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Underground > Comic Books >

How would you make Spidey’s identity secret again?

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16:23 / 05.12.07

Again, it baffles me why Marvel would choose a magical deus ex machina nonsensical explanation to fulfill a plot point that could be easily executed using the core of the character. I have no clue what's up with Spider-Man currently, but it would seem easy enough to do a story where Peter gets seriously injured, MJ tells him it's too dangerous for you to be Spiderman, if you keep at it, I'm leaving you, he says he won't give it up, she walks out. That gives you a clear narrative, Peter tries to get MJ back, or you could do the opposite and have him reject her and take up with the Black Cat out of spite or something.

Point is, I came up with that in two minutes, you'd think Marvel would be able to do the same thing. What kind of narrative does just erasing the marriage give you, and more importantly, how does that sort of magical stuff relate to the character's central appeal, being the everyman superhero?

03:58 / 06.12.07

Joe Q. didn't want to do a storyline where they have a fight like the one you describe; he didn't want a separation or divorce (as that had already been done in comics years ago, and he felt further martial problems/disputes would stain a pretty squeaky-clean character like Peter Parker). Not defending his train of thought, just explaining that he didn't want to take the angle you mention here. He has said many times; 'you can't kill MJ, you can't divorce them or have them go through a separation, so what do you do?' (of course, he's operating from the idea that it's a bad thing if they're married, which many disagree with, like myself)

Our Lady Has Left the Building

12:51 / 06.12.07

Patrick, didn't they tease around the edges of that a few years ago when Peter and MJ seperated for a while?

Basically, if the Spidey comics are losing sales then blaming that on MJ isn't going to do anything to halt that downward decline.

Professor Silly

18:59 / 13.12.07

My reason for concluding the girl was the daughter he'll never have? Here's the line she speaks: "I'm very smart for my age. I take after my dad that way...but frankly I'd rather take after my mom. She's beautiful."

I suppose one could interpret that differently...but it just seems to fit...especially with her then saying "what if I never grow up?"

That said I'm not terribly surprised that JMS wanted to take his name off the last two issues...this storyline seems so contrived compared to everything else in his run. That editorial direction is to blame makes perfect sense.

Spyder Todd 2008

23:16 / 13.12.07

That said I'm not terribly surprised that JMS wanted to take his name off the last two issues...this storyline seems so contrived compared to everything else in his run. That editorial direction is to blame makes perfect sense.

I hate to play devil's advocate here, but let's be honest. While I agree entirely that editorial has their grubby little hands all over this, JMS' run on Spider-Man has, frankly, been the very definition of contrived, even if you ignore Doctor Doom crying at the World Trade Center.

The Green Goblin having sex with Gwen Stacey, producing two grown children from the act? Spider-Man dieing from a vaguely defined disease, having his eye eaten by the bad guy, flat lining, EATING THE BAD GUY'S HEAD, then waking up the next day and feeling fine? Randomly revealing his identity, so that... umm... I'm still not sure what his motivation on that one was supposed to be.

Oh, and let's not forget randomly growing claws that can come out of his wrist... for some reason.

I mostly enjoyed the early part of Straczynski's run on Spider-Man, to be honest. But after around the 500th issue, it started a downward spiral that went from horrible character assassination to outright stupid garbage, in my opinion. I tried to stick with it after Sins Past, but it just stopped being enjoyable in any way. And frankly, pointlessly destroying Mary Jane and Peter's marriage is just another in a long line of blatantly terrible ideas that have encompassed his run.

But that's just my opinion.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:57 / 14.12.07

It was good that he wore the black costume for a bit, though, to show he was upset. Many young people wear black because they feel upset, and this storyline may have helped to make Spiderman easier to rela- ahahahahahahahahahaha sorry I can't go on -

03:35 / 15.12.07

I haven't read a single issue since the original "black costume" saga back in he 80's?, but for some reason I want to read this new run. Maybe it is he promise of Phil Jimenez' art or Bacholaco's art or maybe it is a new spin on everything-Daily Bugle being turned into a property owned by a Rupert Murdoch type or the fact that there will be new villians or just the premise that Spiderman will be returning to his semiroots-conflicting superheroics with girlfriends/rent/job security,great hairstyles and fashion statements. Maybe I've just been influenced too much by essential Spiderman volume 2. Who knows, but I am willing to give Dan Slott's version a try even though I do not want to fork over $9.00 a month. Looks like I will be scourging he bargain bns for the other issues.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

17:52 / 29.12.07

Apparently Joe Quesada has got his way. It would be funny if all the fans that are pissed off about this actually stop buying the comic now.

Yeah, right.

