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Underground > Comic Books >

How would you make Spidey’s identity secret again?

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Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

21:13 / 05.01.08

Which is a completely awesome series! I just bought the latest digest the other week and it oozed coolness. I wonder when the first Terry Moore trade is coming out...

(Hmm. Maybe I'll go post about it in the Romance Comics thread later.)

Essential Dazzler

21:29 / 05.01.08

YAY! Well, the first Terry Moore issue isn't out yet, so who knows? I'm a few hours away from starting a read through of Strangers in Paradise so I'll be using the Romance thread even if no-one else is.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

21:40 / 05.01.08

No, no, I'll get to it. Though I got tired of SiP after a while, so I hope he's a little more focused with SMLMJ.

21:11 / 07.01.08

Last night I was watching the latest episode of that Marvel/DC After Hourse action figure cartoon/movie thing on YouTube. There was a scene where Spider-Man was bitching out Batman at the end of the adventure because they just pulled the old time-travel-it-never-happened switcheroo.

Spidey was all "you can't just hit the reset button, it's not a satisfying ending at all". It was intended as a slapdown on DC's habit of rewriting its comic history with crises and zero hours and stuff.

Maybe that's why this feels so dumb - it's not really consistent with the way Marvel plays, traditionally speaking.

Also - how will all this "no MJ" reconcile with the movies? I didn't see the third one - do they break up in that one? In which case is this another case of making the comics stay in line with the movie?

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:33 / 07.01.08

Maybe that's why this feels so dumb - it's not really consistent with the way Marvel plays, traditionally speaking.

Well, apart from the Infinity Gauntlet, House of M, Heroes Reborn... Marvel's attempts to reboot continuity are even more ineffectual than DC's, though.

22:54 / 07.01.08

It seems like this Spiderman problem is a great example of when efforts to construct a shared and consistent history get in the way of good storytelling.

Has there ever been a thread on barbelith about the pros and cons of the continuity/soap opera model of superhero comics? It seems like a real drawback and of lmited benefit to have such an unwieldy universe. Hulk could still fight Wolverine without it being canon, so why is it seen as so important?

I can understand the marketing appeal of crossovers, but why do fans care so much? And actually... do they?

23:32 / 07.01.08

Well, apart from the Infinity Gauntlet, House of M, Heroes Reborn... Marvel's attempts too reboot continuity are even more ineffectual than DC's, though.

ah yeah, i forgot house of M and haven't read the others at all. so scratch that.

yeah, i'm kind of in the "no continuity" camp, but I do like the idea of a character having history too. I suppose the camp I'm really in is the "good fun writing" camp...

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

04:47 / 08.01.08

Did Infinity Gauntlet actually reboot anything? I mean, I know Thanos killed everything, but wasn't the status quo renewed by the end? Other than some tinkering with Adam Warlock and what have you.

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:37 / 08.01.08

On reflection, I think you're right, yes - it was like Crisis on Infinite Arse - at the end only three people, including THUNDERSTRIKE, remembered what had happened, but actually what had happened was not a lot - everyone died, then everyone came back to life again.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

06:18 / 08.01.08

It did echo nicely in a She-Hulk comic where people sitting in court were asked to raise their hands if they'd died and come back, though.

By and large the reboot-style events are a newer element in the Marvel U, and it's pretty obvious--they go so completely against the grain. What did House of M accomplish, anyway? Besides introducing Lyla MacGuffin and reanimating Clint Barton? This new status quo for Spidey will probably unravel right quick.

14:43 / 08.01.08

>> Infinity Gauntlet, House of M, Heroes Reborn

But with all of these, there were no real lasting effects (other than the 'no more mutants' plotline in X-Men) and the status quo of the MU was essentially kept and maintained at the end of each. And, nothing really 'rewrote' past continuity in the way that DC's Crises or Spidey's deal with Mephisto has.

Uatu.is.watching

15:04 / 08.01.08

One thing I really enjoyed about the House of M was that Peter was given his heart's desire, and it was to be married. To Gwen. Not only was that an intriguing angle, but it pretty much invalidates Mephisto's reasoning for taking away the marriage because it's so special and unique.

I guess House of M really didn't change much. Sigh.

Uatu.is.watching

15:05 / 08.01.08

"taking away the marriage"

To MJ that is...

Janean Patience

09:21 / 12.01.08

The worst thing about One More Day - the unforgiveable thing - is when I come home from work early, lock the door, draw the blinds, and give myself a severe ticking-off to my Adam Hughes statue of Mary Jane doing Spidey's laundry. And as I lie there afterwards in the gloom, covered in shame and self-loathing, I catch her eye and realise that she's not even canon.

