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Underground > Temple >

Assessing your own practice

  
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Ticker
17:11 / 07.08.07
Again groundng this in my current practice of seeking conflict resolution, patience, and greater compassion I'd like to ask a few things.

My reading of the article did not produce the same results in my mind as Medulla's posts seem to have produced in her's.

My questions for Medulla are:

What is your intent in discussing the article with Live Things and other posters here? what would you like to see happen as a result of the discussion?

My statements for Medulla are:

The tone of your posts to Live Things in this thread resonate with the tone I experinced with you in the UFO thread. I am witnessing the same type of inability to take in what the other person is trying to communicate until you and they become frustrated. Are you aware of this pattern? What can I do when having this conflict with you to communicate more clearly?

I am in no way speaking for Live Things, the board, or any other beings I'm aware of. My intent is to learn what actions I personally can undertake. It is not my intent to critique other people only to express my perceptions and ask for their perceptions.
 
 
grant
18:52 / 07.08.07
It seems like some of the criticism being taken as criticism of Live Things is actually criticism of rhetoric. I'd say 21st century didactic rhetoric, but essentially it's the academic tradition going all the way back - the writer makes assertions based on observations & personal conclusions.

It's not necessary to write assertively, but when trying to tell a general audience about anything, it sure helps.

I'm not sure if this has much to do with practice or even self-examination. It's kind of built into the system of communication - clear, concise, self-evidently written by some person in some place (thus, subjective).
 
 
Ticker
19:00 / 07.08.07
instead of:

My reading of the article did not produce the same results in my mind as Medulla's posts seem to have produced in her's.

I meant:

My reading of the article did not produce the same results in my mind as Medulla's reading seemed to have produced in her's.

I'm not sure if this has much to do with practice or even self-examination. It's kind of built into the system of communication - clear, concise, self-evidently written by some person in some place (thus, subjective).

grant this bit summed it up nicely for me:

Phrases like "in my opinion" are generally discouraged because, as a personal opinion essay, the whole paper can be considered to be the author's opinion unless otherwise specified. The sudden insertion of "I" is also discouraged in a situation where the paper has been consistently written as a third-person essay for several paragraphs. Switching to first person after several paragraphs written in the third person would be an inconsistent use of voice, and therefore a flaw in the writing.
 
 
Papess
20:33 / 07.08.07
[way, waaay off-topic]

I haven't read anything else from where I left off, except grant's post above. I have followed the link and I am in the process of reading it.

It was not my intention to upset anyone, or derail this thread. I certainly did not intend for an personal attack on MC/Live.

I did want to point out that there was something about her article, and the ideas about practice that didn't sit right with me. It is a very interesting article with some very insightful points. However, there is something about the style it is written in that makes the opinions seem like they are facts. Since a few of the ideas in the article I do not agree with, it is hard to accept written in sucha a way that resembles a fact.

Also, if "I" statements aren't acceptable, maybe there could be less "you" statements?

Then again, perhaps this discussion would be better Creation, as I would love to really understand better about writing "persuasive" or "argumentative" essays. Especially in consideration of what is expected of the articles for the "Barbelith Temple Presents".

Thanks everyone. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:30 / 14.08.07
Following on partly from that last shitfight but prompted more by some recent distress in elsewhere in my online crowd, I think there's one very important point that needs to be stated here:

It's okay to make mistakes.

It's okay to make mistakes, to be wrong, to be misguided; to confuzzle the sockpuppets inside your head with messages from outside; to trip up, to slip, to become lax; to need downtime, to need guidance, to ask for help. All of that, it's fine. It's okay.

And it's important to know this. If you don't give yourself permission to be mistaken now and again, then you cannot effectively evaluate your practice. If you set up a rigid binary where EITHER you're correct in every detail about everything OR you're deluded and your work is without worth, you set yourself up for faliure. Have confidence and trust in the things that work, the things that improve your adaptivity and function, but don't chain yourself to a particular interpretation, a particular narrative; you have to be free to adapt and that means being free to let things go sometimes. Allowing yourself to entertain, unthreatened, the possibility of error also strengthens your ability to accept and honour the kosher stuff when it does come along.

It's okay to make mistakes.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:02 / 14.08.07
Thats good advice, filled with compassion for oneself and towards others they encounter in there practice. Its easy for us to see others mistakes but very difficult for us to sometimes spot our own, self knowledge being hard to cultivate without alot of practice on my own part.

