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Underground > Policy & Help >

Tom! The Board Is Broken!

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14:31 / 09.07.07

I think it's a shortcut key in Firefox. Try here or here for (hacky) fixes.

14:38 / 09.07.07

It is a legit shortkey key to 'Find as you type' in Firefox but it shouldn't activate if you've got focus set on an actual textbox. I've seen this problem before where it suddenly starts activating even when someone is typing in a proper textbox but, the last time I looked into it, it was a known and inconsistently manifesting issue that no one had found a proper fix for sadly.

19:45 / 09.07.07

Thanks - weird it should suddenly happen on this particular thread.

14:12 / 10.07.07

OK, so to recap:

* Need banning/freezing mechanism placed in hands of current moderators.

* Need moderator lists cleaned of bygone moderators.

* Would like some kind of captcha or *something* for the wiki (blocking specific members, even - many of the spam edits are from the same randoms string of numbers and letters).

I think that's it in order of importance.

Is that about right?

14:18 / 10.07.07

Yes

Phex: Dorset Doom

14:49 / 10.07.07

Have we agreed on how many Mods have to approve a freeze/ban before it goes through? Should we say two for a freeze, five for a ban? How long would the freezes be?

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:04 / 10.07.07

That isn't going to happen, at least until the board software is totally reprogrammed, so there's not a lot of point in discussing it here. What we have at the moment is a rough agreement that Randy and I will contact Tom when we feel that a banning thread has reached a logical conclusion either way. Either has the power to disagree with the timing or the conclusion, in which case it goes to arbitration, probably by Tom reading the discussion. It's ugly, but it means the gap between banning thread winding down and banning will be shorter.

16:22 / 24.07.07

I'm assuming everyone has noticed the image link on the main page and simply isn't mentioning it out of politeness.

16:25 / 24.07.07

Yup.

20:27 / 24.07.07

Hey, it just got fixeded!

23:41 / 24.07.07

In response to what kicked off here:
I like the idea of DM, but I don't actually know how effective or ineffective it is, not being a moderator and knowing what goes on there. I only have some vague impression from the discussions here in Policy. Perhaps if there was more plasticity in the board software, it could be made to function better. But maybe Spatula is right, and it's really not all it's cracked up to be. Like I said, no real idea here.

As far as the next possible generation of the board. I personally don't have the same frustration as many others about the lack of functionality. But that doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that so many are frustrated. So, barring the unbelievable impossibility of Tom changing things, the option is for someone else to start another parallel board that is appealing enough and functional enough to draw the active members from here to there. It would have to be a long-standing and respected poster here in order to have the credibility, and it would have to look cool, hopefully be functional, and not be just a standard ugly-ass vbulletin-type thing. That person (or persons, if they can coordinate) would have to invest the time, effort, and money for traffic and hosting, and have the personal investment to stay in it for the long haul—or make some contingency for it. I suppose that donations could help out again, but I don't think that could necessarily be depended on in the first place.
So, which one(s) of you are up for it? *claps hands and rubs them together vigorously*

09:19 / 25.07.07

and it would have to look cool

I am basically sold on the idea of a parallel/replacement board (but haven't got the time or energy to do it myself), but lets not get too hung up on things like the looks. I suppose looks aren't a big issue for me in part because I have never really liked the rainbow, and don't see it as any better than the "standard ugly-ass vbulletin-type thing".

09:40 / 25.07.07

Honestly, I was being a little facetious about the look, though I think it is somewhat important that it has some sense of unique style. Whether you like the rainbow or not, it is distinctive, and these things make a difference if you spend much time looking at them. The way some of those boards look, I seriously don't know if I could stand it for any length of time. Maybe I'm just superficial.

semioticrobotic

11:15 / 25.07.07

I'm not opposed to movement, but I would hate to see distributed moderation lost in transition. That very mechanism is a significant part of what attracts me to Barbelith in the first place. I also think, to maintain a sense of history, the board's archives should make the move, too. Would that be a matter of importing a MySQL database?

12:38 / 25.07.07

I also think, to maintain a sense of history, the board's archives should make the move, too. Would that be a matter of importing a MySQL database?

