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Darkmatter

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:19 / 23.09.07
This would seem to represent a perfect test case for the shiny new banhammer. Here we have a serial offender who only ever talks about a) adding up everything until he gets 23, or b) raping babies. See here here
here etc. or Google site:barbelith.com darkmatter for further evidence.

Sorry, but I kind of feel that anyone who thinks that a defence can be offered in this case is a fucking sap.

[ETA: I apologise unreservedly for the tone of this post. I stand by my call to ban this poster but the way I acted here was out of order.]
 
 
luminocity
20:48 / 23.09.07
There wouldn't be any defence even if you were paid to read.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:49 / 23.09.07
That's never real surely, it's just somebody popping in every now and then to take the piss.
 
 
c0nstant
21:19 / 23.09.07
irrelevant though surely. ze IS an annoying dipshit, who clogs the temple with useless crap and has been proven to be EXTREMELY uncommunicable. Does it matter if it's a pisstake?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:58 / 23.09.07
Okay, another mod has requested a ban and I see no Earthly reason not to okay it. This will take a while to go through since we need a critical mass of Temple mods to say yea or nay, so if anyone knows of any pressing reason why Darkmatter should be allowed to get away with this crap they will have a chance to jump in and say their piece. (Be advised that it had better be good, and that I personally will hate you.)
 
 
Closed for Business Time
22:07 / 23.09.07
Please, if only for the offences pertaining to the mangling of perfectly good PK Dick and Lovecraft, kick the eedjit out.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:07 / 23.09.07
I was not familiar with this individual before, but I have to admit ze writes as spam-mail thinks. Are we sure he's not suffering from some sort of mental illness (psychosis? eschizophrenia?) and hir post are not, well, a "cry for help"? Seriously.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:08 / 23.09.07
mind you, I'm not suggesting ze is to be spared banning.
 
 
illmatic
22:12 / 23.09.07
Megatron: There's no way of knowing is there? He could be ill, he could be simply an arsehole. Either way there isn't anything we can do for him, apart from removing him from this space.

So, are we still at the situation where we need 8 mods to ban? I think that's waaaay too high and rather out of step with the rest of the net.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:15 / 23.09.07
Surely that's not 8 Temple mods, though, is it? The way I understood it a Temple mod could put the initial request in and then another 7 from anywhere agree it. Am I wrong?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:18 / 23.09.07
Well, at least we can assume from this that it takes moderator votes from the forum rather than in general - at least, I have no banning request to vote on, so it looks like Temple moderators only.

Elsewhere, this comes across as a pretty good argument for not trusting moderators with banning powers. There has been no discussion with the wider board before the banning request was put in, so it seems that we have gone from an appearance of democratic discussion straight to an oligarchy making decisions without consultation. The thread starts by providing a series of links, but it actually doesn't do very much in the way of explaining why this behaviour is offensive, what damage it is doing to Barbelith, or indeed why, specifically, Aunt Beast thinks he should be banned - we only get:

a) only ever talks about a) adding up everything until he gets 23, or b) raping babies.

and

b) Sorry, but I kind of feel that anyone who thinks that a defence can be offered in this case is a fucking sap.

a) is actually untrue; although it has force as an expression of frustration, it does not pass the quality test for arguments for banning - that behaviour is identified, that that behaviour is exemplified and that the effects of that behaviour, and why they justify a ban, is explained. b) is irrelevant, and not really appreciated as a contribution to this discussion.

Of course, this is potentially now irrelevant, because a moderator excited by the power to ban has already popped in there and proposed the ban. I'm not imagining that quimper/darkmatter would ever contribute anything of interest, or at least of interest to me, but I'm not at all keen about the speed with which the ban button has been used to ignore anything resembling due process.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:20 / 23.09.07
Roy: that's exacly what I thought when I decided to add the second post making it clear I was not really advocating in hir defence or anything. It just struck me as really odd, and it got me thinking. But by all means, ban hir away, if such is the wish of all, or most.
 
 
The Falcon
22:22 / 23.09.07
Is this formerly known as Morpheus? I can see no very good reason, in any case, for retention.