All my own mistakes give me opportunity to learn something new or address old habits.
 
 
brother george
13:51 / 14.08.07
-and sometimes suffered--real, genuine harm as a result of your misconceptions. So what? Haven't you grown as a person? Wasn't it all worth it?" No, no, a thousand times NO.

Sorry but I don't understand. How can you NOT have grown as a person from all of this? If you did not have grown up you would be still in that same situation.
These experiences were needed to happen so that you can become what you are now.

Some people were already like you now back then, and without effort but are lacking in some other areas. We are not all dealt with the same cards.

Waking up one morning and realizing that you were wrong for 2 straight years can be a bummer, sure. This is one of the hardest things for me to cope with. Beating yourself up and screaming that you are an idiot for "missing such a simple thing" about yourself, your practice or some outlook in your life can be a hard process. But these are realizations! Not acquirements of new knowledge or information.
These realizations alter the course of your being and will be with you till the day you're gone.

And the time spent in error is not lost, for these realizations are not a matter of IQ but of spiritual maturation.

Please explain this to me if you care.

P.S.: On the assessment tangent, can someone tell me why is that that when I have a breakthrough in my magical practice, I get immense party feelings? I want to go out and drink beers and celebrate.
 
 
Papess
14:12 / 14.08.07
i appreciate these points:

"And it's important to know this. If you don't give yourself permission to be mistaken now and again, then you cannot effectively evaluate your practice."

"If you set up a rigid binary where EITHER you're correct in every detail about everything OR you're a nutter and a dillettente, you set yourself up for faliure."

"Have confidence and trust in the things that work, the things that improve your adaptivity and function, but don't can't chain yourself to a particular interpretation, a particular narrative;"

Very important. Also why critically discussing the article was necessary.

I would like to add to these statements that MC/Live has made, that sometimes assessment or evaluation of one's practice is NOT a necessity. In the case of daily meditation, reflecting about how well, or how awful the practice is, or comparing different sitting sessions will only be detrimental. To think one has maybe wasted their time meditating because their mind was discursive or their heart is feeling graspy - is not helpful to you. Do it anyway, that is why it is called practice, for pete's sake!

The other time I can think of that assessment can get in the way, is in the case of devotional practice. Not that evaluation is entirely unhelpful, but there is a different way of assessing devotional practice than some other more results based practices.

Devotion for the sake of devotion. For myself, my devotional practice is done for it's own sake. There is nothing that I wish to gain except to honour my Deity. I very rarely practice results based magick, so assessment becomes a bit of a foreign concept when just doing devotional practice for it's own sake. Regularly assessing how I am doing in terms of results might imply some expectation I had of the devotion I am showing the Deity. That in itself is an assessment, I realise, but I have to be careful to make the assessment in a particular way. Not to evaluate "results", but to assess my devotion purely to strengthen my devotion and not to receive some boon.

For example, using devotional practices to Venus-Aphrodite (since we have discussed Her already) only when one wishes to acquire a love interest, or some such goal, is most likely going to have terrible results. Results may be yielded in the short-term, but devotion to a Goddess of Love is a lifelong endeavour. Fleeting devotional practices to a Love Goddess, motivated by self-interest are certain to result in failure at best! Persistence in doing so could be devastating. In the case of a Love Goddess, a lifelong commitment is best because such is the nature of Love. Love cannot be generated by self-interest alone, or by fleeting commitment.

So, with Deity devotional practice, results may not be what one should use as a yardstick, (I am not insinuating anyone implied this!). I would like to be very clear, that devotional magick and results magick may not work in the same manner. Therefore, it may be necessary to use a completely different measurement of success, if one desires to asses their devotional practice. I don't recommend doing so in terms of results, as I have stated, but in quiet self-reflection of two things: 1) Genuine love for the Deity. - Or are you coming to the Deity strictly for self gain? 2) Consistency in devotion. - Are you devoted even when you feel the lessons are hard, or you feel nothing is happening (Which rather brings me back to my first point of having genuine love for the Deity.) These two points are quite related but it may help to break them down to understand your devotional practice.

Following on partly from that last shitfight

Too bad that it was perceived that way.
 
 
brother george
14:28 / 14.08.07

Fleeting devotional practices to a Love Goddess, motivated by self-interest are certain to result in failure at best!

