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Banning thread: Epop

 
  

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Epop Bastart the Justified, I
19:33 / 09.04.07
XK, parse this with me. I say:

I do not think I'd be doing the science a disservice to say that nobody really knows and existing models do not yet seem like full explanations.

== Nobody has figured it out yet. We do not, as far as I am aware, have a coherent model which really explains widespread homosexuality in mammal species.

That is not a dead end for research by any standard. That's a huge research opportunity. Further back up the thread I said:

http://barbelith.com/topic/26995/from/105#post692242
It's a really major puzzle, and when somebody solves it, I believe we're going to learn something profound about nature.

======

That is not something that *ANYBODY* can interpret as a closed door, I don't think. What did I say that gave you the impression I was leaving no space for further research?
 
 
*
19:33 / 09.04.07
I think you'll find that there are good citations of numerous methodologically-sound scientific studies in that book, yes. And you're welcome.
 
 
Princess
19:34 / 09.04.07
Ah, apoligies on that Epop. I misread your post. On going back I see I've actually read the opposite of what you where saying.

Ignore all the monkey rage above.

However, would you mind saying what's wrong with Wicca? I'm a first degree initiate in a fairly rocking coven. I can trace my lineage back to source in six steps. My magic, though thoroughly permeated with Christian and Erisian thinking, has grown from a very Wiccan source. My chords, considered the physical embodiment of my magic, where tied by Wiccan people.

Now, bearing that in mind, would you like to say how exactly we are failing you?
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
19:41 / 09.04.07
Good links on math and computer science education. I'm aware of those debates. However, you'll note that I did not discuss either education or bias in attitudes. I talked about *male attraction to nerdy hobbies like miniature painting and ham radio*.

I think the distinction between those two cases is a very real one. Nerdy hobbies - and, in this sense I'm suggesting magic is much like a hobby quite often - seem to be predominantly male.

I don't get why it's such a big deal to suggest that men are attracted to different things than women. If it's true in the sexual domain (*ON AVERAGE*) why is it unreasonable to suggest that it might be true in choice of recreations?

Men and women ON AVERAGE like different kinds of hobbies. Furthermore, many more men than women seem to have these kind of all consuming side lives like hams, or trainspotters, or linux coders.

That's a commonly observed phenomena. You found a few supporting links yourself. I could find more, as could anybody, and we see it around us all the time.

Why the controversy?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:45 / 09.04.07
I am interested in where you get the vision that allowed you to determine, as far as you can see, that women orgasm during rape both frequently enough for it to be an encoded biological function and more frequently than during sex instigated through emotional rather than physical coercion. I have suggested that the vision that has provided you with this data may be divine in origin. Am I warm?
 
 
Princess
19:46 / 09.04.07
Just seeing "everyone sees it" over and over again doesn't mean that we do. We are saying we don't see these things and you are telling us we do. Why do you, as a relative stranger, get to tell me the details of my experience.

Why do you, an individual, consider your perceptions to be stronger than ours as a group?
 
 
Princess
19:48 / 09.04.07
And, shouting "ON AVERAGE" over and over again means nothing if you don't give us the statistics that prove that average. That's what average means. Haloquin has said it. I have said it. Everyone has said that you need to show some evidence other than "I have seen it and you are wrong".

We don't want definitive proof. Just evidence. Just something stronger than your UPG.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:51 / 09.04.07
Well, I don't know about that. If I am right in my understanding, I get why Epop is proposing that we appoint somebody to determine whether your claims about biometrics are true.

The logic, as I understand it, goes "I have done these things with the homeless, with global warming, with biometrics. That I have done these things is proof that I am magically enlightened. My magical enlightenment makes me able to make statements, based on my superior perception of reality (and common sense, although this sense is precisely uncommon), which although unverified or unverifiable are nonetheless true, which can be demonstrated by the fact of my magical enlightenment, which can be proven by my achievements in these spheres".

So, "as far as I can see" or "in my view" take on a specific (to the magically enlightened) meaning, where that view or the distance of that seeing are far greater than a normal human. This is the way I can see biometrics as being relevant to the different kinds of sexual coercion applied to women and the quality of the resulting orgasm.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
19:54 / 09.04.07
Tann Vennegoor of Hauserlink - try, on orgasm during rape, "Trauma and Recovery" by Judith Lewis Herman.

