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Enlightenment

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:39 / 14.05.08
To name your daddy/mommy issues as the demon dogzilla allows you to at least barter with them for relief.

I understand that this has been useful for some people but personally I've found techniques like that a really GOOD way of collapsing into a decaying orbit around your own issues, locked into a disease process of damage-rehearsal where greater and greater power is conferred on the very demon you're trying to escape.
 
 
ghadis
18:44 / 14.05.08
Tantra also envokes all kinds of gods to assist with combat with one's karma.

If by Karma you mean Giant Insectoids, then i know exactly what you mean.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
18:55 / 14.05.08
I can see the validity of naming an issue to have power over it. But I think that facing, and through will, defeating your demons is preferable to bartering with them. Bartering implies that you are letting them have power over you.
Not that they wouldn't. Mommy/Daddy issues, Sick Uncle issues, Mean Bully issues all have an impact on your life. I'm not arguing that the past doesn't vibrate into the present. Trying to rise above that is what I'm getting at. And I'm not saying to let go of your past like it never happened, but I doubt you're going to hunt down the little prick that beat you up in kindergarten... If that left a scar, accepting that it happened, that it did hurt, crying it out, is a better way of moving on that the whole psychic eye-for-an-eye trip. It creates a negative cycle, and I think we're supposed to go beyond that.
I'm not a tie-dyed hippy nor a turn-the-other-cheek Christian, but I do believe that violence begets violence begets violence.
Sometimes letting go is the only way to transcend.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:03 / 14.05.08
I've found that with the Past Ick (my MDD, let me show you it) the approach that has been most helpful to me is to use Past Ick as an anchor for compassion. Like, instead of focusing in on my specific experience, using that experience as a key to understanding the experiences of other people.

When I do the opposite--focusing in on my own experiences and the damage done--I find I get into this really ugly state where I'm constantly trying to justify the amount of pain and damage in relation to the events of the past, often at the expense of being tempted to belittle other peoples' pain.

Trying to bury it all and walk away certainly didn't help, but sitting in a corner picking my scabs didn't help either. What has helped me is using the pain as a point of connection whereby I can reach out and do some good in the world. In that way I'm not minimising my own suffering, I'm honouring it, but I'm also not letting it take over.
 
 
iamus
23:11 / 14.05.08
I've said it before, but please please please practice pranayama carefully, and ideally with the aid of an experienced teacher.


I can second that one. I've not really gotten into serious trouble with it, but have definitely given major cause for concern.

Basically, the instructor under which I used to learn Kung Fu used to also throw a little Chi Kung into the start of the lessons. I always found that more interesting than the Kung Fu itself, so it's something I tended to focus on a lot (occasionally under the influence of psychedelics too). Problem was, I don't think the instructor knew as much as he really should do about the practice, and was unwilling to focus on it more. Eventually I gave the class up, and left with a handful of half-formed ideas on how I should be breathing.

I've been a chest breather, rarely breathed from the stomach and, like Mordant, I used to have an area of particular muscular tension right underneath the ribs. If I was clear and patient in practice, it's great. But too often I'd throw in little bits of breathing here and there as I did other things in the day, or wouldn't be fully concentrated when I was actually practicing. Trying with best intentions to get the breath into the right areas, I kind of forced it down in the wrong ways and overloaded some stuff.

My tongue was the biggest indicator of this, which went some pretty alarming colours and textures, from bluey-purple with massive patches to greyish with a thick streak of horrible neon yellow. Different states are accompanied by a definite feeling of wrongness from different organs.

No nice. But whenever it started to get really bad, I would take the time to get it to settle and It would clear. Problem was, I wasn't associating the reasons I was fucking myself up with the particular methods of breathing that were bad, and so it would come back.

Timely to talk about this actually, because I've recently been fixing it after realising that I've been taking a whole different tack to breathing as I do to pretty much anything else in my life. Now I'm doing one very simple breathing exercise every night and morning, lifting and dropping the arms with breath to reprogram the muscles and then ignoring how I breathe at any other time of the day, confident that everything will reassert itself and that the body will know fine well how to breathe as long as I take the ego out of the equation. It's working wonders, and I now know a hell of a lot more about the energy pathways of my body than I ever did before, mainly out of necessity.