Phex: Dorset Doom

11:35 / 12.01.08

Lolz to you good sir.

[+] [-] Spoilers for Spidey #546

11:52 / 12.01.08

I feel your pain.

But she can still wash his pants though, can't she?

In some ways, this new situation might actually be better for Pete, because no more having to explain about the blood, and so on. He'll be able to just say he had a few beers with Harry, and that things got a bit messy in Spearmint Rhino.

Of course, what a really clever writer would do is have Pete saying that after a fight with the actual Rhino. MJ could then roll her eyes at Pete's crazy, bachelor ways. And Pete could feel as if action is his only reward.

13:40 / 12.01.08

I'm not going to stop reading this book, and I really don't think anybody is

This is an incorrect assertion.

Phex: Dorset Doom

16:01 / 12.01.08

Well, okay 'anybody' is pretty huge so let me re-phrase: Even considering the almost entirely negative reaction of fans and critics to One More Day and Brand New Day, the sales of Amazing Spiderman are unlikely to fall significantly and therefore the changes made are likely to stick for the foreseeable future.

Am I to take it that you'll be dropping the book Granny?

18:42 / 12.01.08

One thing I really enjoyed about the House of M was that Peter was given his heart's desire, and it was to be married. To Gwen.

Hmmm. Forgot about that. That WAS a really interesting angle and suggested so much about Peter's heart. Very clever and bold move on Bendis' part that suggested a pretty MASSIVE shift in the character's inner life. Maybe we'll see that secret wish make a return sometime soon...

I've always though that Gwen should return anyway, and Norman (check) and Harry (check): they were all virtually ground zero/initial condition cast members and have been impossible to replace. Imagine if DC had done away with Lois, Lex and Brainiac then stuck to their guns for twenty years. It's like driving without certain key but non-vital engine parts: the vehicle moves but not entirely smoothly.

Phex: Dorset Doom

19:16 / 12.01.08

The Spidey 'think tank*' would probably argue that Gwen was closer to Lana Lang than Lois- a significant part of the character's life for sure, but not their one true love.

If anybody at DC is reading this, we seriously need an Elseworlds story in which Neron mystically divorces Lois and Clark, and erases Chris Kent from existence, in order to save Martha Kent. And he loses a bunch of powers for some reason.

*= More like... Stink tank! Get it? It's a pun. A play on words.

20:49 / 12.01.08

Am I to take it that you'll be dropping the book Granny?

I think I'm going to have to. But maybe we all should. What is it that drives us guys back to the pages of Spider-Man again and again, except for a cursed streak of perversity?

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

20:54 / 12.01.08

I've always though that Gwen should return anyway, and Norman (check) and Harry (check): they were all virtually ground zero/initial condition cast members and have been impossible to replace. Imagine if DC had done away with Lois, Lex and Brainiac then stuck to their guns for twenty years. It's like driving without certain key but non-vital engine parts: the vehicle moves but not entirely smoothly.

I see what you mean, but I'd say that one thing that's interesting about Marvel's big guns is that things do change, at least to a greater degree than is normal for DC's big characters. I mean if you look at Spiderman, the Hulk, Iron Man, Captain America and Thor, they've all had much bigger genuine changes of status quo than most of DC's A listers, and I think that's something worthwhile.

And wasn't Norman turning out to be the Green Goblin a fairly late addition to both characters canon? I seem to recall reading that they were considered separate characters for years, before someone had the idea that they should be the same guy. The merger pissed Steve Ditko off no end, I seem to recall.

Spyder Todd 2008

22:56 / 12.01.08

Stan Lee wanted Osborn to be the Goblin, Ditko wanted him to be some random gangster (or Ned Leeds, depends who you ask). That's what finally made Ditko quit. But Osborn was only introduced two issues before the identity reveal (ASM #37, I am a nerd), so I've always figured Stan Lee was planning on it all along.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

05:26 / 13.01.08

I dropped it like a hot rock.

And the owner of a local comic shop that I chat with every once in a while reported that 50% of his subscribing customers dropped Amazing from their pull lists.

It appears to not just be the internet wags getting disgruntled about this one.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

07:26 / 13.01.08

One of the comic blogs I came across talking about this suggested that the new female superhero in BND may be Mary-Jane, and that's what she was whispering with the devil about.

Phex: Dorset Doom

07:49 / 13.01.08

Just suggested? Jackpot is a red-headed former model who refers to somebody as 'tiger'- ain't gonna be Uncle Ben.