On the female orgasm and conception, I'd suggest:

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19960101-000028.html

Reasonable starting point?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
20:01 / 09.04.07
How about we go with Epop's suggestion, and appoint somebody to verify that he has indeed punched holes in three or four major world issues?

For fairly obvious reasons, I'd suggest that whoever is appointed is only in contact with Epop via PM. As he's unwilling to reveal his IRL identity, it'd be foolish for anybody to reveal their's to him.

I wonder if Epop punching holes in major world issues is a bit like Superboy punching holes through time?
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
20:03 / 09.04.07
Actually, as I said earlier on in the thread, I've contacted one of you to verify my identity.
 
 
Red Concrete
20:06 / 09.04.07
No, Stoatie, no. Come to the Lab, Epop, I'm waiting there for you. Your position is one of ignorance. Particularly on evolutionary theory, and your ideas on homosexuality. You are very obviously speaking of things that you have little basic knowledge of, and no knowledge of current developments. There is probably a lot you can learn just by googling the Lab, in fact (or the rest of the Internet for that matter). Did you read my link on evolutionary psychology and rape? Do you have a comment? Bring it to the Lab.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
20:07 / 09.04.07
Ah, so you chose the person who'll verify your identity. Is it just me, or does this not seem methodologically fool proof?
 
 
Princess
20:10 / 09.04.07
Although, even if it turns out that magic angels do indeed shoot out of your anus every time you sneeze, it doesn't really alter a lot of the other criticisms.

I don't care who you are or what you've done in meat space. Right here, in this place, you are causing a problem. I, and others, are angry about the problems on board. How wonderfully magic you are isn't really a factor.

The Pope, as someone I consider fairly fucking magical due to his phoneline to God etc, would still have been brought up on all this despite the mitre and shiny stick.
 
 
Princess
20:16 / 09.04.07
And of course, if no evidence arrives, you can blame the anonymous poster for keeping it back.

I think it's better that the board nominates someone. Someone who has agreed, right here in thread, to give us their judgement on Epop's "evidence".

If no-one better comes along I'd be willing to do it. I don't think being super-wonderful really gives you an excuse to act like such an idiot here, but I'd be willing to indulge the PM thing just so we can stop listening to the Messiah bullshit.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
20:21 / 09.04.07
Red Concrete - no, I'd missed your link, and I'm reading the paper now.

I think that there are some pretty serious issues.

Specifically, their rape model is incredibly simplistic - a steady state society, with "ballpark" numbers for fitness and cost etc.

Really?

See, I think that from what we know of human behavior, rape is extremely prevalent in times of war and other social chaos, raiding parties etc. which all serve to *vastly* reduce most of the costs that they are calculating here to make their estimate that the costs outweigh the reproductive effects.

The point about old men is a good one, however.

I do not see the content of this paper as being nearly as significant to my case as you do based on their assumptions about a steady state situation. In fact, I think it could be posited that rape's associate with battle and lethal conflicts could be a very important part of its evolutionary history. I think there are also questions about cross-species issues like "normals" of mating behavior in other mammals, which is also a point I raised earlier.

Reasonable? Does this seem like a misreading of the paper to you?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
20:26 / 09.04.07
It's not that these arguments can't be backed up by hard science

Dude, it's been five pages and two-plus threads and I am still waiting for the hard science. You've been asked for the hard science. You are apparently a kick-ass scientist and wildly amazing magician who can pass judgment from on high (and I'm sure Grant Morrison sleeps better at night knowing you think he's doing, you know, okay), punching holes in major world problems and confronting the whiners with the hardboiled hard facts of life. Trying to stay strong in the face of all this condemnation.

And yet, five pages on, after repeated requests, I am still waiting for the hard science.

No amount of whining about fairness changes the fact that rape is the *core* of a good deal of female behavior not only in the human world, but right across the mammal and other animal kingdom.

Hard science. Please. Published psychological studies. Surveys with control groups. Papers in journals. Gimme some.

This is useful because women are *biologically* *attracted* to men with money.

Hard science. Please. Evolutionary examinations. Some study where some guy gives an identical twin $50 to stick in his pocket and both twins go cruising. Papers in journals. Published reports. Bring it on.

