 60's TV Show is funny, has great dialogue, but it's not where the heart of the character is (incidentally, I heard the Bourne movies deliver good stuff if what you're after is realistic (as it can get in a movie) action and stunts; I can't say, I never seen them, so maybe someone who's seen them can attest to that).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:09 / 16.08.08
It's not exactly your epic flame-out over The Passion of the Christ, Jade, but have you considered maybe rallying the odd social nicety? Really, it wouldn't hurt anyone.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:29 / 16.08.08
You certainly ain't coming from the same background of... devotion that certain people, the hardcore, somewhat arrested geek crowd - psychologically pretty much akin to those crazy geek jews that created the super-hero genre all those years ago - are coming.

I'm confused. Are you saying if we don't like Teh Darque Kuhnight, we are somehow lost, empty fools who do not understand or hold the proper levels of devotion to be expected from fanchildren?

I'm also confused why rejection of Te hDar KKnight equals approval of only the Adam West Batman. While I certainly have a love for the camp, it is not the only Batman I like.

Your ways are strange to me, and I do not support your lonely war on parkades. I see the way you leer, angrily, at ticket booths -- I can't support that. I just can't support that.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:33 / 16.08.08
As an aside about the bodysuit/armour design and the awkwardness therein -- how would people have felt had they chosen to use a cloth/tights ensemble to allow for flexibility of movement, but then used exaggerated lighting to make it less obvious or apparent that the costume was cloth? Stunt work and CGI could have been used to diminsh problems of safety, and it might have added some mystery or mystique-- as well as making it look less awkward for Batbruce to bumble around Gotham smacking things.
 
 
deja_vroom
21:55 / 16.08.08
I'm confused. Are you saying if we don't like Teh Darque Kuhnight, we are somehow lost, empty fools who do not understand or hold the proper levels of devotion to be expected from fanchildren?

Hi, Lenny. No, all I'm saying is that I think people are more willing to make allowance for silly things they wouldn't normally, if they happen to care (if they think they'll receive something else of equal or greater value)... Don't let the summer blockbuster you watched bother you with its explosions and last-second savings.

I'm also confused why rejection of Te hDar KKnight equals approval of only the Adam West Batman. While I certainly have a love for the camp, it is not the only Batman I like.

Oh, that was just what Jackie Susann said, that Adam West's Batman was her favorite.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:59 / 16.08.08
Don't let the summer blockbuster you watched bother you with its explosions and last-second savings.

That doesn't bother; I think it's more bothersome to listen to the attitude that the movie is somehow amazing or revolutionary in its approach to Batman. I'm also a little bothered by some of the design choices, simply because they don't have the elegance of some Batinterpretations.
 
 
deja_vroom
22:08 / 16.08.08
Ok, this is fantastic. And it's really a stylistic discussion (not a swift dismissal), so I can totally dig that. For instance: The other night I was watching Tim Burton's Batman, and was amazed at how much more good-looking Batman's body is; it looks more like a human body, and I have to say the legs looked fantastic. An armor makes more sense and it's more realistic, but, you know... it's touching too close to the iconography. And yes, they went for something different with the fabric of the cape this time that I think looked better in Burton's movie (even though it was reportedly groin-grabbingly heavier). I really donĀ“t like a lot of what went for Batman visually (and your point about elegance nails the problem for me), but you can imagine just how ugly this discussion would get (of course, I'd love it).
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:37 / 17.08.08
I don't think I'm explaining myself well, or maybe I'm just disqualified from discussion for insufficient Bat fandom, but it's NOT the sillinesses of this film that bother me, it's the seriousnesses. Or rather, the incongruity between the two. Last second savings and things that go boom are what I want from a summer blockbuster; what I don't want are the only female character blown up, random sadisms, and deeply half-baked philosophising. If they dropped that stuff, I would be pretty happy to overlook the structural problems and plot holes and just go WOW BATMAN KICKED HIS ASS GOOD!
 
 
Mug Chum
02:59 / 17.08.08
I think you're making yourself understood quite well, actually. It's the hostility towards detractors from the gospels of The Dark Holy Sardine that is making my head spin a bit. Scary shouts of "It puts a brooding serious frowney smile on its face!" in basements all over the internet etc.
 
 
Neon Snake
06:33 / 17.08.08
it's NOT the sillinesses of this film that bother me, it's the seriousnesses. Or rather, the incongruity between the two.