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

08:07 / 13.01.08

Stan Lee wanted Osborn to be the Goblin, Ditko wanted him to be some random gangster (or Ned Leeds, depends who you ask). That's what finally made Ditko quit. But Osborn was only introduced two issues before the identity reveal (ASM #37, I am a nerd), so I've always figured Stan Lee was planning on it all along.

Thanks for the info. I was basing my assumptions on a column I read several years ago, and one it seems I only dimly remembered. I curious now; was Harry a part of the cast much before Norman, or did he appear about the same time?

With regards to sales I do wonder whether it's fair to put down any drop in sales entirely to Joe Q's story ideas however odd, I think the whole weekly thing probably puts some people off. For instance I wasn't buying amazing anyway, but I was buying Friendly Neighbourhood, and there's about anough space in my life for one Spider-man book monthly. I really don't want to be reading a medicore Spidey book every week though. so now I'm not reading any Spider-man books. Weekly-ish worked sorta alright for the triangle number Superman books back in the day, but comics only cost about a quarter of what they do these days back then, and I think that makes an ongoing weekly series a lot less appealing.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:24 / 13.01.08

I've just downloaded and read the issues by the power of eeeevil and, while I could appreciate the other major crossovers of recent years as stories, Disassembled, House of M, Civil War, this just didn't work. I don't know if it could be fixed, maybe if we were shown that May's death would screw up Peter more than never remembering he was married to MJ, but it wasn't Aunt May that Peter came back from the dead for when Kraven killed him. Silly, silly four-colour people...

Spyder Todd 2008

16:37 / 13.01.08

Harry first appeared in ASM 31, the first issue where Peter goes to college. It's also the first appearance of Gwen Stacy. So Harry was introduced 6 issues before his father, and 2 issues after that the Green Goblin's identity is finally revealed (the Goblin appeared first in issue 14).

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

17:54 / 13.01.08

Harry first appeared in ASM 31, the first issue where Peter goes to college. It's also the first appearance of Gwen Stacy. So Harry was introduced 6 issues before his father, and 2 issues after that the Green Goblin's identity is finally revealed (the Goblin appeared first in issue 14).

Thanks. That's interesting. I think that sort of reinforces my point about what's been so great about Spidey over the years - that these characters that are thought of now as being so intrinsic to Peter's story didn't even appear until years after the book began.

23:29 / 13.01.08

But I think they ARE intrinsic to Spider Man. Even though Gwen, Harry and Norman debuted in year three, can you name many characters since then who are as compelling or long lasting? (that's not meant to sound like a gauntlet being thrown down, BTW).

It took time for the casts of SUPERMAN and BATMAN awhile to coalesce as well, IIRC.

Shiny: Well Over Thirty

05:01 / 14.01.08

See I think it all depends when you started reading, for me it was 1983, so for me Gwen is intrinsic - but for being dead. The same was true of Norman as well for me, for a long time - there's still a part of me that insists that Doctor Octopus is Peter's ultimate archenemy as he was in the 80s, but Norman is such a great villain I can forgive him for coming back. And Harry, Harry's final years of life and his death were so heartbreaking.......I'm basically a big fan of ressurection, since I don't think characters that people can enjoy should be left dead uneccesarily, but I find it hard to like the idea of Harry being back.

With regards to newer characters - I think I've demonstrated I don't really have a great knowledge of when characters first appeared, but I conceed that I probably wouldn't be able to even if I knew more - about the most succesful characters to be introduced since say 1980 were I suppose the Hobgoblin, Venmom, and the Black Cat, but all of them burned out sooner or later.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

12:30 / 14.01.08

So, do X-fans get to look forward to Storm and Black Panther's marriage being magically unhappened?

07:42 / 15.01.08

If anybody at DC is reading this, we seriously need an Elseworlds story in which Neron mystically divorces Lois and Clark, and erases Chris Kent from existence, in order to save Martha Kent. And he loses a bunch of powers for some reason.

Actually, Wally West and Linda Park once sold Neron their love (not in a dirty way) to save Keystone. No retconning was involved, though, and it turned out that their love was so cosmically powerful that it turned Neron into a nice guy. So he had to give it back next issue.

Love conquers all in Flashland. (Love is also a literal gateway into higher planes of existence, which is why Neron wanted it. Love also enables one to time-travel and punch one's enemies into orbit with lightspeedy fists. I think Peter Parker could probably use .)

08:19 / 15.01.08

"So, do X-fans get to look forward to Storm and Black Panther's marriage being magically unhappened? "

Yes as im finding it very hard to relate to them as they are . As opposed to An African King and a American/ Egyptian goddess come theif, who i feel i have more in common with.

Im sure Captain America will return in the quest fr Peters and MJ's love , cretaing a modern Arthurian legend as he seeks MJ's grail !

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