BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Assessing your own practice

 
  

Page: (1)234

 
 
Saturn's nod
16:19 / 22.04.07
From time to time I wonder about how to assess the effectiveness of my practice. Mostly I think if I am doing something consciously, that's a good start. I was interested to hear the other day from a friend that his tradition has some well-formulated ideas about how to tell whether your practice is 'working'.

My paraphrase of some of the ideas he listed:

You feel less stressed.
You feel less angry.
You feel less uptight.
You experience an increased capacity to deal with people and situations.
Everything seems more harmonious than it used to.
When other people have a problem with you, you don't have a problem with that.
You will dream lucidly more often and when you go lucid you will remember to do your practice in the dream.

Another route could be:

Are the hungry getting fed?
Are the hearts of the brokenhearted being bound up?
Are tears being wiped away?
Are the wounded getting proper treatment?
Are those who are worst off getting the best possible help?
Is the number of people who are able to help themselves and co-operate with each other increasing?
Are conflicts being handled in a way which allows a constructive outcome?

Any thoughts? Is it important to you to assess the effect of your practice? How do you measure it, if it is?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:31 / 22.04.07
Is it important to you to assess the effect of your practice?

Oh fuck yes. There is nothing, nothing at all, that is more important.

We all sacrifice resources of one kind or another, whether it's simple time and effort that could be put into other things, or more concrete sacrifices. You can't just take, take, take from the world around you and never worry about giving back. Magic without an eye on the overall benefits--not just to you but the people around you--is dead magic. Wanker's magic: occult masturbation passing itself off as progress.

If your magic is not increasing your overall effectivness as a member of the human race--if it's not making you stronger, wiser and more loving--it's time to stop and look at where you're going wrong. This isn't to say that you can never have any periods where the losses outweigh the benefits. You can and you will. The trick is to know when to cash in your chips and get out of the game.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:37 / 22.04.07
Also, this:

Are the hungry getting fed?
Are the hearts of the brokenhearted being bound up?
Are tears being wiped away?
Are the wounded getting proper treatment?
Are those who are worst off getting the best possible help?
Is the number of people who are able to help themselves and co-operate with each other increasing?
Are conflicts being handled in a way which allows a constructive outcome?


...is absolutely beautiful. I could not sum up my hopes for my own practice any better.
 
 
the Kite
17:43 / 22.04.07
My first thought: noting the practice and evaluating results. I stand by that answer, adding that if we do not evaluate the results of our practice, we have no feedback with which to know whether to continue the practice at the risk of wasting our time.

But I'm guessing you knew all that already, and I feel the need to expand as suggested to me by the preceding posts. If you'll excuse me, I'll add a link to a part of my website dealing with Will.

link

(godsdammit it doesn't link. Anyway, on the Kite's Cradle, the page called Will)

It goes: we achieve unified will by meeting certain universal needs for a fulfilled existence.

We choose sensory-based evidence that we are fulfilling such needs. Et voila. For the moment, in an ongoing process.

One more item. As a magician, I look for evidence that I am taking responsibility for my existence. I consider that a huge measure of the success or otherwise of my magical practice.
 
 
This Sunday
17:49 / 22.04.07
I find the simplest questions fulfilling as scale. Have I not starved to death yet? When I'd like something over my head or stopping the wind, rain, and general outside-ness, do walls, ceiling, and airconditioning present themselves readily? Can I be without a phone when I don't want one without sacrificing the ability to have phone access when I desire it? Have any really big nukes been dropped in my general vicinity? Can the same be said for other people? Am I responsible or somehow conducive to a 'no' answer for any of those? Other than that, it's mostly entertainment, I'm afraid.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:04 / 22.04.07
(Mod hat: Psst! Kite! Over here.)
 
 
Z. deScathach
20:54 / 22.04.07
To me, one of the greatest methods of examining one's pratice is to notice whether syncronicity is in operation. Do things show up just when they are needed? When you're in a quandry, does a shattering symbol just seem to pop up at just the right time that tells you what you need to know? When things are in a crisis state, do solutions seem to come up out of nowhere? Does it seem like you are communicating with the universe, that you can see it giving you messages through the symbols it offers? Magick is ultimately about communication. Are the lines of communication with the ALL set to a high bandwidth?

In terms of feeling settled and secure, I'm not sure that it's a good indicator. Magick brings you head on with parts of yourself that you previously haven't known. Sometimes that stuff can hit with the force of a head on crash. Sometimes insecurity is the raw stuff of transformation.