I think you've explained yourself perfectly clearly, to be honest; also I think it's the one complaint that's been levelled at the film more than any others.
I certainly felt that way about Begins, although I think Dark Knight succeeded in reining it in a lot more successfully. Maybe not 100% successfully, but near enough that I could overlook the bits that jarred up against other.
 
 
Janean Patience
19:47 / 18.08.08
Lenny: While Maggie G. was an improvement after the Katie Holmes disaster, they didn't really do anything with her but give her terrible, terrible dialogue.

The actress was an improvement, but I'm not sure the role was. Katie at least represented something; the bright hope for Gotham, a future of solutions through law rather than the gun and the fist and the Batarang. A role that's pretty obviously taken by Harvey Dent in this one, so she does double-duty love interest and does what women always do in superfilms: gets captured. Thrown off buildings and then blown up. I admit I didn't see her death coming but there was nothing else for her to do but heighten the threat anyway.

(A particular problem in Spider-Man movies. Peter goes to such trouble to protect his secret identity, but every single time his enemies capture or endanger his girlfriend or family. Why bother keeping the mask?)

I didn't enjoy the first hour or so of the film much. The Joker bits were good, but not good enough to redeem a runthrough of Batman Begins, blue light, car parks, cities. Even the big chase was frictionless. But once Ledger's Joker was caught I got interested. The performance was great and the film suddenly brought alive that squirming confluence of opposites in the relationship between Joker and Batman, the feeling that whatever the Bat does he can't hurt his enemy, and his enemy can effortlessly hurt him. And yeah, the hospital, the nurse outfit, etcetera.

My problem with both these movies has been Batman. Maybe it's the excising of the detective aspect of the character, because he's all technology now, but there's nothing to Batman. Bruce Wayne is a joke, a mask, and Batman is a hollow suit with a deep voice and these wonderful toys. There's no sense of a person; no there, there. Bale himself seems hollow. It's all done by machines.

I think Haus said somewhere that the shaky fight-cam is a necessity when you've got thugs with pool cures attacking a man in armour. And suddenly that seems very Adam West - a quick tilt of the camera and an exciting noise to distract you from the inaction on screen. ZAP! POW!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:29 / 19.08.08
So I saw this last night, my interest sparked by the, I suppose, review over at Lenin's Tomb:

The Dark Knight is the most obviously fascist of the (recent superhero) films. The billionaire playboy with a penchant for sadistic violence is back in action against the Joker, a criminally insane "terrorist madman" who issues demands in shaky-looking videos, which the weak-minded populace is often inclined to give in to. The Joker, of course, has no motives. He is just an Iago-like malevolence, pure vindictive chaos, who can no more be reasoned with than he can be bribed or bullied. As Alfred remarks, regaling Master Wayne with a tale of his colonial exploits in Burma, "Some men don't want anything logical like money. Some men just want to watch the world burn." And so it transpires: the Joker is a purveyor of purposeless, chaotic violence, who ends by placing a massive bet on the sociological assumption that most people are at root as viciously indifferent to other human beings as he is. The Batman's counter-bet is that people are as devoted to order, authority and hierarchy as he is. The bad guys are an assortment of freaks, black gangsters, Russian gangsters, mobsters and crooked Chinese businessmen. The good guys are, with the exception of a single side-kick played by Morgan Freeman, uptight bourgeois white Americans, and the most virtuous of them all is the blonde hero with a chin like a body-builder's arse, the District Attorney Harvey Dent. Elected on the slogan 'I Believe in Harvey Dent', he is the hallowed Great White Hope of the film, a potential legit successor to the Batman's subterranean campaign of terror. Dent's crusade against crime is on the legal side, but just because he is a pious public servant doesn't mean he doesn't sympathise with the aristocratic vigilante. After all, as he remarks, when the barbarians were at the gates of Rome, they suspended democracy and appointed a Caesar to protect the population. (These pompous jerks do love their classical metaphors). In fact, that part of Gotham's police department which isn't bought off by the Joker relies on the violent, lone storm-trooper to break legs, smash faces and torture on their behalf. And the Batman, with the enormous resources at his disposal, doesn't shrink from breaking international law to abduct a robotic Chinese criminal (because "the Chinese will never extradite one of their own"), or from erecting a colossal apparatus of surveillance which makes Bush's extensive illegal wiretapping look decidedly unimpressive, the better to catch the evil one. In protecting the population, he and the police confect serial lies and myths for public consumption - the 'noble lie', that is, which the masses need to sustain their morale. This struggle is not a collective one, after all, and the few members of the public who do try to 'copycat' Batman's antics end up being butchered.

