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Assessing your own practice

 
  

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Papess
14:32 / 06.08.07
If you want to talk of those mistakes, I can understand that. I have experiences like that myself where I feel I went in the completely wrong direction and I was damaged because of it. That was the state of my mind at the time. However, it was a part of my path, it helped shape me and get me to where I am today. There is no denying that.

I am not saying you shouldn't want to help others avoid some pitfalls if that is your intention, but approaching others with your own experiences may be more helpful than telling them how wrong they are working their magick. Sometimes, people just need to go through stuff and the more my own practice matures, the more I feel a greater need for patience with those who are stuck in damaging cycles. I don't believe in telling people they have an "inferior practice" is helpful at all. It may make one feel all self-important for a few minutes - till one realises what a judgemental ass one is being. However, that self-reflection may be slow to come if they are too focused on what other people are doing instead of themself.

XK: Something I've run across in a lot of male magician writings from various traditions is the Goddess is to be revered but the earthly female can be trod on with no concern. So the admonishment if one reveres the Divine Female to not make the mental mistake of segregating this from your human interactions makes sense to me.

Oh Goddess! Yes! *sigh*

Having a close relationship with Venus should foster this same process of letting go of prejudices about female people, and if the symptoms of the prejudice remain, then it follows that one may not be having a mutual learning experience. YMMV.

And these things do take time and can be frustrating to watch people struggle with, or to struggle with oneself.

*Psst! I am viewing you all as the embodiment of the Goddess right now!*
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:32 / 06.08.07
XK: yeah, pretty much. There's sort of two things going on there: one, I would expect the practitioner to consciously seek out and embrace experiences, things and people that seemed resonant of that God; two, I would expect, over time, that those things/people/experiences would begin to make themselves manifest in the person's life as a natural result of hir practice.
 
 
Papess
14:33 / 06.08.07
Sorry, the first bit of my post above is directed to Live.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:50 / 06.08.07
Sometimes, people just need to go through stuff and the more my own practice matures, the more I feel a greater need for patience with those who are stuck in damaging cycles. I don't believe in telling people they have an "inferior practice" is helpful at all.

Which is why I try to save the ranting for generalities, and attempt to maintain a more courteous line of communication with individuals. The times when I've ditched courtesy and shouted at individual people have all been times where they've attacked me first, or attacked some group or tradition in an unacceptable way (sexist attacks on women, racist attacks on Vodou, and so forth). Also, when I do write or speak all Ranty McRantperson, it's from a place of genuine anger and frustration rather than some counterfeit adopted to make myself look good or make the other person feel small.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:59 / 06.08.07
approaching others with your own experiences may be more helpful than telling them how wrong they are working their magick.

I do that. Frequently. I constantly share my own practice here in the Temple, often dipping into quite intimate aspects or relating past errors if I think that this might be valuable for other posters. I do the same in my other writings, and in dialogue with other practitioners.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
17:00 / 06.08.07
It would be ideal to have oneself together, but it is also unlikely that anyone would start deity work, or any other magickal practice if one waited till such time. The time to practice is NOW.

I think the time to practice is when it can be undertaken with joy and/or a sense of purpose - most other times don't provide as much mommentum to start off and carry through, so it's best to be patient as haste makes waste.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:46 / 06.08.07
The effect that Deity work of various kinds can have on your life is certainly very real. It is important therefore to get your attitude on straight before you get into the relationship

It is very discouraging. It would be ideal to have oneself together, but it is also unlikely that anyone would start deity work, or any other magickal practice if one waited till such time. The time to practice is NOW.


That is not only taking what I wrote completely out of the context of the article, but out of the context of my last two-and-a-half year's worth of posting on Barbelith. It would be hilarious if it didn't make me want to slam my head repeatedly into the wall.

At no point in the article do I suggest that people need to have themselves 100% together to perform deity work or any other kind of magical practice. At no point have I ever suggested this. Ever. I certainly didn't have myself 100% together when I started deity work (and I know that you were following that particular trainwreck, M.O., since you were actively involved in the discussion). I've never made any secret of my psychiatric or neurological problems here either. I don't think I'd know 100% togetherness if it jumped up and bit me on the nose. In fact, I believe that I have been quite clear in my belief that people should not eschew a magical practice simply because they have complicated lives, mental health needs, or emotional problems--simply that everyone should be aware of the potential impact of a magical practice on their problems and take that into account when deciding how much and what to do, when.