This varies as Aphrodite had various faces and roles and not one. There was a celestial Aphrodite, a "of the people's" Aphrodite, then there were the Romans over there with Venus, etc..

Love (or Sex) for self-interest definitely falls under Her too. It depends on what aspect you are working with.

And as with everything in magic, the difficult part is to cope with the results. The quality and how balanced they manifest varies from the previous work you have done, where you are standing now and what you actually NEED instead of want. Somehow Necessity (Ananke) seems to always call the shots here.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:29 / 14.08.07
Okay. I'm going to try and tackle this without going into too much detailed biography.

I'm not talking about noodling off on a bit of a tangent and maybe not playing at the top of your game for a couple of years. That can happen, and the best thing to do when you come back is to chalk it up to experience. Kind of like taking a wrong turning on the way into town so you end up walking further than you meant; you end up in the same place, you just got a bit more excercise than you planned for.

However it is possible to get so fucking lost and so mislead that you suffer real harm as a result. In my case failing to recognise the importance of certain elements of my practice and failing to evaluate what was going on across my magical practice and mundane life meant that I left myself open to various influences and people which were actively damaging to me. Not only did I not use my magic to sort myself out in ways that I could have done, but I was essentially predated by one or two unscrupulous people who were happy enough to use/abuse my abilities for their own purposes without giving me any credence or support, and in fact undermining me.

Imagine pouring everything you have into trying to heal an area of largely self-inflicted physical damage for someone who won't take any measures to heal themselves, and who then sneers at and belittles your efforts because you couldn't miraculously sort it out for them. Imagine being placed in trance so that someone can essentially use you as a divinatory tool, and then being told that you're no good afterwards because they didn't hear what they wanted to hear. Imagine being ordered to use abilities you're not even sure you possess and certainly don't know how to use effectively when you're tired, drunk, overstressed. Imagine being called upon to do these things without knowing or understanding the consequenses, without knowing that they will impact on your life let alone the ways that can happen. Imagine doing this over and over again, for months or for years, and then having the same people who've been exploiting you tell you that you're crazy anyway and should just take a bunch of drugs. Imagine turning your back on all the work you've done because you've been made to feel it was worthless insanity.

In my dealings with deity magic, I created horrendous problems for myself because I didn't properly understand that whether or not one believes in the literal existance of deities and yadda yadda yadda, the consequenses could certainly be real enough. You attract attention. You incur debts. Stuff happens. Some of the mistakes I made in that department more than a decade ago are still biting me in the arse to this day and will be for the forseeable.

I can't go back and fix all that. I'll never have those years back; I'll never be 12 again, or 15, or 21. What I can do is tell people who are getting into this now what they might reasonably expect and put traffic cones around some of the deeper holes in the road. If people still choose to go sperlunking, that's cool too, but at least they won't be plunging headlong into the darkness without a rope.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:29 / 14.08.07
That last to brother george, obvs.
 
 
Papess
14:45 / 14.08.07
but I was essentially predated by one or two unscrupulous people who were happy enough to use/abuse my abilities for their own purposes without giving me any credence or support, and in fact undermining me.

I certainly relate to that, Live. I have made some really naive errors when dealing with magick. It has been hard for me to learn how to protect myself without becoming bitter and prickly. It is important to keep an open heart when doing magickal practice of any sort. Otherwise, our practice is coming from a place of fear, and that is never a good thing.
 
 
brother george
14:52 / 14.08.07
Live, I did not wish for you to go into personal details. I only wanted you to explain to me how you think you haven't grown from this experience. And to tell you another thing.

You should be grateful that you kept the balls to pursue the path and not stop it after all these horrible experiences, turn a fundie or worst: someone who fucks around at the door forever, yelling at people and warning them not to enter cause big things with claws will eat them. Getting the door of the Mysteries effectively shut for them in this lifetime or probably for forever.

Besides that, being lost in that scale means that you probably now have the experience to not get lost again in that magnitude. This was needed to happen to you for some reason. I do not know. Some things are needed to happen. It is the only way. It is the equivalent of "Ok, this is going to hurt, its the only way, cause the arrow is stuck so and so".

Only there is scarcely an explanation and you don't remember getting hit by an arrow, or why for that matter.