The Batman is a man of steel, unlike Bruce Wayne, who is merely super-hunky and dashing. He has no limits, and can survive flesh wounds, stabbing, crashes, and falls from a great height, without putting a dent in his schedule. He moves with a fluidity and speed that must make him the envy of the Parkour kids, appearing out of nowhere, and disappearing noiselessly. His ferocious masculine growl is an exaggerated imitation of Dirty Harry. He is the ruthless, overbearing superego of Gotham city, animated not by compassion or solidarity but by an obsessive conscience. "The most urgent task of the man of steel," Klaus Theweleit argued, "is to pursue, to dam in, and to subdue any force that threatens to transform him back into the horribly disorganized jumble of flesh, hair, skin, bones, intestines and feelings that calls itself human." People turn to men of steel in order to restore the imperilled fantasy of immortality, by ensuring that it is others who die. But the men of steel, whatever their protests to the contrary, do not desire an end to the chaos and destruction. They adore it, and are lost without it. If Bruce Wayne no longer had his epic fight against mega-crime, he might have to deal with picket lines at his company gates, people trying to 'redistribute' his wealth, immigrant workers becoming politically assertive, public prosecutors bashing on his doors to investigate his environmental or labour code violations, all of that petty stuff that real-life CEOs have to deal with. His romantic interests might realise that he was unworthy of love too, and anyone unfortunate enough to marry him would discover a controlling personality given to violent rages, a megalomaniac who spies on her every move through his system of cameras and hidden mics. And what's with all the secret chambers and torture equipment? He might even prove to be rather dim, bigoted and narcissistic, a more handsome version of Donald Trump. As for Harvey Dent, his 'idealism' would prove to be as tyrannical as it is selective. He would be rounding up petty drug offenders and shoplifters, 'cleaning the streets' of prostitutes and undesirables, jailing the homeless, going after the damned radicals and peaceniks.


It was still a good action film, and I liked the things blowing up and the car chases, and the monsters, and so on. It looked really good, especially the shots of the cities on the Imax where I watched it. I had fun all the way through.

I did enjoy the Joker's 'Why so serious?' line, in as much as the political and philosophical justifications of or angsting about Batman by himself and others are as ridiculous as the mass explosions, bikes that pop out of cars, the monsters et cetera.

They simply don't hold up to any real-world standards - the bat tech has nothing to do with any real experience of weapons technology anyone is having today, the baddies are nothing like real criminals, and the idea that perhaps, in these dark times, we need a superhero willing to take away some of our freedoms to protect us, and so on, is predicated on pure balls.

Which is not so much me ripping the film as something I find interesting, how, while the fantasy of bikes popping out of cars et al strikes one as fantasy (but fantasy which one is accepting of because that's how films work), the psychology, the philosophy, the politics, don't at all; and one doesn't realise at first sight that to accept them is to accept equally ridiculous fantasy - simply because they come with little tags saying that they're real and gritty.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:54 / 19.08.08
I find interesting, how, while the fantasy of bikes popping out of cars et al strikes one as fantasy (but fantasy which one is accepting of because that's how films work), the psychology, the philosophy, the politics, don't at all.

Maybe they do, to some people. Even in this board.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:57 / 19.08.08
Well yeah, I mean for me to say all that stuff means seeing it for what it is, and i'm sure everyone else can too, it's just the way it takes longer to see that.
 
 
The Natural Way
19:49 / 19.08.08
I don't understand how the chase scene was frictionless. There was no music to smooth out the action, hardly any obvious shiny CG and very little showing off for the sake of it. I actually thought it was a peerless example of how an action scene should be done.

The chase in Indiana Jones, the brontosaurus chase in King Kong - now they were frictionless.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:38 / 19.08.08
The chase sequence was a little all over the place for me -- it was one of the few moments where I could get behind the aesthetic of the film's take on the Joker, riding around on his big truck with "sLaughter is the best medicine" painted on the side.

