BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Banning thread: Epop

 
  

Page: (1)23456... 9

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:21 / 08.04.07
I am now in full support of a ban, on the grounds that this man is a misogynist, his posts constitute harrassment of the women on this board and their male allies, and his continued presence makes the board a more hostile place.

See here and here.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
23:44 / 08.04.07
Mordant, banning is the last resort of the scoundrel.

I'd like you to quote precisely which parts of those two posts you consider to be misogyny, rather than a rejection of the current models of gender equivalence.

I think that there is excellent data from evolutionary biology that men and women are, on average, very different in a lot of profound ways. I think we can see that in cognitive psychology (work on different navigational modes), gender specific medicine and so on. I choose not to ignore that evidence when looking at other issues, like what to do about social issues like rape. I think that if rape prevention approaches were based on much, much better models - evolutionary psychological models, in face - we might be able to identify atavistic reflexes which lead to rape and design informed intervention protocols.

Similarly, choosing to laugh at Andrew Dworkin's notions about penetration and gender... I think is the right of any sentient being.

But laughing at an author's work for seeming absurd and, frankly, biased, discriminating and repulsive, is not the same thing as hating an entire gender.

Anyway, I think I'd rather like you to quote bits which seem like misogyny of a ban-worthy nature, rather than simply holding a differing point of view on the social construction of gender.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:55 / 08.04.07
No, it's the last resort of people who prefer to maintain a space relatively free from harrassment. Communities with non-ban policies develop in one of two directions: they either get their fingers burned often enough that they aquire ban policies, or they go under. It's really that simple.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
23:59 / 08.04.07
I look forward to precise quotes from my posts which indicate misogyny rather than simply holding an alternate view of gender based on evolutionary biological models rather than more mainstream viewpoints.

I do not think accepting hardwired gender differences exist is either antisocial or unscientific.

Perhaps you do. But this is a similar debate about freedom of expression and opinion to that found on university campuses all over the world in the past few decades.

There is nothing racist about saying that black people are on average taller than Chinese people. It is true, but tells you nothing whatsoever about the height of any particular individual, regardless of race.

It may be unfashionable to differentiate between the sexes, but do not confuse differentiation with discrimination.
 
 
This Sunday
01:03 / 09.04.07
Can people be banned just for being unecessarily rude and condescending? 'Cause that's about every sentence in Epop's posts.

Epop, you do understand that while (a) you may believe yourself a highly evolved supertype beyond the ken of mortal jobbers, we are, on average (b) less seemingly terrified of dark dank dastardly forces of in-creeping horror, and (c) clearly pretty happy and positive about the way things are going? In the Temple forum and elsewhere.

See, because when I'm really afraid of something or even just nervous about it, and someone else isn't, my reaction is not usually to assume they're ignorant or deluded, but to be in a kind of awe at their coping, or bravery, or ability to not be bothered by X. I'm not implying you should be in awe of anyone on the board (though I've got a list of posters, somewhere, who it couldn't hurt to be in continual awe of, just for practice), but that presuming they're immediately beneath you because they haven't got the fear is silly. And unreasonable. And insulting.

Constant terror of alien overlord intrusions, of rape, of mad vistas of weird evil pentrating the mountainous aether in some sort of totally un-ironic Lovecraft pastiche... has to be less fun than, y'know, whatever nine tenths of the Temple forum are experiencing on that same day. And that's not a sheep/sheepdog dichotomy. You aren't the shepherd in this equation. And the sheep that pretends to be the shepherd... well, human beings have a tendency to laugh at these things. And when that sheep lectures, we may have a tendency to remind you you're not a sheep, either. We're not a flock, we're not cattle, we're not meat engines without hope. And it's rude to assume such, especially when the assumptions are based on a paranoid presumption that excludes men from all the weak parts, makes them big dumb meatwares and women horrified receptacles.

So, again, to everyone, can Barbelith ban based on continual aggressive rudeness?
 
 
Jackie Susann
01:12 / 09.04.07
Epop: the work I'm doing in preventing the use of biometric identification technology to implement totalitarian regimes is extremely highly thought of by people in the field.

Man, I wish I'd known this was a whole field when I was looking for work. What are the entry level positions in anti-totalitarian biometrics?
 
 
Ticker
01:19 / 09.04.07
I'd like you to quote precisely which parts of those two posts you consider to be misogyny, rather than a rejection of the current models of gender equivalence.

Ok then.

Hams don't love ham radio because it's useful, they love it Because It Is Ham Radio. And this is, genuinely, a Guy Thing. Men have a great propensity to take up seemingly meaningless arcane hobbies, obsessively collect Plot Points in those games, and generally geek out.

And most of magic is like that. Yes, there are fewer women than men. It's like that for most nerdly pursuits. And that's not because of men or women, in the individual sense, but because of the average differences in adhesion to the Nerdly across the genders.