21:44 / 29.12.07

one guy in the comments section of that blog post said one interesting bit: by trying to 'save' one character, they've killed 3, possibly a whole subset of the Marvel Universe.

how does this al ties with the recent status quo changes brought by Civil War and the Skrull Invasion that's just started developing? weird.

as far as business decisions go, how much momentum building can readers take [they'll buy it anyway, i know], if this is still another quick gimmick that'll be retconned again to bring back Pete's marriage?

ONE MORE DAY so far has just worked as to show how bad an idea revealing Spidey's identity it was. and the medicine is even worse.

11:28 / 30.12.07

if they were going to reverse Spidey's age, they'd better go all the way before THIS had happened.

05:48 / 31.12.07

I think ditching the marriage (for a awhile) is a good idea. Spider Man worked best when Peter's life was a soap opera and having him all settled down limits story potential as well as makes MJ into a stock charcter (wife is worried, wife is mad, wife is in danger, etc, etc). As I grew up with a single Spider Man, the marriage always, always, always seemed superflous and off to me (and who the hell made MJ a super-model?! ugh!).

I also believe that splitting them up was not the way to go either. For all his troubles and travails, Peter, like Clark Kent, is "the good son" etc and having him divorce does not stay faithful to the core character concept. Better to hit the reset/reboot button and that means outlandish! plot! twists!. I doubt if there was an elegant way to accompish this really: erasing all that continuity almost demands some sort of reality warping/magical element.

I have not been particularly into SM in a very long time (although I did love the JMS/Ezikiel/Spider Totem arc(s)), but with the slate wiped clean, I am really psyched for a fresh start. In the short and long run, I think this might be one of the best things to happen to the comics franchise since Ultimate SM debuted.

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

06:35 / 31.12.07

Apparently Joe Quesada has got his way. It would be funny if all the fans that are pissed off about this actually stop buying the comic now.

Read that link, and I have to say I don't care all that much about the marriage, or how it was disposed of. But Harry Osborn being alive - now that's really fucked up.

09:54 / 31.12.07

Mark, good people divorce too. it's the 90's, man! ;-D

18:51 / 31.12.07

a number of blogs and readers are commenting about the fact that Marvel & Joe Q. are saying 'divorce would be too horrible and set a bad example, but MAKING A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL is far preferable.' True 'dat, as the kids say.

19:39 / 31.12.07

Now Mephisto's fulfilled Pete's deepest, innermost wish (in the sense that Pete's been allowed to return to a solitary mid-twenties life of struggle at work, listless self-abuse in front of a pay per view channel, and this one last thing he does in the evening that makes him feel alive - for most people, it's going out to night clubs and try to pick up phone numbers of hott chicks/connections for coke; Pete fights crime instead, but really, that detail aside, how different is he from you or I?) shouldn't he just fill in Aunt May in any case? Just for good measure?

Presumably, Pete has met the Ghost Rider, during his adventures, over the years. He no doubt delivered a sanctimonious lecture, too. 'John, you shouldn't have done that' etc

I've a few ideas about where the franchise might be going next. But it would be like 'Spawn'. A darker, harder-edged and more graphically violent 'Spawn'.

I don't see any way back for Pete now.

Quel fool, eh readers?

Spyder Todd 2008

20:09 / 31.12.07

You know what I miss? I miss a Spider-Man who was fun. I know that Peter because his life sometimes gets really icky now and then, but he always found a way to press on. I grew up watching the 90s Spider-Man cartoon, you know, and I recently downloaded it and I'm almost through rewatching it. And damnit, it's FUN. Sure, it's ridiculous (although Kingpin is pretty much the best ever in it), but its cool, its fun, and damn if those writers didn't know how to keep a story moving. I can watch it and totally see why it made me fall in love with Spidey and his zany world.

And now... Spider-Man just made a Faustian pact to... end his marriage and bring back Harry Osborn? Oh, and not let Aunt May die, I guess. (Though she died in Amazing #400, still one of if not THE best Spidey comics ever, in my opinion.)

Oh, and Gwen got preggers by the Green Goblin.

And Spider-Man ate this guy's head.

And he died and came back... some how.

And what was with Morlun, anyway? Did he ever get an actual origin beyond "he eats superheroes"?

But hey, if they've reset Spidey continuity back to the 80s, that means that JMS's run never happened, right? Yay!
But what about Black Cat? I love Black Cat. Maybe this could undue Kevin Smith's work too!

And Mary Jane being a super model was always silly. But hey, that's Spider-Man for you. He used to fight a guy named the Walrus, remember?