You survived this. You continue walking your path and you're pretty much physically intact.

I got too in some fucked up situations approximately in the time when I started deciding to pursue seriously this stuff.

In retrospect I chalk some of these experiences to necessity because I couldn't "snap out of it" in any other way and this makes some sense to me.

But I still don't understand how you can say that you haven't grown. Getting lost on a grand scale and then managing to get back and decide to continue to walk anyway is a sign of immense growth.
 
 
brother george
14:54 / 14.08.07
Getting the door of the Mysteries effectively shut for them in this lifetime or probably for forever.

I meant 'shut for you' not them. Sorry!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:59 / 14.08.07
Very important. Also why critically discussing the article was necessary.

I'd consider those concepts to be implicit in the concept of evaluating one's practice (why evaluate if errors aren't possible/acceptable), but maybe shoving an extra paragraph in the version that appears in the Temple journal would help nurture the kind of compassion for oneself I'd like to foster in the reader.

In the case of daily meditation, reflecting about how well, or how awful the practice is, or comparing different sitting sessions will only be detrimental.

See, this is precicely what I'm getting at. Awful? Why should evaluation mean thinking anything is awful? "Evaluation" does not mean "horrible tearing self-criticsm followed by scourging with nettles in the case of any tiny flaw." It means looking at how things are going and doing more of what works and less of what doesn't. End of. It is useful to evaluate a simple practice like meditation over time. In the case of meditation, evaluation might consist of "hey, I definately feel less stressed in the afternoon if I've done my fifteen minutes in the morning," noticing that you do better after breakfast than before, or better in the garden than in the bedroom, or recognising the very real benefits of regular meditation in yourself and permitting yourself more of this good and healthy activity.

Devotion for the sake of devotion. For myself, my devotional practice is done for it's own sake. There is nothing that I wish to gain except to honour my Deity...
For example, using devotional practices to Venus-Aphrodite (since we have discussed Her already) only when one wishes to acquire a love interest, or some such goal, is most likely going to have terrible results.

But that's exactly what I was saying! That's what all my "don't treat the Gods like They're your servants" ranting is about. I don't really ask my Guys for stuff, except in emergencies (when someone is very sick, I might ask Them to help me with the healing) or for advice and counsel. Mostly it's along the lines of phoning a mate up and having Hir over for a plate of spaghetti and a glass or two of Rioja. (Who do you think more fondly of, the friend who invites you round whenever, just to enjoy your company, or the person you only hear from when they need to more furniture or have a lend of your car?)

I would still contend that if things are going right you will start to see the mysteries of your deity manifest in yourself and in the world around you. If you're not then something is wrong. Not, "I'm wrong, I'm bad, I'm screwing up, I'm useless" but "there's a problem around here somewhere and I need to look at it." Why is that a bad thing? No-one's perfect. We've all got stuff that needs sorting out. Identifying the areas that need work is a positive first step, surely.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:03 / 14.08.07
You should be grateful that you kept the balls to pursue the path and not stop it after all these horrible experiences, turn a fundie or worst: someone who fucks around at the door forever, yelling at people and warning them not to enter cause big things with claws will eat them.

I bloody nearly did. I betrayed and abandoned my pantheon (and thus I betrayed and abandoned my self, my True Will) for a decade, during which I did a fair bit of yelling and warning.
 
 
Papess
15:11 / 14.08.07
*sigh*

See, this is precicely what I'm getting at. Awful? Why should evaluation mean thinking anything is awful? "Evaluation" does not mean "horrible tearing self-criticsm followed by scourging with nettles in the case of any tiny flaw...

Yes, we are agreeing. It is not an argument. COnsidering one's practice is "awful" is detrimental. I also would add that the flipside of considering one's practice (of meditation, specifically) is good is also detrimental.

"But that's exactly what I was saying! That's what all my "don't treat the Gods like They're your servants" ranting is about. I don't really ask my Guys for stuff, except in emergencies"

So I was reiterating in a less ranty way.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:14 / 14.08.07
You survived this. You continue walking your path and you're pretty much physically intact.

You don't know that. I could be typing with two hooks and eating my meals through a straw.

