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Enlightenment

 
  

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EvskiG
00:00 / 04.05.08
There is something that I think is being overlooked, however . . . . It is that there are ten stages of "enlightenment" in Buddhism.

Well, that's if you're a Mahayana Buddhist who considers the Bodhisattva Bhumis to constitute a useful model of the process of enlightenment.

I think it's an overgeneralization to suggest that all Buddhists subscribe to that model.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:38 / 04.05.08
(I don't have anything useful to add, just wanted to say that I'm really digging some of the input to this thread.)
 
 
Papess
04:41 / 05.05.08
Actually, Ev, I follow Vajrayana, which is a vehicle. I am of the Nyingmapa school. I am not certain what school of Buddhism you are referring to, however, I am referring to a model that is also used in Hinduism. Whether or not every Buddhist subscribes to that model the point is that enlightment is a process. I am not cerain what school of Buddhism disagrees with that, but the school I am taught in happens to name and define the stages within that process.
 
 
Proinsias
11:45 / 05.05.08
I think some branches of zen were under the impression that enlightenment was something that could be realized in one fell swoop, the arguments against this were that practionioners of this system often had more than one enlighhtening experience and thus were not truly enlightened the first time around. Can't recall which school although, I think, it was covered in the Suzuki talks on the the Sandokai which I'll have a leaf through when I get home.
 
 
EvskiG
11:59 / 05.05.08
Papess, you stated not only that "enlightenment is a process" but that

there are ten stages of "enlightenment" in Buddhism.

and then proceeded to list 10 stages with certain specific qualities or attributes (which I believe come from The Jewel Ornament of Liberation, a Tibetan text on the subject).

Your school may teach that, and for that matter more than one school or even vehicle of Buddhism may teach that (in fact, I think the idea came to Vajrayana Buddhism through Mahayana Buddhism), but I don't believe every Buddhist -- or even every Mahayana or Vajrayana Buddhist -- necessarily accepts that particular model.

It's a little like saying every Christian believes all of the specific points of dogma set forth in the Nicene Creed.
 
 
EvskiG
12:16 / 05.05.08
And, as Proinsias notes, the Rinzai school of Zen Buddhism seems to recognize the concept of sudden enlightenment (or sudden realization that one already is enlightened).

Plenty of Zen parables end with something along the lines of "and upon hearing this he was enlightened."
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
12:26 / 05.05.08
Going back to the idea of the "Dedicated Shopkeeper" and that embracing the "Mundane" = "Enlightenment", I'm reminded of a parable in a book I read on Jnana Yoga called "Know Thyself" which I read a long time ago:

A seeker of wisdom is walking down the road and sees his friend Mario breaking rocks on the side of the road.
"Mario, what are you doing?"
"Breaking rocks."
"Why?"
"So I can make money."
"Why do you need money?"
"To buy macaroni."
"Why do you want macaroni?"
"So I can become strong."
"Why do you wish to be strong?"
"So I can break rocks..."


After the exchange, the seeker became a bit more enlightened, but it was Mario who was the enlightened one.

The fact is that our bodies are mere machines, and we are the caretakers of these machines, trapped in a symbiotic relationship with them. This can be reward or punishment, depending on how we choose: We can become disgusted by the fact that we need to shit, or we can marvel at the wonder that our bodies can turn sustainable organic matter into energy and our very waste can become compost in which to grow said sustainable organic matter. (mind you, much of the *food* we eat does not make for good compost...)Philosophy is recognizing that we are a small part in a larger system.

There is no point in Yoga (or magick) in trying to perfect your mind without also trying* to perfect your body... We are tied into both. I'm starting to very strongly suspect that "enlightenment" is knowing and accepting this fact, and when you are not "maintaining the machine" you can joyfully explore the machine's various functions.

*There are those who due to physical disabilities are more prone or are even forced to focus on the purely mental or spiritual aspect of theit existance. I have a theory that this may traditionally be the case throughout history: (People studying shamanism please correct me if I am generalizing... I really don't wish to offend, or open too big a can of worms.) it seems that many of the medicine-people, or shamans, or magickians, were those in their tribes who were less able hunters and warriors, and were able to best serve their tribes in the ways of medicine, morale, and direction. Obviously there have been many instances of warrior-magickians, etc... but for the most part, it was the less physically apt who chose to, or were chosen to fill these roles...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:55 / 05.05.08
[OT] It's a nice theory, but not easy to substantiate. People born with congenital disabilities back when life was nasty, brutish and short often faced a terrible struggle to survive; various factors from superstition ("that's not my real baby, it's a changeling!" "this child is cursed!" etc) to a simple lack of resources (can we spare an able-bodied person to handfeed this child?) could have meant one's death.