While we're here - can we clarify if Jason Louv/BiaS has actually threatened any other members of B'lith? I seem to recall veiled hinty things about... Rosie X's(?) boyfriend, not something a muggle such as I might take terribly seriously but still, and I suppose you can't just ban someone for having a fucking ringpiece for a chum, but really if he has done so, I think the chuntering spamberk ought to be cast into the icy aether he - I'm fairly sure - richly deserves, posthaste.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:24 / 23.09.07
Delete the thread for now. The link at the top of this page will still be active.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:26 / 23.09.07
And delete Louv's link.

These aren't difficult decisions to make.
 
 
charrellz
22:31 / 23.09.07
Just for purposes of clarity, I will state here that I was the one who put in the ban request. Perhaps too hasty, but I saw a couple of requests in thread for a ban, as well as a policy thread citing previous offences, and I was stirred into action.

As I said in the ban request, I will take any flak for it being hasty overuse of the banhammer, but if there is disagreement I'm not going to storm off in a huff. If anything, I think this was a good example of what may be too soon to hit the button, but I kind of get the feeling that even if I hit the button after 3days and 50posts in this thread, there would still be dissenting voices about abuse of power.

(And just to clarify since I'm out of habit at posting style/etiquette, I'm trying to not be combative or defensive here, just aiming for full disclosure and open discussion)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:31 / 23.09.07
No, this is not Morph. Hideous though the idea might be, there is more than one poster that full of shit.

And can we keep the BiaS issue for a seperate thread, thanks? I can't be fucked to go and revisit the trainwreck tonight. If no-one's dug up the links I'll do it in the morning. (I mean what the fuck, do these guys have a fucking make everyone miserable by all showing up and being gittish at once club? Fuck. Also what.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:48 / 23.09.07
I kind of get the feeling that even if I hit the button after 3days and 50posts in this thread, there would still be dissenting voices about abuse of power.

Oh, well. That's diifferent. As long as you don't think that discussing it would have been useful, then yes, cutting out that discussion makes perfect sense. I'd be slightly annoyed with Aunt Beast, from that perspective, for starting this thread, as it risks exactly the kind of disagreement we are currently having. It would have been easier just to whack the ban request in once a few people had mentioned it. With a moderator honour system in place, somebody could be banned without anybody even knowing it had happened in the wider board, which would really save on having to explain it to the plebs.
 
 
charrellz
22:52 / 23.09.07
I waited for there to be a thread in policy asking for it, and I never for an instant thought the request would go through with no wider discussion.

And as far as a mod honour system, you know as well as I do that it doesn't take some magickal priviledge on high to be made a moderator. It mostly takes asking.

To clarify, I am not saying banning should be done behind the scenes and with no discussion. I AM saying that banning should not take a week. To be effective, I think a banning issue should be resolved within 24hours, which is probably about how long it will take for enough moderators to even see the request in the first place.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:58 / 23.09.07
Yeaahhhh...

As the red mist slowly clears, I kind of feel that Haus has a point (much as I hate to admit it, because I would very much like to not read the kind of thing that Darkmatter posts ever again).

I should have made a proper start to this thread, directing people towards more of Quimper/Darkmatter's contributions and previous discussion pertaining thereto. For that, I apologise. I also agree that now more than ever we do need to have proper banning threads before we whip out the hammer. In my defence, I can only say that Darkmatter is really a bloody awful poster and we're all very sick of him honest, which I'm suddenly acutely aware is not a very good defence.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:00 / 23.09.07
Well, at least we can assume from this that it takes moderator votes from the forum rather than in general - at least, I have no banning request to vote on, so it looks like Temple moderators only.

In which case we'd better hope there's never a spillage in aisle AF&D, as I'm not sure we HAVE eight active mods there.

WRT your other point, well, yes. I kind of thought the idea was that we would still discuss bannings as we did before, but that we no longer had to wait for Tom to act- that is, the old-style discussion would still take place, and involve the rest of the board, it would just be able to be resolved quicker. I'd still feel more comfortable with at least a couple of days back-and-forth before airlocking someone, unless it was a particularly clear-cut (and again we're back to the need for T&Cs) case.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:07 / 23.09.07
And as far as a mod honour system, you know as well as I do that it doesn't take some magickal priviledge on high to be made a moderator. It mostly takes asking.