Joking apart, I have to say that I wish more for myself and any reader than surviving and being pretty much physically intact. (I'd also note that physical intactitude is worth little if you've gone so far off the deep end mentally that you can't enjoy it.) I want them to thrive and do well, to be wealthy in the things that matter to them. Thus, I don't really understand this "you survived" or "you've grown as a result of your experiences" tangent in respect of assessing your own practice. I don't know what it's doing here. Are we saying that people should avoid assessing their practices just in case the resulting screw-ups produce interesting personal development? Or just that we should avoid taking note of our own errors and passing the word on to other people? If so, why stop at one's magical practice--why not get rid of instruction manuals, because thrashing out how to programme your DVD player builds character? Why not ban swimming lessons, in case someone misses out on the valuable personal growth experience of almost drowning? If not, wtf does this "but you GREW from those mistakes, ah haaaa" stuff have to do with the topic of evaluating your magical practice?
 
 
brother george
17:02 / 14.08.07
Thus, I don't really understand this "you survived" or "you've grown as a result of your experiences" tangent in respect of assessing your own practice.

This wasn't directed generally to people and the assessment of their practice. It was for you in the context of your then situation. I thought that this was clear enough since we were not generalizing but discussing a particular experience and your attitude towards it.

Are we saying that people should avoid assessing their practices just in case the resulting screw-ups produce interesting personal development?

Again. All of my post is to be read within the context of your experience. It does not generally apply to everyone else here.

Maybe it is my English but I detect a serious problem with people misunderstanding what I write. Maybe I'm not into forums anymore. I regard
debating issues and trying to convince other people about stuff pretty pointless and I'm sorry if this is insulting to you. This is how I feel the past years.

Maybe I'm intellectually tired, maybe I don't give a damn anymore, possibly I'm wrong but I'm not going to debate that ;-).
 
 
Papess
17:11 / 14.08.07
Personally, I don't like the instruction manual analogy in reference when dealing with life issues. There is a good reason life, kids, marriage, etc...doesn't come with one.

Thus, I don't really understand this "you survived" or "you've grown as a result of your experiences" tangent in respect of assessing your own practice. I don't know what it's doing here. Are we saying that people should avoid assessing their practices just in case the resulting screw-ups produce interesting personal development? Or just that we should avoid taking note of our own errors and passing the word on to other people?

I know that when I brought up "learning from one's mistakes" and growing because of it, I was referring to the lack of that in your article. You have done a wonderful post on that above.

Mistakes do help us grow. Some lessons are harder to learn, thus we may make the same mistakes over and over. Sometimes, no amount of pointing out to someone their mistakes is enough. Sometimes, they have to get "bonked on the head", by the Powers that Be, over and over. It is frustrating to watch, but I do believe that I have to have faith that they will eventually wake up. All I should do in the meantime is be as compassionate as possible to help them through, in whatever way I can.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:02 / 14.08.07
I asked one of my University Literature professors for his advice on becoming a professional writer.


"Write, write, write," he told me.

this is a sure sign your practice is working: you practice.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:04 / 14.08.07
Results based magic is possibly an area approached in a certain way, i engage with results based magic on the basis of requests rather than say demands, i hand over the request to Raphael for instance (not the turtle), for healing through communication. I make my request and let that stay with him.

He will then decide how that should manifest ( no lust of result, when the request remains outside of you), its still a devotional practice and its still result based, but the dynamic is not one of demands of services, its more focused on relationship and keeping good relations.

It means i may well be asked via a request to return some work or pass on what i have received to others in an act of kindness or charity.

In the process of requesting the relationship to involve certain elements or energies it then becomes my obligation to honor the process laid down by all parties involved. If the process in not attended to to the length of time agreed then those elements/results may change or disappear entirely.

I guess that is the old idea of a contract or pact, creating an oath, keeping a promise, returning a favour. I find my results generally work better when promises are kept.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:17 / 14.08.07
An example of constructive self criticism about my practice, i have been looking at possession and finding myself quite uncomfortable with it, i wondered why, and after looking at the thread on possession and my contributions to it, started to understand why.

I think i may well have been possessed during periods of altar work, but i am not entirely sure, with the comparisons i have to go by, i know i have had encounters with the dead, but possession may actually be beyond me, i think i am mistaken in thinking i was possessed. I think this because i always have a self awareness, i may be aware of other consciousness merging with my own, but it never becomes totally other. And nothing like the images from the film trouser points to about the Hauka.