You know? Men, in the general case, are stronger. And nerdier. Women, in the general case, spend more of their lifetimes taking care of children and running households. On average, this is how it is, and communities like Barb are large enough for these averages to become statistically significant in how they color the place and its ways.


Let's start with Ham Radio operators, and miniature war games. I'm *quite* well aware that there are a lot of females playing MMOs, for example, but seriously, I think that you are putting your own observations of life aside to discuss your models of the world: these fields are, by and large, almost devoid of women because, by and large, chicks simply do not dig it.

Yes: chicks.


So, yeah. More men than women, and mostly it's a hobby - a Victorian tinkering with the edges of the consensus reality. If that's what you're doing, I think magic is a very nice hobby.

You know why women are a lot harder, on average, to get into bed than men? Start counting calories for reproduction. Take a really hard look at evolutionary biology.

I'm an animal. So are you. No amount of whining about fairness changes the fact that rape is the *core* of a good deal of female behavior not only in the human world, but right across the mammal and other animal kingdom. If you don't think that darwinian factors largely maul, kill and eat cultural considerations, why is it that **REGARDLESS** of "cultural" factors, roughly 10% of children were fathered by somebody other than the person who is called their father?

Let me push this harder: men earn 1/3rd more than women. This is useful because women are *biologically* *attracted* to men with money, in the same way that men are *biologically* *attracted* to women with strong physical symmetry and a 1/3 waist/hip ratio. These things are hardwired and culture and personality are forces which act upon this substrate, not replace it.

It's not that these arguments can't be backed up by hard science: it's just that the conclusions cut through the new age gender equality bullshit like a sledgehammer. You think the situation between the genders is bad, wait 'till you get a load of the evolutionary biology of parent child conflict and sibling rivalry.

You spend a little time dealing with lightly built, physical small, extremely sexually attractive women and you pretty soon realize that a quarter inch under the surface is the constant awareness that they are *going to get raped if they are alone with the wrong man at the wrong time.* And, again, the rape statistics rather bear that out. That situation is not new - it's ancient, in all probability. Exquisitely finely tuned survival reflexes about allying with men who can protect such a person from other men. And so on. You do the math and it boils down to chicks dig jerks, and the hotter the chick, the bigger the jerk.

It's not about racism (I'm probably what you'd call a racist too in as much as I'm willing to say that some *cultures* are better than other, and that clearly different racial groups evolved under different selective pressures), or about sexism - have I said men or women are "better" than one another? Or only that they are *different* and that pretending they are not does not work?

Actually, the literature - science, you know - is pretty clear. Men from all cultures, on average, find women with highly symmetrical faces and bodies more attractive than those with lower symmetry, and the idealized hip-to-waist ration is similarly universal.

And what we casually refer to as "jerks" is pretty much all of the behaviors which strongly corelate with high testosterone: aggression, less use of words, muscular build, impulsiveness and so on. The Jock archetype, in other words.


This is real, and there's plenty of hard scientific evidence for that point of view. Grow up.

So far I haven't seen you post any actual science to back up what reads as sexism, reinforcing and plying stereotypical gender roles and assumptions. Plus you have routinely ignored polite remarks to change your use of language and style of engagement.
 
 
Ticker
01:33 / 09.04.07
I look forward to precise quotes from my posts which indicate misogyny rather than simply holding an alternate view of gender based on evolutionary biological models rather than more mainstream viewpoints.

I do not think accepting hardwired gender differences exist is either antisocial or unscientific.


As you have yet to provide these evolutionary biological models everything you have posted on the subject is purely your opinion. You may accept hardwired gender differences as fact however taking that position without accepting that others find it offensive is antisocial. Clearly this is a major social issue and yet you are treating it flippantly and dismissively. Repeated requests to engage in more productive dialogue have not been responded to. Suggestions on how to engage with the board in a productive manner have been ignored.

I will not tolerate the fear of rape being used as a casual thrown out justification for any opinion.

I'm an animal. So are you. No amount of whining about fairness changes the fact that rape is the *core* of a good deal of female behavior not only in the human world, but right across the mammal and other animal kingdom. If you don't think that darwinian factors largely maul, kill and eat cultural considerations, why is it that **REGARDLESS** of "cultural" factors, roughly 10% of children were fathered by somebody other than the person who is called their father?

Where are the statistics.

Women are afraid of getting raped. That fear is an old fear, and it's likely wired in the way that fear of snakes is wired.

This is a personal opinion.

A useful quote on using statements about fear in this manner:
Rape culture

"McCaughey defines rape culture as a culture in which it is acceptable for women to be victims of sexual violence and for women to be fearful of becoming victims of sexual violence. The solutions proposed from within a rape culture do not call into question the very existence of this culture, and they do nothing to challenge women or men to resist rape culture."

