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Batman: The Dark Knight

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
10:22 / 12.08.08
Threequel speculation aplenty below, but I just want to lend my full-throated support for this.

Tick, I think you need to face the fact that your "own personal aesthetic values" are just that.

Absolutely! What kind of piece of filth applies their aesthetic values to a process involving sitting down and watching and hearing things for two and a half hours, and then feels entitled to share them as a valid thing to bring to a discussion of that experience. Tickspeak, I am going to have you banned, if it is literally the last thing I do. If I have to crawl to San Francisco on my stumps, I WILL DO IT. There is no place for scum like you on this message board.


Anyway, Policy for that. I saw the film, finally, at the IMAX, which is probably the best way to see it. The IMAX is, it turns out, so powerfully hypnotic that the trailers got me thinking "Holy God! I need to see "Watchmen" at the IMAX. It looks Timmy Terrific".

That said, I enjoyed TDK very much. It was a good action movie and a very good superhero movie. I was impressed that it managed to last two and a half hours without losing my interest, or feeling overlong. The shot design was largely very good - the fight scenes are jerkily cut, which is irritating, but I think that's a directorial decision to mark out the Wu Shuish League of Assassins stuff from the clubbing brutality of a man in an armoured suit fighting bar-room brawlers. The central performances were all strong, but - whisper it - I thought that although Ledger did what he did very well he didn't have an awful lot to do, apart from the game of chicken. There's no there there in the performance of the Joker - and yes, fractal personality, Clown at Midnight fishcakes. Oldman and, surprisingly, Caine impressed me more for what they did with their roles - Oldman obviously had a lot more to get his teeth into, but he was so unexpectedly devoid of ham stuck between those teeth that I don't know whether I ought to praise him for the perforamnce or Nolan for beating it out of him.

The action sequences were superb, although with that budget I'd be slightly surprised if they weren't - in particular, the conclusion of the car/truck chase. The Hong Kong sequence was very impressive, although it felt rather BondBourne rather than Batman, as has been said. Somebody early on clearly realised that IMAX + aerial camera = money shot, and really quite a long time is spent in forward pans over Hammer Bay and Chicago.

Having said which, one thing that did fail to jar and not in a good way was how resolutely urban it was. Batman Begins, for all its confusion, did something genuinely different and explored a different part of the background material with Ra's Al-Ghul. This was a mix of cop, action and urban superhero movie tropes, which tend to share a similar set of shades.

I also felt that some iffy directorial decisions crept in - Batman's Ron Perlman impression being one, and the decision to have Harvey Dent take time out from his campaign of vengeance to handcraft a two-sided suit in order to salute the magic of Tommy Lee Jones another; it was a concession to previous iterations of the character which jarred nastily with the broadly realistic facade of the movie (more accurately, a world where the unbelievable things are supposed to be technological, whereas the psychology is realistic). It's a shame in particular because Aaron Eckart did a really good job with Dent - giving just enough of a feel of why Gordon's men might have distrusted him at Internal Affairs and of why Bruce Wayne needed so desperately to believe in him.

One theme, in fact, which I enjoyed and which seems to have garnered little attention is Bruce Wayne's status as a moral halfwit. He understands morally good action only in terms of preventing things that are illegal. He won't kill, but he will try to break up the relationship not only of a man he admires, but of a man whose cooperation and total focus he is relying on to tackle the Gotham mobs, because moving in on another man's girlfriend is not illegal, only douchey. Why didn't he do anything when Dent confessed to being Batman? You might fanwank it as being because they were always in cahoots, but I think it's more satisfying to think that it is because it isn't illegal to claim to be Batman, so there was nothing to react to. If Dent had confessed and then dropped his keks, then you would have seen some action. I think that the idea is that he has got the idea of a broader sense of moral action by the end of the film, expressed both in taking the rap for Harvey (that is, allowing the guilty not to be punished, even post mortem) and in outsourcing his moral sense to Lucius Fox with the Deus ex Nokia machine. The implication being, I think, that he was shocked into moral sense by his conviction that Rachel was going to abandon Harvey for him, and his sense of responsibility for his failure to save either Rachel or Harvey - and thus the decision by Alfie the Butler to burn the Dear Bruce letter (which, as co-watcher observed, might be considered slightly tasteless as a method of disposal given the method of her leaving, but leave it aside) was also the action that allowed Wayne to retain his ideal view of the results of moral action, despite its falsity. Bit of a subplot, but a pleasantly underplayed one.