When the communication lines are on a high bandwidth, you know in an almost instinctive way what needs doing in order to make the world a little better place. It doesn't have to be big or titanic. If enough people do that, the world transforms. Guaranteed......
 
 
Sunfell
21:51 / 22.04.07
What an interesting and insightful question.

Is my practice working? I'd say so. Here are my own indicators:

I am happier and more content. I am not suffering from depression or any of its artifacts. My mind is clear and steady, and ready to learn new things. Even disturbing things can be taken in stride and dealt with without knocking me off balance.

My electronic servitors* are working properly, and my monetary investments are growing- some more slowly, and some more rapidly. But they are all growing. My debt is also rapidly shrinking, due to the same application of electronic servitors. For the first time in my life, I am living below my means. This is a Very Good Thing, as it will soon enable me to do things I have longed to do for a long time- like buying some land, and maybe a home.

I am in a place of emotional and psychic calm. I sleep well at night, have interesting, and sometimes insightful dreams, and have few health problems. My job is not a source of problems, and is serving as a springboard to deeper education in my field.

Opportunities are presenting themselves to me in various parts of my life, and I am now able to partake of them, where I could not before.

The ability to 'read' of people who find their way into my life is becoming more and more accurate, and my ability to hear and heed that little warning voice has kept me out of some real trouble. And that same little voice is feeding me tidbits of inspiration, and guiding me to people who are not toxic, and actually helpful and encouraging.

The revisiting of my old metaphysical training texts, including my Rosicrucian, Hermetic and Gnostic studies, has revealed an even deeper understanding of many things, along with new revalations and insights. I am now in an agnostic place in my journey, but this is not necessarily a bad thing.

And finally, I know that my personal practice is working because when I stopped concentrating on people and things outside my practice (like the local Pagan community) and walked away from all of it, I started feeling more at peace. I was standing on the bank for a long time, and now am back in the Current where I belong.

*The Automatic Millionaire was the text I used to start working on saving money and paying down my debt. I'm not one to flog books, but his system was simple, logical, and doable. Applying his suggestions has permitted me to save an impressive amount of money over five years, even on my fairly modest income. I just wish I'd found this book earlier...
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:54 / 23.04.07
Mine isnt working at all well, i am missing therapy, just quit a job, just destroyed my altar and am walking around with ahead full of anger depression and sorrow.

So perhaps it is best i quit it all for now and concentrate on other things, the rage is growing stronger and stronger day by day, i am losing control.

I am giving up everything except a couple of skull malas and contemplating impermanence, my head is all explody, my body aches and i feel under attack from all directions. Not had a good weekend and am having a really crap start to the week.

Practice is on hold indefinitely.
 
 
This Sunday
17:00 / 23.04.07
Please believe me that I'm not trying to be a jerk when I point out that that is the practice. And good luck with it.
 
 
Z. deScathach
17:26 / 23.04.07
One thing that I've found in my own practice is that rage almost naturally increases as a result. I've come to believe that this is due to an "energy meets conditioning" situation, as well as a n increasing awareness of things in general, some of them not so nice things. What's always helped me with that is non-resistance training. It's not easy, but if I can "energetically release" when something pisses me off, I can move that energy in other directions.
 
 
Z. deScathach
17:27 / 23.04.07
Of course there IS nothing wrong with taking time off.....
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:08 / 23.04.07
What just happened to me is very surprising (all internal, in my head) i just murdered a part of myself and it stopped.
Bloody weird, i have sacrificed parts of myself to myself before to allow me to progress, but this was like watching a dream in my head, which i had some very unpleasant ones of this morning.

I just murdered a small part of myself in my head, what a freaky place my mind is. My dreams were littered with murder and general mayhem and violence this morning, i thought that was the psychic backlash of the weekend, but oh no, it appears there is only calm after murder.

And now the alter is in a carrier bag off to a charity shop, and books are being bagged for the library, i think i will continue with that part, stick with tarot and drums for a while before i go back to deity work.

Get back to making music, writing songs and socialising abit more in the local goth scene.
 
 
Samael
19:13 / 23.04.07
Hello there,
It has been ages since I have even posted anything on here, just about as long since I have tried anything in a ritual sense in regards to magickal practice/whatever you will call anything. As such your question stirred me to pop up once again.

Insofar as how do you know your practice is working, well, one obvious test would be to see what if any results you wanted have come about due to your practices. This is granted, of course that your practices are more in the 'now' results driven kind and not so much for abstract achievements (such as changing long term things, subtle behavior patterns, etc.).