By positioning the fear of rape as an absolute you are particpating in the rape culture.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
01:35 / 09.04.07
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misogyny

Just so we keep on target here: the suggestion is that I be banned for misogyny. Not for being rude or annoying or unpleasant, but for misogyny.

mi·sog·y·ny –noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.

I think you would be hard pressed to twist my words into "hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women."

I might talk about unpleasant things, like the role of rape as a reproductive strategy in mammals including human beings - and to suggest that a good understanding of how rape works in other species might give clues to why it continues to occur in humans. But I think that you will find that while my views might be unpleasant to your tastes, they're views about THE HUMAN SPECIES male and female alike, not simply women, and IT'S NOT HATRED, IT'S GRUDGING RESPECT.

So, there. Sorry if I made you uncomfortable, but if you want to accuse me of being a woman hater, it would be polite of you to back it up with something I said or did.

Thanks.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
01:40 / 09.04.07
Oh, and XK - c'mon. As somebody who's *been raped* - and who comes from a gender in which institutionalized rape is a standard part of the penal system - I think that your idea that I'm in some way "supporting the rape culture" is inane.

Think about that: male rape in prisons in America is enormously widespread and accepted by the institutions. You get thrown in jail, you get raped, you get aids, you die. Happens a lot. Not, fortunately, to me, but rape as a tool of sexual oppression and control is not a uniquely female experience by any manner of means, and I think that pretending that it is devalues the suffering of the tens of thousands (rough estimate) of men who are raped during their incarceration due to institutionalized and inhuman prison policies.

Secondly, suggesting that there is a hardwired fear of rape in women, akin to the fear that all humans (with perhaps a handful of exceptions) is hardly an unreasonable observation. I'm unaware of really good science on this because evolutionary psychology is a young field, but I think it is a reasonable hypothesis given the evidence, and I'd hope to see future research confirm it.
 
 
Ticker
01:41 / 09.04.07
Epop in reading your posts I'm seeing you link an attempted untouchable position above critic with topics such as your survival of abuse, your work with survivors, your work with the poor, and yet I have yet to see you post hard constructive data on why I should value your opinions on gender roles.

I have no interest in unpacking your personal experiences in these areas. However I do find it questionable to use them to suspend or discourage requests for better data about the topics you are presenting yourself as an expert on.

You have made repeated sexist remarks about the gender roles and capabilities of both sexes, heteronormative assumptions about sexual behavior and in my personal opinion, brash over use of a powerful subject to justify your opinions: rape.

Are you unwilling or unable to perceive why your posts are offensive?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:44 / 09.04.07
Actually, whether or not you are a misogynist is entirely a personal matter. In banning terms, we are looking at behaviours in relation to the board. So, the relevant part is:

his posts constitute harrassment of the women on this board and their male allies, and his continued presence makes the board a more hostile place.

So, actually, being rude, annoying and unpleasant, insofar as those behaviours support MC's contention, is quite relevant. Just FYI.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
01:44 / 09.04.07
Let me try that last paragraph again, this time with the important sentence not missing an entire clause...

Secondly, suggesting that there is a hardwired fear of rape in women, akin to the fear that all humans (with perhaps a handful of exceptions) have of snakes and spiders and scorpions, for example, is hardly an unreasonable observation.

I'm unaware of really good science on this because evolutionary psychology is a young field, but I think it is a reasonable hypothesis given the evidence, and I'd hope to see future research confirm it.

..........

And, seriously, thinking that rape is a female issue is incredibly sexist. It may be more common for women than for men, but sexual abuse hits both genders very, very hard and is incredibly common. And prison rape is vastly more common for men than for women, based on the reports I have seen, and is massively more institutionalized than any other common form of rape in this culture.

I think that if women were being raped in prisons in similar numbers and under similar conditions to the way men are being raped, it would be a Burn The Whitehouse Down public outcry, rather than being a small, marginalized problem with almost no public face or public outcry.

So, if you want to take it to the mat, how's about you stop appropriating rape as a feminine problem?
 
 
Ticker
01:46 / 09.04.07
Epop I think you're being sexist towards both males and females and the entire range of gender possibilities in there. I'm hoping a ban isn't required. What I'd like is for you to understand why if you want to engage with the board you need to think about your language choices. I find a lot of what you want to explore interesting but you are not listening to people tell you that your approach is hurtful and shutting them out. You need to meet on common ground rather than just dismissing their issues.

Secondly, suggesting that there is a hardwired fear of rape in women, akin to the fear that all humans (with perhaps a handful of exceptions) is hardly an unreasonable observation. I'm unaware of really good science on this because evolutionary psychology is a young field, but I think it is a reasonable hypothesis given the evidence, and I'd hope to see future research confirm it.

I'm saying it is an unreasonable suggestion because it assumes rape is a normal acceptable state. I'm saying this stance without allowing for other viewpoints and being dismissive of other view points is offensive.
 