So, the Policy discussion is a sort of time trial, to take place at the same time as the voting by the moderators, who are, as you have just said, selected not on the grounds of competence but simply by having expressed a desire to be a moderator? If somebody can come up with an argument for banning good enough to inspire the undecided either to vote for a ban or against a ban, then it has utility, but it is not a place where the ban is discussed before the move is made?

This is of particular note in the Temple, since two Temple moderators - that is, enough to prevent a banning - spoke out against the banning of the Fetch, and to the best of my knowledge neither of them has recanted that view. So, at this moment the Temple is notionally a safe redoubt for somebody who would like to behave as the Fetch did, at least until the vboting process is abandoned and Tom is called in, if banning is indeed limited to moderators of that forum - also in that case, we have a bit of an issue, because some forums have very little more than eight moderators, or fewer than eight active moderators, as Stoatie says. It also means we could find ourselves with multiple banning threads going on at once, for the moderators in a number of different fora to vote on. Is this a problem?
 
 
charrellz
23:11 / 23.09.07
Darkmatter is really a bloody awful poster and we're all very sick of him honest
Unpacking a bit, I think this could in a way be a defence and reason for banning someone, just adding the bit that the poster's behavior has been pointed out as inappropriate, and the poster has been asked to change his/her behavior, but has shown no intention of doing so in any way. This is what Darkmatter did.

Having said all that, I will agree that I may have hit the button too soon. Fine, someone veto it if it hasn't been done already, and let's get enough of this discussion hashed out so that we can get to the point of hitting the button and preventing any further disruption.

I recognize that I probably was too hasty and may still be hasty here, but I think there is no point in having a ban button if there is a fear of hitting it too soon and getting the backlash of that. I bit the bullet and hit the button because I felt it should be. Now I think it may have been hit too soon, but I don't disagree with my previous decision to ban, merely the reasoning and timing.

I see there's more posts in the thread at this time, so I'm put this up and move on to reading/responding to new things.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:17 / 23.09.07
Also: Dead Megatron, can we please not invoke mental illness as a reason for someone's problematic conduct on the board? If a person self-identifies as having mental health needs then this can be taken into consideration in various ways, eg. when someone explains that ze was unwell during an episode of problematic behaviour and apologises for same; or when someone who is known to have mental health needs is conducting hirself in such a way that ze needs to be removed from the board but who merits being removed as gently as possible. See also developmental disorders or the autism spectrum. I personally resent being the gameboard for people who like to play Pin the Diagnosis on the Weirdo, and try not to subject others to similar treatment. Even if I really don't like them.
 
 
charrellz
23:18 / 23.09.07
So, the Policy discussion is a sort of time trial, to take place at the same time as the voting by the moderators, who are, as you have just said, selected not on the grounds of competence but simply by having expressed a desire to be a moderator?

I made the decision of hitting the button under the (possibly groundless) assumption that the moderators would all wait for a full consensus in the discussion before casting lots, I just wanted to go ahead and put the ballot box in place, and assumed the rest of the moderators would know the appropriate time to finalize their decisions.

I see now that this was too hasty, or at the least quicker than some would like, and I apologize for jumping the gun, [Please note, just for clarity, that this is my full admission to the guilt of requesting a ban too soon. I apologize, and see the error in what I did.] but I still think banning is deserved in this case and I would like to see discussion moving on to this aspect of board members presenting cases for or against Darkmatter being banned.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:43 / 23.09.07
OK, so I'd like to see people's reasons why darkmatter should or should not be banned. With links and explanations of why those links are relevant to the question of whether or not he should be banned. Alternatively, if the standard required for a banning in this case should be lowered - and there may be a case for making banning a shorter process if certain preconditions are fulfilled - then let's discuss that.
 
 
Dead Megatron
00:20 / 24.09.07
Also: Dead Megatron, can we please not invoke mental illness as a reason for someone's problematic conduct on the board?

Oh yeah, no arguments here! (see my two other previous posts) My comment was just an expression of my disbelief on hir posting/discoursing style. In other words, just a more polite way to say, "what the fuck is wrong with this guy?", is all.

My position on hir banning, just to be extra clear, is of absolute neutrality.
 
 
Seth
02:53 / 24.09.07
Alternatively, if the standard required for a banning in this case should be lowered - and there may be a case for making banning a shorter process if certain preconditions are fulfilled - then let's discuss that.

