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What will the tories do today?

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
12:47 / 04.08.08
Possibly true, but then don't a lot of the tories rather like the idea of women staying at home to look after the kids while the husband - because they're married, obvs. - goes out to work? There's at least as much potential for misogyny there.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:54 / 04.08.08
Also, having come across the whole article, I find the whole 'Lad mags = cause of social breakdown', as opposed to 'Economic shit = cause of social breakdown, lad mags exploitative symptom', idea totally bollocks ...
 
 
Thorn Davis
13:16 / 04.08.08
Possibly true, but then don't a lot of the tories rather like the idea of women staying at home to look after the kids while the husband - because they're married, obvs. - goes out to work? There's at least as much potential for misogyny there.

I don't know about that - it seems like an inelegant characature. In the area in which I live, the Tory voters tend to be dual income families living in huge houses and wondering why poor people - insofar as they think of them at all - don't just get better jobs. There may be 'a lot' - however you quantify that - of Tory voters who do think that women should stay at home but Michael Gove isn't saying that. I'm sure 'a lot' (what did you mean by 'a lot' by the way? <100? That's quite a lot) of voters for - say - the Labour party might have racist viewpoints but it doesn't mean it would be wrong for a Labour politician to single out representations of racism as unhelpful. Unless there's a drive from the Tories to get women to cover up and get indoors, which there may be. I don't know. But the comment didn't stike me as inherently hypocritical.
 
 
Thorn Davis
13:21 / 04.08.08
I find the whole 'Lad mags = cause of social breakdown', as opposed to 'Economic shit = cause of social breakdown, lad mags exploitative symptom', idea totally bollocks

Yeah, but that's for the shadow chancellor to come out and say - generally the way it works is that there'll be a member of the party assigned to a particular element of government (foreign affairs, economics, education, culture etc). I'm sure at some point between now and the next election that Tories will also claim that the economic 'shit' has been the cause of social breakdown.
 
 
jentacular dreams
15:13 / 04.08.08
Are we talking recent economic shit or about the country's economic foundations? Because AFAIK the lads mags started to emerge in the post-recession recovery period of the mid 90's, and Nuts and Zoo didn't appear until the earlyish 2000s (03-04 I think), when aside from the dotcom bubble the economy was all pretty solid.

I agree that the mags are largely symptomatic rather than causal (though obviously they may help sow some of the seeds of their own disease). But I can't help but wonder how popular these magazines are outside of the UK, and whether they correlate well with gender inequality, or whether they're a largely British blight?
 
 
trouble at bill
13:31 / 05.08.08
This is just a throwaway thought but there's an assumption in everything that's been said re: Lads' Mags, by Tories or 'Lithers, that such publications are taken as reality by readers and influence said readers' attitudes and behaviour. Is that necessarily the case? It seems to me to be a little simplistic, and reminiscent of the 'violent films/video games/hip-hop lyrics = murders' trope which the Tories often spout which never goes unchallenged round here. Don't readers of Lad Mags know that the women in them are not really real in any unproblematic sense? (Or am I giving them too much credit?)

And even if you disagree with that, I can't really see a significant ideological difference between a lad mag and an old style porn mag and so I don't get why the Tories think this problem is in any way a new one. Or why they're focussing on lad mags as opposed to any of the other swathes of media content which is often said to portray women in a questionable fashion.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:48 / 06.08.08
Yes, it's the old 'laissez-faire capitalism doesn't kill people x do!' argument from blistering ignorance and a sheltered position of wealth and privilege. Sure, search a rapists house and you may find a copy of Zoo, just as a murderer may well have played GTAIII. Proving a real link between these things and a breakdown in society is next to impossible which is why it's easy for lazy MPs and Daily Mail journos to do it because it fills the column inches and is equally difficult to disprove.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
08:15 / 06.08.08
I don't really think the equivalence with the old music&games arguments works. For starters, there are plenty of artistic reasons one might include things which are awful in real life in music and video games. Lads' mags don't really have that excuse; the misogynistic representation of women is more or less the whole point of the magazines. The extent to which they contribute to a misogynistic culture rather than beingmerely symptomatic of it is, for me, up in the air, but I'm finding it hard to think of reasons why yr standard lads' mag isn't really pretty shitty.

