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Enlightenment

 
  

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darth daddy
18:55 / 01.05.08
I have always loved zen buddhist stories. Especially the one finger zen story, where the master waives a finger when asked about zen, and when the student does the same, the master cuts off the student's finger, waves it at him, at which time the student is enlightened.

I have taken it as a matter of faith that I should be direct my efforts towards enlightenment, which I define as freedom from the bondage of culture and conditioning, and ultimate knowledge of reality. I wouldn't mind siddhis, particularly levitation.

Over the years, I feel I have accomplished a great deal, and feel I have had significant revelations. The first time I really observed the inner monologue was amazing.

At this point, I think that the traditional "enlightenment" may just be a myth, or a carrot before the horse, and that there are numerous "enlightenments". I also suspect that "enlightenment" actually involves light.

Is enlightenment the ultimate goal? One of many goals? Or a goal at all?
 
 
Jack Fear
19:03 / 01.05.08
When enlightenment becomes a goal, it ceases to be enlightenment.
 
 
darth daddy
19:10 / 01.05.08
I get that the last desire to give up before enlightenment is that very desire for enlightenment. But isn't the goal, or point of Buddhism, to reach enlightenment?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
19:49 / 01.05.08
Good thread Darth.
Bruce Lee said "A goal is not always meant to be reached, it often serves simply as something to aim at."
Enlightenment is a vague concept in my mind... What exactly is "enlightenment"? Is it different for different people? Is it a feeling of inner peace? Is it like a psychedelic trip?
Maybe actively seeking enlightenment is going about it the wrong way... In meditation, you are trying to focus your will on a single thing, then on nothing... Perhaps it's just something you stumble upon when you're successful with that...
I wonder: If you come enlightened, is it permanent or fleeting?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:25 / 01.05.08
I don't think it's a myth or a goal, in the accepted sense of either word. Goals are concrete: sell 500 grunging-valve sprockets by next Tuesday, finish this paper/comic/shopping list, cure the common cold, find personal fulfillment... some goals are more abstract than others, but they can still be pinned down and fleshed out with reference to the touchable and nameable.

Myths also have a certain concreteness: there may be no such physical being as a dragon, but you can draw one and people can then come along and tell you if your dragon "looks real" or not. If I tell you I'm going to kiww der wabbit with my spear and magic helmet, you can point and laugh* because you have a clear conceptualisation of what a "magic helmet" might be, the likelyhood of its physical existance, the likelyhood of my possessing such an item, and its relative utility in the kiwwing of wabbits. Items and concepts that are mythic in nature can still be described fully enough with reference to concrete objects that they provoke a sense of wonder, or perplexity, or amusement: the roots of mountains, the footfall of a cat, the breath of a fish, the heart of a personnel officer--all are mythical, but we can imagine what they might be like and amuse ourselves thereby. No-one can really point to enlightenment on a map, or describe what enlightenment might be like if you got there.

I'm reasonably certain it won't be like an acid trip, though. Trip-heads are generally wazzocks. You'd think enlightenment would make you less wazzocky, not more.

I'm actually quite interested in the topic of enlightenment as it relates to modern magical practice, because of the way that practitioners often seem to end up in one of two camps: One, you've rejected this hippy enlightenment shite altogether and are merely seeking personal power and gain; two, you reject all that filthy personal power and gain because you're seeking enlightenment.

Personally I've rather exhausted my patience with both of the above. As expressed in Western magical thought, they both seem to reject much sense of connection with or responsibility toward all the other minds sharing our embodied reality. Taken out of its cultural context, the search for "enlightenment" seems to manifest in the West only rarely in acts of compassion or charity. More usually, it manifests as sequestering oneself in an artifically isolated state which nevertheless relies on the support of the "unenlightened" for its continuation, often using psychoactive substances of dubious utility and unexamined environmental/social impact.

Oddly enough, the obverse seems to manifest in very similar conduct: you still live on the dole and take a lot of drugs, you just wear a black t-shirt instead of a cheesecloth blouse and apply a slightly different narrative to your situation. Adherents of both are equally firmly convinced of their correctness, and that everyone who hasn't embraced their perspective is merely too stupid to work it out.