But then there was the stupid bat-bike which appeared to be made out of lego, and that pointless game of chicken Batman and Joker play on the street -- that's where it fell down for me, because all of a sudden Ledger's Joker didn't seem like he was supposed to be in a movie with a car chase in it, and Bale's Batman was in that moment an action figure on a special plastic vehicle. That sequence felt dissonant, awkward, and highlighted why the movie never really worked for me; in the end you have the Joker on once side as this black hole of psychological portraiture and on the other you have Batman, who's reduced to an action figure with goofy power action modes when they bother to include him on screen at all. There was no smooth reflection between the two, no mirroring, nothing. That moment during the car chase really pushed it at me, even while the logistics (although, again, who leaves their kids out in the car at night in Gotham) might be reasonable as Hollywood car chases go.
 
 
Thorn Davis
08:20 / 20.08.08
So I saw this last night, my interest sparked by the, I suppose, review over at Lenin's Tomb

I've seen similar criticisms posted a few times. While I agree that Dent, Gordon and Batman employ facist 'War On Terror' tactics in their pursuit of the Joker, I don't know if the film itself endorses them. Every step towards this Bush era facism plunges the characters and the city further into chaos. The kidnapping of Lau, for example, looks like it's working in the short term (as these measures often do) but it has catastrophic consequences: it's what enables the Joker to take control of the city from the mob and sets up the disasters of the final act. Batman's punishing brutality is transmuted into frustrated impotence in the interrogation scene and Harvey Dent's complicity in these tactics leads directly to his becoming a villainous monstrosity. Even the cell-phone surveillance winds up distracting Batman from the higher-stakes 'battle for Gotham's soul' where Harvey Dent sets about demolishing his own reputation and undoing any good he might have been able to enact.

It's interesting that that review references Dirty Harry, because that's another character who seems to have become an poster boy for the joys of facism but - in the first Harry movie - isn't really someone you find yourself drawn to. He's frequently incompetent and despite his insistence that his way is the best, he properly fucks up a few times: his behaviour at the stadium buts the murderer back on the streets. Later films turn him into an all-conquering powerhouse but watching Dirty Harry you'd be hard pressed to argue that the film was presenting his methods as The Answer.

I think the same is true of The Dark Knight. The actions of the DA, the vigilante and the commisioner are continuously shown to be colossal misjudgements, just pissing fuel on the fire to the point where the final scene is the three of them standing around saying "yeah, we done fucked up" (I think the actual line is 'point the gun at the people who are to blame'). So while I agree with most of what that review says I think it stops short of asking exactly where the actions of the characters get them, whether the film really portrays their methods as successful because in my eyes The Dark Knight shows them losing big time.

The only place where this becomes muddled is in Gordon's final monologue, though that seemed tacked on to me, on the grounds that a summer blockbuster has to offer some smidgen of positivity. Gordon has to lay it on pretty thick, because the content of the speech is pretty much at odds with what we've seen happen for the last 2 1/2 hours, which perhaps is why it's so jarring.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:49 / 20.08.08
But then there was the stupid bat-bike which appeared to be made out of lego

And whaddya know ...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:02 / 20.08.08
Lego Batman emotes more convincingly than Bale managed to.
 
 
Char Aina
16:10 / 20.08.08
There's a fan-build of the 'bat-pod' as well:



 
 
Char Aina
16:25 / 20.08.08
watching Dirty Harry you'd be hard pressed to argue that the film was presenting his methods as The Answer.

I think Clint Eastwood has suggested that it was, hasn't he? There was a piece in the Independent fairly recently that asked Clint about the whole 'Spike Lee should shut his face' thing where he talked about Dirty Harry being a reaction to those goddamn liberals. I can't find that, but I can find him in the guardian saying it was a reaction to PC:

"Of course people built a lot of connotations into the film that weren't necessarily there." Eastwood grins. "Being a contrary sort of person, I figured there had been enough politically correct crap going around. The police were not held in great favour particularly, the Miranda decisions had come down [forcing police to read arrested suspects their rights], people were thinking about the plight of the accused. I thought, 'Let's do a picture about the plight of the victim.'"

And then later in that artcile, on a another film:

There are actually echoes of Dirty Harry in Changeling, Eastwood says, and he's not making any concessions to liberals: "I get a kick out of it because the judge convicts the killer to two years in solitary confinement, and then to be hanged. In 1928 they said: 'You can spend two years thinking about it and then we're going to kill you.' Nowadays they're sitting there worrying about how putting a needle in is a cruel and unusual punishment, the same needle you would have if you had a blood test."