In some cultures, of course, people showing certain talents have been deliberately disabled to force them to focus on those skills alone or simply to prevent them from leaving the community. For example, a promising musician in certain times and places might be blinded in order to free hir from distraction; in NT lore, the fabled smith Volund is hamstrung to stop him escaping and this may derive from a historical practice--a good smith might have been similarly hobbled to keep him in the village. So we can surmise that the same might be true in some cultures of people with useful magical skills.

However, it would not be true to state that across all cultures it was the less physically able who generally engaged in spiritual practices. Were this the place for lore-bashing I could go on with many examples of warrior-magicians in NT, but for now I'll just mention Odin and Egill Skallagrímsson, and give you seekers of enlightenment your thread back.[/OT]
 
 
EvskiG
14:00 / 05.05.08
The fact is that our bodies are mere machines, and we are the caretakers of these machines, trapped in a symbiotic relationship with them.

What an unpleasant way of looking at the situation!

Seems to me that, instead of looking at our bodies as machines that we are "trapped in" -- which suggests that the mind and body are two separate, distinct things -- it's more helpful, and even more accurate, to say that we ARE our bodies: our blood, our bones, our brains and nervous systems, and so forth down the line. (The fact that we're capable of perceiving, communicating, and acting beyond our own personal bodily boundaries doesn't change that.)

And our bodies are capable of wondrous things and wonderful perceptions, and a surprising amount of modification and tuning.
 
 
Papess
15:29 / 05.05.08
Papess, you stated not only that "enlightenment is a process" but that ..."there are ten stages of "enlightenment" in Buddhism".

Well yes. There are ten stages or bhumis of enlightenment in Buddhism. Whether or not one approach to Buddhism recognizes it or not does not discount that this teaching does exist.

...and then proceeded to list 10 stages with certain specific qualities or attributes (which I believe come from The Jewel Ornament of Liberation, a Tibetan text on the subject).

Wonderful text, but it is a commentary on the graduated path, not the original teaching or discovery of it.

It was "The Dashabhumikabhasya" or "Ten Stages Sutra", written by Vasubandhu sometime in the fourth century. And that was just the first time in history where the teaching of the Ten Stages, or Bhumis, was actually written down. It is not unfathomable to consider that this was an oral teaching preceding that event - as most (if not all) sutras were at one time.

Your school may teach that, and for that matter more than one school or even vehicle of Buddhism may teach that (in fact, I think the idea came to Vajrayana Buddhism through Mahayana Buddhism),

Wait, you are confused, Ev. Vajrayana, Mahayana, and Hinayana are vehicles. Vajrayana incorporates both Mahayana and Hinayana. So yes, the sutras will be the same. Each vehicle does not have separate doctrines. However, Vajrayans also incorportates the tantras, which is the same premise as the sutras, just different practices. However, Vajrayana teachings never develop from Mahayana, as you suggested. Vajrayana is a different level of teaching. The Buddha, and all proper teachers, always teach on many levels. Those whose minds can comprehend the use of a rowboat to get across the river will gravitate towards a rowboat to cross it. Others are more geared to a sailboat. Others still, will have the capacity to steer an oceanliner. No matter what the capacity of a person, each vehicle will take them to the destination. However, Vajrayana can do it in one lifetime if practiced, which is why it is definately considered to be the Oceanliner in my analogy.

...but I don't believe every Buddhist -- or even every Mahayana or Vajrayana Buddhist -- necessarily accepts that particular model.

And so what? They don't have to accept that there are mountains in China either, but there are. People can choose to believe whatever they want, it doesn't take away the actual teachings. It really is irrelevant. Even if no one believed them or followed them, that still wouldn't remove the teachings as part of the doctrine that fall under the general heading of "Buddhism". What is your point, Ev?

It's a little like saying every Christian believes all of the specific points of dogma set forth in the Nicene Creed.