So from remembering and examining my experience from outside documents i have discovered that possession is not a tradition i could really be involved with, fundamental parts of my life experience create internal conflicts with possession. So while i am fascinated by the notion, it is not one i think i could faithfully practice nor honour the traditions correctly that embody it.

By looking at this and examining these factors critically about my practice i have come to understand where i actually feel an affinity and for what values and forces i wish to relate too.
 
 
Quantum
22:00 / 14.08.07
Sometimes, they have to get "bonked on the head", by the Powers that Be, over and over. It is frustrating to watch, but I do believe that I have to have faith that they will eventually wake up.

I feel that I have been bonked on the head enough, and yet, still not awoaked. Is this my destiny? To be bonked until I have an epiphany?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:54 / 14.08.07
brother george: Okay, I think I get what you're saying now. And yes I guess you could argue that I have "grown as a person" after all that, inasmuch as I am less likely to make the same mistakes again. I remain unconvinced that it was worth it. I don't feel like I gained anything from those experiences that I could not have gained from having positive, happy, supportive experiences. In fact, I remain convinced that I was more set back than I was pushed forward, since although I might have "grown" I sustained considerable damage and have had to do a commensurate amount of patching up.

I don't quite know where the insistance that the experiences I described must have been learning, growth-inducing experiences comes from though. It seems odd to me. I find myself wondering if a description of negative experiences in one's quote-mundane-unquote life would have met with the same response; when my flat caught fire a few months back, for instance, I don't remember anyone insisting that I must have grown as a person thereby.

Forgive me, but I can't help feeling that this kind of refusal to accept my own evaluation of my experiences as damaging and negative comes from a "magic isn't really real" outlook, where it doesn't matter if someone gets fucked over in their magical/spiritual life anymore than it would matter if they got fucked over while playing Dungeons & Dragons with an unecessarily uptight DM. Sure, I may have been a bruise to the ego or two, but it's not like anything important was affected...
 
 
Papess
23:06 / 14.08.07
I feel that I have been bonked on the head enough, and yet, still not awoaked. Is this my destiny? To be bonked until I have an epiphany?

I don't know. You seem pretty awake to me, Quantum. What were you expecting?

How hard would you like to be hit, anyway? Till you see bright lights and swirling stars? That could be arranged!
 
 
Papess
00:13 / 15.08.07
I remain unconvinced that it was worth it. I don't feel like I gained anything from those experiences that I could not have gained from having positive, happy, supportive experiences. In fact, I remain convinced that I was more set back than I was pushed forward, since although I might have "grown" I sustained considerable damage and have had to do a commensurate amount of patching up.

My gosh. I really do understand this, MC. I have dealt with people on a magickal level who have gladly thrown me into pits of "hell", "for my own good", or just because they were careless...or whatever the lies-du-jour were. I am not certain what you went through, exactly, but my experiences made me angry and set me back a whole lot. I had to spend years afterwards trying to recover and make myself strong again. All without a whole lot of support, at least not as much as I needed.

Damn straight I am stronger for it! It used to make me very angry too, because I insisted that it didn't have to happen that way, and maybe it didn't/doesn't. However, what it does give me for having "been there", in that state, in that horrible place, is the ability to truly understand someone else who is. Just as long as I remain open and can accept what happened without anger, I can help people who are in that place too. If I get angry about those experiences, I just can't help anyone, not even myself.

What I found the hardest to learn about letting go of my anger regarding these awful experiences, is I thought it would mean that the nasty things that happened weren't wrong, or they were "okay" somehow. I felt I had to hang on to my anger and not accept experience as a growth experience in order to validate the injustice of them. I only hurt myself in doing so. I caused myself all sorts of mental, emotional and physical anguish by not integrating the experiences. I didn't allow that part of me that experienced that awful thing, to fully learn and grow from it. I therefore, couldn't integrate myself entirely, only causing myself more and more torment.

Now I can say I have fully been there and I fully know the way back. I can now help others who are there and don't know their way out. By not accepting it fully, I wouldn't be able to do that.

I find myself wondering if a description of negative experiences in one's quote-mundane-unquote life would have met with the same response; when my flat caught fire a few months back, for instance, I don't remember anyone insisting that I must have grown as a person thereby.