 
Papess
01:47 / 09.04.07
Dammit Epop, just about everything you said was either misogynistic or sexist. Take your pick.
 
 
Ticker
01:55 / 09.04.07

And, seriously, thinking that rape is a female issue is incredibly sexist. It may be more common for women than for men, but sexual abuse hits both genders very, very hard and is incredibly common. And prison rape is vastly more common for men than for women, based on the reports I have seen, and is massively more institutionalized than any other common form of rape in this culture.

I think that if women were being raped in prisons in similar numbers and under similar conditions to the way men are being raped, it would be a Burn The Whitehouse Down public outcry, rather than being a small, marginalized problem with almost no public face or public outcry.

So, if you want to take it to the mat, how's about you stop appropriating rape as a feminine problem?


I believe from the accounts I have read there are similar rape numbers in female prisons. I believe women can be abusers and often are.

The difference as far as I can tell between your positon and mine isn't that *people* are doing fucked up things but that you are using language that specificly shuts out discussion around factors. You keep treating things as absolutes without allowing for dialogue.

shall we talk about use of language?

This statement:

It may be more common for women than for men, but sexual abuse hits both genders very, very hard and is incredibly common.

reads as very accesible to me. I'm able to engage with it and discuss it.

this statement:

All of these are male-dominated pursuits because they are, outside of a relatively small community and occasional pragmatic areas of application, complete wastes of time.

This statement is not accessible to me and does not invite mutual discussion.

What I'm saying is you have opinions, I have opinions, but I've learned how to post mine in ways to allow people to discuss them rather than slap them on the table as irrefutable pieces of reality that if they offend people to fucking bad.

People are telling you your view points are offensive and you are not making any attempt to engage with them on how to discuss the topics (like gender roles and assumptions)openly. Your attitude is reading like you could give a shit if people don't want to accept your opinion which you believe is fact.
 
 
Ticker
02:01 / 09.04.07
To be very very clear the problem I have with your posts isn't your that you believe gender roles are influenced by biology. My problem is you aren't listening to other people on the board telling you that the manner in which you are stating these things is problematic and offensive.

We can discuss gender roles productively if we agree to not make assumptions and to use third party scientific articles, studies and subjective experience.

Using language like 'chicks' is not furthering your cause or representing you as anything but a sexist. Also positioning males as wasting time on useless hobbies because of their 'maleness' is sexist.
 
 
Ticker
02:07 / 09.04.07
I'll check back in the morning. I hope Epop you'll consider what I'm saying so we can start a thread on the perception of gender and the role biology plays in the cultural mix.

What I'm asking of you is to acknowledge that this is a difficult topic and your posts have not allowed for other people's viewpoints. If you can engage with us, respect what we are saying, I believe we can explore this in a meaningful way. However if you are unable or unwilling to see how your use of language and assumption is offensive and non productive I suspect no one will be willing to discuss anything with you.

I'm open to your critique around my assumptions, are you open to mine?
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
02:08 / 09.04.07
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexism

sex·ism –noun
1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; esp., such discrimination directed against women.


I would contest that nothing I have said is sexist by the dictionary definition.

You *could* suggest that my "attitudes and behavior were based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles" but I think you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that my attitude is based on "traditional roles" rather than evolutionary biology. I think that *some* - a *few* - of the "traditional roles" are strongly hardwired in the majority of the population and therefore can be safely used as generalizations most of the time. But this is entirely different to a robotic adherence to, say, Traditional Family Values.

I mean, c'mon. If you are female, and you take birth control pills, they trick your body into thinking that it is pregnant. Pregnant women, it turns out, have a distinct preference for spending time with people they are very genetically similar to. As a result, the mate selection choices made by women on the pill are *very probably* distorted by the pill, and when they stop taking the pill to get pregnant, suddenly their partner smells all wrong.

This is *really* easy to explain using evolutionary psychological models, is *entirely* about models of sexuality and gender which wire right into the mammalian substrate of humanity, and could explain things like hte 50% divorce rate in America.

Does thinking that this stuff is important - that the biological foundations of our human condition is critically misunderstood for the most part - make me sexist?

Hm.

Well, depends, doesn't it. If you think that biological reasoning about human affairs is in some way inherently inappropriate, then let's just forget that being on the pill makes women choose different partners from those they would choose if they weren't on it.

What if, when we dig around a bit more carefully into rape at an evolutionary biological level, we discover that some percentage of rapes are predictable based on hormonal testing of male rapists and, in fact, there's a "rape hormone." Unreasonable? Well, again, look at the work being done on human female sexuality around ovulation - different choice of partners, greater odds of infidelity, and so on. Might just be that there are biological foundations - **genetic indicators** of men who are more likely to rape.

Might even be treatable.

You might laugh now, but I don't think that this is an absurdist position. I think it's much more likely that we'll find that being a rapist is actually very strongly correlated with having survived childhood sexual abuse, but until the studies are done, we just don't know.