...men are *biologically* *attracted* to women with strong physical symmetry and a 1/3 waist/hip ratio.

Well, according to this study, that old saw has been debunked somewhat. American men are attracted to a 0.68 WHR, but Hazda men tend to prefer a WHR of 0.78. See what I just did there? With the link to a published peer-approved study dated after the original 0.70 WHR theory was advanced? Wasn't that cool?

You spend a little time dealing with lightly built, physical small, extremely sexually attractive women and you pretty soon realize that a quarter inch under the surface is the constant awareness that they are *going to get raped if they are alone with the wrong man at the wrong time.* And, again, the rape statistics rather bear that out.

Hard statistics. Please. I'd like to see the report, from a credible organization, that rape statistics report that lightly built, physically small, extremely sexually attractive women have a constant awareness that they are going to get raped if they are alone with the wrong man at the wrong time. Precisely a quarter-inch below the surface, they have this awareness. Right next to that part of the brain that contains your favourite recipes, or whatnot. And it has been proven through hard science to be constant. Government report. PDF on the health ministry site. Any old thing. Please.

And what we casually refer to as "jerks" is pretty much all of the behaviors which strongly corelate with high testosterone: aggression, less use of words, muscular build, impulsiveness and so on. The Jock archetype, in other words.

According to the oft-cited-by-you dictionary.com, what we casually refer to as "jerks" is a contemptibly naive, fatuous, foolish, or inconsequential person. Well, that certainly describes one person in the room. But I'd say ze's a little less "Jock stereotype" and more the "arrogant blowhard who falls back on vague wimblings about hard science without ever showing any rigor whatsoever."

But if you have hard science showing the linguistic goalpost of "jerk" has shifted, please, I'm all ears. Language studies. Surveys of mass-published material. Newspaper articles, even. I await.

And that's one post. Everything you say is full of vague, poorly qualified, "common sense" blathering, and any time somebody calls you on it you start off on another tangent.

I, personally, am still waiting for the hard science. I don't give a flying tuna who you are in The World, whether or not you held Grant Morrison's hand as he entered the mothership, which major world issues you have torn huge gaping holes in using your awesome powers, or what you have suffered in your road to Now.

I really don't care.

What I care about is that you have entered a space that a lot of other people care about and have expended a lot of effort on, and started to spatter the walls with ill-conceived gibberish that you keep claiming is "hard science" without any science whatsoever.

So I am repeating the earlier request. The onus is not on other people to disprove whatever you whack away at on a word processor. The onus is on you, the Hard Scientist, to back your shit up.

Please.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:34 / 09.04.07
You appear not to have followed my line of thinking very capably, Epop. Let's try again:

I am interested in where you get the vision that allowed you to determine, as far as you can see, that women orgasm during rape both frequently enough for it to be an encoded biological function and more frequently than during sex instigated through emotional rather than physical coercion. I have suggested that the vision that has provided you with this data may be divine in origin. Am I warm?

Herman's work does not, I believe, provide statistics on the number of women who have orgasms during rape, in comparison with the numbers of women who have orgasms during emotionally coercive sex. So, presumably, you have gained this information from elsewhere. My thinking at the moment is that this elsewhere is a privileged access to reality provided by your status as a world-class magician, which status you are aiming to prove by evidencing your work in various fields which is also a consequence of and a duty incurred by your unusual magical power. Am I correct in thinking this?
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
20:40 / 09.04.07
Go back to what I said and read more carefully, Tann. You are misreading me.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
20:46 / 09.04.07
Shephard - thanks for the additional data.

So, as I said earlier, I have not gone through and footnoted. I invited people to find areas where I was flat out wrong, and provide a link to a counter case. You did - you have better data on that point than I did.

Female attraction to people perceived as wealthy and powerful? I mean, I could dig out the joking article that correlates the wealth of billionaires to the number of inches their wives are taller than them, but I'm going to pass.

If the extent of my error is that I'd stated 1/3 meaning, in my own head, 30% smaller (i.e. 0.7) and you have some data indicating that it's actually a cultural thing with a relatively small range...

You know? By all means drive a truck through the case I'm making and show me a fundamental error. I invitate you. If you find a flaw like that I'll freely admit that I've learned something. Ok?
 
 
Princess
20:47 / 09.04.07
Haus, obviously did not think he was. Maybe if you showed us *evidence* of this happening? Like a quote maybe? Or a further explanation.