So, yes. Great action movie, great Summer blockbuster movie, great popcorn movie, great Batman movie (up there with Batman Returns, even). Great no-qualifier movie? I didn't think so, but I did have a lot of fun.

Bane is a terrific idea for Detective. I only hope Warner Brothers kept the costume...
 
 
Neon Snake
11:01 / 12.08.08
and the decision to have Harvey Dent take time out from his campaign of vengeance to handcraft a two-sided suit in order to salute the magic of Tommy Lee Jones another

I assumed that it was the suit he was wearing when he got burned? The lefthand side looked charred to me.

That being said, now that I've had to think about it, I have no idea whether he was wearing a suit when he got burned.


I only saw this last night, and thought it was miles better than Begins; my suspension of disbelief was stretched massively in the first one when I was told that:

a) I didn't need to suspend my disbelief! We were going to see his training, his early years, and most importantly, where he got those wonderful toys!

b) But then, we're going to include a water-evaporating cannon, some kind of fear-inducing gas, and most importantly, teh kick-ass ninja death cabal who periodically cleanse the world! Suspend your disbelief, audience!

Jarred a bit, that did.

But, Dark Knight avoided that, and was more-or-less consistent in itself, in it's own world, and was all the better for it. There are bits which have already started to grate (Sweet mercy, Bale's voice...), but I suspect that the film is good enough to warrant glossing over the few errors.

I would, however, like Batman to start showing some intelligence in later films, if they get made, and not just in moral terms. He acts like muscle, the man who gets things done; most of the decisions certainly appeared to be made by Fox, Gordon or Alfred, and Batman just acted on them. I'm sure that that's not wholly the case, but was certainly the impression I walked away with.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:19 / 12.08.08
That being said, now that I've had to think about it, I have no idea whether he was wearing a suit when he got burned.

If I recall correctly, he was wearing a shirt but no jacket when he went boom - although his clothes would have been cut off him at hospital, in any case, if we're being realistic. Were they maybe supposed to be messed up when he crashed The Master's car? It was a bit too Phantom of the Paradise for me, though.
 
 
Spaniel
12:32 / 12.08.08
Haus, yeah, I understand everyone applies their own standards when assessing entertainment, but trying to construct critical arguments out of any resulting judgements can be more or less worthwhile, depending on what you want those arguments to do. I got the distinct impression that Tick was trying to tell me that TDK was fact of the world objectively shit because it went the "R & D" route, and that's just silly as far as I'm concerned.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:10 / 12.08.08
Saw this last week. I liked parts of the movie, quite enjoyed the opening bank job and the following spat with Scarecrow (although, as my friend pointed out, Batman really doesn't like parkades, and wages a lonely crusade against parkades wherever he sees them). Didn't like other whole sections, and the whole package could have used a script editor to point out where it got blatantly contradictory or awkward.

While Maggie G. was an improvement after the Katie Holmes disaster, they didn't really do anything with her but give her terrible, terrible dialogue to spout off while giving Batbruce the opportunity, as Haus points out, to be an utter douche -- behaviour which did not feel natural to the story going on, it was more like they remembered they have this love interest and, oh yeah, there was some sort of relationship they should probably make reference to from the first film. Please tell me the third movie will have a Credible Love Interest, please.

Harvey Dent -- sigh. I would have cut him being Two-Face in this movie, too many villains. I also would have been a bit more consistent about his moral stance (they kept talking about how he was so shining and bright when both Bruce and Gordon were aware of his dubious activities prior to the maiming) so that the end of movie proclamations of how he was the "best of us" didn't seem forced or out of character.

As an aside to realism, one wonders what sort of parent leaves two boys in a parked car on the dark streets of Gotham after dark with a vicious psychopath known to stalk the streets? Particularly if one lives a short distance from the main drag of the "transporting villains across town" police route. One imagines the same incompetence was what let the cops leave Joker just hanging out with no cuffs on (presumably someone on the take was involved, but the waters were a bit muddy with the line between incompetence and criminal negligence), and dubious medical care at Gotham General.