As such, yes it is important to measure whatever success or failure as you see it. How then would you know if you were really doing something, or just jerking off into the aether of the universe?

I have not taken any part in anything one might call overtly magickal in quite a while. Haven't even drawn a sigil nor charged any of the old servitors I created in ages, damn near a couple of years now I imagine. In this, I have felt a bit less a part of whatever energy this can create, yet, at the same time I have noticed that my will can still be enacted upon the universe, and indeed it has, sans certain elements or tools that might usually be of assistance. Granted, I do not simply look at someone, pull a Jedi mind trick and my bidding be done, hardly. But from the experience and knowledge gained from my past exploits, my perception has changed enough for me to see into and beyond what I at one time could see. As such, I have been able to notice where I stand, and perhaps where I will be standing down the road a bit.

So, use your perception, and tell yourself what you see, and let yourself be open to allowing what you see to be processed.

Rambling over, buh bye.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:35 / 23.04.07
The weird thing is i think i had to do this practice to get here now and see where this leads me, and i have a sense that after what has happened giving it up was the right thing to do, i feel somehow lighter in mood and being, like i have not so much lost something, but gained a new perspective, almost like a beginning.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
03:04 / 24.04.07
Is it important to you to assess the effect of your practice?

Well for starters I think it's important to assess what the purpose of the practice is; for me it's the manipulation of forces in order to achieve my desires, and so assessing the effects of my purpose/practice is very important in order to ensure that not only does it work, but it's rather effecient in doing so. Assessment also leads to improvement, so that a single event and experience can spawn multiple pathways of knowledge; for me it's not enough to think "I want a set of bathroom scales" and then coming home a few days later to notice someone has thrown some out, I also have to understand the cause and effect of this (if any) so that I can duplicate it in future.

How do you measure it, if it is?

Real world scenarios; if my desires arn't met then my practice isn't working, which means that accessment is necessary to discover the reasons why.
 
 
brother george
15:35 / 24.04.07
I guess that whatever practice you are doing is working if:

1) The practice gradually sorts out your world. What needs to be ditched get ditched, the important stuff get underlined, paths are opened to pursue the important stuff, lessons are given, you start learning how to listen. You are more eager to jump on opportunities than before, you tackle problems as they arise, you seem to become more optimistic.

2) The practice gradually gives you deeper depths of understanding of itself. It starts to work you instead, it becomes demanding. When you promise to do something and you get bored and watch TV, you get slapped on the head.

There's probably more but you can get the gist of it from these two.
Of course its important to measure it! If it doesn't work then what exactly are you doing ?
 
 
Sunfell
18:38 / 24.04.07
That's interesting- I have to deal with a lot of rage, too, and that disturbs me. It seems that I am constantly battling 'mental foes' in one way or another- in dreams, daydreams, and sometimes in real life, as well.

I'll admit that it disturbs me. Why the rage? Is it something wrong, or something normal that is part of the whole thing? I don't think that I am a particularly angry person, but sometimes I feel that the tides of stupidity, fear, and deliberate ignorance that surround me will wash me away. And it's not like I am 'superior' in any way- I try to leave ego out of it- no matter how 'great' people think I might be, I am still very much a student.

So, I deal with it the best I can, go forward when the Current is right, and stay out of it when the energies are not right. It's truly going with the flow. There are times when one has to down tools and rest, or even walk away for some time, if not permanently.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:11 / 24.04.07
I gave a truck load of books to the library today, which felt good and one bagged altar with jewelery to cancer research which felt good.

I also feel my practice although finished is now going to circulate across my town in some sense, interesting to see if the town becomes more Egyptian, whatever that means. I wonder if ritual used books and items carry a charge, forgive my imagination, but i do ponder how those objects more than books will be received, once offered up to the crossroads so to speak.

I am lightening my practice to tarot and drums, i think this is a safe retreat at present, as a bad practice can lead to a bad life all around as i have recently witnessed for myself.

But i have been so much lighter and happier today as a consequence, less threatened by a sense of attack, and more warm in general in my nature, i find it odd that i was trying to gain these things from practice, but in a sense here they were waiting for me, or perhaps i did go a little way into making them for myself.
 
 
Katherine
08:20 / 25.04.07
Wolf: Yes I would say items whether they are books or otherwise used in a ritual do contain energy, hence why cleansing second-hand equipment is always a good idea.


With my own practice I find it very important to every so often look at it and check all is well. It should be a challenge and stretch you every so often, but it should ultimately be rewarding.