I've come to a point in my own life and w(W)ork where I can't be arsed with either anymore. I've got to the point where I'm finally able to use my magic to help the people around me, bind up broken hearts and drop a few extra coins into empty purses. I can't just turn my back and dismiss it all as maya. For now, I'm seeking such enlightenment as can be found in the mysteries of Midgard.

Enlightenment sounds nice, and I'd have a go myself, but you know how it is. Wood to carry, water to chop and all that.


*None of the above should be taken to suggest that spear and magic helmet combos are purely mythological, or that I am not in the possession of either/both. Because I might be.
 
 
darth daddy
01:36 / 02.05.08
One, you've rejected this hippy enlightenment shite altogether and are merely seeking personal power and gain; two, you reject all that filthy personal power and gain because you're seeking enlightenment.

I'm firmly in the personal power and gain mode. "Enlightenment" and "Gnosis" seem to be synonyms, and if one is enlightened one does not have the problem of "lust for results" hindering one's magickal progress. Such spiritual materialism seems to hinder the best laid plans, however.

I'm reasonably certain it won't be like an acid trip, though. Trip-heads are generally wazzocks. You'd think enlightenment would make you less wazzocky, not more.

I imagine it must be like acid trips I've had, whereby all of my "life" concerns, sex, food, success seem silly as hell.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:53 / 02.05.08
Okay, so we have "enlightenment = gnosis." Now define "Gnosis." Fingerpaints, pipe-cleaners, and cusinaire rods may be used.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:56 / 02.05.08
I imagine it must be like acid trips I've had, whereby all of my "life" concerns, sex, food, success seem silly as hell.

Oh, I've had those. I call then "hangovers." You can tell them from enlightenment because when nice people bring you back chocolate milk, salt'n'vinegar crisps and Resolve, you get better off hangovers.
 
 
darth daddy
01:58 / 02.05.08
I view "Gnosis" as Spare used it,an exhaustion of lust leading to detachment and/or liberation. Come on, tripping is very different from a hangover.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:00 / 02.05.08
Aw, I'm just funning with ya. What I'm saying is that a general temporary detachment from life concerns can take many different forms, and isn't necessarily the same as enlightenment. Neither is Spare's "gnosis" (personally I prefer other terms for this, like ecstasis--"gnosis," in this context, is often less than helpful).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:14 / 02.05.08
...More to the point, I'm not convinced that what the Buddhists conceive of as enlightenment is analogous in any sense to tripping on acid, or entering the various states that get filed under gnosis (even long term). Enlightenment, in the cultural context of Buddhism, refers not to a "trip" of any kind but to a state of perfect sanity, free from all delusion. As I understand it you have Nirvana, which is freedom from certain base drives like hate or greed, but that this is not enlightenment because one may be free of these drives yet still be subject to delusion. Enlightenment comes when one is free of all delusion. I don't think you can usefully compare the states of consciousness entered into under the influence of LSD to actual enlightenment. I tend to see regular users of psychedelics as people who are trying to see behind, or get out of, reality, whereas the enlightened one is fully immersed in our reality but in a very specific way.

Any actual Buddhists want to weigh in here? My heathen ass is not really informed enough to make a decent case for high != enlightened.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
10:05 / 02.05.08
When I asked if it was like a psychedelic trip, I was talking about the state filled with deep insight: We're all connected, the universe is vibration, there's not much difference between light and matter...
You know. A constant state of revelation. The knowing certainty.
That's what I imagine "enligntenment" to be. Sudden intense understanding. Not just giggling and looking at all the pretty colours.
Although that's pretty enlightening too...
Maybe it's just the closest I've ever come to it, and like you said, maybe wouldn't recognize it anyways...
 
 
illmatic
10:41 / 02.05.08
I think enlightenment is such a loaded term, and subject ot so much projection, wish fulfillment, imagingins and preconceptions that it's virtually meaningless. The whole idea of "getting a clear sense of what it means" implies that there's some kind of consensus somewhere - i.e. in another culture they all know what it means if we could just get the words - and I think this is a bit of a fallacy. hat do you want it to mean, and is that possible? might be a better starting point.