As to the distinction with "real" porn, I'd assume the reasoning is based on "acceptability". Obviously, the latter is consumed in vast quantities, but it still retains a level of taboo; it's not read in the same casual way, and the majority of people probably wouldn't rifle through it on a train or leave it on their kitchen table when someone came round. I think there may also be an argument relating to the ways in which the two formats are used. By far the most common use for "real" porn is as a masturbatory aid. The consumption of lads' mags is possibly less clear-cut; undoubtedly, they're still used regularly for the same purpose, but they're also used for, for example, bonding purposes - the bonding often taking the form of giggling and sharing dodgy views about the women depicted.

(Incidentally, Gove talked about "families without fathers". I think it's pretty clear what school of "feminism" he's adhering to in making these remarks.)
 
 
Thorn Davis
10:02 / 06.08.08
Incidentally, Gove talked about "families without fathers". I think it's pretty clear what school of "feminism" he's adhering to in making these remarks

No, I think that's too much of a leap to make. In the context of identifying material that's breeding a culture of blitheness and irresponsibility in men it's not anti-feminist to suggest father's take a more responsible attitude towards their families, for starters not running out on them. How could that be a bad thing and how is it clearly anti feminist?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:01 / 06.08.08
Dudes, we're missing an absolute treat here. Tory may face jail for alternative campaigning methods. I was particularly tickled by the decision, having sent neighbours of a Lib Dem councillor a warning that he was part of a child abuse ring, to help jolly things along by taking it upon himself to spray-paint "scum scum perv" on his house. This should be the next iteration of Dance Dance Revolution.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:53 / 06.08.08
This is just a throwaway thought but there's an assumption in everything that's been said re: Lads' Mags, by Tories or 'Lithers, that such publications are taken as reality by readers and influence said readers' attitudes and behaviour. Is that necessarily the case?

Not in the simple way it's made out to be, no.

On the other hand - and I don't want to give credence to the sort of arrant stupidity Lady pointed out above - I do think that your perception of things in the world which you haven't directly seen is modified by the medium through which you come to know about them. Of course, if I can 'see' this process then so can everyone else. It's not about people having weak permeable minds vulnerable to corruption etc, but about having fewer frames of reference to work with.

Everything I know about shooting and guns, for example, comes from video-games and films, and is probably completely innacurate. Obviously in the case of who women are, and what the rules of treating other people are, and in what ways you have to respect other people's bodies and brains, the person is going to have real experience day to day as well as whatever they find in whatever media surround them.

There's also the fact that the situations one finds in lad's mags are constructed in all sorts of ways, but disguise their own construction and claim to be the natural.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:56 / 06.08.08
And by that I mean that I too could be tricked by a lot of it.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
11:18 / 10.08.08
Lads mags are propped up by the real time behaviour of women and they're far more difficult to separate from reality as a result of that. How many women in your workplace and on your shopping street are wearing absolutely no make up? Can you spot the difference when you don't know a woman? A lot of people can't and that's because their cultural association with make up is built by images of women consistently wearing it. That doesn't make lads mags the pinnacle of wrong, they just emphasise the acceptability of subverting and containing women's bodies in ways that don't happen with men's bodies.
 
 
Not Here Still
16:32 / 10.08.08
"We should ask those who make profits out of reveling in, or encouraging, selfish irresponsibility among young men what they think they're doing."

Or, failing that, "solicit donations" from them for our constituency parties...
 
 
imaginary mice
14:46 / 12.08.08
Why add another runway at Heathrow? Why not just build another London airport instead? An “eco-friendly” one of course. From scratch. And by 2012.

(Thank God this man isn’t the mayor of London. Oh wait…)
 
  

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