One of the indicators for me is when things are going well the ease of finding good quality tools that I need and at a price I can afford without debt, usually I have to go without for a while but never do I go into debt (ie c/card bill I can't pay off for months).

Other ways would be pretty much the summary of the above posts.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
09:04 / 25.04.07
I wonder if ritual used books and items carry a charge

psychometry From the Greek psyche, "mind" + metrein, "to measure". A form of extra-sensory perception in which a psychic is said to be able to obtain information about an individual through paranormal means by making physical contact with an object that belongs to them.
 
 
betty woo
11:17 / 25.04.07
Rage is something that comes up for me as well, and it's actually one of the scarier things that I've encountered in my practice. It tends to arise from the side of my practice that's aimed at changing my internal world, and for me, seems to have a lot to do with integrating suppressed aspects of my personality. I was raised to believe that Anger=Bad and to contain those feelings whenever possible. Unsurprisingly, this has left a seething pool of rage festering below my mental surface. Sitting meditation has been a good practice for me on that front, although the first couple of times I tried to just sit and feel the rage without judging or describing it, I thought I was going to crawl out of my skin.

For the external stuff, I try to guage both whether things manifest (did that new job or apartment show up, for instance) and also the quality of that manifestation, how closely it matches my intent when it does show up. If the new job pays well but is dead boring, well, I need to assess my working to see why that happened and how I can improve my results next time.
 
 
Papess
14:51 / 25.04.07
Let's see....I am currently practicing celibacy for spiritual purposes, (for over six months now - four of those "official" dedication). So, if I am not having sex, that is generally a good indicator. I'm joking, a bit, but for someone like myself, it has given me a great liberation.

Feeling strong and effective is a good indication, and everything that everyone has already mentioned that are indications of a healthy spiritual life. I think it is important to be understanding with ourselves when spiritual or magickal practice/beliefs are creating upset in our lives. I don't think it has to be interpreted as failure, but an opportunity to persevere and overcome - maybe an indication of new methods/ideas that are being presented.

There have been other times when my magick practice revolved a lot around renunciation. So, some of the more typical manifestations of good practice - such as, a good job, or apartment, etc... - were not really viable "yardstick" to measure my practice.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:20 / 25.04.07
My practice is fueled by rage and sorrow, trying to change that has only caused me more rage and sorrow, i am going to settle for that and use it to explore those areas.
 
 
brother george
04:39 / 26.04.07
Friendly advise, dont get so gung-ho about it. Do it gently and patiently.
 
 
Katherine
07:25 / 26.04.07
Thinking about this further last night and this morning, another sign things are going the right way is the high number of coincidences you get when things are running well.
 
 
Ticker
17:13 / 02.08.07
Right.

Well for a 100+ days/nights I stuck to a fairly solid schedule of practice and then decided to try not doing a steady practice to compare. It's been just around two weeks now and I've noticed I'm craving those regular fixed moments set aside in my day. The sort of whenever I fell like it just doesn't seem to carry the same benefits as the *must* do ones.

In reading about another practitioner's, um, schedule I found myself experiencing fairly noticable envy. I envied their close nurturing experiences and upon privately reflecting on the matter determined the most noticabe difference was the amount of time they set aside in their life to share with Deity. It was really jealousy, which for me is when you get worked up about something someone else has that, well, you really have too. You're just not looking at it that way compared to envy which is when you don't have it. Anyhow... so yes setting more time aside in my day/night to be with Deity and communion with my Dead and Living. It seems to help for me to have set things to do like to tend a particular altar or make a particular offering. this is the time I do this type of action/rite and this is when I do this other kind and so on until I suddenly have a very full and joyous schedule of my own.

I was reminded yesterday that my real goal is to always be mindful of the Company I'm in because I'm always in it. It's just sometimes my attention is turned away from it and sucked up in something. I'm starting to discover that all meaningful things are included while time wasting things and things I need to stop doing are not. It would be an amazing life if I could always keep my awareness on that.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
01:47 / 03.08.07
came across this post while reading Wynton Marsalis' advice on practicing the trumpet (but it applies to pretty much any practice wherein one hopes to progress). It strikes me as good advice (mostly because my music/magic practice developed some of the following as a matter of course):

1) seek out the best private instructor you can afford (affordability is not necessarily measured in currency)

2) write/work out a regular practice schedule

3) set realistic goals

4) concentrate when practicing

5) relax and practice slowly

6) practice what you can't do (the more difficult parts)