On the other hand, this is very good: http://www.biroco.com/other/sv.htm
 
 
EvskiG
14:09 / 02.05.08
A couple of years ago I had what might be described as an enlightenment experience.

While working out at a gym, no less.

It's hard to describe, of course, but suddenly, in a rush, I started experiencing the entire world around me very, VERY intensely, almost like it was burning brightly, but with no distortions, hallucinations, or anxiety. I felt PERFECTLY calm, content, and happy. And I felt deeply and with my entire heart, mind, and soul that the world and everything in it was absolutely perfect.

Was it "enlightenment"? Damned if I know, but it seemed a lot like what I had read about in Lord knows how many zen parables, yoga texts, etc. Apparently unmediated perception of the world around me. Like everyday life, but "two feet off the ground."

I wondered if I should go home and mediate, savor the event, try to write down what I was feeling. Eventually I figured it would last as long as it lasted, and I might as well continue my workout. So I did. And it didn't fade as I did bench presses, leg lifts, and the like.

Back at home, after an hour or so of the experience, I started wondering: what the hell do I do if this is permanent? Can I go to work, do my job, deal with petty day-to-day experiences and annoyances while I'm feeling like this, seeing the world like this? Or over time would it change my attitude, my way of viewing the world, what I want from life?

It faded after a few more hours, to my relief. Made me realize that if that was full-blown enlightenment, or even a glimpse of it, I'm really not ready for it at this stage in my life.

First student, then householder, then forest-dweller, then sage, please.

Oh -- and I wouldn't count on getting siddhis like levitation in the process, if I were you.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:17 / 02.05.08
I think enlightenment is a slippery term that could well mean something totally different depending on who you are talking to. I'd even say that people's "enlightenment-type experiences" during LSD trips could potentially differ greatly from person-to-person, and we may not be describing one clearly defined or objectively constant phenomenon when we use the term "enlightenment".

I've had umpteen enlightenment-type experiences, both in the context of my magical practice and in the context of entheogens, and whilst these experiences have been important to me - life changing even - it doesn't get the gas bill paid, or do much to ameliorate the amount of suffering in the world, or make me immune from acting like a stupid ignorant shaved monkey from time-to-time. The best I can do with these experiences is to try and learn from them, and to bring something of the teachings I've received in these peak experiences into my day-to-day life to whatever extent I am able.

I guess that in our images of "enlightened adepts" such as the Buddha, or even Christ, we have an idealised model of a being who manages to remain fully at this point of enlightened consciousness. But I'm unconvinced of the extent to which this image is much more than a useful fiction for us to strive towards, rather than an achievable long-term condition or the end point of a series of practices. I know that "enlightenment-type experiences" can be accessed - from first hand evidence - and that they can be tremendously valuable; but I'm really not sure of the extent to which a person can actually maintain the full experience of "enlightened consciousness" whilst they are immersed in the complexity of the world. Or even if this is a realistic goal to pursue in any literal sense.

Skeptically speaking, whilst I know for certain that "the constant state of revelation where one perceives the interconnectedness of all things and how all of matter emanates from light" is an achievable state of consciousness that I am capable of accessing; and whilst I am prepared to entertain (and even welcome) the notion that this vision of reality may in some sense be the objective reality we are all subject to. I'm not totally convinced that this is a state of consciousness most suited to our survival needs. It could even just be a glitch in our brain chemistry that produces experiences that we then interpret with spiritual or religious narratives - it's impossible to really tell.

I think these experiences are certainly subjectively valuable in some sense - in that we can definitely learn from them and they generate and cultivate our faculty for compassion and understanding. But it can be difficult to make a healthy bridge between this sort of revelatory peak experience and the experience of existing as a human being on the surface of the planet. I would say that if there is any metaphorical truth to the idea of "The Abyss" or even the Biblical "Fall from Grace", it might have something to do with this fundamental dissonance between our glimpses of the infinite and our very necessary worldly consciousness. The task is perhaps then to find a healthy integration of these experiences into one's life, in a way that does not deny the validity of either mode of consciousness.