Here is the quote again, in its full context:

A word here seems necessary on the subject of human/Deity relationships in general. One thing I cannot stress enough, and which gets overlooked by a lot of magicians writing and practising today, is that the Gods and spirits are not there simply for your convenience. They are not king-sized Montessori school teachers whose job it is to hold your hand and coax you gently through your education. They are vast and old and potentially dangerous. You do not get to turn up on the God’s doorstep and demand to be taken care of.

In my experience it sometimes doesn’t matter very much if you believe in the literal, objective existence of the Deity or not. You might have decided that you’re working with archetypes or “godforms,” but They may well choose to come out and be real at you anyway. They’re older than you, and have had considerably more practice in being real than you have had in not believing in Them. The effect that Deity work of various kinds can have on your life is certainly very real. It is important therefore to get your attitude on straight before you get into the relationship.


At no point do I imply that the reader must have a four-bedroomed house in the suburbs and a jacuzzi in the basement before ze takes up deity work. My point was simply that the idea of Gods as cosmic vending machines for Free Stuff or as the servants of the mighty mighty will-ful mage, is likely to land one in hot water. Getting the right attitude here refers to going into a relationship with a deity with respect and compassion in your heart, as I hope the rest of the article makes clear.
 
 
Ticker
18:23 / 06.08.07
It's hard though, Live Things, as many people do not have direct experience to understand what is being said is a suggestion of etiquette rather than an absolute law. Nor do most people have the insight of understanding the function of etiquette is not a glib social exercise but a means to effective interaction.

I can say when one is in the company of older ladies from New England one should watch one's language. I might be misunderstood and the reader might react as if my 'should' was a 'must' and then argue with me about my intent in making this suggestion in the first place.

The older ladies, and indeed the Deities, will react as t/They will and not everyone is able to learn from the examples of others requiring instead painful unpleasant firsthand experiences.

When I offer people insights it is usually along the lines of etiquette and I find many people are unable to understand it is *not* do unto others as you would have done onto you, but do onto others as they wish done onto them.
 
 
Papess
19:01 / 06.08.07
I do that. Frequently. I constantly share my own practice here in the Temple...

Yes, you do, sometimes. Other times, you don't. If I specifically refer to that article, then there is very little to go on in the way of your own experience that is conveyed as such. There is a whole lot of what seems like assumptions made about what is best for every person's individual practice. Or what is even considered to be "real" experiences wrapped in snarkiness for entertainment. I mean, the whole thing about having tea with Kali - why not? I have experienced this quite a few times. In your world my experiences become "inferior" and I can be viewed as a nutter, perhaps. I believe what is "authentic" is what truly speaks to one's heart. That is the measure I think that people should use. We shouldn't be feeling pressured to measure up to someone else's ideas about what is superior, or inferior practice, or what is a genuine experience or not. I agree that it is important to assess ourselves and our practice, I just don't think you have supplied the tools for everyone to assess themselves with. Yet, your article is written as if it is fact and not your subjective experience.

Mako:I think the time to practice is when it can be undertaken with joy and/or a sense of purpose - most other times don't provide as much mommentum to start off and carry through, so it's best to be patient as haste makes waste.

I realise what you are coming from, Mako. However, I am not suggesting one should be hasty with their practice. I am saying if we wait around till we are joyful and purposeful and with the perfect conditions for practice, then we may never even attempt to practice. Years may pass by. When, if we had already begun to practice we may find that it brings us to that place of joy and purpose. One can take small steps if needed, but, practice is foundational and core to a magician's work. Whatever that practice is.

Now, I say this because I have spent a long time waiting for the "right time" when I could have made the right time be anytime. All I needed to do is sit down and breathe! The myriad of excuses I have come up with. On the other hand, and to honour your point, Mako, I truly understand being in the state of mind where one feels completely helpless to do such a simple thing. I do understand this, and in that case, all I can do is pray that that person can eventually feel strong enough to train their mind and get beyond suffering and delusion. I cannot help them by telling them how inferior they are, or their practice is.

I apologise also because I should have quoted my source for that saying: "The time to practice is now! or possibly, "The time to practice is today!" is a quote from Jigme Lingpa (1729-1798), the founder of the Long-chen Nying-thig tradition. I am trying to find the passage I saw it in, but it escapes me, ATM.
 
 
Papess
19:08 / 06.08.07
It's hard though, Live Things, as many people do not have direct experience to understand what is being said is a suggestion of etiquette rather than an absolute law.