7) always use maximum expression

8) don't be too hard on yourself

9) don't show off

10) think for yourself (don't rely on methods)

11) be optimistic "Music [& magique] washes away the dust of everyday life"

12) look for connections between your music [magic] and other things

I find the second point "work out a regular schedule" exceedingly helpful in following a progression, and noting the progress. Check in for weekly, monthly, quarterly or annual progress. Is there something you can do this year that you couldn't last? I've been making new year's resolutions to learn something within the year (hence the trumpet).

setting realistic goals is another mark of progress. Although, it helps to have a longer-term plan as well. Learn to play a solid, uninterrupted note on a recorder in order to eventually charm serpents, that kind of thing.

points 4, 5 & 6 indicate the basis of progressive learning. If you practice what you can't do until you can do it, then success becomes the measure of one's practice.

also, I think boredom with one's practice may be a key indicator that progress has stalled, and may require shaking up to introduce new inspiration. Alacrity is a key indicatory that progress is in full swing.

YMMV.

>p
 
 
Unconditional Love
05:36 / 03.08.07
I still have a pretty strong tarot and drumming practice, with a nice ancestor and guardian spirit practice moving up on the inside. Rage is less of a focus these days, thou it does appear occasionally, but mostly when justified by unfair interruptions, not related to practice but social interaction.

I judge my practice by what feeling it leaves with me, and currently from simple light, incense and water offerings that is a very good feeling, a calm.
 
 
Sublime Pathos
17:30 / 05.08.07
There was a Key64 article on assessing your practice a little while ago: http://www.key64.net/content/post/649-Sizing-up-your-magical-practice

I try to assess off of intuition. If I sense I'm backing myself into a corner or digging myself a hole, I step back and try to figure out where I strayed then attempt to map out my next move. Personal assessment is a hard thing however since we all have a bias for our work. This line has become so fuzzy for me lately that I've taken an oath against lower work to focus on the work of Knowledge and Conversation. This should in the least give me a better understanding of my motives as I go along this way.

Still there are important questions that should pop up warning flags with anyones practice.

Am I safe?
Will I be better off?
Am I estranging others?
Am I doing this for someone else?
Am I doing something because of coercion?
Do I still like being me?
Has my practice become a handicap?
 
 
Papess
05:38 / 06.08.07
This Key64 article?

All round good article. I take mild umbrage with it, however. For example:

"If your practice involves daily devotions to the Goddess Venus, yet you have few or no close female friends, cannot maintain loving relationships and are given to using sexual slurs or “your mum” insults when you can’t think of a rational argument, then you’re doing something wrong."

Although I certainly agree with the red flag of making "your mum insults", I can't comprehend why the author would think that devotees of Venus shouldn't have trouble with making female friends or maintaining loving relationships? People generally go to Venus when they have trouble maintaining their intimate relationships. Then there is the lesson of so-called "loving relationships" which Venus resides over. She is constantly having difficulty due to Her relations...that is the lesson! Plus, when is Venus ever popular with the other Goddesses? Oh, maybe when they desire to possess someone? Other than that, they pretty much want nothing to do with Her. A devotee of Venus is likely have these same experiences, in their journey of Her mysteries.

Although I agree with "When I’m having problems with a particular Deity, it’s frequently because I’m having problems integrating His or Her mysteries into my own life.", There is not enough said on the actual trials that those who work with the Deities must go through. Devotion and good practice often bring up a lot of negative stuff. Soon, we begin to realise that that negative stuff doesn't just go away. It is us. It is a part of the mysteries that we live. There is a way to deal with that, but to think that it would go away if we simply practice better...well, it seems to be a bit like the logic of "the so-called healer" who says "You didn't believe enough in *insertdeityhere* so, you couldn't be healed."

The author goes on to point out, however: "The flipside of this last is the crashingly painful, traumatic and damaging experience at the hands of beings generally regarded as loving and positive......She may come to believe that the entities she was working with have been concealing their “true nature,” which she’s now discovered to her cost; she may come to believe that the pantheon or family of spirits are secretly demons or aliens, cruel, inimical and dangerous."

Which is kind of what I was saying before about the nature of Venus, or any God/dess, for that matter. There is always the flipside, or negative part of the realationship with a deity (or anyone!). Instead of viewing what you are doing as being insufficient, or that you are an inadequate magician or devotee, I think it should be seen for what it really is - part of a relationship. And recollecting from my Buddhist backgrgound, all relationships are based on what is in your own mind. There is an undeniable interdependancy that not even the God/desses escape.