You run into a lot of people whose principle motivation seems to be to chase after this Light, and often to the detriment of other facets of their existence. I don't think that a wo/man can live on Light alone, and I believe that the purpose of our existence is an involvement in the world, through the medium of our bodies and our senses, rather than dissolution into the ineffable Light. After all, there'll be plenty of time for that after the death of the body...

So I'd say that "enlightenment" and the image of the "enlightened adept" are useful narratives that we can learn from in our efforts to better understand and integrate these non-ordinary states of consciousness into the context of the rest of our lives, to develop compassion, and better deal with our emotions of fear, doubt, anger, and worry. But I'm hesitant to buy-in to a literal interpretation of these ideas, as if a series of practices or the repetition of these peak experiences can turn you into this "end state" where you are an enlightened master, and no longer have any challenges or problems in your life. I've personally never met anyone like this - and you would think that if this was an achievable condition that could be arrived at through magic, meditation of entheogen use - then there might be more of them about, given the amount of people involved with these practices. Where are they? Do they all get their expenses-paid plane ticket to the Holy Mountain in the post as soon as the hit a certain level in their practice?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
14:44 / 02.05.08
Would it be fair to say that an "enlightened" person is one who has moments of inspired clarity and then applies those insights to what he/she accepts as the reality of everyday life?
In the excellent link to Joel Biroco's site above, I had the feeling that the key to a Zen-like "enlightenment" is not in seeking, but accepting the solid "reality" of our surroundings.
I have to admit that the whole concept of "something right around the corner" has been with me my whole life. I don't like my job, but am waiting for some "sign" for me to make a change.
...Lazy, I know. Aleister would throw something at me...
My wife, on the other hand, who is very un-philosophical, can't understand why I can't just choose to like my job, choose happiness. I guess the Reichian "Put yourself to your work" would probably do me wonders. Maybe I refuse to see that my wife is actually a secret Master, and she has the answers while I'm trying to live my life in the pages of obscure books trying to find "the answer".
Can acceptance of our existance be "enlightenment"?
 
 
darth daddy
15:12 / 02.05.08
Hell No!!!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:29 / 02.05.08
Interesting that you should feel so passionately about that. Why?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:47 / 02.05.08
I actually think Freektemple might well be onto something with: Can acceptance of our existence be "enlightenment"? I think there is nothing more magical and more extraordinary than our existence here and now, this moment, and much of my practice is about attempting to inhabit that more consciously and more fully - either by practicing awake awareness or by communion and dialogue with various deities that personify forces within nature and consciousness. For me, enlightenment is really about being "awake", released from habitual conditioning and emotional armouring (in a Reichian sense), and in balance with nature and the planet. I think it actually is more about "acceptance" than it is about striving to attain this or that nebulous "higher" state of consciousness. These peak experiences come and go, and have their value, but whilst you're in a body - all you can really ever know is what comes in through your five senses - which is pretty fucking extraordinary and perhaps a lot more extraordinary than we fully appreciate much of the time.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
16:00 / 02.05.08
Well said. Intimidating. Hell, almost downright scary... But very well said.
BTW I noticed a mistake I made: When I said "Put yourself to work" and attributed it to Reich, I was thinking of Gurdjief...
...
Once again, playing the Pop-Naive: In the last episode of Battlestar Galactica, there's a scene where a character is beating the snot out of another character to show him "Enlightenment" through pain. She explains and at the same time wonders why we are more alive, more "Awake" under duress... Mere endorphins? I myself have used pain (By piercing) as a path to a heightened sense of awareness... When the endorphins kick in, everything does feel brighter somehow. I'm more aware of all my senses, and it is very... well, "enlightening".
Any thoughts?
 
 
illmatic
16:02 / 02.05.08
Where are they?