Did you learn something from that experience? People say that sort of thing about "mundane" experiences all the time. I guess, spiritual/magickal work is mostly about the inner-growth stuff, though, which is why it gets asked more regarding that work.

Forgive me, but I can't help feeling that this kind of refusal to accept my own evaluation of my experiences as damaging and negative

I am not saying that your experiences weren't damaging and negative, Live. I am saying that is still possible, and more healthy for you to make something positive out of your experiences, no matter how heinous, if you intend to live a healthy, happy life. Otherwise, you are continuing the damage and negativity.

...comes from a "magic isn't really real" outlook, where it doesn't matter if someone gets fucked over in their magical/spiritual life anymore than it would matter if they got fucked over while playing Dungeons & Dragons with an unecessarily uptight DM.

This I am certainly not saying. In fact, being fucked over spiritually can be some of the most difficult and damaging stuff, and most certainly REAL. Most people cannot readily see the damage and may think you are nuts, or just overly-sensitive, or imaging things! It is awful and unhelpful. I know.

Sure, I may have been a bruise to the ego or two, but it's not like anything important was affected...

Ah, the kicker. (I gathered that was sarcasm.) It's all about you and your ego, right!? WRONG! After all, because others cannot see the states of mind you are struggling with, or the demons that are very real. Why would they be concerned for you at all? They cannot see the shit you wrestle with, and that just renders them ignorant, unsympathetic fools.

To relate this all back to practice: there is much to be learned from falling down, or even being put down. However, I certainly don't recommend that anyone appoint themselves some official Putter-downer of others (Which, is my big beef with some so-called-self-appointed trickster-wannabees who go around thinking they need to teach people a lesson. My experience teaches me that these people are damaged too, though.) Instead, we need more people who understand enough to help people out of those dark, damaging places - whether they are in this world, another, or in someone's mind. These are still all very real.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:17 / 15.08.07
I am not saying that your experiences weren't damaging and negative, Live. --M.O.

Excuse me, it seems I was unclear. The post above was addressed to brother gerorge and referred to his comments rather than to yours, Medulla.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:40 / 15.08.07
To relate this all back to practice: there is much to be learned from falling down, or even being put down. However, I certainly don't recommend that anyone appoint themselves some official Putter-downer of others (Which, is my big beef with some so-called-self-appointed trickster-wannabees who go around thinking they need to teach people a lesson. My experience teaches me that these people are damaged too, though.)

It may be my heigtened emotional state and admitted tendency to paranoia, but I'm reading that as an attack on me. If I'm right, please stop kicking the back of my chair and engage with the topic at hand. If I'm incorrect, of course, I apologise wholeheartedly.

Instead, we need more people who understand enough to help people out of those dark, damaging places - whether they are in this world, another, or in someone's mind. These are still all very real.

I'd point out that if someone is damaged enough, they cease to be able to assist others even if they want to. It's impossible to lead anyone out of the darkness whe you're still stuck in there yourself. Hence, the writing about magic and stuff in the hopes that people's practices will be strengthened thereby, and they will be less vulnerable to error or to abuse.
 
 
Quantum
11:18 / 15.08.07
You seem pretty awake to me, Quantum. What were you expecting?

I just bristle a bit when sleeping/waking metaphors are employed. I don't hold with the idea that bad things are the universe's wake-up call, it's not a model I find useful.

I do understand why people subscribe to the trial by fire/whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger/every obstacle is a stepping stone sort of view, but for me having a warning means you can avoid the problems and still learn the lesson.
I'd rather think 'Gosh, that was close, note to self' than 'Ow, owwy ow ow ouchy, note to self'. So I'd pretty much agree with Mordant, you don't *have* to go through all the trauma in life to learn the lessons, that's doing things the hard way.
 
 
Papess
13:12 / 15.08.07
It may be my heigtened emotional state and attmitted tendency to paranoia, but I'm reading that as an attack on me. If I'm right, please stop kicking the back of my chair and engage with the topic at hand. If I'm incorrect, of course, I apologise wholeheartedly.

I am not attacking you, Live. I have had self-appointed trickster types walk in to my life, tell me lies and tell me it is for my own good.


I just bristle a bit when sleeping/waking metaphors are employed.

Well, it is a common metaphor used in Buddhism.

I don't hold with the idea that bad things are the universe's wake-up call, it's not a model I find useful.