And this bit: "The thing to do in this case is not to trivialise or minimise the experience itself, but to consider whether the entities involved were who the magician thought They were. If millions of people worship a family of spirits and think of them as loving and positive, see them enriching their lives, look to them for aid and succour at difficult times, then it would seem unlikely that all those people are simply deluded and foolish, the wool pulled over their eyes down the centuries by beings who for some reason are only too pleased to reveal Their real and evil natures to the magician."

Why couldn't they be deluded? Why isn't that a possibility to the author? Lots of people are deluded, all over the planet. Some of them even get together and celebrate their delusions. People hold lots of stuff to be real that isn't, and find joy or suffering in it.

All in all, although there are some very good points made in that article, I find there are way too many instances of "putting-down-the-inferior-magician in order to pump up some far better, "real" magician, for my taste.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:05 / 06.08.07
I can't comprehend why the author would think that devotees of Venus shouldn't have trouble with making female friends or maintaining loving relationships?

I'm a bit surprised by this to be honest. Venus is, you'll surely agree, a Goddess of love and femininity. Are you seriously telling me that Her people didn't petition Her for help in their romantic entanglements? Or that maybe you don't think that Her people should have petitioned her for help?

As for making female friends--well, I don't know about anyone else but when I'm working closely with a God or Goddess, I start to become aware of Hir mysteries as they are expressed in the people around me and am naturally drawn towards people who have a good dollop of that God in their makeup. (I would also recommend that someone doing this kind of work actively seek out people who carry a "flavour" of the God or Goddess with them, or are in some way doing that Being's work in this world). If I was doing a lot of work with a Goddess of love and femininity, I would expect to start awakening to the Goddess in the people around me. Especially if we were talking about a male practitioner, I'd raise a bit of an eyebrow if that didn't happen. In the case of a female-identified practitioner, I'd be concerned the she was identifying herself too strongly with the Goddess at the expense of seeing Her manifest in others. Or that there was some other problem making it hard to connect with the world generally--usually what happens to me.

There is not enough said on the actual trials that those who work with the Deities must go through.

Because it's an article, not an encyclopedia. I could write a whole book on that. I did go on to state (in the next paragraph, in fact) that: It’s also entirely possible that problematic experiences may be a sign that things are going right. Some entities will provoke strife and difficulty in your life as an expression of Their natures. Take Odin, for example... and blah blah blah.

And this bit: "The thing to do in this case is not to trivialise or minimise the experience itself, but to consider whether the entities involved were who the magician thought They were. If millions of people worship a family of spirits and think of them as loving and positive, see them enriching their lives, look to them for aid and succour at difficult times, then it would seem unlikely that all those people are simply deluded and foolish, the wool pulled over their eyes down the centuries by beings who for some reason are only too pleased to reveal Their real and evil natures to the magician."

Why couldn't they be deluded? Why isn't that a possibility to the author? Lots of people are deluded, all over the planet. Some of them even get together and celebrate their delusions. People hold lots of stuff to be real that isn't, and find joy or suffering in it.


Well, shrugs and various noises of helplessness. Of course they could be deluded. We could all be deluded. We could all be brains in jars in Margate, butterflies dreaming of etc. What I am reluctant to acknowledge as a possibility, however, is that (for example) the NT pantheon are reaaaally demons, and that Their many followers are simply being vampirised every time they offer worship. Or to take another example, that the Lwa are actually evil hungry ghosts and astral mobsters bent on the enslavement and abuse of Their votaries; and that whilst Their followers are all too dim to realise this, The Truth(TM) will be revealed almost instantly to a white guy on a sufficient quantity of drugs. I have no compunction about dismissing this sort of nonsense out of hand.

I find there are way too many instances of "putting-down-the-inferior-magician in order to pump up some far better, "real" magician, for my taste.

Well, if someone chooses to read it that way I can't stop them. I have no problems whatsoever with putting down inferior magical practice; if you want to read a selfish motive into that, you can, but my main motivation is to help people improve as magicians and advance in their practice. Period. Failing to challenge misconceptions, errors, and bad practice doesn't do anyone any favours.

I write what I write because I want everyone practicing magic to be the best magicians they can be. I write it for the 15-year-old I used to be, for the person who made all those mistakes I take the piss out of in that article because there was no-one around to tell her stuff like that. The commonest response to that piece has not been "haha, yeah, those shitty magicians!" it's been "haha, yeah, I remember doing that, wish we'd had this when we were starting out, eh?" which suggests to me that I must be doing something right.
 