See above. I never said that everyone believed it. It is however, a teraching in Buddhism. By your logic, just because some Christians choose not to believe in Nicene it makes it not part of Christianity, or somehow less valid? There is also a distinct difference between that creed and the concept of bhumis which I don't even think should be compared. Not all Buddhists do the same practices, either, but there is a difference between comparing practices with concepts between two different religons. It like comparing apples to shoes.

And, as Proinsias notes, the Rinzai school of Zen Buddhism seems to recognize the concept of sudden enlightenment (or sudden realization that one already is enlightened). Plenty of Zen parables end with something along the lines of "and upon hearing this he was enlightened."

*Sigh* Yes, this is a tricky concept. As you say the Rinzai "seem to recognize...". "Seem" is the key word, as appearances are deceiving. You are right that there are many references to what seems like an "instant enlightenment". There are a few things to consider though, which is why the "instant enlightenment" phenomenon reminds me of the "overnight success" myth.

1. What were the pre-existing conditions that made enlightenment comprehensible? What was the process that lead up to the mind being ripe enough to bear fruit - so to speak. Were there really none?

2. Does the realization have any lasting significance?

3. Is the enlightenment complete? Does this person now have complete and total enlightment as a result of just ONE single instant, as our relative cognition understands and instant to be?

Just a few questions to ponder before denouncing the bhumis as just a sentiment of only some or few Buddhists.

(or sudden realization that one already is enlightened)

Also, just saying that one is "already enlighted" is a bit of a cop-out if one still has a conditional mind. It is an excuse not to do the work and examine oneself. I admittedly use to rest my laurels on this concept. But that is all it ever was: just some intellectual concept and not an actual experience, as proper enlightenment should be. It is rather useless to say this when one's experiences don't reflect it. If that state of mind is not present in every moment, not just that one moment when one had a flash of insight, then no, you are not "Enlightened", with the capital "E". You had an enlightening experience and maybe attained a certain realization. It should be recognized as such, hence the ten bhumis, but full complete realization and enlightenment?....No way, not as a being burdened by conditions. To believe that one's moment of insight is actually Total Enlightenment is mere self-delusion.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
15:47 / 05.05.08
The word "trapped" may seem ill-advised, but I don't wish to change it just yet: For better or worse, we inhabit the bodies we have. It all boils down to how we use them, I suppose. There are certainly times that our bodies are not so wondrous. We have to take care of them first and enjoy them second. At the moment I am in pretty poor shape (I'm working on it...) and I certainly do feel "trapped" in my body sometimes.
To say we are our bodies, we are our blood doesn't seem to really capture our existence, either. That would imply that once our bodies fail, so do we. I certainly do not want "To be my body" when I'm dead and decomposing. That's why I spoke of a symbiotic existence: our awareness can be or is separate from our physical bodies.
Unless you are suggesting that we are merely synapses and chemical processes... It may very well be the case, but it doesn't feel that way...
Which, going back to topic, is why I am of the thought that the acceptance (and joyous acceptance, at that) of our physical selves is "enlightenment". I believe that I must embrace this existence of chrysalis. I have to follow and then master the physical rules set by this physical existence before I can (possibly?) "Move on". Not so much that I want to "move on", but it seems inevitable.
EV, I know you say it's a "Unpleasant way of looking at the situation", but don't you think that one must first come to terms with their reality before accepting, and then embracing or changing it?
 
 
Papess
16:13 / 05.05.08
Freektemple: I do agree with Ev on this. What you are saying is a bit "unpleasant", but also not quite right. Our bodies and our minds are not as separate as they seem. It is like compartmentalizing one's existence when you explain things the way you have.

There is no point in Yoga (or magick) in trying to perfect your mind without also trying* to perfect your body... We are tied into both. y9ou seem to get that here, but then the ideaa of being "trapped" defies this.
 
 
EvskiG
16:55 / 05.05.08
There are ten stages or bhumis of enlightenment in Buddhism. Whether or not one approach to Buddhism recognizes it or not does not discount that this teaching does exist.

Certainly the teaching exists. That doesn't necessarily mean that the ten stages exist as things in themselves, or that one accurately can say "THERE ARE ten stages of enlightenment in Buddhism.