Well, you've met me. I keep it concealed most of the time. Otherwise, it's just bloody groupies, autograph hunters, you know the sort ... loads of hassle.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
16:12 / 02.05.08
Rex: My piercings?
 
 
darth daddy
17:31 / 02.05.08
Can acceptance of our existance be "enlightenment"?

If by existance you mean the normal neurotic oral anal pit, Hell No!!! I believe in our ability to evolve beyond limitations of mind and body. There is a great episode in "Absolutely Fabulous" where Edwina yells at her daughter, who is criticizing Edwina's crazy machinations, "What do you want me to be? A Normal Old Toilet Goer?"

If enlightment means passive acceptance of the world and my lot in it, I want nothing to do with it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:48 / 02.05.08
Why does that acceptance have to be passive though? Why can't it be a process of engagment, actively seeking to better understand the mysteries present in the world, and one's "place" in that context? Why assume that the world is inevitably nothing more than a "neurotic oral anal pit," and that acceptance = settling for that?
 
 
EvskiG
17:59 / 02.05.08
Right.

Think of the Ox-Herding Pictures: start in the mundane world, end up back in the mundane world. (First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.)

Oh -- on the connection between "enlightenment" and drug experiences, you might want to check out Alan Watts' little book The Joyous Cosmology. Available in its entirety here.

(Personally, and for the little it's worth, I found the experience noted above substantially different, in both quality and degree, than any drug trip or experience connected with my magical practice. Go figure.)
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
18:54 / 02.05.08
If enlightment means passive acceptance of the world and my lot in it, I want nothing to do with it.

think of it like this: rather than searching for the hidden happy other dimension you believe or at least want to exist behind/outside the boring old reality those unimportant sheeple have to live in, you're spending a lifetime of the hardest work imaginable in an attempt to see, understand, and appreciate the beauty in the world which was all around you in the first place. it's not "passively accepting" things at all - it's working like a dog to change yourself.

or trying to see more of that beauty, anyway - not ever seeing all of it. to me the idea that enlightenment is a state you can exist in or a goal you can reach is kind of like saying that infinity is a number. it's more like a direction to walk in. and (I believe) the right direction is probably a different direction for everyone.

when I say I'm "searching for enlightenment" I mean I'm searching for more information/insight...about what I should be searching for. what's going to make me happy, what's going to make me feel more fulfilled. or maybe for the knowledge that trying to be happy or fulfilled isn't really what I was searching for.

for me, lately, a lot of it has been about letting go of the past and the future and really trying to appreciate the present. and it's been amazing.
 
 
darth daddy
19:35 / 02.05.08
I like Tibet's tantra program a lot more than the Zen program. As I understand tantra, a major aspect of it is generation yoga, whereby you tranform mundane existence into a magical conciousness. You envision yourself as a diety, people you meet as a diety, and incorporate these perceptions(what I call astral perceptions or mandala perceptions) into your daily life. While functioning fairly well on the mundane plane, I endeavor to also function consciously on the "astral" plane. (I hate the term astral as new age hokum, but it seems to fit)

Another goal of tantra is to obtain a "clear light" body, which I interpret as a functioning "imaginary" body. Not to start the "chaos magick" bashing, but as in chaos magick you learn that you, in many if not all respects, chose your self image by the choices you make. By functioning both as a solid body and as an "astral body" your interpretation of bodily sensations can be manipulated and improved (or worsened if you desire).

I read somewhere in a banishing thread the importance of acting physically and astrally while performing the LBRP. Incorporating this idea into physical activity has been some of the most productive "work" I've ever done. Simple example. I swim laps several times a week to counteract my rather Thelemic lifestyle. At the time I swim, one half the pool is sunlight, while the other half is dark. I imagine my legs and arms are pure solar energy in the sunlight area, and pure lunar energy in the dark area. It is an incredible purifying experience.