It's always puzzled me that the Temple has never had a proper, proper thread on breathing. To me, it seems to be the total lynchpin of our personalities, and how we go about interacting with everything. I believe it to be the most important foundation in any kind of work. But that's a reflection on me, for never starting one.

Other than the use of strong psychedelics, I know of no other magical/spiritual technique with a greater risk of Fucking Yourself Up.

I've done a good bit of work with psychedelics and I'm honestly not sure where I stand with them. They tend to excite and underwhelm me in equal measure. One thing I'm certain of is that they are not the be-all and end-all. They are not the "experience", but neither are they necessarily a one-way road into a fuckwit cul-de-sac.

They can certainly be a useful tool (good for letting you put a different head on), and are there to teach something, but it's a lesson to grab while it's there and then go and integrate into the day-to-day workings of stuff. It's not a lesson to marvel at and then leave behind so you have to go back and fetch it time and time again, which is where a lot of people seem to go wrong. Also, most importantly, sometimes they're just good for some pretty colours and a bit of a giggle.
 
 
iamus
23:16 / 14.05.08
've found that with the Past Ick (my MDD, let me show you it) the approach that has been most helpful to me is to use Past Ick as an anchor for compassion.

I've been meaning (i.e. Not Doing) to start a thread on Compassion and Creativity for coming on a year now. The interplay of those two things pretty much sum it up for me, and have done for a good while.

I think most of this has been kind of off-topic though...
 
 
darth daddy
01:02 / 15.05.08
It's always puzzled me that the Temple has never had a proper, proper thread on breathing. To me, it seems to be the total lynchpin of our personalities, and how we go about interacting with everything. I believe it to be the most important foundation in any kind of work.

I've never had much use for pranayama...no great results...do you think this work is similar to moving the "assemblage" of a person as set forth by Castanda.
 
 
illmatic
04:32 / 15.05.08
I have read a bunch of the "live in the moment" books, the best of the lot being "The Power of Now" by Eckart Tolle. As I have posted earlier, none of this stuff has helped me in the least when faced with real life problems. The premise that "there is no past, there is no future, there is only now" seems patently false from an experiential position. I do have a past (perhaps defined as memories and cultural conditioning) that I need to deal with, and I have a future (defined as plans and a hopes). Ignoring this seems like "living in denial".

Well for me it's not just been reading a bunch of books (I think Eckhart Tolle is not very good by the way - 'cos he mystifys what should be simple) but it's an idea that I've explored in conjunction with sitting meditation practice. I try and expand the sitting so it encompasses every moment of my life. Our minds being what they are, this isn't possible but it's a fun aspiration.

I can say, hand on heart, that this practice has made impacted on *every* problem I've had/got and made all of them easier to deal with. It's not to do with denying that there's a past a future - moreso cultivating a clear perspective where one can see, feel and accept whatever feelings, emotions, problems are racing through your bodymind. It's nowt to do with "denial" or "repression" - no idea where you are getting this from - its the exact opposite in fact.
 
 
illmatic
05:10 / 15.05.08
confident that everything will reassert itself and that the body will know fine well how to breathe as long as I take the ego out of the equation

Great comment. It's that kind of attitude, combined with lashing of gentleness, that I'd try to encourage in breathwork. It's what I was trying to get at in my post above. Why *impose* some bloody fallacious mechanical rhythm on a natural process?

Freektemple:By counting (at least at first), you become aware of the breathing cycle, and if you have bad habits, such as only chest breathing, you can try break those habits through practice.

I'd agree that this is something interesting experiment to start with, but I think you could end up imposing another habit on top of what you do. This came out from me doing a breathwork session with a friend who's also a therapist. I'd "taught" myself to belly breath so the top of my chest wasn't getting any love - loads of forced belly breathing can still get you out of wack and not impact on underlying tension. Even this doesn't do any justice do the type of breathing I experienced. The idea that "we know best" - normally derived form some book or other - compared to just *paying attention* to the rhythms of our body seems very wrong to me.

BTW, Jon Kabat Zinn doesn't have a lot to say about breathing practices as such - I get most of my inspiration ('scuse me) from Wilhelm Reich's work.