I liked the scene at the hospital between Harvey and Joker, particularly with the nurse's outfit and the difficulty with the bomb -- that felt like the Joker, like a creative, creepy Joker. Ledger did a good job throughout but I wasn't that interested in this version of the Joker -- his visuals weren't as strong as I would have hoped for, and the lipsmacking grated on my nerves as much as the Bat-Voice. It also felt a little like the film had been re-edited to emphasize him over Bale, resulting in limited Bat-screentime that made a lot of scenes with Bale seem crammed in.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:29 / 12.08.08
I got the distinct impression that Tick was trying to tell me that TDK was fact of the world objectively shit because it went the "R & D" route, and that's just silly as far as I'm concerned.

I'm pretty sure he didn't do that - ze maintained throughout that it was hir personal aesthetic standard that was the source of the objections. I think a more important question would be what ze means by "useful". I don't think it's a Tolstoy "useful" - that is, I don't think the argument is that an R&D Batman, to use your rather excellent phrase, is going to be less morally improving than an Adam West Batman, but rather that this treatment of Batman is less likely to provide a successful aesthetic result.

I'm pretty sure I disagree with this - tickspeak happens to facou a particular presentation of Batan which I don't think would work in a film like this, or rather which I think would have to result in a totally different film. Joker gas, say, wouls (a) have been a bit of a retread of the previous film's "fear gas" and (b) like the aforementioned would have been a bit silly. Batman putting a gray and back shirt on over his armour I think means Batman dressing like comics Batman classic - in a costume that appears to be a fabric bodysuit rather than a sculpted hardcase. Which I don't think would work at all, which is why not even a shot-for-shot faithful visual remake such as what we have seen of Watchmen has fabric costumes - with the technology available, the optimum (in terms of credibility and cost) way to represent with live actors the utterly regular body sculpting of a male comic book hero and the inhuman muscle definition, even at rest, they display, is to use a sculpted, rigid material (every Batman film, Daredevil, Watchmen), or to throw away the costume and kit them out in some other fashion entirely (the Punisher, The X-Men). The exceptions (The Fantastic Four, Spider-man) tend to be exceptions because they are specifically being identified as either ephebic or geeky (or both), and also because they are to some degree action-comedies (see also Sky High and, of course, The Specials, in both of which a mixture of all three approaches is used for specific effects). That's my opinion, mind. I imagine a sufficiently gifted director could manage to create a dramatically compelling and satisfying Batman film which represented the comic book look more precisely, but Nolan was clearly not aiming to get there from here and I think that decision was a good one.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:27 / 12.08.08
>> Why didn't he do anything when Dent confessed to being Batman? You might fanwank it as being because they were always in cahoots, but I think it's more satisfying to think that it is because it isn't illegal to claim to be Batman, so there was nothing to react to.

Hmmm... I read this as: If Wayne did something, or if he actually said 'No, I'm the real Batman,' he would have effectively taken himself off the board. He would render himself completely ineffective from that point on. Whoever comes forward and says "I'm Batman" goes to jail, since there is an arrest warrant out for Batman (tehcnically, right?), and then can do nothing to stop the Bad Men. I saw the film opening night, almost 3 1/2 weeks ago now, so perhaps I'm not recalling correctly - once Harvey says he's Batman, he is taken away in cuffs, right...?

Although I don't know if you meant "something" other than coming forward and admitting that he's The Bat. And I don't think there's any evidence at all that they're in cahoots since you can see in Bale's performance that he's thinking "What the hell am I going to do?? I'm in an impossible position here." Unless I'm missing/misreading Haus' point altogether.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:45 / 12.08.08
Pretty much, yes. I was referring back to an earlier fanwanking in this thread in which Dent and Batman hatch the plot together, and suggesting as a joke that the reason Wayne did not react was because he only reacts to breaking of the law and nothing else. I think it's correct that Wayne is in fact not responding because a) he can protect Harvey Dent better than Harvey Dent can protect him and b) he is utterly stunned.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:19 / 12.08.08
I was referring back to an earlier fanwanking in this thread in which Dent and Batman hatch the plot together, and suggesting as a joke that the reason Wayne did not react was because he only reacts to breaking of the law and nothing else.