To get back on topic, why simply "accept" and "wallow" in your current perceptions when they 1) may suck, and 2) may be transformed into something more fun and sexy?
 
 
darth daddy
20:20 / 02.05.08
Sorry to go off on a rant, but a couple of years ago I had an extremely bad time of it, having made quasi illegal decisions the result of which were threatening my family, my career, my possessions, everything. I decided to read the collected works of Wei Wu Wei (Why Lazurus laughed, etc...) When you are being absolutely fucked (especially when its absolutely your own fault), being told about a "no self" is of no use whatsoever.

"Hey, this fuckwithage isn't really happening because "I" don't really exist!!! I feel better already!!" Incidently, during the worst night of it, a special about the haunted cathedral of Aleister Crowely played. This did make me feel better.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:31 / 02.05.08
But that kind of process is precisely what's being talked about above. Finding the Divine in the world around you, seeking for the Mysteries expressed in every encounter, in every process. In my practice this is expressed through spirit-work--striving for awareness and interaction with the spirits around me, the city-spirits present in junction boxes and dumpsters and traffic, talking to me through graffiti, the spirits present in the trees and the rocks and the land itself; through devotional work with my Gods, and seeking to find those Gods in everything I do. When I go out to work to help provide for my household, Thor is present. When I act with compassion and patience, Sigyn is present. When I reach out to another person or community to share and explain some element of own my work, when I make someone laugh, Loki is present. (And if I can't find the Gods or spirits anywhere in what I'm doing, I ask myself if I ought to be doing it.)

That's not "wallowing in your current percepetions," it's seeking to broaden those perceptions to include all the mysteries of existance. It's not about shutting off and just focusing on the mundane, but finding the wonder and the glory in the world around you.
 
 
darth daddy
20:43 / 02.05.08
In the excellent link to Joel Biroco's site above, I had the feeling that the key to a Zen-like "enlightenment" is not in seeking, but accepting the solid "reality" of our surroundings.

My experience is that there is no solid reality, but rather more of a process that can be played with.

Maybe I refuse to see that my wife is actually a secret Master

Aren't they all?
 
 
Proinsias
01:39 / 03.05.08
can't recall where exactly but I've read/heard quite a few times of so called enlightened people claiming that the people who are most absorbed in life, and thus have no time or need for pursuits like enlightenment, are the ones who are enlightened. The dedicated shop keeper is an example that springs to mind.

Ev:

Like everyday life, but "two feet off the ground."

I've been getting cut stuff then. My sources are only 2 inches off the ground.
 
 
Papess
03:37 / 03.05.08
Any actual Buddhists want to weigh in here? My heathen ass is not really informed enough to make a decent case for high != enlightened.

Actually, you were doing quite well, MC.

...More to the point, I'm not convinced that what the Buddhists conceive of as enlightenment is analogous in any sense to tripping on acid, or entering the various states that get filed under gnosis (even long term). Enlightenment, in the cultural context of Buddhism, refers not to a "trip" of any kind but to a state of perfect sanity, free from all delusion. As I understand it you have Nirvana, which is freedom from certain base drives like hate or greed, but that this is not enlightenment because one may be free of these drives yet still be subject to delusion. Enlightenment comes when one is free of all delusion.

That was really well stated. There is something that I think is being overlooked, however, (and not by MC, just generally). It is that there are ten stages of "enlightenment" in Buddhism.

1. The Supremely joyful.
2. The Stainless.
3. The Illuminating.
4. The Radiant.
5. Very Difficult to Train For.
6. The Manifesting.
7. The Far Going.
8. The Unwavering.
9. Excellent Intelligence.
10. Cloud of Dharma.

The very first stage is like a joyous awakening. One is able to see the true nature of existence but they are still entangled in it. Gradually, with practice, as the mind gets subtler, this entanglement becomes less and less. It is said there is similarity between the first and tenth bhumis, except that in the tenth bhumi of enlightenment there are less conditions or frames of reference, possibly none.

So, when we discuss "enlightment" and try to define it, we have to respect it as a process and not something that just happens. At lot of presupmtions about enlightment remind me of the phrase "overnight success". Since we are not able to perceive in it's entirety, the body of work that went into that success, or that enlightment, sometimes we encapsulate that state. Then we can't or won't perceive each drop that went into the bucket, or each and every moment that was spent in meditaion, or each time we stayed in the "view". Thus, that flash of insight is held as a pinnacle, when it is just part of a graduated process of unfettering the mind. If that happens, the flash of insight can be lost and become yet another obstacle, just another condition. That reminds me of another phrase, "one-hit wonder".