 
Papess
13:35 / 06.08.07
I'm a bit surprised by this to be honest. Venus is, you'll surely agree, a Goddess of love and femininity.

I don;t exactly agree. Sure She is a Goddess of love...but femininity? She may take a feminine form and reside over certain mysteries that may be specific to women, but all in all I think She is a Goddess of love, beauty and fertility perhaps, sexuality. She also has many forms in which she resides over many other things such as domesticity, impure love and prostitutes - (which, from experience, does not promote oneself well with other women, or men for that matter!, victory, luck, motherhood, etc... To state that one is not practicing properly because they have no female friends, or cannot find a mate or love interest is not taking the entire realm of experience of Venus into account. I would also say that is the case for all of those who reside in the God realms. Veiwing the devotees through a straw and not taking into account a lifetime of devotional work, (possibly, yet to come, in the case of a fifteen year old or new devotee), is not allowing for the entire experience of working with God-beings.

Are you seriously telling me that Her people didn't petition Her for help in their romantic entanglements? Or that maybe you don't think that Her people should have petitioned her for help?

No.

As for making female friends--well, I don't know about anyone else but when I'm working closely with a God or Goddess, I start to become aware of Hir mysteries as they are expressed in the people around me and am naturally drawn towards people who have a good dollop of that God in their makeup.

Yes, indeed. However, that wouldn't be limited to female-identified friends - or even friends! One must see the Goddess working in everyone, men, women, enemies and beggers in the street. Some people seem to be naturally embodying certain God/ddesses. That is lovely. As a devotee however, that is a shallow practice. The effort must come from the devotee to view everyone in this manner, and to respect the God/Goddess aspect of everyone. Also, to be patient and compassionate with oneself while one is developing this skill to view others in this manner, with any authenticity.

If I was doing a lot of work with a Goddess of love and femininity, I would expect to start awakening to the Goddess in the people around me. Especially if we were talking about a male practitioner, I'd raise a bit of an eyebrow if that didn't happen. In the case of a female-identified practitioner, I'd be concerned the she was identifying herself too strongly with the Goddess at the expense of seeing Her manifest in others.

Yes, but you have a funny approach to that. Or perhaps it is in how you state things. Seeing the Goddess in oneself, and seeing the Goddess in others, is the same thing. Priest/esses must identify strongly with their Deity in order to do this. If there is an imbalance, (which I think you are trying to point out), then that will work itself out with continued devotion. It is part of the process to "hook" the ego and then transform it. And true as that is - the bigger the ego, the bigger the hooks.

What I am reluctant to acknowledge as a possibility, however, is that (for example) the NT pantheon are reaaaally demons, and that Their many followers are simply being vampirised every time they offer worship. Or to take another example, that the Lwa are actually evil hungry ghosts and astral mobsters bent on the enslavement and abuse of Their votaries; and that whilst Their followers are all too dim to realise this, The Truth(TM) will be revealed almost instantly to a white European on a sufficient quantity of drugs. I have no compunction about dismissing this sort of nonsense out of hand.

Okay. I didn't realise that was what you were refering to. I must state here though, that just because a being is deemed a "god/dess", doesn't mean they are enlightened, kind, or remotely interested in human affairs. I am certain you know this, Live, but I think it needs repeating.

Well, if someone chooses to read it that way I can't stop them. I have no problems whatsoever with putting down inferior magical practice; if you want to read a selfish motive into that, you can, but my main motivation is to help people improve as magicians and advance in their practice. Period. Failing to challenge misconceptions, errors, and bad practice doesn't do anyone any favours.

I think the problem I have is that your intolerance for "inferior magickal practice" is based your biases. Making the mistakes is a part of the journey. Going through the trials is also, a part of the journey. Not recognising that others may also need to go through things of that nature is to be a little too quick to judge. When, all along, it is really only what YOU do that you should be concerned with. If you'll forgive me - I think it is bad practice to focus on other people's "bad practice". Belittling and invalidating the learning process of others, (as we are all in different places), is not really helpful. If I or yourself had not gone through our own mistakes we may not be as knowledgable or experienced. I think viewing other people's practice in a more wholistic manner, may help you to feel less irrate about the egotism and general silliness that you percieve in other people's practice. Have a little faith that "The Powers that Be" will either drop them on their heads and they will learn, and some patience if these poor practitioners may need to be dropped a thousand times before "getting it".

I write what I write because I want everyone practicing magic to be the best magicians they can be. I write it for the 15-year-old I used to be, for the person who made all those mistakes I take the piss out of in that article because there was no-one around to tell her stuff like that.