The sad thing is, some days I'd almost take that joke about Wayne as being, you know, characterization. Christian Bale as Bat-Terminator, unable to overcome his "Crime Y/N?" programming. Which does double-duty for making that stupid subwoofer Bat-voice, too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:06 / 12.08.08
10 OBJECT "CRIME"
20 OBJECT=1?
30 IF YES GOTO 50
40 GOTO 10
50 GROWLY GROWLY GROWL
60 GOTO 10
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:43 / 12.08.08
I just imagined The Dark Knight as directed by Michael Bay. I'm going to go lie down now.
 
 
wicker woman
03:13 / 13.08.08
Harvey Dent -- sigh. I would have cut him being Two-Face in this movie, too many villains. I also would have been a bit more consistent about his moral stance (they kept talking about how he was so shining and bright when both Bruce and Gordon were aware of his dubious activities prior to the maiming) so that the end of movie proclamations of how he was the "best of us" didn't seem forced or out of character.

Come again? As I recall, they didn't have anything specific on Dent, they just suspected him of dirty dealing due to the overall taint on the Prosecutor's Office up to that point; suspicions that seemed to dissipate pretty quickly once Bruce and Gordon got to know him.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
04:31 / 13.08.08
I never really got the sense that his back dealings were outright disproven, more got that Bruce at least was overwhelmed by Dent's charisma (the scene in the restaurant with the Russian ballet dancer struck me as being particularly bizarre -- Bruce is utterly, utterly mesmerized). All of the talk of Dent's reputation and clean, shining soul felt like the filmmakers were telling me to think Dent was keen rather than it coming from within the character's actions. After the film my friends and I tried to come up with why exactly Dent was the "best" of the three characters, based on what Gordon says near the end -- we came up with him being blond, and that was about it. I think the film did a wonderful job of quietly setting up Gordon as the most sympathetic, genuinely positive figure, to be honest, while everyone was shouting about how awesome Dent was.

Which was done to set up his fall as Two-Face, obviously, but Two-Face as a force is late in the third act (or was that the sixth act?) and didn't really feel like a developed villain to warrant such an arc. Hopefully that means he'll be back for further development down the line, but I'm not entirely sure that justifies his presence for me.
 
 
Axolotl
09:34 / 13.08.08
I just imagined The Dark Knight as directed by Michael Bay. I'm going to go lie down now.

Have you seen the "leaked" script? It's really quite funny.
 
 
Quantum
11:58 / 13.08.08
I wonder how long this will run at the IMAX? Haus is not the only one to say it's definitely the best way to see it.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:07 / 13.08.08
Saw this at the Imax last night. Enjoyed it a lot, but I was disappointed that Nolan didn't create an opportunity for Batman to dance the Batusi at any point. It was a glaring omission that would have definitely lifted the last half hour, had they written it into the script.
 
 
X-Himy
18:45 / 13.08.08
I saw it the second time at an IMAX, and was underwhelmed by those sections. By all means, if you want to see it again, see it in IMAX. But if you have to haul out to somewhere (as I did), I didn't think the IMAX scenes were any more impressive, or took advantage of IMAX in any way.
 
 
The Natural Way
21:47 / 13.08.08
I really don't know what you're talking about.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
 
 
Spaniel
08:51 / 14.08.08
Quantum, obviously opinions on this will vary, but I can't for the life of me understand why. Having seen the movie in standard and IMAX format, I can't recommend seeing it in IMAX enough. Absolutely bloody amazing, especially when you're sitting right in the middle of the center row.
 
 
CameronStewart
13:40 / 14.08.08
Yeah, I've seen it once in standard format and once in IMAX and IMAX is unquestionably the greater experience. The IMAX scenes are truly breathtaking.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:04 / 14.08.08
I've only seen the IMAX cut - I assume the added scenes are the swirly helicopter shots of Hammer Bay and Chicago?
 
 
Quantum
15:26 / 14.08.08
obviously opinions on this will vary

Not really, except for X-Himy above *everyone* has said WATCH IT IN IMAX and some have said IMAGINE IT IN IMAX WITH THE BATUSI ENDING.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:33 / 14.08.08
it's kind of depressing that heath won't be back for another one but who knows what they can do with technology these days...

I'm sure Mr Ledger's family are taking great comfort from that even as we speak.
 
 
dark horse
16:36 / 14.08.08
well ok man you're right, they probably won't and maybe it was insensitive of me to type that, but i was talking about the batman FILMS rather than the real-life implications of heath's death because that's what this thread is about... if anyone has been offended then i apologize, obviously it goes without saying that the loss of a talented young man's life is the biggest human tragedy here...
 
