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Ultraculture Journal One

 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:07 / 08.04.07
The fact that Epop spends a lot of time thinking about rape and not much time talking to women is not relevant to this thread. "Sexism in Magic" is probably a good a place to go as any with this.
 
 
Princess
00:49 / 08.04.07
Well, it's were I've taken my mouth-flapping. So if, you Epop, could follow us over to here and I will paste your stuff over for you.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
01:06 / 08.04.07
Anyway, back to the Ultraculture thing.

Gen Hex was about initiation, about the Mystery.

UC1 has a goodly body of material by people who are living Masters of the Art. Louv's piece... well, who here wouldn't be dead if they'd tried 10% of that work in the same period of time?

GPO's work speaks for itself.

And Shaktinath - well, if you've ever worked with Mahendranath's material, you can get some notion of what his partner in crime of all those years must be made of.

This is a foreign current. Not from round here. For madmen only.
 
 
Ticker
14:33 / 08.04.07
Actually a lot of us are extremely tired of people of various genders and backgrounds placing the seat of our magical potential in our uteruses. While yes birthing and raising are all important honorable actions that deserve more appreciation in our culture lauding those approaches as *the Great Work* is sure to push buttons.

Far, far off topic, but for women who have chosen other paths than the birth/raise one, knocking the women who have chosen it is really seperatist.


'Lula, I'm actually quite shocked you read the above comment of mine as knocking women who have chosen it. Especially as the above quote of mine states:

While yes birthing and raising are all important honorable actions that deserve more appreciation in our culture

How does this read as disrespect to you? Please feel free to relocate this aspect of the discussion where you see fit and I'll come over there to talk to you about it. I'd like to keep it public so others can learn from our exploration of it but if you'd like feel free to PM me as well.
 
 
Ticker
14:51 / 08.04.07
Epop Bastart the Justified, I: It appears you have a lot of opinions on why the sexes do a lot of things. Perhaps you are willing to discuss them in another thread so we don't have to derail this one.

However what you may not be aware of is stating these stances as absolutes limits many peoples' perception of you and your potential interaction with the board. You may be aware that for quite a large number of folks the topics of rape, sexism, gender roles are not an agreed upon simple matters. Reductive use of rape examples in discussion around gender roles comes off as flippant and prepackaged. I would like to invite you to talk about these things at a slower more thoughtful pace elsewhere on the board. I am interested in what you have to say and exporing these concepts. Yet I must point out to you that framing these opinions as absolutes without allowing for other people's perceptions and experiences will be often interpretted as dismissive and hostile.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:32 / 08.04.07
How does this make me or Ultraculture sexist? It doesn't.

BitS I don't think you understood, I'm not saying that you or Ultraculture are sexist, I'm saying that society at large is sexist and unfortunately that means that women have to work harder for longer periods of time in order to get into the same position as men. I think that the problem isn't with or around you, I think it's earlier in the chain, I think that you have less female writers sending you work because it's been more difficult for them to integrate into groups doing interesting work over the last twenty years but perhaps I'm wrong?
 
 
Ticker
19:11 / 08.04.07
I think that the problem isn't with or around you, I think it's earlier in the chain,

I think Nina is highlighting something important here. It's hard for a lot of us to take into consideration that groups of people are operating from the standpoint that they are not wanted or included. I understand BiaS' discomfort with the idea of having to solict people when he already has so much on his plate and *has* already put out a general call. It must appear ludicrous to suggest modifing that call to extend a special invitation to any one group. Yet there is an actual need to do so as absurd as that may sound. It's not just to invite women but any group that may not realize you are inviting them to participate. Specifically women have been excluded so often from these venues that telling them they are invited directly does in fact let them know it is a safe space to participate in.

I know many people think if someone has something interesting or useful to say they'll just say it, but this approach overlooks how often they've been told to shut the fuck up because no one cares about their experience or perspective. Even if you didn't tell them that yourself chances are someone else already has. It's an awful and painful experience few wish to repeat.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
20:08 / 08.04.07
OK. I've pointed to all the tools you need to publish and, again, if any women on this board have completed articles or books they think would work being published through Ultraculture, they are welcome to send them. ultraculturegate@gmail.com
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
20:18 / 08.04.07
Same offer I've extended to EVERYBODY. REPEATEDLY.

If you're a serious writer and a serious magician, nobody needs to come to your door asking to please please pretty please write an article so we can all hold hands and be the happy diverse rainbow people.

You either have something you feel called to put in front of people, or you feel called to keep yourself to your self and Keep Silent. Most days I think the latter is the more admirable position. But either way, you probably don't have a choice.

And really? If you're a magician—really a magician—you should be well over expecting people to kowtow to your feelings or correct imbalances in society for you. You do it yourself. Mordant, after all, was the first person on the plate with an article for the journal. I'd barely put out the call, and there was the finished article in my inbox, in basically the exact format it was published in.