Or you could keep on doing what you are doing which is repeating "I said it it is true you are all misguided and can't understand i don't need proof it is obvious and common sense magic political correctness new age mountains of mordor blah" over and over. It's like a mantra. Or some scary anti-prayer wheel. It just spins round and round spreading unenlightenment around the world.
 
 
Princess
20:47 / 09.04.07
No, you made the assertion it is your job to prove it. That's how science works.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:49 / 09.04.07
So, you don't have a divine perspective that allows you to see how many women having emotionally coercive sex at any given time are having orgasms?

That's sort of a shame... perhaps you could help me out by explaining, in that case, why your various achievements should have any relevance to the quality of the data you are providing on, for example, the number of emotionally coercive sex acts (however that may be defined) resulting in orgasm. I no longer understand what you feel will be achieved regarding the currently spotty evidence base of your claims about sex and sexual violence by a confirmation that, yes, you are he who solved homelessness/global warming/biometric issue x.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
20:54 / 09.04.07
Although, even if it turns out that magic angels do indeed shoot out of your anus every time you sneeze, it doesn't really alter a lot of the other criticisms

With you on this, Princess. However, while I in no way think Epop's vaunted powers make a bit of difference to the fact he's spouted some rather noxious bullshit, I am intrigued to see him attempt to prove that he is, as he has stated, an even mightier mage than even Grant Morrison himself.

A thought occurs: who is mightier than Morrison? Alan Moore, of course. Now check this out...

If we give the letters in Moore's name numeric values, we get:

A (1) L (12) A (1) N (14) M (13) O (15) O (15) R (18) E (5)

Next, we take away the following letters

A (1) N (14) M (13) O (15)

Add these removed letters together and we get 43.

Remember that number, and now add the following letter to those that remain from Moore's name

G (7)

getting the name Al Gore, or

A (1) L (12) G (7) O (15) R (18) E (5)

A total of 58.

5+ 8 = 13. OK, keep that number in your head. Now to 43...

4 - 3 = 1

So we have a 1. Now we need to add that to the first number in 13.

1 + 1 = 2

Ok, so what do we have left? a 2 and a 3. Now only do these add up to 5, the sacred number to Eris, put 'em side by side and what do we have? Only fricking 23! And we all know what that means.

So not only is Epop Alan Moore, he is also, in a more real way, Al Gore. The numbers say so, and you can't argue with them apples.

Really, it was silly of us to ask for scientific proof of Epop's theories, or his world problem punching skillz, when this little doozy was staring us in the face all the fricking time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:57 / 09.04.07
Anticks, that was beautiful but a tad out of place.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
21:03 / 09.04.07
Haus, if you're talking to me (poster above your last post) I'm not Anticks, dude...

Anyway, back on-topic. How is everybody feeling about the proposed Epop ban? Anyone heard from Tom Coates?
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
21:08 / 09.04.07
(Morrissey sigh.)

Yes, Epop is who he says he is. He is a legit guy and a good man. I know him, his magic his impressed me as only a few people in the world's has, his claims are legit, his humanitarian work is real and effective and will hopefully be wider adopted. I've spent months hanging out with him etc etc. and he has bailed me out of some very nasty situations I've been in. Nobody's perfect, but Epop's claims are legit.

And with that, my hat is firmly back out of this nonsensical dirty mess and probably this board for a good long while.

(Morrissey sigh.)
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
21:10 / 09.04.07
And, please, please don't hound BiaS for identity information about me. I kind of value my privacy, and he doesn't need a constant stream of questions.

I'll be available by PM if you have further questions, but right now I'm going back to pay some attention to other areas of my life that I've neglected.
 
 
*
21:18 / 09.04.07
Hounding BiaS for further irrelevant information was not on my short list of things to do today, Epop. You can be the nicest guy in the world, a great humanitarian etc., but if you make unsubstantiated claims that amount to sexism as judged by their impact, and people question you about it, and you respond to their questions with grandstanding and verbal abuse, you will be criticized and banned because this behavior is not welcome here. No matter who you can get to vouch for you as otherwise a great humanitarian and a most puissant mage etc. etc. etc.

Is this clear enough?
 