Yes, unfortunately, the article is written as if it is law and fact.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
19:24 / 06.08.07
On the other hand, and to honour your point, Mako, I truly understand being in the state of mind where one feels completely helpless to do such a simple thing.

And to honor yours, I'm not saying to avoid practice just because you don't happen to feel like it - what I'm saying is that part of a good practice is acknowledging that one's own temple should be put in order before praying in it; ideally the two can be combined, but sometimes its just nice to have waffers and wine simply for the sake of having waffers and wine.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:57 / 06.08.07
Yes, you do, sometimes. Other times, you don't.

I do it a lot. Do I have to back up everything I say with a chunk of autobiography? Nah.

If I specifically refer to that article, then there is very little to go on in the way of your own experience that is conveyed as such.

The whole piece is peppered with little asides about my own practice and qualifiers such as "In my experience..." I cut a lot more out because I felt that in this particular bit of writing I had more important things to do than talk endlessly about myself.

Everything I wrote in that article represents a sincere attempt to get across the things I really believe, based on my own experience. I do not accept that taking a firm tone when you're talking about things that really matter to you is wrong. I think it is especially important for FI writers to vigourously resist a culturally indoctrinated tendency to weaken their writing with constant qualifiers of the "well this is just what I think, silly little thing that I am!" kind.

There is a whole lot of what seems like assumptions made about what is best for every person's individual practice.

Such as? I thought I was pretty careful to leave things flexible, since I'm aware that we are all very different and that an individual's practice may change radically over time. The only things I assert as generally a good idea are things like evaluation of one's practice, journalling, being ready to question and interrogate one's experiences, etc.: record, question, adapt. I've never met anyone who claimed that hir successful, functional magical practice required that ze did not keep notes, or that ze must accept everything ze experienced on the astral plane as hard grave-in-stone fact, or that ze must never ever alter a lick of hir practice no matter what.

Or what is even considered to be "real" experiences wrapped in snarkiness for entertainment. I mean, the whole thing about having tea with Kali - why not? I have experienced this quite a few times.

If you review that passage you will see nothing that says you can't have a peaceful, loving encounter with Kali. That might simply be the face of the Goddess that you needed to see at that time. What I actually did there was to present the image of a trite, vapid information-free encounter where a Goddess acts less in accordance with some aspect of Her nature as generally reported by Her devotees and more like your mate Denise from the hairdressers, along with the suggestion (and it is phrased as a suggestion, mind) that if such an interaction had occured one might have to consider the possibility that it may not have been Kali. Yes, it's a little snarky. It's meant to entertain the reader, perhaps by evoking the memory of something equally excruciating buried in her magical journals from when she was 17.

In your world my experiences become "inferior" and I can be viewed as a nutter, perhaps.

No.

I believe what is "authentic" is what truly speaks to one's heart. That is the measure I think that people should use.

That sounds lovely, but it doesn't stand up. There are lots of people in heathenry who describe interactions where they eg journeyed to Asgard and drank mead with Odin, who informed them that their first duty as a noble Warrior of the Folk was to make sure that non-Europeans aren't allowed into Asatru. I'm sure that these astral trips spoke very loudly to their hearts, too.

We shouldn't be feeling pressured to measure up to someone else's ideas about what is superior, or inferior practice, or what is a genuine experience or not.

No, no-one should feel pressured to measure up to some abstract standard of what a "real" human-Deity interaction "ought" to look like. However I have absolutely no problem with telling someone who claims to have fought and killed a God that no, they didn't. I do not believe that every single reported experience deserves to be treated with the same loving respect, no matter how ludicrous or self-serving it may be.

I agree that it is important to assess ourselves and our practice, I just don't think you have supplied the tools for everyone to assess themselves with.

Well no, of course I haven't. I've supplied a knockoff Swiss army knife which will help hold things together until the reader has assembled hir own toolkit through experience.

Yet, your article is written as if it is fact and not your subjective experience.

I don't know how to respond to this statement, except to re-iterate what I said above re: weakening and undermining my writing with lots and lots of apologetic little linguistic curtseys, which ain't going to happen. Of course it's my subjective experience. What else is it going to be? Are you seriously suggesting that anyone reading that piece is going to assume that I have some kind of hotline ot the Divine? What am I, Pope Mordant the First? No, I'm just another dope with a practice and an internet connection.

I stand by what I wrote and how I wrote it. It comes from a lifetime of--sometimes bitter and painful--personal experience, and several years of incredibly frustrating interactions with people who have eg. fought the Evil Dark Goddess Kali to the DEATH. If mocking people who've killed Kali is wrong, I just don't want to be right.
 