I never said they are the universe's wake-up call. That isn't a useful model at all.

I do understand why people subscribe to the trial by fire/whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger/every obstacle is a stepping stone sort of view, but for me having a warning means you can avoid the problems and still learn the lesson.

"Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger..."? That is a typo, right? Heh.

Yes, how wonderful if we could all just learn by warnings, but we don't.

I'd rather think 'Gosh, that was close, note to self' than 'Ow, owwy ow ow ouchy, note to self'. So I'd pretty much agree with Mordant, you don't *have* to go through all the trauma in life to learn the lessons, that's doing things the hard way.

Yes, I agree with you both. We don't *have* to go through trauma in our lives. Apparently, however, both MC and myself have - to name a couple of humans. I bet there are others! Just a guess. Bad things happen. People misjudge and ignore the warnings. Sometimes, no matter how careful you are the bad things happen anyway! Even heeding all warnings and such. We make mistakes and go through all sorts of BS.

SURE, I would love it if no one had to go through bad stuff, but we all do. In the meantime, what do you suggest we do with those experiences? Get angry that these things happened and not learn from them?

MC:I'd point out that if someone is damaged enough, they cease to be able to assist others even if they want to.

Yes, that is true. People can still do some good even if they are damaged, however. It is a good idea to work on ourself first, if that is possible.

It's impossible to lead anyone out of the darkness whe you're still stuck in there yourself. Hence, the writing about magic and stuff in the hopes that people's practices will be strengthened thereby, and they will be less vulnerable to error or to abuse.

Warning people of danger is a great idea, but there is no guarantee that people will listen. Therefore, if (more likely, when) they eventually do fall to error or abuse, they will need to find a way out of that without being ridiculed for their bad practice or denying their experiences. Learning from those experiences, once one has them, is the only way to grow from them. Insisting that they shouldn't have happened, even though they DID, is not helpful. That is more damaging to the self.
 
 
Ticker
13:13 / 15.08.07
a body goes offline for a day and misses the party...

Now that the ego burn has settled down a bit it's a lot easier for me to appreciate that my practice produced a fairly intense result. sure it included a free trip on an ejection seat flying through the dizzying WTF vortex but now that the dust has settled a bit I'm very excited to find myself in new lands and understanding.

It seems self evident to say that in working towards improvement we maybe surprised by where we end up. Having never lived in A Better Place I shouldn't be so surprised that's radically different than I imagined. I'm slowly getting over the shock of it as if my brane can't quite process moving my body without fifty pound weights around my feet so I keep over doing it. I know I'll adjust I can see I am already.

One of my mentors said an amazingly simple yet insightful thing yesterday. The ego does nothing but hold one back it never advances us on a truly meaningful path. If I look to where the 'All or Nothing' perception Live Things is describing arises in me it is from my ego's reading of the map of my life. Like a puffed up driver unable to admit the need for directions or being lost it does nothing productive while standing around making everyone else miserable.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:55 / 15.08.07
On the subject of bad teachers, the worst are those that project there own fears and paranoias onto others, and then decide you have issues. Thats called not being self responsible, blame the other for everything.

Basically the kind of characters that use you as a dump for there shit, otherwise known as abusers. To be avoided at all costs, and it undermines the value of anything else they have to teach.

The abuse comes in the form of them seeing you as the other, without them recognising there own fears projected and magnified by whatever justifications they care to use to consciously hurt other people for past hurts.

To be avoided at all costs.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
16:47 / 15.08.07
maybe the best response to teachers in general, and bad teachers in particular, is to consider yourself as your own teacher, and all these other clowns are providing you with material.

it's yours to take or leave. You don't have to believe everything a "teacher" tells you. You don't have to believe anything a "teacher" tells you.

although, it pays to learn to discriminate between which information serves your intent, and which impedes it.
 
 
Sublime Pathos
04:20 / 17.08.07
I've never used a teacher and I never will aside from that great punisher and lover of fuck-ups, the universe. The issue with most people that consider themselves a teacher, advanced in their years, a mentor, high adeptus maximus; the unchecked ego starts to creep in if it hasn't already set up full root. This will limit the growth of the student with a teacher as much as it limits the growth of the teacher. I really enjoy peer networks such as this, it teaches as well keeps people humbled by constantly attacking their bullshit.
 
  

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