 
Princess
21:20 / 09.04.07
Thanks Bias.
Epop, why the fuck would we? You aren't Jesus, or Brad Pitt, or Elvis.

You aren't even the cheeky-girls.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
21:39 / 09.04.07
But maybe he is Lembit Opik?

Now that he's departed to await what I can only hope is a complete lack of PMs, have we got anywhere closer to deciding whether we'd like Epop kicked out? Me, I'd be happy for him to stay if he agrees: to apologise for the offense he's caused and not doing it again, to abide by the conventions of verifiable proof in future posts in non-Temple areas of the board, to treat the Temple's users with respect, and to not use it as a place to proclaim his sooper-dooperness.

Actually, scratch that last one. I'd give him one thread in which he could bang on about his own sooper-dooper powers to his heart's content. Might be good to have a 'What not to Wear' magicky thread as a heads-up to others.

Am rather sad that Bias has been brought into all this, and that it's made Barbelith a less fun place for hir. Having said that, if a friend of mine asked me to get their back under these circumstances, I'd tell 'em that a) they need to address what they've written on the board with reference to proof, and b) my vouching for 'em is not the point and is not going to change anything.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:41 / 09.04.07
Sorry, old chap. I got my bee-themed names mixed up. However, banning is a pretty big deal, and I think the levity may be somewhat misplaced. Likewise, Princess Swashbuckling; id entity has given us a very good example of a way to tie frankly baffling contributions back into the central theme of the thread.

So, now that Boy in a Suitcase has confirmed that Epop is who he says he is - a confirmation hindered only by Epop having not actually said who he is - what's next? I went into this thread not thinking there was any need for banning to be seriously discussed, and I confess that I have been surprised at how many people seem to be inclined towards banning. On the other hand, I am also amazed at how badly and ineptly Epop has represented himself. He may be the best guy in the world, but as a member of Barbelith right now, rather less so.

On the other hand, we don't tend to ban people just for ineptitude, unless that ineptitude is such that it interferes profoundly with the function of the board or the ability of its members to enjoy it. So, is it just a matter of ineptitude, coupled with a refusal to consider, understand or act upon requests to moderate behaviour? To return to the original question, is his behaviour accurately and adequately described by:

this man is a misogynist, his posts constitute harrassment of the women on this board and their male allies, and his continued presence makes the board a more hostile place.

Is banning an apppropriate response. And, if banning is not in your opinion appropriate, what is?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:45 / 09.04.07
Ah - crosspost. What Fable of the Bees said, really.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
21:45 / 09.04.07
>a) they need to address what they've written on the board with reference to proof, and b) my vouching for 'em is not the point and is not going to change anything.

Oh for fucksake. Don't start trying to get ME riled up now.

I'm outta here.
 
 
penitentvandal
21:45 / 09.04.07
Oddly, I would feel happier if Epop's guarantor were someone other than Jason. I don't consider Jason as a poster with an intimate, trust-conferring relationship with Barbelith, to be honest. A guy who pops by seeking submissions for/promoting books, yes, but that's it. I don't consider Jason an authority just because he knows GM and Richard Metzger. Had Epop confided in someone like Mordant, Daytripper, wolfangel, justrix, or any other longtime temple poster, or even a non-temple poster of merit like Haus or Our Lady, fair enough. As it stands, though, we're supposed to follow this chain of reasoning, it seems:

1)Jason says Epop's a good guy.
2)Jason knows Richard Metzger and Grant Morrison
3)Richard Metzger and Grant Morrison are objectively better than we are. They are the masters, we are the students. They are Hank and Professor X; we are, at best, the Omega Gang and, at worst, the Special Class.
4) Therefore, we should just get with the program and accept that Epop is a good guy, because our betters have spoken.

Even if you follow all that, though, there's still the crazy, super-huge step 5 to swallow:

5) Because the teachers like Epop, we should stop criticising his arguments.

Y'know, maybe I'm just an ornery, disruptive ADD case, but I can't buy that logic, sir. I'll disagree with who I want to, and I'll expect stronger proof than 'because teacher says so' for a point put before me. Just how I am, sorry.

In all fairness to Jason, though, he seems to have said as little as he could and vamoosed, and I certainly can't fault him on some level for coming to the defense of his friend. It's just I don't automatically accept that Epop must be a good guy because he's Jason's friend, is all.
 
  

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