 
Spaniel
17:17 / 14.08.08
Don't think there are any extra scenes, just some scenes that have been reformatted to fit conventional cinema screens.
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:04 / 14.08.08
I didn't like this as much as most people, I guess. I don't think the problem's that Batman shouldn't be gritty, but that the film can't decide if it wants to be gritty or shiny, and doesn't know how to strike a balance. It thinks it wants to be gritty and realistic, but then keeps ducking out to be a straight-up explodey action film, and that makes it hard for me to take its 'realistic' bits seriously.

Mildish spoilers below.

I mean, once Batman has escaped from seeming capture by shooting a rope onto a low-flying plane and being yanked to safety, for me, you have left the world of realism. After that, I'm just not going to take your film seriously enough to care that a character got blown up. I don't think I'm explaining myself too well, but it seemed like the movie wanted to have all this gravitas (nadir: Gordon's narration at the end) but then undermines it, for me, with ridiculously over-the-top action sequences and deux ex nokia contraptions.

Highlights were the obvious ones, though - IMAX parts, Nurse Joker.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:03 / 14.08.08
Actually, that's the Fulton recovery system. You probably wouldn't want that many skyscrapers around when you did it, but the science is perfectly sound.
 
 
deja_vroom
23:04 / 14.08.08
ridiculously over-the-top action sequences and deux ex nokia contraptions.

I take it you're not a - let's say it - "Batman fan", then?

I mean, I myself can't really understand why so many "serious" critics are fawning over this movie as if it were manna from heaven. But to a (I'm sorry) Batman fan the first and most important parameter to judge a movie about Batman is how well the essence of the character and his Universe is captured on film. That feeling of recognition you'd get so effortlessly watching Bruce Timm's animated series, for instance (By the way I think this was the best review of the movie: simple, to the point and coming from someone who understands the character).

Considerations about the feasibility of the stunts performed, when the central character is already outlandish, rings over here as missing the mark a little (as an aside, this is not to say that a Batman story needs to have plot holes and incongruence... any comic book reader here can name at least one splendid Batman story that didn't resort to truck flipping to grab his/er attention).
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:20 / 14.08.08
I take it you're not a - let's say it - "Batman fan", then?

I think I kind of am. My problem's not the ridiculousness (Adam West Batman is my favourite), it's that the movie wants to have it's ridiculous moments, but then suddenly I'm supposed to take it very seriously. Like, why should I care Maggie got blowed up? Maybe she got whisked away by an aeroplane, too.
 
 
deja_vroom
23:24 / 14.08.08
(By the way, I think this was the best review of the movie: Simple, to the point and coming from someone who understands the character).

(Minus the video clip at the end. Jesus Christ, I hadn't seen that the first time around).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:25 / 14.08.08
Well, to a Batman fan - you - that's the most important criterion. Other Batman fans may have other criteria, however one chooses to define "Batman fan". Whether or not JS so identifies, he _did_ identify as a problem that the character and the universe were not, for him, successfully captured on film - because the film did not successfully present a coherent picture of Batman or his universe, alternating between "gritty" and "shiny". Another viewer, as I did, might see that as a function of the genre, but it speaks directly to the apparent metric for the fan...
 
 
deja_vroom
23:30 / 14.08.08
Ah, the tone, yes. I'll work on that. Eventually.
 
 
dark horse
23:38 / 14.08.08
jackie, in one way i agree, there are several ways in which rachel might have survived and if you saw my link you'll see there are rumors that back that up... the point is we know that but bruce does not... we know we are watching a comicbook movie with all those conventions but batman is still "beginning".
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:38 / 14.08.08
I really can't get behind that review, Deja; it abuses me with a "Holy ___, Batman" joke and a Brokeback Mountain, Heather Ledger is teh Ghey joke at the same time!
 
 
deja_vroom
23:43 / 14.08.08
Also, I agree with you about what Jackie Susann perceived as a failure being a function of the genre. What about the "Hollywood pontification" - all that dialogue that really isn't necessary, or that's just badly done, where the theme of the movie is established plain and clear, often in a maudlin way etc? To me it's already something you accept, as one might accept the stylized conventions of kabuki, for instance (in this case, talking about a stylistic choice rather than a structural necessity, but still)...
 
  

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