EV: That Crowley extract you posted just reminded me of how much I hate him. His practices are absolutely riven with horrible, uncompassionate public school sadism. Twat.

More later.
 
 
illmatic
06:45 / 15.05.08
I think there’s a totally false dichotomy emerging in this thread between active techniques (banishing, NLP and the like) and the alleged “repression” that goes along with being in the present. I’ll try and illustrate why I think this is totally false.

So. Trying to connect with the present. If one experiences a negative emotion based on the past, this is taking you out of touch with the present, right? So, it should be pushed out of your mind, right? While you reconnect with the ever-sunny present? No, wrong. The negative emotion of memory is what you are experiencing, therefore it is part of the present moment, therefore getting in touch with that and exploring that is part of the process, part of the sadhana. I experience this as “sitting” with emotions, thoughts or feelings – one notes something is occurring and puts ones attention there – you might notice internal dialogue, memories, imagery, body feelings or some subtle gestalt of all of the above. Sometimes directing ones conscious attention to these things can be transformative, sometimes the emotions will be so powerful they’ll sweep my self-consciousness of them away, and I’ll get lost on a stream of memories, fantasties, revenge, hurt, whatever. Regardless, I don’t beat up on myself about this, I just pull myself back to the present, pull myself back to my experience, and note what is occurring and “sit” with it.

All this is rooted in a regular practice where I sit, and try and continually connect to the present moment over and over again, while noting the never-ending capacity of the mind to wander. The daily practice makes it easier to note when one does get swept off and loses touch with the moment in day to day life.

I mentioned a false dichotomy above. Working with whatever emotions by attending to them, is as much active work as NLP or Banishing or personifiying them as demons or whatever. I really *do not understand* why you're trying to put them in a different category.

What I’ve written about above – the close attention to internal processing - doesn’t seem a million miles away from NLP to me.
It is also absolutely rocksolid rooted in my study and practice of tantra, which is why I find it a bit weird that tantra is then evoked a few posts down. Being in the moment is something that is continually referenced in Buddhist tantra. If you're saying it isn't then, you don't understand it.

Enough for now.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:43 / 15.05.08
It's always puzzled me that the Temple has never had a proper, proper thread on breathing. To me, it seems to be the total lynchpin of our personalities, and how we go about interacting with everything. I believe it to be the most important foundation in any kind of work.

If you ever find time/resources to make it happen, I'd love to see a thread like that.
 
 
iamus
10:08 / 15.05.08
I've never had much use for pranayama...no great results...do you think this work is similar to moving the "assemblage" of a person as set forth by Castanda.

Never read Castaneda, I'm afraid. Basically, I know from personal experience that how my breathing is in any particular moment impacts massively on who I am and what I do in that moment. If it's deep and serene, I can stare at a blank wall for three hours. If it's shallow and staid, it can take me three hours to get out of bed. If it's trapped and tight, I can't hold a conversation with anyone, or look them in the eye. If it's free and easy I can be the most confident, outgoing person in the room.

Why *impose* some bloody fallacious mechanical rhythm on a natural process?

I do think breathing practices (I know much less of Pranayama than I do of Chi Kung) can be massively important, but it's in maintaining the right attitude. Improper maintenance of the skeletomuscular system (which pretty much everyone is guilty of) effectively imposes a fallacious mechanical rhythm on the breath. Like lightning, the breath'll find the easiest way down, bypassing areas of knotted muscular tension if it has to. The longer that goes unchecked the truer it'll become, as the places that really need a good stretch and supply of oxygen will continue to be starved.

(On topic, honest!)....

If we agree (and we might no) that we store memory, good and bad, within the body and the muscles then the worse this gets, the more we reinforce our old and counterintuitive ways of thinking. The more the structure of our bodies is defined by the problems of the past, the more our minds will be too. If that base is insecure, then you'll be looking forward from very shaky ground.

In purely present moment terms, breathing is a process of taking the world in and putting yourself back out. If you can't do both in complete confidence, then it's going to affect everything you try to do from that base.

Which is absolutely everything.