Oh, and XK... **HETRONORMATIVE** - 81 point scrabble word.

Again, I think you'll find that I reference biological foundations for homosexuality quite explicitly, suggesting that it must be pretty important biologically because it is found so widely in the animal kingdom and yet leads, in the typical mammalian case, to no offspring. (unlike in the human case.)

In reasoning about animal behaviors - and humans are also animals to some extent - it's not unreasonable to focus on what is typical at least some of the time. Almost all of your ancestors were straight, going right back into the jungle trees.

Is there something wrong with making that observation? Does it make me a baiter of gay people?

Or is the real taboo here not about gender or sexuality, but about looking at human beings as if they were animals, and applying what we know about animals to human behavior?

I think that where I'm offending people isn't about gender so much as about species pride. Could be wrong about that, but think it over while you're trying to figure out exactly what my, er, problem, is.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:15 / 09.04.07
So, just to clarify - you think that men and women are both raped in large numbers, but that women are evolutionarily "rape-aware" and men are not? Isn't that a bit of a poke in the eye to this evolutionary psychology you appear to be basing a lot of your statements on? Are men in this model just slower on the uptake?
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:21 / 09.04.07
Your problem, as far as this thread goes, was stated by TtS in the first post, and helpfully cited by Haus about half way down. For the third time, then:

his posts constitute harrassment of the women on this board and their male allies, and his continued presence makes the board a more hostile place.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
02:43 / 09.04.07
Ok, let's get into the bolts of this.

Evolution - passing on genes and all that. Ok?

So, *if* you're a woman - in this Dawkensian sense - odds-are that it's absolutely in your interests to choose who you reproduce with. If you get raped and wind up having the child of somebody who's genetic material fits poorly with yours or who is just genetically inferior (yes, that term *does* mean something outside of eugenics) one of your shots at passing on your genes is blown, with massive ramifications.

If you're a man, the biological foundation level is affected by rape in the same way it's affected by having the crap beaten out of you: unpleasant, but unless they cut your balls of, less likely to screw up your ability to reproduce in an optimal fashion than if you are a woman who gets raped and then pregnant.

Women have a lot more to lose by being raped in an environment where there is no abortion than men do.

Now, on the prison rape subject: this is almost entirely a monster bred by the government and the state. Male rape after childhood is relatively rare but in close confinement in a consequence-free environment can apparently become endemic. So this is an instance where we're just - as a culture - fucking up royally.

Second point: rape genes. Say you're Joe the Rape Gene, and men carrying you are good at raping women and getting them pregnant, and their sons also carry this gene Joe the Rape Gene. Joe the Rape Gene could, potentially, spread all over the population (no, I'm not arguing for castrating rapists.) :-)

So, in some species, what amounts to rape is more or less how reproduction is done. Dogs, for example, seem to have a very violent sexual culture, if you can call it that. That's Joe the Rape Gene at work.

Now, what we don't know is if Joe the Rape Gene is really there, but **men can successfully pass on their genetic material through rape**. And that means that rape is **directly** wired into evolutionary biology because, bottom line, it can be a reproductive strategy. And there are a lot of biological anomalies around rape like, for example, some women have orgasms while being raped.

Now, at a human level, that just makes no damned sense and frequently tears the women it happens to into tiny little pieces. So why is it happening? By and large, women do not come if they're being coerced into sex at an emotional level, as far as I can tell, so what's going on?

There's a potential model. But, because of the level of squeamishness here, I'm going to be very careful about how I say this. Ok?

Orgasm in females appears to increase the odds of conception by moving sperm towards the cervix - those internal contractions *do stuff.* Furthermore, there's some evidence that women have some control over whether or not they will conceive - sperm is either retained in the vagina, or expelled, depending on factors which (last time I checked) hadn't been identified.

So, think this through: you have a reflex (we'll call it that for now) which increases the odds of pregnancy but which can be triggered by rape.

Hm. Well, it could be an anomaly, one of the bugs in the system, like the way that your optic nerve gives you a huge blind spot, or one of the nerves in Giraffes runs all the way up the neck, loops over a bone, and then goes all the way down again to end a couple of feet from where it started.

Could be.

Or it could be that, at a deep biological level, some female genes identify a successful rapist as a male who's genes are likely to continue to survive in the wild, and therefore predispose her towards orgasm and conception.

Now this is UGLY. You want to talk about things you can't say in public to people and have them still talk to you, feel free to use this as an example.

But as a model it does explain one very, very weird and troubling aspect of rape and it is at least coherent with what we understand of the biological situation. Might be right, might be wrong, but it's certainly an approach to trying to understand one of the worst things in the world.