That is Professionalism. And at the end of the day, that's what stands.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:28 / 08.04.07
Well steady on, old chap. I frequently find myself second-guessing the impulse to send something (fiction or magical writing or whatever): "Oh, they won't want that, it's not sophisticated/modern/cutting edge enough." I stick to publications where I already know my sort of writing will be acceptable. Having a bit of fiction rejected smarts; having magical or devotional writing rejected canes.

In fact, I submitted my article to you largely because I was encouraged to do so by another (male) magician. I was pretty sure you'd reject my piece as too prosaic and hedge-witchy, and was surprised and over the moon when you accepted it. Without that extra encouragement, it might still be sitting on my hard drive.

(Incidentally, what's your policy on reprints? Since the journal came out I've had acouple of people enquire about using the same piece for their publications.)
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
20:31 / 08.04.07
Here's some more salt.

I've worked in the publishing industry for almost five years now, and I worked in the book selling and importing business all through high school. I go to the big publishing conferences and spend most of my day hustling around various publishing houses looking for work. The publishing industry is, by and large, staffed by women. Women form the overwhelming majority of the reading public—fiction, for instance, is read something like 80% by women. It is an industry dominated by women. Consider, for instance, the influence of Oprah Winfrey. Like her or not, that woman has for years been the sole arbiter of What Sells and What Doesn't.

I've done work for both Llewellyn and Weiser, the biggest magic publishing houses‚ and all of my editors and contacts at these companies have been women. In fact, in many cases my stuff has come across to them as quite strange and alien in a market mostly dominated by books by people like Doreen Virtue and the like. When I hang out with these people at the trade shows, I'm usually the only male for what seems like miles. Once again, take a look at the catalogs of those place.

Women are, by and large, the gatekeepers of esoteric publishing.

So what's the problem? Could it be simply that the target of your cries of injustice is your own inertia?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:32 / 08.04.07
In fact, now I come to think of it, virtually all the magical writing I've had printed so far was submitted because someone who knew what that editor wanted encouraged me to send it off, or was directly solicited by the editor hirself.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:44 / 08.04.07
I don't think anyone is howling with injustice, dude, and I don't think it's that simple. Something very complex is going on here and it starts well before a woman sits down and starts typing, let alone approaches a publisher. F'rinstance, I notice a similar skew in the male/female ratio of fora which discuss certain kinds of magic, with a similar but inverted skew happening in groups where more traditionally "feminine" kinds of magic are discussed. Some of these fora actively discourage women, of course, by being openly hostile, but more don't and in fact express regret that more women are not getting involved.

I'll certaily cop to inertia being a factor, but I think it's interesting to look at where that inertia comes from. I work pretty hard at my own practice and I love to write about it, but I've only had a tiny handful of pieces published on the subject and that only in the last couple of years. Every time I've looked at one of my posts and gone "ooh, artically, I might bodge that into shape and send it off to XYZ" another little voice has piped up and told me not to bother.

You raise an interesting point, though, about the prevelance of females in the publishing industry. I was not aware of that. Thing is, though, I've found women likely to be weirded-out or critical of my kind of magic, and my kind of writing, because it's not what they think of when they think of women's magic. If I were a Wiccan and wanted to write about my practices, I think I'd have a much bigger market than I do as a perverted Loki-worshipper.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
21:06 / 08.04.07
>You raise an interesting point, though, about the prevelance of females in the publishing industry. I was not aware of tha. Thing is, though, I've found women likely to be weirded-out or critical of my kind of magic, and my kind of writing, because it's not what they think of when they think of women's magic. If I were a Wiccan and wanted to write about my practices, I think I'd have a much bigger market than I do as a perverted Loki-worshipper.

Well, sure. That's true of everybody though. Only certain types of magic books sell. Occult publishing is a fucking shitheap and such a low-level game that one would be much better advised to get as far away from it as possible than to figure out how to win at it.

That said, you are a very talented and *clear* writer and could easily do a kind of Norse Trad for Beginners book that wouldn't be as hardcore as you would like but would sell quite well. But what we are talking about here is marketing concerns. If your book isn't on Wicca or Tarot, and isn't the Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey, chances are, it's not gonna sell more than 2000 copies at the most—which if you get a good deal, should probably make you the same number of dollars. Woo hoo! Crying havoc and soldiering on the New Aeon!

These are problems that effect everybody in publishing, but the simple truth is, magic books geared toward young girls with a Wiccan bent *sell the best.* Books on magic are largely written by women and gay men—and edited, published and marketed by them, too. Overly macho things like the Disinfo Book of Lies are abberations on the rule. The kind of "ontological anarchist" and chaos magic or whatever books that inspired the Invisibles and many of the people on this board are for the most part completely, um, invisible in terms of sales, minor-press efforts read by a tiny handful of specialists that look important if you're one of those specialists, but is a genre that even within the context of the *still miniscule* occult publishing world is so small as to be nonexistent.