I think in this case there's a good argument for a shorter process. Using Aunt Beast's Google search string above I can't see that darkmatter is anything other than a dictionary definition troll, talking rehashed ideas at us without an interest in engaging in discussion. In fact I could barely find any examples of them acting in any other way than a trolling manner going as far back as 2004 (their VALIS related topic, while asking for opinions, seems to fit the pattern of disinterest by not using the seach function to find the thread already in place, and seems to be the jumping off point for all the rehashed PKD material in subsequent monologues).

It's possible to link to all the instances of trolling behaviour, but I think it's a lot easier in this instance to search Google for darkmatter's posts simply because virtually all of them fit this pattern. This is the only one in which they show any interest in speaking to people responding to the thread, it's from well over two years ago and was framed as "Bush is bad, if you guys can really work magic then you'll do something about it." It's not sufficient for me to counterbalance all darkmatter's other posts.

When it gets the the stage where you really, really, really have to reach to find any examples of someone's posting over a three year period that isn't a clear instance of trolling I think that's sufficient to ban them without a great deal of soul searching. I've already voted with my finger in this respect and put my name to the banning action. I'm happy enough with the decision given that I am only one part of the final say and because I'm generally not the sort who is quick to call for a ban.
 
 
electric monk
02:55 / 24.09.07
I vetoed the ban. I think we probably need a leeeetle more discussion on this first. I'll be back when I have something to add to said discussion.
 
 
electric monk
03:01 / 24.09.07
Well, now I just look silly.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:05 / 24.09.07
No you don't. You did the right thing. I jumped the gun and made a very poor start to this thread; my comments were inaccurate and I did not present sufficient evidence to ask for a ban. Seth's post is more what I should have written. It may be that there is a case to be made for us to have fast-track banning, but the thing to do would be to hash that out in the public forum rather than just start doing it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:54 / 24.09.07
Okay, as I should have said in the first place:

Darkmatter is a serial troll. It's actually quite tricky, when you run a search on his nick, to find posts that are not either actively trollsome or irrelevant.

Here's the thread where he started to get ugly to the best of my recollection: Meta-rape. Topic abstract reads "Nothing is real. Babys dont remember rape!!! ergo its fine." Please note the gratuitous anti-Semitic quote in the first post.

Some of his threads were less directly offensive but still of little worth, such as We're drowning in information, Hmmm and THE META REALM, much of which consisted of material cut and pasted wholesale and uncredited from elsewhere on the net.

He also has a habit of dropping into other people's threads to leave gems like
this.

So, we have no contributions of any discernable worth weighed against a good deal of static and much which is eye-stabby. I find him worse than, say, Morph, because when he has popped up in the past he's spread himself around a lot more, starting two or three trollthreads in quick succession. I cannot see any Earthly reason why he shouldn't go out the airlock in short order. Thoughts, please?
 
 
Quantum
08:08 / 24.09.07
there may be a case for making banning a shorter process if certain preconditions are fulfilled - then let's discuss that. Chaus Majickian

I think this is an excellent example of a candidate for fast track banning. I'm more concerned that there is no way 8 votes is a workable threshold for a ban, even for the busiest fora.

So, a shorter banning process- new thread? I'm thinking we ban people out of hand for anti-semitism and obvious hate speech etc. and have long dreary debates about people who behave badly, Darkmatter is kind of middle ground- clearly trollish, exemplifying the behaviour we want to exclude from the Temple, but not obviously troll enough for the out-of-hand ban.
Whatever happens on the quickban discussion, I'd like to ban darkmatter, as baby raping and crap numerology are not what the Temple is about. In the meantime, I will be proposing locks and deletions of crap stuff, and copying it here as evidence for the ban.
 
 
Quantum
08:09 / 24.09.07
Thoughts, please?

Crosspost, I entirely agree.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:35 / 24.09.07
Sorry if someone is a blatant troll then why involve the whole board? Darkmatter's posts are nasty and he's engaging in classic trolling and as someone who is not a Temple moderator I don't actually need to have a say in this case and neither should anyone else. When you have a troll like this the reference material should be included in the banning request and the rest of barbelith doesn't need to be involved.

I mean for fuck's sake, this isn't a playground, we don't all need to be part of the gang especially when the decision is as obvious as this one.
 
  

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