You can't understand rape without looking at animal models, any more than you can understand homosexuality or the birth of twins without looking at animal models. It matters that there are all kinds of gay animals because it means that whatever is going on is not exclusive to human developmental models or psychology and that's an excellent hedge against the Moral Minority.

Bottom line: if you are walking through a field of cattle, it is important to know if they are cows or bulls because the cows are safe, and the bulls might well kill you.

Strongly gendered species exhibit very strong distinctions between the sexes. Those differences can matter a lot, but species-level averages still tell us very little about particular people.

I think that human beings are nearly as strongly gendered as cattle and much more strongly gendered than, say, cats. Not quite as strongly gendered as deer or gorillas. I don't think that makes me a sexist.

I'm not at all a fan of models of gender which don't acknowledge the biological substrates, and I think that nearly all of the academic theory of gender produced by non-biologists is useless. Personal opinion, but I hope you can understand my perspective a lot better now. I just don't respect these ideas as explanatory models of the world, even if they do make people feel better.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
02:50 / 09.04.07
Jackie Susann - having little respect for academic models of gender outside of biology is a different thing from disrespecting and attacking individuals. From my perspective, I might have been harsh on people's ideas, but I'm hardly shooting down individuals **FOR BEING WOMEN**.

I think that most of the critical theory around gender is really dangerously wrong, and I think the same about most of the critical work on race. The model of egalitarianism proposed is tantamount to thought reform in some cases. No thanks.
 
 
*
02:50 / 09.04.07
Ban.

Fuckwit.
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:50 / 09.04.07
Surely use of the phrase J** the R*** G*** is adequate grounds for banning? This guy is indifferent to everything anyone has said or could say about his use of language, and that's not going to change.
 
 
This Sunday
02:56 / 09.04.07
Seriously, Epop, why aren't men genetically rape-paranoid as women are? If that's your end-all statement, then it's got to follow through. I assumed were ignoring men being raped, but it seems, instead, you're ignoring sexual assault by women. And yes some women do sexually assault other women. Some women sexually assault men.

We are all capable of great things and of causing great damage. But you can't blame the person being damaged, being injured or assaulted, for being injured or assaulted. There is no 'they brought it on themselves.'

You can blame the person doing the assaulting. The only way to help the end to rape amongst humans would be, um, don't rape people. And try not to let anybody else. But failure of that trying is not grounds for an assumption that it's the nature of the world.

And it's rude and condescending to us all to assume such.

Civility is just pretending other people are aware, whether you think they are or not. You pretend. To be polite and avoid making an ass of yourself. Like many people on this board are doing.

But, yes, the assumption that, although any gender/sex can be raped, only women have a genetic paranoia about it... is absurd, and highly misogynist.

And really, if your outlook is making you unhappy, and everybody else's outlook is making them happy, the only routes reasonable to take would seem to be (a) considering everyone else's outlook(s) and (b) doing something to move past the unhappy outlook. There is no virtue in feeling trapped, in being afraid or paranoid and defensive all the time.

And there is no such thing, to my knowledge, of any absolute ban from Barbelith, because you can still read all the posts, you can come back under another handle, post through a friend, or whatever. But, really, the antagonistic, holier-than-all I KNOW THINGS!!! Fear my 23 11 l337 superknowledge thing isn't going to get any of us anywhere. Because it's eventually as ignorable as spam for discounted viagra from dubious companies without spellcheck.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:56 / 09.04.07
You see, it's one of the tenets of Barbelith that we try to respond to what people say rather than who people are. But, really. Is it possible to have had a negative amount of contact with women? I came into this uncertain about the wisdom of starting a banning thread so early, but you really are painting yourself icky at this point, Epop.

If I had been bet a tenner that somebody would have been dumb enough to spend that much time blathering on about why women have orgasms when they are being raped - obviously without substantiation, since evolutionary psychology is a young science fishcakes - in a thread inspired by their perceived insensitivity to the feelings of women, I would now be ten pounds poorer. It's great that even at my advanced age people can still surprise me, isn't it?
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
03:05 / 09.04.07
See, the description of why I should be banned keeps on shifting.

First it's misogyny. Well, I ask for quotes from my writing that demonstrate that. No specifics are pointed out, but the next accusation is sexism.

Well, I explain my position: humans are a strongly gendered species, and there are strong sexual differences, and I choose not to ignore them.

Well, then it's not sexism, it's attacking women and their allies. And I suggest that I'm anti critical-theory type models of gender, and again what I'm supposed to be bannable for shifts again.

See what I'm saying?

It's a bit of a witch hunt.

I do think it takes a damn strong stomach to examine the biological foundations of rape. But I do this as somebody who may well have more first hand experience of the act than anybody who's currently harassing me for insensitive treatment of the subject.

It's not the same if it's happened to you. I've *seen* this shit, first hand, as a child, repeatedly. You don't think I've got a pretty good reason to be fascinated by why rape happens?