Keith, like a scientist

23:14 / 31.12.07

Let me get this straight (because I stopped reading ASM awhile back, when we had that faux-Solomon Grundy storyline):

1. Peter and MJ never married
2. Aunt May alive again
3. Peter is younger
4. Spider-Girl never happened
5. Harry Osborn alive again
6. Secret identity back

How is this not time travel? Do we know for a fact that Peter's new situation is in the present?

03:32 / 01.01.08

a number of blogs and readers are commenting about the fact that Marvel & Joe Q. are saying 'divorce would be too horrible and set a bad example, but MAKING A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL is far preferable.' True 'dat, as the kids say.

Snap!

Above, I did not mean to say that divorce was negative or horrible: just that as SM's curators, I'd imagine Marvel might be reticent at having a character who appears in cartoons/merch/toys etc a divorcee, esp their major icon. That's the kind of tawdry behavior they can fob off on Hank "Slugger" Pym.

(and what consenting adults get up to with the devil behind closed doors is nobody's damn business).

15:50 / 01.01.08

I don't think Peter is younger now. He's the same age he was (some vague late 20s/early 30s thing) before the deal with Mephisto, as I understand it.

And Joe Q. has hinted at times that there is an overall plan in place - a story arc that, perhaps, will take maybe 2-3 years to play out, where of course MJ and Peter find their way to each other again. (MJ's whispering to Peter in the final issue of One More Day may be her idea about how to outwit the Devil; since 'deal with the Devil' stories often have the humans beating ol' Nick Scratch at his own game through cleverness)

Our Lady Has Left the Building

15:54 / 01.01.08

Oh, so they've also undone the whole thing with Aunt May knowing Peter is Spidey too? Because that was a JMS issue I liked, where they talked about it much like adults would. It's a shame if that's also not going to happen, because of change being bad and all.

16:08 / 01.01.08

An' another thing ...

Pete's sordid deal with the powers of the darque will have affected not just him, presumably, but everyone he's mates with in the Marvel universe. Wolverine or Tony Stark ... all right, they've probably got other things to worry about these days, and may well not notice that reality as they understand it has been fundamentally altered, they'll just not mention the wife, but is Dr Strange going to take this shit lying down?! And what about Professor X? If he still has his powers at the moment, he's bound to worry. Surely Mephisto's actually now more of a threat the skrulls, the Hood, the Red Skull and Mr Sinister all rolled into one?

Perhaps this stuff'll be addressed, and perhaps it won't (though I'm guessing the latter) but either way, the fact that it's been raised in the first place is simply not germane to the character's milieu I mean there'd no doubt some narrative mileage in turning Daredevil into a pig for twelve or so issues ('my limbs, they seem strange to me now ... the women in my life don't understand me ... well, plus ca change, but I can't show up in court like this ...) but I suppose the fans would be justifiably bewildered.

As with Jeph! Loeb's! recent efforts with 'The Ultimates', (for which, if I knew I could get away with it, and nobody was hurt in the process, I would gladly set fire to his car); while on the hand it's good to have people talking about one's work as a comics writer, it's equally arguably less so if all they're commenting on is how depressing it is.

16:12 / 01.01.08

Well, to be completely clear, the idea for "OMD" was actually created by a room full of people.

16:24 / 01.01.08

one other thing: i've been reading these special interviews with JQ and thinking "so how is this deal with the devil not a divorce, even metaphorically speaking?"

the couple chose to split in the end, by the Devil's making or otherwise. actually, it takes the burden out of them; "the devil made me do it", so to speak [ok, not really].

the only bit that leaves an """""interesting""""" semi-opened door [besides the whispering scene] is the sadness in Peter at the toast take: so he and MJ might have vague recollections of their pact and be able reverse it in the future when the gimmick no longer has effect on sales?

i don't know, JQ's [and the writing commitee's] heavy hand on this didn't make it good. Spider-Man i guess was never supposed to be this plagued with retcons based in phoned-in ideas

it should be more fun and simpler in a urban adventurous sense - and melodama in magical\cosmic levels doesn't do it any good. even the Clone Saga looks great in comparison.

16:48 / 01.01.08

Thanks for the link, HL.

Seventy five quid, plus a plane ticket is, I believe, the going rate these days. But if anyone knows anyone more local, that would be good too. I'd certainly, hypothetically (PM about this) pay extra for a thorough job.

17:25 / 01.01.08

I always wondered if JMS wanted to use the favor Loki owed Spider-Man (from early in JMS' run) as the way to erase the world's knowledge that Peter is Spidey, and perhaps the way he ended up losing MJ as well (an additional price for that favor, something like that...?)