No one (except Tom) has access to the database and the current position is that no one (except Tom) is going to get access to the database. Basically, any idea that involves building on or using the current Barbelith data and/or codebase is doomed to failure and better forgotten lest people get frustrated at being reminded of all the shiny things they'd like and can never have.

jentacular dreams

14:22 / 25.07.07

But surely the old database could be moved across without importing stuff like email addresses with it? Or would the content of posts themselves constitute a breach of data protection?

I'm sure I remember coming across a post in an old thread where Tom mentions that bandwidth was constrained as it appeared that someone was trying to download the entire site at the time? If they can do it, why not we? Especialy if we get Tom's permission to do so?

Tryphena Absent

14:58 / 25.07.07

I think the question here is this: how difficult is it to make to a beutiful woman when you're thinking about the barbelith codebase?

15:32 / 25.07.07

My goodness, Anna, what are you proposing??

Our Lady Has Left the Building

16:34 / 25.07.07

I don't care about shifting the history over. We lost it once and we survived. I'd certainly want any replacement to run in parallel to this old place until we're sure we could keep it going (I don't mean post identical things in both boards, but refer to old threads here as needed). I don't mind having some of the old conversations with new people, by keeping this places application policy we should hopefully have less of an issue with people who want to discuss their exciting new theories about the Holocaust or women).

Phex: Dorset Doom

16:50 / 25.07.07

Also, it wouldn't be hard to cut'n'paste active threads, or even older threads, into The Bride of Barbelith (tah for the image there Anna) if we really needed them. Is the site archived by Archive.org? If so then we have a handy graveyard from which to steal parts of old threads.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

17:20 / 25.07.07

So, barring the unbelievable impossibility of Tom changing things, the option is for someone else to start another parallel board that is appealing enough and functional enough to draw the active members from here to there.

It seems this is what people thought I was suggesting or trying to do earlier, and actually my thoughts were a bit different:

Rather than *one person* making a new Barbelith which is, because that one person was really good at guessing, a more attractive alternative to the current Barbelith...what (I think) needs to happen is a big fat consensus. There needs to be a whole Team of people voting/consensusing on what the new board should be called, where to put it, how to design it, what it looks like, who the moderators are, etc.

It's been said before that of all the thousands of registered members, you could summarize Barbelith as being made mostly of 50 or so really active members and a lot of lurkers, infrequent posters (hi! that's me), and old accounts. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to try to get most or all of those hypothetical 50 people to vote on a few things like a name or a site theme. And if the main core people make the new board together, and start using it together, it will *be* the new Barbelith sort of automatically. Whether or not the other 4,950 people decide to come along will barely matter.

Making people involved in the process will make them support the new board. It'll be *their* board.

Having just one person, or one group of people, make the new board - even if it were Randy and Haus and Grant or something - is only going to get you back to the same place you are now: Superperson goes on vacation, gets a new job, etc, and suddenly no one is running the board. Not to mention it's obvious that no one here is interested in doing all the work of said Superperson.

09:50 / 26.07.07

I don't see it like that, pb. If Randy or Haus, say, started a new board (with standard software) it would have the functionality that we lack here. I am certain it would also be easy to make moderators who have banning powers, or even share admin powers so as to make more fundamental change possible. After all, there are plenty of long time posters here who can be trusted with these sorts of powers, and it is pretty wierd set of circumstances that we find ourselves in here where Tom neither has the time to administrate, nor the ability to delegate.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

13:31 / 26.07.07

I suppose that's true.

I still think it'd be a lot easier to generate interest and membership in a new board if most of the more functioning members were involved as much as possible in it's creation. Right now what it feels like to me is a bunch of people standing around with their hands in their pockets, not looking at each other, muttering "SOMEBODY ought to do something". The more of a group effort it is, the less this will be Somebody's board, the easier and more fun the transition (ought) to be.

Then again maybe it will be more like when you're with a dozen friends and you're trying to decide where to go for lunch and it takes four hours to make up the collective mind. I suppose it might actually be easier/faster for one person or small group to take charge. But less likely, I think, to be what everyone wants and where everyone goes.

Bah, maybe it's none of my business, I'm not a big piece of the board. Just trying to be helpful. Maybe the board's not "broken" enough to make people really push for a solution...

15:45 / 26.07.07

The biggest problem facing us wrt setting up a new board is that, as far as I can tell, all of the long-term or otherwise well-trusted posters who have the required techie know-how have effectively given up on the place anyway, moved on. I wouldn't have the first idea where to start.