I think a better way of putting it is "one Buddhist model considers the process of enlightenment to have 10 stages."

Wait, you are confused, Ev. Vajrayana, Mahayana, and Hinayana are vehicles. Vajrayana incorporates both Mahayana and Hinayana. So yes, the sutras will be the same. Each vehicle does not have separate doctrines.

I don't think I'm confused, and I think this is extremely questionable.

Mahayana Buddhism adds quite a bit of doctrine and dogma that isn't in Therevada Buddhism. Same for Vajrayana Buddhism.

(And, as I've mentioned to you before, calling Therevada Buddhism "Hinayana" -- the "lesser vehicle" to Mahayana's "greater vehicle" -- often is considered to be insulting, the rough equivalent of calling the Jewish scriptures the "Old Testament," and hence supplemented or superseded by the "New Testament.")

As I understand it Mahayana Buddhism generally has a much greater emphasis on the role of the Bodhisattva and, unlike Therevada Buddhism, claims that the Mahayana sutras are authentic teachings of the Buddha. Vajrayana Buddhism builds on Mahayana Buddhism and mixes in quite a few tantric/esoteric doctrines and practices.

If you want, we can discuss this in a bit of detail, although it might be best to do so in another topic.

Vajrayana teachings never develop from Mahayana, as you suggested.

While I don't have a pile of reference texts here at work, I think scholars are fairly comfortable that they did.

While Wikipedia always should be viewed with a bit of suspicion, it calls Vajrayana "thoroughly based on Mahayana."

Vajrayana is a different level of teaching.

An ocean liner as opposed to a rowboat or sailboat, you say?

Seems to me that many newer religions and religious denominations try to distinguish themselves from their predecessors by claiming that they're a different level or kind of teaching. For example: "These are the Buddha's secret teachings that he didn't transmit to the masses." Or "Jesus came to abolish the old law and bring in the new."

The fact that they make these claims, of course, doesn't mean that they're true.

but I don't believe every Buddhist -- or even every Mahayana or Vajrayana Buddhist -- necessarily accepts that particular model.

And so what? They don't have to accept that there are mountains in China either, but there are. . . . What is your point, Ev?


You do see the difference between whether there are mountains in China and whether enlightenment consists of 10 stages, don't you?

Just a few questions to ponder before denouncing the bhumis as just a sentiment of only some or few Buddhists.

Do you really see my statement that not all Buddhists accept a particular teaching as "denouncing"?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
17:05 / 05.05.08
I'm not being very eloquent, I suppose, I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words on this.
I'll try explain my current view, and how it ties into "enlightenment".
I suspect that our essence may be "immortal". Whether the semantics of spitit/soul/consiousness apply is best left for another discussion.
In very loose karmic/dharmic terms, our essence is in a constant state of growth, but must learn the lessons of whatever state it finds itself. Currently, my essence is in a physical body. My essence must animate this body, develop with this body, live love and grow with this body until that time which this body will pass.
I think that this is not lost on an "enlightened" person, and that person begins to realise that they must errect the best possible temple in which to house their essence.
This temple still has plumbing, electrical, and structural issues which, while sometimes unpleasant, must be dealt with.
Only after this physical reality is accepted, embraced, and lived through, will one's essence be prepared to move on. I'm thinking that "living in the now" and practicing on perfecting this body and mind will condition us to be prepared for whatever's next. We'll probably have to do the same in our next existances.
I still will foolishly use the word "trapped", because I'm living too much in my own mind, and not enough in my own body. Too often do I experience things "Outside" of myself: I "view" things from a perspective above and behind my physical body sometimes, usually when I'm under stress. For all that I may "understand", I still need to practice, and for all my writing of perfecting my body along with my mind, I hate to admit, I spend too much time thinking of both and doing neither.
But, that's the perspective I'm writing from, and why I love a forum which can help me evolve. Coming to accept that we must love ourselves and all the messiness that comes along with it is scary. I empathize with Darth Daddy a bit when he exclaimed "Hell No!" because many of us have been led to believe that we should be flying around, able to shoot lasers from our eyes. It's intimidating sometimes contemplating just how wonderful we are AS we are. Accepting that, and working on that isn't always easy, however necessary.
Which is why "enlightenment" is difficult: it's easy to be acedemic about it, something quite different to live it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:56 / 05.05.08
I don't really care for the "mind trapped in the body" narrative myself. I find it problematic and potentially toxic in a lot of different ways.