Hmm... you are not richer for the experiences you have had? I can tell you, for myself, as a fifteen year old I would have read that and felt like curling up in a little ball and that everything I did was wrong. It would have added to my woes. Making mistakes and immaturity are part of the process. Otherwise, why would we even bother?

If indeed you wanted to address the mistakes of the fifteen-year-old-you, Live, it would hae been interesting to have it written that way.

With statements like:

The effect that Deity work of various kinds can have on your life is certainly very real. It is important therefore to get your attitude on straight before you get into the relationship

It is very discouraging. It would be ideal to have oneself together, but it is also unlikely that anyone would start deity work, or any other magickal practice if one waited till such time. The time to practice is NOW. One's issues will be addressed in time. I don't think it is helpful to encourage a sense of inadequacy by having people second guess themself. Most people have at least a few vulnerabilites and insecurities when they embark upon a magickal path. The judgements are for people's gods and one's own conscience, IMO, not for other practitioners to make. If one wants to speak about their own experience, Iam fine with that. Judging what I should be or not be experiencing, and assessing my practice based on someone else's perception of what my practice should be, is folly. Furthermore, speaking from that POV of inferior/superior practice, only indicates that perhaps that person needs to turn the mirror on themself. In having "good practice", as I understand it - and I am hoping you will agree - what does it matter how others practice to you, anyway?

The commonest response to that piece has not been "haha, yeah, those shitty magicians!" it's been "haha, yeah, I remember doing that, wish we'd had this when we were starting out, eh?" which suggests to me that I must be doing something right.

Of course you are doing something right! You help a lot of people with what you write and who you are. You have also helped me through your writing. Perhaps, if you are not offended by what I am writing, I can help you too.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:53 / 06.08.07
Thanks for your response. I'll get to the rest later, but I really wanted to tackle this first:

I write what I write because I want everyone practicing magic to be the best magicians they can be. I write it for the 15-year-old I used to be, for the person who made all those mistakes I take the piss out of in that article because there was no-one around to tell her stuff like that.

Hmm... you are not richer for the experiences you have had?


No. The mistakes and pitfalls I described in that piece are the things that impoverished me, that robbed me of my power, that kept me locked away in one little corner of my practice for years on end. Some of that stuff, some of the things that happened as a result of not knowing the things I know now, or not trusting what I did know--it was actively injurious. I was left damaged and fucked up in some very serious ways, so much so that I'm still counting the cost and will be for years. You're basically saying to me here "So, you limited and stunted your magical development; so, you cut yourself off from what was frequently the only source of power and strength in your life; so, you consistantly undervalued the best parts of your practice and your own skill-set in favour of valorising a load of superficial crap; so, you got thrown off your proper path for the best part of a decade; so, you were placed at risk of--and sometimes suffered--real, genuine harm as a result of your misconceptions. So what? Haven't you grown as a person? Wasn't it all worth it?" No, no, a thousand times NO.

Sure, some errors are developmental--you HAVE to make certain mistakes because they are part of your progress. But I don't see why anyone should have to repeat my mistakes if I can help it.
 
 
Ticker
14:19 / 06.08.07
huh.

I read :

"If your practice involves daily devotions to the Goddess Venus, yet you have few or no close female friends, cannot maintain loving relationships and are given to using sexual slurs or “your mum” insults when you can’t think of a rational argument, then you’re doing something wrong."

about the pitfall of keeping your relationship to Deity in the abstract and not integrating it into your life. It resonated with some of the critique of sexism in the CM texts about revering the Female Principle but basically treating female-iding people like piss pots. Something I've run across in a lot of male magician writings from various traditions is the Goddess is to be revered but the earthly female can be trod on with no concern. So the admonishment if one reveres the Divine Female to not make the mental mistake of segregating this from your human interactions makes sense to me.

to reverse engineer it a bit, most prejudices are fostered by the lack of mutually insightful interaction. by not having meaningful sincere relationships with the other we maintain our internal illusions about who they are. Our assumptions are not challenged by real interactions with them as real people just the sock puppets we carry in our heads with their names attached. If we are having mutually real sincere interactions we should out grow those sock puppets and begin to see them as people in their own right and learn from them. Having a close relationship with Venus should foster this same process of letting go of prejudices about female people, and if the symptoms of the prejudice remain, then it follows that one may not be having a mutual learning experience. YMMV.
 
  

Page: (1)234

 
  
Add Your Reply