 
Papess
19:59 / 06.08.07
Fair enough, Mako. I think I understand the point you make.

Ultimately, it really doesn't matter to me what anyone believes is good practice for oneself. I only take issue when things are presented in such a way which makes it seem as if it is good, authentic practice for all.

You may tell me I am full of shite, but I believe (Notice how I own that using "I" statements instead of "You" statements?)...I believe that if one gives too much focus to what other people are doing, especially to the point of anger and frustration, they have indeed lost the focus on their own practice. That is just my opinion, but it may be something to think about when getting worked up and distracted over what other people are doing.

Just to be clear, it is really none of my business to be judging what anyone else's practice is all about, or IMO what it is lacking, but don't try to tell me what is and isn't authentic and proper with my own practice.

Back to Mako:...what I'm saying is that part of a good practice is acknowledging that one's own temple should be put in order before praying in it; ideally the two can be combined, but sometimes its just nice to have waffers and wine simply for the sake of having waffers and wine.

That could make a wonderful practice! Or not. :-)
 
 
Papess
20:01 / 06.08.07
...don't know how to respond to this statement, except to re-iterate what I said above re: weakening and undermining my writing with lots and lots of apologetic little linguistic curtseys, which ain't going to happen.

Why not? Why can't you be bothered to do what you expect of others?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:03 / 06.08.07
I don't expect others to undermine themselves.
 
 
Papess
20:04 / 06.08.07
Furthermore, no one is asking for apologies. I am asking you to write in a way that you own your own subjective experience.
 
 
Papess
20:05 / 06.08.07
I am not asking you to undermine yourself, either. Read my last post.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:25 / 06.08.07
Furthermore, no one is asking for apologies. I am asking you to write in a way that you own your own subjective experience.

I believe that I do own my subjective experience throughout the article. The fact that the whole thing is my subjective experience should be immediately apparent to any reader with half a clue and a pair of glasses, because it's an article about magic. The tone is deliberately informal. As I stated before, the piece is peppered with little asides that tie the whole thing into my own practice and experience without turning it into a wankfest. "I" statements? What, you mean like these:

...I see this behaviour across all paths and all modes of magic...
...update regularly – preferably daily, although I know how that is. Ideally I would say you should keep several journals...
...I like to keep my ritual journals in students’ lab books if I can get hold of them...
...I’m not saying that every single ritual has to be conducted like a military operation...
...I was personally involved in some of those workings and don’t regret the attempt. I’m heartily sorry that we failed to keep Bush out of office, but we failed...
...Not that there’s anything wrong with self-aggrandising narratives per se – I’ve been known to enjoy the odd one or two myself...
...I have had some wrenchingly miserable interactions myself...which have proved on investigation to be my own hangups in wigs and false noses...
...I’ve brought injuries back with me into meatspace; actual verifiable physical changes have occurred. Conversely I’ve had meatspace damage fixed up Out There...
...In my experience it sometimes doesn’t matter very much if you believe in the literal, objective existence of the Deity or not...
...If I had to sum up my own approach to evaluating my practice in a single phrase, that phrase would be “what if this was all a load of bollocks?” What if I were to wake up and realise that the whole thing, the full spectrum of my magical and spiritual experience, was a delusion..?


There were more, but myself and the editor both agreed that they weakened the piece rather than strengthened it so we took 'em out. I don't believe that putting "I"-this and "I"-that necessarily makes a more worthwhile or more effective piece. In fact, I associate the overuse of the first-person singular with people who'd rather talk about themselves than the topic at hand.

I know that FI writers are expected to blanket every sentence in a soft and comforting layer of "well this is just my tiny fuzzy opinion..." I've been attacked over this in the past--I refuse to write in an acceptably "female" way, and this gives people who have issues with women writers in general (or issues with me personally) a way to stick the boot in.

Everything I put there is my truth, spoken in my true voice. That is how I speak. I don't see why I should femme down in case I upset someone.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
20:28 / 06.08.07
I don't expect others to undermine themselves.

I do, though more from a sense that that's what the subconscious likes to do in order to promote growth, than because I hold others to my personal standard of taking an actively conscious role in this process.
 
 
Papess
21:15 / 06.08.07
believe that I do own my subjective experience throughout the article. The fact that the whole thing is my subjective experience should be immediately apparent to any reader with half a clue and a pair of glasses...