It's a tempting narrative: Luminous beings are we, Luke, and not this crude matter. The real me doesn't fart, overeat, need to pee in the middle of my morning meditation, trip over its shoelaces, get acne, or do any of the inconvenient things that bodies tend to do. I'm really a glowing ball of energy/wisp of cloud/dragon/elf/etc that just happens to be stuck in this carcass.

But if the body is merely a shell, this mortal coil, our "spacesuit," then it is potentially diminished, rendered unimportant. This takes us into dangerous waters. Look at the concept of "the mortification of the flesh," and all the horrible damage done in the name of preserving the immortal soul from all the naughty stuff the sinful body might get up to.

TBH I do at times experience my condition as "being trapped" in my body. It has various uncomfortable things wrong with it that I'd rather not have to deal with. There are the bad knees, the asthma, the tendency to fall over and start twitching, and the gender isn't really a good fit either.

But I don't hold with the model where there's this "real me" locked away inside the trap of my body, waiting patiently to get out. What using that model tended to mean was that I would attempt to disappear inside my own head, somewhere behind my eyes, and ignore what was going on with the rest of the system. It was only when I began to free myself from the "trapped" narrative that I was really able to explore what my body is truly capable of, to move from sedantry intellectualism or harsh, punishing ordeal work and into a healthier story where I am an integrated bodymind, where my physical state manifests in my mental state and vice-versa, and where my body and soul are integrated into a rich, fascinating spiritual instrument, something I can actively use to reach out to the Divine.

I have slowly come to believe that there is something eternal in me, something that will go on after the physical body has cashed in its chips. But this particular expression of that eternal something--that is unique, and will never come again.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
18:04 / 05.05.08
I have slowly come to believe that there is something eternal in me, something that will go on after the physical body has cashed in its chips. But this particular expression of that eternal something--that is unique, and will never come again.

That is so well put. I honestly never thought of it from that angle. It's easy to forget what vibrations or reprecussions we are able to cause with our present mind/bodies.
Thanks...
 
 
EvskiG
18:10 / 05.05.08
I have slowly come to believe that there is something eternal in me, something that will go on after the physical body has cashed in its chips.

On the other hand, I don't.

That is, other than the matter that made up my body, which will go on to other uses, my genes, which may go on to my descendants if I have them, and my actions, which to some small extent will continue to influence those I've known and the world around me.

That's enough for me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:25 / 05.05.08
Yeah, that's pretty much the model I was working on before things got all weird. And it is enough, perfectly sufficient. It just didn't fit my observed experiences very well anymore.
 
 
EvskiG
18:40 / 05.05.08
If you don't mind sharing, what observed experiences did you have that don't fit the model that physical death will be final? Or that better fit the model that something in you (other than matter, genes, actions, etc.) will go on after death?
 
 
Proinsias
18:48 / 05.05.08
I have slowly come to believe that there is something eternal in me, something that will go on after the physical body has cashed in its chips.

On the other hand, I don't.

I'm quite comfortable with the idea of not having the foggiest. It's a little like the theism vs atheism debate: maybe there is a god, maybe there isn't, maybe it depends on how you define it. I'm not going to avoid religion because I'm not sure about a god type figure and I'm not going to avoid the practices of those who 'pursue' enlightenment if I don't believe in something eternal and I'm probably going to keep reading things which tell me not to read and trying to bite my own teeth etc..

Trying not to sound dismissive but the ten steps to enlightenment sounds rather similar to my office deciding recently that there are no longer 7 steps to the perfect sale, there are now 9 - which can be condensed into three if needed, or you can just go straight for the sale and avoid all the steps if the conditions are correct.

On the other hand maybe I just need to do more, experience more and then an opinion may dawn on me.

Reading Osho recently commentating on the Gita surprised me when he was discussing acceptance of illness and suffering as part of life. I'd always been quite taken with the very taoist alchemical ideas of strengthening the body, possibly influenced by Chinese kung fu and what not. The idea was always floating around at the back of my head that if any nasty illness appeared I could become almost monk like and eat the most pure food, go hardcore with the tai chi etc and stuff would get much better. The Osho writing was a little slap in the face. You're possibly going to die a slow painful death, get over it - it might be just what you need. He couched it in more karmic terms giving the examples of people approaching high states of enlightenment having to pay huge karmic debts in very short times before fucking off nowhere/everywhere land for a bit. Long and short of it is that it has let me appreciate both sides of the imperfect body/getting ill thing even if it is only the little fracture in my foot giving me stick on occasion.