I'm not sure Dirty Harry was meant to show the flaws of summary justice, but I guess you'd really have to ask Don Siegel or Harry and Rita Fink to get a full picture.
 
 
Triplets
16:49 / 20.08.08
Early on, Bane-to-be kills people, because of his LOS programming, while Batman sees JPV manage to resist it - leading him to recruit him as an ally who is, and I can't emphasis this enough, NOT ROBIN.

Hello! While it was a good post with cool ideas we already have a thread for Batman and NOT Robin!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:27 / 23.08.08
K-Punk has some interesting things on this too:

REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE
(CONTAINS DARK KNIGHT SPOILERS)



Andrew Klaven: Why is it ... that left-wingers feel free to make their films direct and realistic, whereas Hollywood conservatives have to put on a mask in order to speak what they know to be the truth?
Zizek: What I despise in America is the studio actors [sic] logic, as if there is something good in self expression: do not be oppressed, open yourself, even if you shout and kick the others, everything in order to express and liberate yourself. This stupid idea, that behind the mask there is some truth. .... Surfaces do matter. If you disturb the surfaces you may lose a lot more than you account. You shouldn't play with rituals. Masks are never simply mere masks.

There are many symptomatically interesting things about the right wing attempts to appropriate The Dark Knight that are doing the rounds at the moment. The idea is that the Batman of the film equals Bush - a misunderstood hero prepared to make 'tough choices' in order to protect an ungrateful population from threats it is too ethically enfeebled to confront.

In a couple of intricately argued posts, Inspersal demonstrates that The Dark Knight by no means presents 'tough choices' as 'hard but necessary'; on the contrary, whenever Batman resorts to torture, it either yields nothing or is counterproductive. What neocon readings of the film must overlook is that this is exactly the same in geopolitical reality: far from being unpalatable but necessary, the Iraq misadventure, Guantanamo Bay, extraordinary rendition etc have either achieved no results or made things worse. What's interesting here is the doggedness of the neocon fantasy, which is precisely a fantasy of 'being realistic' - astonishingly, elements of the American right appear to actually still believe that the Bush admininstration's policies are successful, and that the American public has rejected them on the grounds of highminded (liberal) ethical qualms rather than for pragmatic-utilitarian reasons (too many of our boys being killed).

Secondly, what these readings also miss is the actual nature of the model of virtue presented in the film. If this is (neo)conservative, it is not at the simple level of utilitarian calculation of consequences. What we are dealing with is a far more complicated Straussian meta-utilitarianism whose cynical reasoning is akin to that of Dostoyevsky's Grand Inquisitor. Deception - of the masses by the elite - is integral to this account of virtue: what is 'protected' is not the masses' security but their belief (in Harvey Dent's campaign).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:23 / 05.01.09
AGES after everyone else, I finally got round to seeing it. And, what with my spoiler-hatred, I haven't read this thread. I thought I'd post my initial drunken thoughts, untainted by anything else, and then read the thread and post some more. And imagine that there are enough people left on Barbelith that it might be worth it.

I kind of liked it a lot. Ledger was great- from what I'd read in the papers and elsewhere I was expecting something that would chill me to the core, and I didn't get that, so, hyperbole aside, I think he was the best Joker I've seen.

Batman's voice is STILL as ludicrous as it was in "...Begins"... look, I KNOW it's supposed to sound sinister and nothing like Bruce Wayne's, but for f***'s sake... IT'S JUST SILLY!!! It spoils every scene he's in, and that's really not something you want from your main guy.

All the action movie elements were there, and the suspension of disbelief thing...

(Okay, I did SKIM some of the thread, and the whole "the only female character gets killed" thing is a valid point... though I'd say "character" was stretching it a bit- she was essentially there so her death could provide a reason for the last 45 minutes of the movie to happen... which, essentially means there were NO female characters at all... which is clearly not right, and I'll try to come back to it, if there's still anyone on Barbelith who hasn't fucked off to a majykk board or LJ by the time I remember to do so, but in the meantime I shall soldier on).

Essentially, as far as Batman movies go, unless they can come up wuth a good reason why The Joker's actually dead and Two-Face actually ISN'T, they have problems.

I thought Two-Face was excellent; pretty much as good as The Joker, to be honest.
 
  

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