If one experiences a negative emotion based on the past, this is taking you out of touch with the present, right? So, it should be pushed out of your mind, right? While you reconnect with the ever-sunny present? No, wrong. The negative emotion of memory is what you are experiencing, therefore it is part of the present moment, therefore getting in touch with that and exploring that is part of the process, part of the sadhana.

Totally agree with that, which in conjunction with this...

All this is rooted in a regular practice where I sit, and try and continually connect to the present moment over and over again, while noting the never-ending capacity of the mind to wander.

Reminds me on some of the most useful advice on meditation I've ever heard, which came from an Alan Watts lecture on the subject. The short, inelegant (and probably slightly wrong) way... You treat all extraneous noises not as distinct noises but as the one tapestry of sound and avoid attaching images or concepts to them wherever possible. You don't hold onto them, just view them as they pass by and allow them to melt into one.

It's the exact same for the mind. If left to its devices it will wander, providing its own car alarms and barking dogs. These should be treated in the same way as extraneous noise. They should be accepted as they arise and pass but shouldn't be held onto, not even to try and suppress, because the act of suppression only increases the noise. I think he says it's like smoothing rough water with a flat iron. You'll only make things worse.

If you can maintain a position of complete observance in the face of your own chattering mind, then eventually it'll tire itself out without interference. When it does, it'll begin to show those benefits even in day to day life.

Most useful trick I've ever learned (and I've not mastered it yet by any fucking stretch of the imagination). If you can look with a a constant, confident bemusement at the shit your own head likes to throw out, then you can pretty much deal with anything and anyone the world sends your way, taking it as it comes.

If you ever find time/resources to make it happen, I'd love to see a thread like that.

I would like to do it. But I'm shit with promises of that nature.
 
 
illmatic
16:33 / 15.05.08
Time for a special double heading of thread neglect guilt...

I've been meaning (i.e. Not Doing) to start a thread on Compassion and Creativity for coming on a year now.

Please do. Really digging your contributions to this thread
 
 
darth daddy
20:02 / 15.05.08
What I’ve written about above – the close attention to internal processing - doesn’t seem a million miles away from NLP to me.
It is also absolutely rocksolid rooted in my study and practice of tantra, which is why I find it a bit weird that tantra is then evoked a few posts down.


I agree with what you have written. I was addressing, perhaps clumsily, the threat of passive acceptance of the status quo in the guise of being in the moment. I believe you would agree with me that being in the moment does not hamstring efforts to improve the moment, or work to alter the inner monologue. If I'm having cyclical thoughts on a bad relationship, for example, simply observing the thoughts is one way of separating from them. Another way is to actively modify the inner monologue to break the cycle.

I'm advocating a kind of "liberation theology" view of acceptance. Just as in Christianity the goal of "heaven" can result in oppression, ie: yeah, stuff sucks now but your humility will provide you a front row in heaven, being tranquil in the present does not forebear contesting obstacles you face. Now I do not believe this is the aim of buddhist thought, just a misconception that I had that bit me in the ass. Specifically, facing real life problems with a world view that "all is illusion" does not work.
 
 
Proinsias
22:31 / 17.05.08
Specifically, facing real life problems with a world view that "all is illusion" does not work.

< posting drunk>
I don't see much difference between interacting with a world that is 'an illusion' and interacting with a world that is 'real'. 'Interacting' and 'world' seem to be the important bits.
< /posting drunk>
 
 
Proinsias
23:02 / 19.05.08
iamus:
confident that everything will reassert itself and that the body will know fine well how to breathe as long as I take the ego out of the equation


Rex Feral:
Great comment. It's that kind of attitude, combined with lashing of gentleness, that I'd try to encourage in breathwork. It's what I was trying to get at in my post above. Why *impose* some bloody fallacious mechanical rhythm on a natural process?


I think there may be a place for the practice of natural breathing and controlled breathing. In day to day life my breathing fluctuates between natural, controlled and uncontrolled. By uncontrolled I mean that my natural breathing is clearly not doing me much good and I'm struggling to control it, a slightly extreme example happened a few weeks ago when I had a large drunk man with his forehead pressed up against mine screaming I'd just smashed his window, it wasn't me. In times of stress my breathing becomes less productive and I believe some of the mechanical, or controlled, techniques might become useful to allow for decent natural breathing to return. It could perhaps be likened to training your cardio fitness using sets and short repetitive exercises instead of going for a really long walk. I appreciate that constantly working, I know working isn't the right word but fuck it, on natural breathing will allow me to become more difficult to unsettle but I also recognize that I'm still going to become unsettled a few more times before I snuff it.