Papess: Also, just saying that one is "already enlighted" is a bit of a cop-out if one still has a conditional mind. It is an excuse not to do the work and examine oneself.

The already enlightened thing is rather useless to those who already have an interest in enlightenment and it's them who have to do the work to realise it. From what I gather it's more commonly used to describe those who are already so absorbed in life for what it is that they have no need to stray off the path into the woods to try and find the path again.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:22 / 05.05.08
what observed experiences did you have that don't fit the model that physical death will be final?

I see dead people. Walking around like regular people.

Sorry. I've then correctly identified these deceased persons, previously unknown to me, from photographs, and also I've had communications from them and found out stuff that I couldn't have known any other way. I can't get into it too much because it's family-line stuff and a bit dirty-laundry-ish.

Really wasn't expecting all that when I got into ancestor worship. I was originally parsing it as kind of like suitheism in Goth drag, but I was forced to re-evaluate. Mostly I still choose to go on as if nothing had changed; I think if you don't believe in a Hereafter of any kind, you tend to make better choices generally.
 
 
petunia
19:43 / 05.05.08
They don't have to accept that there are mountains in China either, but there are.

Papess, have you experienced these ten stages? Are you enlightened? If not, I'm not really sure how you can so boldly adhere to this idea.

As far as I was aware, Buddhism revolves around the central practice of meditation, which one could attempt to summarise as the practice of breaking through one's Mind and concepts in order to experience one's direct awareness of life as it is Now. I'm not really sure where dogma fits into this.

I'm sorry to be so blunt about this, but you're being borderline offensive with your 'oceanliner' analogy and insistence that Your version of Buddhism Knows It Best.

I'd like to ask you why you think this model of Ten stages of enlightenment is correct. I'd like to know if this is a direct experience of yours, or whether it is a teaching you have taken. I would further like to know, if it is a teaching, what makes you so sure it is correct.
 
 
EvskiG
19:51 / 05.05.08
Really.

Hate to say it, but it reminds me of a recent discussion we had round these parts about Catholicism as the one true way.

(And as for the other branch of this thread, thanks for the info, Mordant.)
 
 
Papess
19:53 / 05.05.08
And Ev, you clearly do not understand the concept of the vehicles as opposed to the schools, in Buddhism. Why anyone would be insulted because the vehicles are described in such a manner is truly advertising their capacity to begin with. It's ridiculous. If it liberates them, then what the hell difference does it make? It makes for petty distraction and missing the point. Nothing to stop anyone from choosing the Diamond vehicle - Vajrayana's proper translation. In fact, "MAHA" means great, and "HINA" means...well, do you get the picture? These aren't judgment calls. A large cup is a large cup, and a small one is small, (unless you prefer your Buddhist scriptures to be brewed by Starbucks). If you know people insulted by these terms, then they really need to examine why that is and why they feel they need to change an entire tradition to suit their pettiness and lack of understanding.

I have indulged this before with you, but the insistence that this is offensive, from you or anyone else, really shows a misunderstanding of the teachings.

The Vehicles are only different in capacity but are NOT regarded as different denominations, as you have suggested. Regardless of what the sad Wikipedia has to say, or any unaccounted for scholars, Vajrayana, Mahayana and Hinayana are about one's capacity to comprehend a teaching and these levels exists in all teachings. These divisions really don't exist except in one's own mind, which is precisely why it is an indication of one's own capacity to take issue with it.

So, to address the topic of enlightenment: I referred to a Buddhist concept studied for at least over a thousand years to support my suspicions of "instant enlightenment". Now, whether that is EXACTLY ten bhumis, or someone breaks down a bhumi into ten more is irrelevant, really. I didn't make up the sutra! I am just referring to it. Take your issues to the Buddha, Ev.

Of course, it is possible to break down a bhumi further, or categorize bhumis together, but you are clearly missing the point of the teaching because you actually haven't spent a good deal of time meditating on these things, or doing relevant Buddhist practices. Come back when...because Buddhism is not just an intellectual pursuit.