Seriously. I'm not some academic collector of facts: I'm dealing directly with things which have caused me, and countless other people, a great deal of suffering. I think that currently popular models of gender are, in fact, damaging and dangerous and need to be updated with new material from the hard sciences as quickly as possible.

I'm getting a little tired of being lectured about my insensitivity and inappropriateness around rape. I've been there, I've done that, I choose to study and try and explain what it is and how it works from what I consider to be a promising direction.

Sorry if I startled you.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled witch hunt. Ok?
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
03:14 / 09.04.07
And, let me just hammer this point home.

IF I WAS A FEMALE RAPE VICTIM DISCUSSING THESE ISSUES, YOU'D BE SUPPORTIVE AND POLITE.

Ok?

You have a damn good think about how much of your treatment of this situation is, in fact, grossly sexist. If I was a female victim of rape, you would not be throwing this kind of attitude at me for the work I've done in investigating the roots of the subject, or, in all probability, the tone I've taken in my more irritable moments.

Seriously: you want to give me a hard time about insensitivity about rape - YOU LOOK IN THE GODDAMN MIRROR.

Now, I'm beginning to really feel furious, so I'm not going to post for a while. Anybody who wants to apologize for their sexist treatment of rape victims, go right ahead. It's an open thread.

Yeah. You would not treat a woman this way. Period.
 
 
Make me Uncomfortable
03:18 / 09.04.07
Epop's posts are the first time anything on this board has made my head hurt with anger and frustration. As a recent member and also frequenter of the Temple forum, I have come to expect a pretty high level of tolerance, support, and uplift-y sort of message from that forum (and the board in general), and Epop's posts are, well, directly counter to that.

To be sure, anger and frustration enough to give me a headache is quite a response to plain old language, and there is clearly power behind his words enough to affect me in a psychosemantic (yes, I do mean that and not psychosomatic) way, which is a neat trick. But that doesn't mean I like it and I want it on the board.

As I see it, the misogyny / rape question is mostly about the percieved tone of Epop's posts, which go into pretty explicit detail about an extremely subject, but do so in a way that the casual reader (IE, me) would find abrasive, heavy-handed, and cruel.

This is possibly due to a general clash of polarized schools of thought: Epop's gritty scientific reality vs. the vast majority of the board's more touchy-feely opinion, but it might also be that Epop is spouting a neutral view in an offensive, angry way, unlike the rest of the board, which spouts an equally neutral view in a much more gentle way.

That is to say, it may be the content, it may be the delivery, but either way I don't think it's adding very much, and it's certainly taking away some amount of comfort/fun/humanity in the discussion.
 
 
electric monk
03:26 / 09.04.07
Let me push this harder: men earn 1/3rd more than women. This is useful because women are *biologically* *attracted* to men with money, in the same way that men are *biologically* *attracted* to women with strong physical symmetry and a 1/3 waist/hip ratio.

I read this as saying that it is okay to pay women one-third less than men because women are biologically attracted to wealth. Okay, not "okay". "Useful" is your word. "Useful" seems a pretty positive read of the disparity in pay between the genders, and a strikingly odd one at that. Seems to promote sexist practices as a good and desireable thing. Sexism. Misogyny. Right there.

Seriously. I'm not some academic collector of facts: I'm dealing directly with things which have caused me, and countless other people, a great deal of suffering.

And yet I can't sense a shred of compassion anywhere in your posts. Hmm.
 
 
Papess
04:14 / 09.04.07
If I was a female victim of rape, you would not be throwing this kind of attitude at me for the work I've done in investigating the roots of the subject, or, in all probability, the tone I've taken in my more irritable moments.

If you were a female victim of rape and you still spouted the same nonsense, you better believe you would get the same treatment.

To be honest, there is nothing about the language you use that suggests you should be near anyone who has been sexually assaulted. The words you choose suggest that you have no idea what "safe language" is, and why it has been adopted. Thus, I have to conclude that your involvement with such areas is limited to your own mind, since you can't even get the jargon down which is essential to the recovery. I actually get the distinct feeling I am dealing with someone of predator mentality because of your disregard for proper language.

Life would be so much better if you didn't think you had to be right all the time. Because you are not.
 
 
Mark Parsons
05:38 / 09.04.07
This reminds me of Dave Sim and his ideas about women and feminism. Is it OK to ban somebody who expresses nutty or possibly offensive ideas? Should Sims' books be banned or critically ignored and discounted due to his beliefs? (No, I don't think anybody here would ever advocate that, it's rhetorical).

Epop is stating a lots of very controversial POVs to be sure, but he seems respond to angry responses with ideas rather than anger/flames/sarcasm, etc. I think that should count for something RE banning.

Epop, I think you absolutely have to cough up some sources for your assertations, particulary on the subject of rape & orgasmic response. For all we know, you're drawing inspiration from the scientific equivalent of a neoconservative.