There you go again. Insults to state your case. I suppose that I haven't got a clue? If I didn't know you from Barbelith I wouldn't have any idea as to where you were getting your information from. If I was impressionable enough, I might actually think you were an authority. Maybe that is what you wer going for?

Yes, it is apparent to me that it is a subjective experience, but you do not interact with the reader in that manner. You do use "I statements", but the piece is full of "If you are doing so and so then...(insert negative judgemental comment here)". Just using the "I" statements is not enough if right after it you are telling the reader what is right and wrong, and authentic and not authentic.

If you prefer to get defensive then I am wasting my time. If I were to esteem my own article with an authoritative tone, and then be reluctant to "water down" (as you have put it) my article by not using generalisations and judgements about what and how other people's practices should be, I would have to stop and wonder why I felt threatened to do so (editor's agenda aside) and rethink what my actual intentions were for writing it in that manner. If you don't feel you have to do that, fine. Sorry to waste our time.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:46 / 06.08.07
There you go again. Insults to state your case. I suppose that I haven't got a clue?

No, that's not an insult directed against you. It's a statement to the effect that any reasonable person coming across that article could be expected to understand that it was derived from someone's subjective experience.

If I didn't know you from Barbelith I wouldn't have any idea as to where you were getting your information from. If I was impressionable enough, I might actually think you were an authority. Maybe that is what you were going for?

Why would anyone think that? Can you point to anything in that article which implies that I'm an authority--titles, grades, affiliations, that sort of thing? Do you really think that there's a risk that some notional impressionable person is going to assume that some random article in a webzine must of course be written by an Authority, and be horribly misled thereby?

Yes, I choose to write in a manner that suggests I am sure that what I am saying is valid and worth writing about. I don't see how that's a bad thing.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
21:49 / 06.08.07
There you go again. Insults to state your case.

I have to agree that I do tend to notice this in your writings (having been on the recieving end myself) however I'm educated enough to appreciate that any literary criticism tends to reveal more about the critics own thought processes than about what the author intended, and that a substantial understanding of the author and their works is rarely achieved.

I quite like this thread, so I'm going to point out that what's going on now is basically how Bill Clinton got out of being impeached - he argued until everyone stopped giving a fuck because they were so fed up with it. While this makes for an amusing annecdote in politics, it tends to be a death sentance to decent threads such as this - maybe we could start up a "hijack this" thread so that bickering tangents will have a place to call their own?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:51 / 06.08.07
You do use "I statements", but the piece is full of "If you are doing so and so then...(insert negative judgemental comment here)".

Yes. And all the things I said that about were, IMO, dodgy. If you want me to give equal weight and respect to "I have had the experience of sharing tea with Kali" and "I got in a fight with Kali on the astral plane, assumed my were-dragon form and KILLED Her," I rather think we shall have to agree to differ.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:10 / 06.08.07
Medulla, if you are actually motived by some genuine concern about the possible negative effects on impressionable folk who believe everything they read oin webzines, why not write your lovingly crafted riposte to my article and send it to the same publication?

Well, I'm out now anyhow. Anyone who needs to talk about any of this will just have to take it to PMs or start a new thread.
 
 
illmatic
05:28 / 07.08.07
I quite like this thread

I don't. It reads to me more like people who've had arguments with Mordant taking the opportunity to get in a crafty dig more than reasoned criticism.

I think the article is excellent, and most of the criticisms above seem rather insubstantial.

I have to agree that I do tend to notice this in your writings (having been on the recieving end myself)

Poor you. Ever thought why?
 
 
EvskiG
12:11 / 07.08.07
I also thought the article was excellent.

Solid, grounded, practical, common sense advice to the aspiring magician based on painfully-acquired experience.

Also saw no problem with the lack of qualifiers. When giving advice, sometimes it's helpful to state things flatly -- for the sake of clarity and emphasis -- and let readers discover the exceptions and qualifiers for themselves as (and if) they gain experience.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:00 / 07.08.07
Mako, in particular I'm interested in your likening of Mordant, as far as I can tell, to Bill Clinton. Could you explain to me the precise process by which Clinton escaped impeachment? Clearly you are familiar with the case, and I am sure that sharing your knowledge would be not only a profoundly interesting but also a deeply magickal act.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:48 / 07.08.07
I don't know how to respond to this statement, except to re-iterate what I said above re: weakening and undermining my writing with lots and lots of apologetic little linguistic curtseys, which ain't going to happen. Of course it's my subjective experience. What else is it going to be?