So, you think instant enlightenment is possible? Then do it right now. Be enlightened, RIGHT NOW! What could possibly stop you from achieving it - fully and completely?
 
 
Papess
19:58 / 05.05.08
petunia, are you enlightened? is Ev?
 
 
Papess
20:07 / 05.05.08
Are you enlightened? If not, I'm not really sure how you can so boldly adhere to this idea.

Hmm, I know someone who is enlightened. You may have heard of him...Buddha? But what does he know?
 
 
petunia
20:39 / 05.05.08
Firstly, apologies. As Ev said, my comments have threatened to lead the thread into ugly waters. Needlessly provocative.

So, you think instant enlightenment is possible? Then do it right now. Be enlightened, RIGHT NOW! What could possibly stop you from achieving it - fully and completely?

If this is aimed at me, then I do not think 'instant' enlightenment is possible. Well, actually, I sort of do, but it's one of those things where for any case of enlightenment, you can always say 'well they led up to it with this and that'. Zen parables of people realising enlightement when they see the reflection of the moon or when a rock falls, etc. never give the prior years of meditation and so on...

However, I think there is a possibility for 'instant' enlightenment that is isntant in the sense that it is not prepared for. The example I gave of the woman whose name I'm really annoyed I can't remember seems to be onesuch case.

And what stops me from being enlightened RIGHT NOW? Honestly? Fear. I'm scared of it. The unknown. My mind tells me it's a big scary thing, maybe like death. On an intellectual level I am aware that it is my birthright and my true nature, but there is a lot of 'me' in the way. Thus meditation and the irony of seeking for a goal that is not a goal.

I think this answers your question: petunia, are you enlightened? Though I am not sure why you asked it. The reason I asked you was that you were stating as fact certain doctrines that, by their very nature, cannot be experienced without one being enlightened. To do so seems strange unless one is indeed enlightened and has experienced the ten stages.

However, you seem now to be suggesting that you bring up the ten stages not as fact, but as an example of a teaching that speaks of enlightenment as a deepening process. I have read and heard similar accounts of enlightenment. The ideal of a 'perfect' one-off enlightenment, an 'okay, that's it, life is DONE' seems contrary to the nature of life.

Hmm, I know someone who is enlightened. You may have heard of him...Buddha? But what does he know?

If you are in direct contact with Gautama Buddha, then congratulations. I hear he is a nice guy, though a bit stuck in his ways. Tell him I say hi. However, bear in mind the teaching: if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. One's own experience comes before all else.
 
 
EvskiG
20:40 / 05.05.08
petunia, are you enlightened? is Ev?

I will unequivocally and formally state that I am NOT enlightened. As far as I know.

Why anyone would be insulted because the vehicles are described in such a manner is truly advertising their capacity to begin with. . . . In fact, "MAHA" means great, and "HINA" means...well, do you get the picture?

According to the Pali Text Society Dictionary, the word 'hīna is defined thus:

1. inferior, low; poor, miserable; vile, base, abject, contemptible, despicable

2. deprived of, wanting, lacking

A large cup is a large cup, and a small one is small . . . . If you know people insulted by these terms, then they really need to examine why that is and why they feel they need to change an entire tradition to suit their pettiness and lack of understanding.

Hīnayāna . . . is a Sanskrit and Pali term literally meaning "the low vehicle", "the inferior vehicle", or "the deficient vehicle", where "vehicle" (yāna) means "a way of going to enlightenment". It is a polemical term coined by Mahāyāna Buddhists to denigrate their opponents.

- Wikipedia

Hinayana (literally, "inferior way") is a polemical term, which self-described Mahayana (literally, "great way") Buddhist literature uses to denigrate its opponents.

- MacMillan Library Reference Encyclopedia of Buddhism, 2004


Sorry, Therevada Buddhists. If you insist on your own name for your own version of Buddhism, rather than the one Mahayana Buddhists chose for you, you're petty and show a lack of understanding.

I referred to a Buddhist concept studied for at least over a thousand years to support my suspicions of "instant enlightenment".

And plenty of Christian teachings are as old or older. Age doesn't make religious concepts any more or less valid. Perhaps the model is accurate, or at least useful, and perhaps not.