And you have to accept that, even if your ideas are extrapolated from legitimate scientific sources, they will ALWAYS inflame lefties, progressives, feminists, 'Lithers, pretty-much-any-damn-body etc. You've picked a hot button area of discourse and should not expect us to nod and calmly accept unsourced declarations as substantive scientific theory.
 
 
*
06:54 / 09.04.07
furioso, the following is a rant triggered in part by this line from your post above, but don't necessarily take it as directed at you. It is a rant about banning on Barbelith in general, which unfortunately probably repeats much of what has already been said elsewhere, but can stand to be repeated.

Should Sims' books be banned or critically ignored and discounted due to his beliefs?

In the case that Dave Sims' books spout the kind of nonsense that I've heard here, then no, they shouldn't be banned, but they should be criticized heavily and not treated as authoritative, and I'd expect that bookstores dedicated to a certain kind of scholarly rigor would refuse to carry them.

I would not suggest that Epop should not be allowed to publish his thoughts—just that I do not want us to sell his books here in our theoretically-cooperative anti-oppression-oriented bookstore. As booksellers, we know the kind of audience who comes here and what titles they're looking for. We know what books they will find offensive, what books will make them less likely to come back if they see them on our shelves or in our shop window as they pass by. If you go into a Jewish bookstore, you will not find books claiming the Holocaust is a lie propagated by the evil Jewish banking conspiracy.

I don't think Barbelith has ever been free of ideology—if anyone ever claimed that, it must have been in the innocent days when you could say things like "Break out of your limiting reality tunnels!" and have some people cheer and most of the rest just smile in amused tolerance. For whatever reason, what we have here is primarily a group of people who believe in the equality of people of different sexes and genders, the equality of people of various racial identities and backgrounds, and the need for empirical evidence to back up claims of empirical fact. Crazy as it may sound, those are the kind of books our audience reads, so those are the kind of books we're selling*. Don't come in here and try to sell The Bell Curve, The Naked Ape, or the Truth About the Protocols of the Elders of Zion: We're not stocking it. Open a bookstore of your own—I think there's a domain-name for lease next door.

Herein lies the fundamental difference between banning someone's books (i.e. making their publication, sale, and/or possession illegal by an act of government) and telling someone to go away and stop shouting rude things on your lawn. Barbelith is not a government, it is the Internet home of the people who contribute. We are not, nor do we need to be, dedicated to "freedom of speech" of the sort that holds that freedom of speech means that I am allowed to say anything I want and other people's responses to me amount to censorship. There are many other places on the Internet for that. Freedom of speech means, in part, freedom to accept responsibility for the consequences of your speech. If your speech causes harm to a number of people, it's likely that one of the consequences will be that you are told to go speak elsewhere, where you will not be harming the people who speak here. The one kind of banning and the other kind of banning share a name, but they're different situations.



*(Or giving away, as it happens. Aren't we nice.)
 
 
penitentvandal
07:39 / 09.04.07
Oh, and XK... **HETRONORMATIVE** - 81 point scrabble word.

Only if you spell it right. Aitch-ee-tee-EE-arr-oh-enn-oh-arr-emm-ay-tee-ai-vee-ee. You do know your handy dictionary can tell you how the words are spelled as well as what they mean, right?

Again, I think you'll find that I reference biological foundations for homosexuality quite explicitly, suggesting that it must be pretty important biologically because it is found so widely in the animal kingdom and yet leads, in the typical mammalian case, to no offspring. (unlike in the human case.)

Sorry, sir, but as a man of science I don't think you've referenced anything properly at all. As someone who has apparently did excellent work 'as an engineer, or maybe a scientist', one would imagine you would know how to properly reference something, yes? Names. Journals. Titles of papers. Perhaps a summary of the research done in same, for those of us unwilling to slog and/or lacking an ATHENS account. So far, only one person here has done that and, ah, whaddaya know, it wasn't you.

Oh, but hang on. You're 'not an academic collector of facts', are you? Ah.

You say that the grounds on which you are being banned keep shifting. The fact is that they do not. As Mordant, Haus and others have pointed out rah-rah-rah-repeatedly, you are being banned because your tone and presence constitute harassment of posters, and your way of responding to comments is making Barbelith a less-than-civil place at t'mo. Period. As idperfections has pointed out, this is not analogous to banning in the fourth amendment sense, but more like refusing to speak to a dinner party guest who keeps going on about rape in a manner which upsets the guests and threatens to mar the clean linen tableware with involuntary mucus. It is the height of boorishness in such situations, sir, to adopt the Littlejohn position that one's hosts are moving with haste to eject one from the door because of political correctness gone mad. Far better, it seems to me, to accept the situation, apologise gracefully, and enter into a meaningful dialogue. An argument is not just contradiction, remember, even if we are arguing in our spare time here.
 
  

Page: (1)23456... 9

 
  
Add Your Reply