However, the constant attendance to one's mind through the stages leads to an awareness of subtler and subtler obstructions in our perceptions. Which, once removed one's mind is as open and immovable as the sky.
 
 
Baroness von Lenska
04:53 / 03.05.08
Yay! A Temple thread I can participate in! This calls for celebratory happy dancing!

Ahem. On "enlightenment," I'm rather fond of the Grand Grouch U.G. Krishnamurti's particular phrasing, "the natural state." That is, a part of enlightenment is the realization that one is already enlightened. To pursue enlightenment as a goal necessarily puts it off into a future possibility, rather than the present actuality that it is. In the paraphrased words of the Buddha, "There is only one time, and that time is Now."

On the nature of enlightenment, Mordant's wording is as close as you can come to perfection: "perfect sanity." While many traditions do incorporate mystical and metaphysical aspects into their concepts of enlightenment such as siddhis and being liberated from the cycle of death and rebirth, etc., my personal interpretation is that such freedom takes the form of formlessness (couldn't resist) and detachment as valid, useful and familiar ways of experiencing and interacting with the world, rather than literal external truth. To be freed from rebirth need not imply physical reincarnation, but can suggest an experience closer to that of being fully present in one's life, while being fully aware of how fluid and constantly changing the universe is. The present moment, the present life, is but one of many, like patterns arranged in the sand, all of them lost forever when the wind comes howling through. But after all the dust resettles, the wind remains, and embodies the true nature of the world--sunyata, an open sky. Enlightenment suggests fully living one's current mundane life while learning to identify with the wind, not one's particular pattern in the sand.
 
 
Baroness von Lenska
04:58 / 03.05.08
Gah. Shame on me for not refreshing before coming back to this thread.

Papess, you make a good point. By its very nature, referring to enlightenment as though it were an instantaneous, sudden affair, rather than a process or continuous flow makes no sense, although I think that some could argue for a definition of enlightenment as including a "line" that, once crossed, can't be uncrossed. If that makes any sense.
 
 
petunia
14:58 / 03.05.08
ooooh.

Fun thread. Really loving your responses, Mordant.

As a zen practitioner, enlightenment is my explicit 'aim', I guess. It's a paradox spoken about by a few masters: the aim or goal is the greatest hindrance to enlightenment.

As has been said, goals, aims, considerations of 'what enlightenment is like' and the such reside quite firmly in the mind, which only ever works in the sense of the future or the past. In this way, enlightenment can't be 'understood', or even 'experienced' in a certain sense ('experience' usually considered as a experience that happens to something/someone).

It's a bizzarre subject to talk about and I'm not sure there's that much i can say about it that has not been said before. Even when trying to dispel myth/mystery/LSDwank, one always ends up talking about enlightenment as something pretty mysterious, largely because most people who talk about it don't know it, and those people who do know it see the impossibility of using language to describe something that resides outside of language (how could the mirror show itself?).

I'm interested in Ev's mention of a 'short burst of enlightenment'. It reminds me of a story I read by a French lady who basically 'became enlightened' without any prior practice, warning, or backup myth to help her. A secular psychologist (I think) who one day just lost her Mind (Mind in the Zen/Buddhist sense of 'ego/thought/selfthing'). She described the loss of all the drives and goals and aims she used to construct her Self and the immense fear and panic she experienced in being in this situation. Something like realising the loss of something that you'd assumed was you forever, seeing the 'you' was actually a lie, but not being sure what to do now. I think she went on to get advice from some more traditional teachers of enlightenment who helped to ground her experience somewhat in the context of previous people's enlightenments. I can't remember her name, but she wrote a book about it called something like 'Touching the Infinite'. Really interesting for that 'outsider' perspective on the situation. She may, or may not, have been called Susan.