Now, whether that is EXACTLY ten bhumis, or someone breaks down a bhumi into ten more is irrelevant, really.

But that's the question under consideration. Is it useful to model enlightenment as taking place in ten stages, or fewer, or more? Is it necessary? Do all Buddhists do so?

Take your issues to the Buddha, Ev.

What the Buddha posts I'll take to the Buddha. What you post I'll take to you.

And the doctrine set forth in a given Buddhist work may or may not be attributable to the Buddha, and may or may not be true or useful.

you are clearly missing the point of the teaching because you actually haven't spent a good deal of time meditating on these things, or doing relevant Buddhist practices. Come back when...because Buddhism is not just an intellectual pursuit.

Gosh, that's kind of presumptuous and insulting. What do you know about my past and present knowledge and practice, again?

So, you think instant enlightenment is possible? Then do it right now. Be enlightened, RIGHT NOW! What could possibly stop you from achieving it - fully and completely?

I don't know if it is or isn't possible. For that matter, I'm not even sure if the concept of "enlightenment" refers to something real or achievable.

I've had some interesting experiences over the years, but I haven't really come to any conclusions. Other people apparently have.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:55 / 05.05.08
EnFIGHTenment!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:56 / 05.05.08
Ommmmmmmmmm....
 
 
EvskiG
21:08 / 05.05.08
If I were enlightened I'm sure I'd be much more mellow.
 
 
Papess
22:31 / 05.05.08
Oh well, some people just like fights.

All the usual suspects, I see.

You all make the Buddha cry.
 
 
Papess
22:41 / 05.05.08
You know, along with Baby Jesus.

(You know, if you want to treat my posts as crap, go ahead. I lose nothing. Also, I am getting a little used to this with certain people. No matter what I say or who I quote, I must be wrong. It's getting rather creepy.)
 
 
petunia
23:01 / 05.05.08
You know, if you want to treat my posts as crap, go ahead. I lose nothing. Also, I am getting a little used to this with certain people. No matter what I say or who I quote, I must be wrong. It's getting rather creepy.

Please don't give yourself a persecution complex, Papess. I've been discussing your opinions because they present a different approach what I know and have been told regarding the subject. I find some of what you say difficult to understand or appreciate, so I question it.

Your tone has been rather confrontational, especially when dealing with Ev, so please don't find it surprising that I or Ev choose an equal tone to converse with you.

As Ev has pointed out, your choice of terms in respect to outher traditions can be read as derogatory. This may be why certain questions make it seem like your posts are being treated 'as crap' - your posts press certain buttons for posters who would rather that different traditions aren't referred to as 'inferior'. I don't read much of the Temple anymore, but if your posts are similar in other threads, I can imagine this may be why you are receiving the negative attention you speak of.

Or, to put it in more 'Karmic' terms: Maybe you should look at what you are carrying within yourself and adding to the discourse that is causing the conflict - is it all other people?
 
 
Papess
23:31 / 05.05.08
Your tone has been rather confrontational, especially when dealing with Ev, so please don't find it surprising that I or Ev choose an equal tone to converse with you.

I wasn't. I have been direct. I did eventually get snarky. (Is that not allowed on Barbelith now?) But whatever, Petunia. It is not like anyone addressed any of the points I have made.


As Ev has pointed out, your choice of terms in respect to outher traditions can be read as derogatory. This may be why certain questions make it seem like your posts are being treated 'as crap' - your posts press certain buttons for posters who would rather that different traditions aren't referred to as 'inferior'.


You see, the mistake here is that this isn't about different traditions. It is about ONE tradition. If people want to make it divisive, that is their choice...your choice.

Or, to put it in more 'Karmic' terms: Maybe you should look at what you are carrying within yourself and adding to the discourse that is causing the conflict - is it all other people?

Are you looking at your own actions? Do you really think I am so offensive for speaking of the doctrine as it is? Am I to change it to please you in order to not "cause conflict"? Maybe you should check yourself.

Look, don't take my word for it spend some time and learn from a respected master. If you can't be even bothered to watch this, then please don't harass me with uneducated skepticism and ignorant bullying.

Otherwise, maybe people should take their issues up with other sources, because I an not the one who makes the sutras or tantras.
 
  

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