16:14 / 26.07.07

I can't really see any reason why Tom would not allow people to get the forum export from the database. As other posters have already mentioned it would be possible to get this information from web sucking barbelith.com or using
The Internet Archive. Obviously he would be reluctant to export PMs, but I don't see any real need for them to be ported anyway.

Are there any existing threads where users have talked about what they would like to see in a Barbelith 2.0? I know there are thread discussing 'topics of concern', in particular banning and admissions, but is there a single place here or on the wiki where people have argued the case for another implementation of the board and what features they would like?

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

18:52 / 26.07.07

I think anyone capable of posting on Barbelith, using PMs, linking to stuff, etc, is more than technically capable of setting up a DIY board. the prepackaged ones kind of set themselves up for you. you'd get 95% of what Barbelith can do right now, plus all the new stuff you'd like to improve.

really, I did it in about 5 minutes. nothing to it.

I'm not sure how easy it is to find the distributed moderator system, though. that might be a unique feature and implementing it might be difficult or impossible at most free board sites. I'm not really sure.

19:22 / 26.07.07

I'm not that keen on distributed moderation, tbh. It doesn't really work except to create lots of work and mostly give the illusion of participation in the admin of the board.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:56 / 26.07.07

Well it doesn't even do that in a lot of cases, since a lot of people don't bloody bother to read the FAQ on DM before going off into one about Teh Evol Mods.

semioticrobotic

12:33 / 27.07.07

I think anyone capable of posting on Barbelith, using PMs, linking to stuff, etc, is more than technically capable of setting up a DIY board. the prepackaged ones kind of set themselves up for you. you'd get 95% of what Barbelith can do right now, plus all the new stuff you'd like to improve.

really, I did it in about 5 minutes. nothing to it.

Well, yes, true, except that five minutes will be followed by a much longer period of time spent tweaking the prepackaged system to resemble the Barbelith we've come to know and love: to disallow avatars and signatures, to restrict suit/name changes to one per month, to enable distributed moderation, to facilitate a temporary ignore function, and to give it a visual identity as unique and pronounced as its current iteration. Whether or not these tweaks are simply or difficult to perform will depend on our choice of board software and our dedication/adherence to board history.

13:39 / 27.07.07

I think that all of the changes you mention, Bryan, are things that I personally am not particularly attached to. Sure, it would take a lot of effort to make a new board look and feel like Barbelith. But why would that even be a desirable goal?

15:40 / 27.07.07

But why would that even be a desirable goal?

If we didn't like most of the way Barbelith operates, we probably wouldn't be here, yeah? Or have stuck through when these changes came in.

I like the place being low of avatars and sigs. I like the distribution system for moderation.

I'm assuming the Ignore function has actually been of use to people.

15:54 / 27.07.07

But these things aren't set in stone, any board that had bannability gets my vote.

16:48 / 27.07.07

If we didn't like most of the way Barbelith operates, we probably wouldn't be here, yeah? Or have stuck through when these changes came in.

But Im here, and Im not particularly fussed about the technicals of the way Barbelith operates, except for the fact that we have an absent administrator. Im with Quantum, and any board that has a ban feature is probably ok by me.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

19:48 / 27.07.07

no avatars or sigs was, I think, pretty much clicking an option box or not.

the other stuff might be lots of work or not even possible with a pre-built site.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

19:54 / 27.07.07

also - making the board function in a way that promotes the kind of discussion which people come to Barbelith to get, is important. if this means distributed moderation, limited suit changes, and ignore buttons, then these things are important.

making the site look exactly like Barbelith is not at all, I am guessing, vital to making Barbelith 2.0 viable. if I'm not mistaken, one of the things people don't like is the name itself and it's connection to Grant Morrison and thereby some of the new people who come to the site for reasons which are less important than they used to be. part of making a whole new site will be making a new theme for the board - or anyway trying to define what the theme of this board has become - and a new name for the new board, and correspondingly a new look. besides, isn't the current look sort of Tom's property?

making the new site look cool probably is very important. but you've got a whole forum full of Creation people to help you tweak it. fancying the place up would be an ongoing process for, well, forever. make an Aesthetics committee of people who would actually want to, and let them worry about that stuff.

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