Good question about "Does Aunt May still know Peter is Spidey?" Time will tell. But this hasn't gone back in time so much as just pressed the reboot button on Peter's relationship status, and Harry. At least, thus far...

Our Lady Has Left the Building

19:02 / 01.01.08

Oh and Quesada wanted to bring back Gwen Stacey too?

19:07 / 01.01.08

Well, basically if you want to redact the character's status Q to it's 1963-72 heydey, you might as well go the whole Archie comics/Lana-Lois hog. Better that than the, what, 73-87 DeFalco/Conway/etc/etc/no-one really much cares era.

11:14 / 04.01.08

Peter Parker is the guy never allowed to JUST-LET-GO.

i remember an arc [from early 90s?] by JM DeMatteis and Sal Buscema in which Peter is put through the burdens of his guilt for the deaths of Uncle Ben and his own parents.

he came out of the gruelling experience - literally, crawling from a cave in a feargas-fuelled hallucination - a more enlightened man who forgives himself, finally. that was genious.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

16:28 / 04.01.08

Quesada's best tactic would really be to refuse to all future interviews and questions on the subject of Spiderman because he can't make any convincing excuses for this. The very fact that it seems like a reset to thirty years ago is such a giveaway, harking back to a 'silver age' where little Joey Q could look at the pretty pictures and ask an adult to help him with the long words. And for all of you who are in to the whole Skrull thing at the moment, congratulations! Joe admits that he's pretty much screwed up MU continuity to get his way and left it for other writers to try and sort out the mess. And you thought things were confused already?

18:26 / 04.01.08

And if all else fails, work with the UN!

Spyder Todd 2008

00:27 / 05.01.08

Everything that happened in “Civil War” happened, the unmasking happened, people just don’t remember whose face was under the mask. Tony Stark also did something like this when he brainwashed the world to forget he was Iron Man. They remember the event, but they can no longer recall who the guy under the mask was. This again was the reason why we went with this Faustian pack story as opposed to shifting way too many continuity blocks. It doesn’t cause all of those past Spider-man stories to be discounted. Almost all of that stuff that happened, happened, except Peter and MJ weren’t married.

As I said before, is it perfect? No. But it keeps years of history from being wiped out and collections from being destroyed. Those were the issues we had to weigh.

I just... I can't get my head wrapped around this guy. Joey Q really, really is crazy, isn't he? "People just don't remember who was under the mask"? Da fug? So... Peter and MJ never married, Harry is no longer dead... but the last 20 years of Spidey stories are in no way discredited. Of course not. Everything is exactly the same as before.

Do you think Joey Q sells drugs? I bet he would have really, really good drugs.
All this to fix a problem that never existed except in Quesada's head...

01:08 / 05.01.08

Indeed, all because it would make Peter Parker too unsympathetic to be divorced. So, isn't 616 Spiderman now retconned to be essentially like Ultimate Spiderman, only older? At least being married gave 616 Spidey something different.

That said, if there's no such thing as bad press, Joe Q and his team came up with a great tactic. Make a story so outlandishly ridiculous, everyone's talking about it. When's the last time anyone cared about 616 Spiderman the way they do now? And, amidst those haters, you probably do have a bunch of people saying, you know what, if everything is so rebooted, maybe I'll give the new book a look.

But, you can only tear down your backstory so many times before it becomes completely meaningless. Between this and House of M, Marvel are getting closer to the point where the universe has no clear throughline, and thus no reason to be loyal to the characters.

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

04:12 / 05.01.08

And, amidst those haters, you probably do have a bunch of people saying, you know what, if everything is so rebooted, maybe I'll give the new book a look.

Yeah, there's a part of me that wants to pick up some of the new issues, just to see what the hell the deal is with Harry. I'm not going to, as I don't imagine the book will be very good, and if anything interesting happens I'm sure the internet will tell me, but it's certainly a temptation.

14:39 / 05.01.08

i always thought the 616 Spider-Man would be the 'official' one to whom time would take its normal course. the guy that would eventually [and very slowly] age into Spider-Girl's dad - or one of his alternate realities' alter-ego.

but it's like the Silver Surfer hitting a force field around Earth. whenever Peter reaches a certain age and moves on with his live, he's not allowed to go any further and is magically brought back to his late teens \ early adult single years. it's like a spunk[web fluid]-filled teenage curse.

i'm so much more inclined to read REIGN right now; there won't be any other oportunities to see SM's possible future world [something that i love in superheroes] at the moment.

Essential Dazzler

20:17 / 05.01.08

And yet nowhere fucking near enough people buy Spider-Man Loves Mary-Jane, the best Marvel ongoing without Brubaker's name on the cover.

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