I generally understand the whole enlightnment thing as this dropping/loss of the Self. Many masters speak of things such as 'the drop of water falling back into the ocean' - stuff about realising oneself to be an unbroken part of the universe, one's consciousness being that same no-mind as everything else. 'Susan' spoke of a deepening in her situation, like a calming whereby she started to accept what was happening and it brought new insight. She spoke of how the 'meaning' of human existence seemed to be that the universe could become conscious of itself - our 'normal' consciousness being akin to a seed in which consciousness grows to the point where it can happily merge with the (?) again...

Obviously, the whole thing is rather ironic, as Dogen (i think) points out, the being that is trying to become enlightened (to become one with the universe) is, and always has been, already one with the universe and could be nothing other. Strangely, there still seems to be a necessity to try to realise this, as too many LSD Messiahs who have read that 'everyone is enlightened anyway' and believe it proove.

As for the 'astral plane' and stuff, I've heard it described that the enlightened person is equally existent in both the physical and non-physical, where living humans (with the exeption of Bauls and the like) are usually resident in the Physical and spirits (or whatever one might call those sorts of things) are more resident (or conscious) of the non-physical. The more aware you become of either, the more aware you become of the other, to the point where (in enlightenment maybe) you realise the two are equal and co-dependent parts of existence. There is no hierarchy between the two 'realms', as some forms of Christian mythology (for instance) suggest.

There's a danger with Drugs and trips that one may have lovely pictures painted for you and end up getting attached to the picture, which could lead you astray. This was a real problem for me for the first few years of my practice, where I had had certain experiences on mushrooms to which I attached importance. This led me to assume that my 'goal' in meditation was towards the states-of-mind I expereinced on hallucinogens, which gave me unfulfilled expectations of euphoria, as well as a bit of a fear complex about the whole thing (Horrible self-loss bad trip...) In creating wonderful (or dreadful) expanses within the mind, such drugs can help to tell us things about ourselves, or open us to the possibilities of a life different to how we are accustomed to view it, but I believe they can largely be detrimental to a path towards enlightenment. Obvously, this is more in reference to the path of meditation, but I think the situation hold true for most approaches to enlightenment - if you are after direct clarity of one's consciousness, it seems to make sense not to muddy it up with hallucinogens. Sure, Bill Hicks said LSD was a squeegie for his third eye, but I just think he was wrong.

It's weird how much myth and pomp gets built up around enlightenment. I don't know if it's a symptom of the idea being brought into a Christian culture and seen through that lens (the ideal of an omnipotent, omnipresent God getting grafted onto the idea of a 'universal consciousness'), but there seems to be a kind of 'superhuman' view of the Enlightened One having direct consciousness of EVERYTHING EVER RIGHT NOW or something. I was sooo surprised when my master answered 'I don't know' to a question for the first time. I've got used to it now, but it's a strange thing for me to compare my personal experience of (someone who says they are and who I beleive is) and enlightened being with the ideal sent out by so many people. A co-disciple still has a hard time with the fact that our master has dietary requirements and intolerances, that he's allergic to wool, that he doesn't know certain things, that his spelling isn't great, that he farts... From what I can tell, enlightenment is something a lot more basic and fundemental than attaining TEH MATRIX WARRIOR SKILLZ.

Obviously, I still harbour the suspicion that my master is just hiding these abilities from us, but that's by-the-by.

So yeah, from my perspective, the thing is a strange paradox whereby if you project and aim towards the goal, this aim stands to get in the way of the reality, but if you just slump into 'well i'm already enlightened, so I don't care', you're equally projecting and sticking in the Mind. It's a matter of becoming more and more aware of one's situation in the moment, of taking one's consciousness away from reliance on the Mind and towards a more natural 'flow' with the rest of the world.

Oh, and it's most definitely not about shutting oneself away in solitude. The ascetic ideal just seems to negate life. If you can't be enlightened while doing the shopping, working as a postman, attending a concert or fucking your lover, you're not enlightened. Unless you just don't want to do things, I suppose. Some people just like to play scrabble.
 
  

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