Taking the ego out of the equation is one thing when you're in a dark,quiet, room but it's a different matter in the midst of a very unpleasant situation. I'd quite like to have some sort of fallback when I can't just fold up my ego and put it away, as has been know to happen on occasions.

As with many strong positions I hold in life the solution seems to be: a bit of both should be good, with varying degrees for varying people.

I was trying to work in Bruce Lee/some Jazz musicians learning the rhythm/rules in order to break them but you'll just have to imagine it's really good since I can't really figure out how to word it.
 
 
illmatic
11:44 / 20.05.08
Oh, I'd agree with you, I think.

I went on a knife defence course a while back, and one of hte most useful things* I found out was that controlled breathing can help prevent bloodloss. The guy running it came up with a nice visualisation - in/hold/out/hold, running round the borders of a square. In the centre of a square is your reason for keeping on - the person or whatever, you imagine yourself surviving for.


Taking the ego out of the equation is one thing when you're in a dark,quiet, room but it's a different matter in the midst of a very unpleasant situation

For me, the thing about meditation is that it is meant to help with those situations. The quiet, dark room is a rehearsal for the rest of life. There has to be a connection between the two.

*(Note - not practically useful, as I don't get stabbed that often. I meant potentially useful).
 
 
Proinsias
18:59 / 20.05.08
For me, the thing about meditation is that it is meant to help with those situations. The quiet, dark room is a rehearsal for the rest of life. There has to be a connection between the two.

It definitely does help with those situations. I was just posting to try and address a sort of 'this way is the right way to work with breathing and that way is obv wrong' feeling I was getting. When you really get down to it where do you draw the line between natural and unnatural breathing, like the old Alan Watts example of the unnatural human construction and the perfectly natural birds' nest. When does wanting to see how long you can hold your breath become an unnatural urge?

I apologize about veering off-topic but I do get the feeling a thread discussing enlightenment is bound to end up discussing something aside from the unutterable mu.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:18 / 05.06.08
controlled breathing can help prevent bloodloss. The guy running it came up with a nice visualisation - in/hold/out/hold, running round the borders of a square. In the centre of a square is your reason for keeping on - the person or whatever, you imagine yourself surviving for.


I'd like to hear more about this technique, if possible. It sounds really interesting, with plenty of applications outside of the not bleeding to death one.
 
 
gentian
00:50 / 18.08.08
Might be handy for EMTs and the like to know it, too.
 
 
illmatic
13:37 / 18.08.08
It's pretty much as described really:
So you could do it thusly - in - top of square, out - right of square, in - bottom of square, out - left of square. I think he said he imagined a point in the air drawing the sides of the square as you go. I'd have to practice it a few times I think, doesn't feel natural at the moment.
 
 
EvskiG
15:22 / 18.08.08
Can you provide a link to any source -- ideally something medical or otherwise authoritative -- showing that controlled breathing can help prevent blood loss?

(I always like to see a bit more evidence than "a guy told me.")
 
 
grant
18:21 / 18.08.08
I'd be curious about that too.

It does seem like controlled breathing would oxygenate blood and lower pulse rate, which would be good things for someone who was bleeding.
 
 
illmatic
20:47 / 18.08.08
Can you provide a link to any source -- ideally something medical or otherwise authoritative -- showing that controlled breathing can help prevent blood loss?

No, I can't. It was a technique handed over at a seminar. No idea if it's based in medical actuality or not, but if you want to dig up evidence proving or disproving, go for your life.

It does seem a no-brainer to me - stress situations equal panic breathing. In a situation like that,. control of breathing equals reduced heart rate equals less blood loss, surely?
 
 
EvskiG
11:20 / 19.08.08
I don't really know. That's why I was hoping you could provide some sort of substantiation for your claim.

Apparently not.
 
 
illmatic
12:18 / 19.08.08
Oh fuck off, Ev.
 
  

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