I am very much reminded, reading this exchange, of some of the objections that are often trotted out whenever a certain type of person reads any music or other cultural criticism worth its salt. These people tend to be either unfamiliar or uncomfortable with the basics of what makes a good writing style, or else they are simply so insecure that they cannot cope with reading another person’s opinion unless it resembles the parody Seth offered up here.

This tends to come hand in hand with a belief that if the term “in my own personal opinion” is constantly repeated, like David Sullivan on Brass Eye, that somehow means both that nobody has the right to disagree, nor can anything which you have said be criticised – “how can I be wrong when it is just my own personal opinion?” This has been employed by many Barbelith trolls over the years, most notably Bruno, although regular members have occasionally fallen into the even worse malapropism of using “I feel” to mean “I think” as if someone that means can’t get mad can’t get mad not touching not touching. It is often served with lashings of misplaced smugness, as demonstrated by Medulla Oblongata here:

(Notice how I own that using "I" statements instead of "You" statements?)...

Now watch as we are all accused of being Live things' attack munchkins.
 
 
Ticker
14:34 / 07.08.07
It is my practice right now to say please stop throwing wood on the fire. Please stop assuming you know anything about the other poster's agenda or intent in writing anything in thread or in articles. We do not know what is in their heads or heart only what we select to pay attention to.

we are all making assumptions right now and it's getting us a big handful of hurt and misery. I understand some people are showing up to add support and protection where they think it is needed (including myself) but please ask yourself are you helping people to understand each other?

It is my opinion that the approach on this page is making things worse and harder for the posters engaged in conflict to understand each other. My agenda is I'd like posters who do contribute and have the best interests of the Temple to try and understand each other. I politely ask that unless you are able and willing to listen without pre judging please take some time not posting and come back with some compassion.

If you are chasing people into corners or painting them there you are losing the chance to learn from them, especially as there are only long time invested posters participating in this discussion.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:44 / 07.08.07
What makes an "Authority" anyway, in writings about magic? I thought the essay was great, and as far as I'm concerned the only criteria for judging an authority on a subject is whether or not the experiences and perspectives recounted seem to ring true. In Mordant's article, they emphatically do. All of the opinions expressed sounds like they have come from hard-earned experience, and that for me makes a good article. It's up to the reader to have the critical ability to decide, based on their own experience, the extent to which they agree with the perspectives forwarded. Anyone looking for an "Authority" on magic who will spoon feed the enlightened truth about magic and can be considered infallible in all matters of occultism, needs to check themselves more than anyone. There are no Authorities, just people like us getting their hands dirty and then reporting back, and hoping that their reports prove useful to someone further down the line.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:58 / 07.08.07
Speaking personally, I am purely interested in the history of an area of politics where I clearly have the opportunity to learn much about the highest levels of American law from an expert in the field. Perhaps it might be best to do it by PM, though, or in a thread in the Switchboard.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
15:31 / 07.08.07
Mako, in particular I'm interested in your likening of Mordant, as far as I can tell, to Bill Clinton.

I'm not likening Mordant to Bill Clinton, I'm likening the bickering tangent in this thread and its affect on it to the bickering tangent that Clinto used, in part, to gain him an acquittal by a Senate (and public opinion) which seemed to get worn out by it all. Basically what I'm saying is that this tangent doesn't do much for the purpose of the thread, and I'd rather not see this thread destroyed by it.
 
 
electric monk
15:45 / 07.08.07
To restate:

Perhaps it might be best to do it by PM, though, or in a thread in the Switchboard.

Basically what I'm saying, Mako, is that the comparison you're making doesn't do much for the purpose of the thread, and I'd rather not see this thread destroyed by it.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
15:52 / 07.08.07
: )
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:55 / 07.08.07
So, this thread is ... the process of impeaching the President of the United States of America? And Medulla Oblongata, Mordant Carnival, and everybody else who has been involved in the thread lately are, collectively, Bill Clinton? That's a vibrant piece of metaphor, although not one I think that the Senate or Cheryl Mills would necessarily support on factual grounds. However, Switchboard or PM for that, I think.

As it is, however, my one piece of advice would be that if you want to present yourself, to self or others, as the restorer of order, it's best not to make a partisan point on the argument first, and then go "but now everyone has to stop arguing". This is what we in the biz call "trying to get the last word", and since the Internet does not have the handy mechanisms usually provided for putting the cap on such attempts - pointing over the interlocutor's shoulder and running away, putting fingers in ears and singing "LALALALALALA", et hoc genus omne, it almost never works, qv here.
 
  

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