I can count the macho male occult writers of note on one hand—OK, Crowley, and even Crowley doesn't sell shit for Weiser, unless we're talking about the Book of Thoth, and that's just because *Wiccan girls* buy it cause it's about Tarot. I've seen the numbers on these things. It's depressing, really. Who else can we throw in for Macho Magus? Parsons? Parsons' shit has been out of print for years. Bardon? Forget it. Me? HAHAHAHAA, I only wish! And I'm a sensitive tea-drinking mellow sort anyway and would likely lose at arm-wrestling to most of the women here.

Reality check. Occult publishing is a marginalized world. The occult is a marginalized world. Holds true for everybody in it. At least at this moment in history it is not critical to the functioning of society, you can't make money at it, you can't get famous at it, it won't help you get laid (at least by humans, ahaahhaahahahahahaha!), you can't put up drywall with it—so *nobody really cares.* That doesn't mean it's not important or noble. It goddamn well is or I wouldn't have put my life on it. But it's a very small sandbox that the kids playing in take as altogether more representative of a wider world with which it holds little overlap.

(Oh, btw, you retain copyright on your piece of course, it's yours to do whatever you want with.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:26 / 08.04.07
Thanks for this, dude, I'm starting to get a much clearer idea of where you're coming from now.

I think it's interesting that Wicca-derived or Wicca-related magic has become the mainstream, the kind of thing you find in Borders. I guess that if the main consumers of books are women then it would make sense for the kinds of books that sell well to turn out to be those books that are written by women and tailored to appeal to women. But that's not the sort of magical writing I was really referring to; it doesn't concern me very much. I would seldom buy a Llewllyn book, and then it would likely be a reprint of an older text that Llewellyn has bought the rights to, often after the original publisher has let it go out of print.

If you look outside the mainstream, to the tiny tiny small-press efforts you describe above on teh cutting edge!!23! of things, my impression (which I'm happy to have corrected) is that there are fewer female practitioners and thus far fewer women writing. What's stopping us? Why is it so hard to crawl out from the strangling influence of the fluffy shit most of us started out on? I totally was one of those little teenaged girls buying the tarot books, but somewhere along the line something changed. I wonder why it doesn't change for more women.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
21:27 / 08.04.07
Final note: J. K. Rowling. Smart enough to write about magic as kid-friendly fiction. Now the richest woman in the UK, and in publishing, and one of the most successful writers in history. More people have heard of her and absorbed and been affected by her work and been exposed to magic by her than by millions of Crowleys or Castanedas or Anton LaVeys put together. Knock knock.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
21:30 / 08.04.07
>If you look outside the mainstream, to the tiny tiny small-press efforts you describe above on teh cutting edge!!23! of things, my impression (which I'm happy to have corrected) is that there are fewer female practitioners and thus far fewer women writing.

Oh, well, that's easy. That's cause there's a conspiracy led by me to keep gross girls out of our secret gang hideout.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:31 / 08.04.07
More people have heard of her and absorbed and been affected by her work and been exposed to magic by her than by millions of Crowleys or Castanedas or Anton LaVeys put together

*Shudder*
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
21:49 / 08.04.07
*Quiver*
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:07 / 08.04.07
That *shudder* to JKR's all-pervasive influence, of course.

I should also perhaps note that one of the reasons I can't stand the majority of mainstream texts is because much of them are howlingly sexist. "Benevolent" sexism which valourises certain supposedly feminine traits at the expence of denigrating other, supposedly masculine, traits is still sexism.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
00:35 / 09.04.07
Personally, I'm howlingly tired of magick books that claim to be queer and edgy but still do nothing but re-inscribe traditional gender roles.

There's got to be people out exploring what it means to be genderqueer of one flavour or another while you're neck deep in magic, right?

I guess this is part of a larger problem... well, several larger problems. There's marketing issues, sure. There's audience issues, sure... but there's also a real tendency in occult writing to draw from within the occulture as opposed to pulling ideas from outside our little neck of the woods. To take things back to my comments on queer magic books - why are so many books that touch on that topic completely out of touch with queer theory in the academic sense? Seriously, back in the day, I used to tell people that the most important book on magic that I'd read recently was Judith Butler's "Undoing Gender" -- and I wasn't just being snarky. There's so much to be had by reaching out from magic to other disciplines.*

Anyway, I've only skimmed the Journal so far. I loved the Bowie piece and BiaS's and Mordant's pieces. The "instant Bushiso" ritual is both funny and brilliantly useful.

*I guess, the question that follows that up is: Am I the only one interested in that sort of thing? I keep thinking that if I started writing in that direction, that there isn't a real audience for it.
 
 
penitentvandal
08:05 / 09.04.07
Louv's piece... well, who here wouldn't be dead if they'd tried 10% of that work in the same period of time?

Hang on, is this the piece listed as 'new fiction by Jason Louv?'

Because, you see...oh, fuck it. Even I'm not dumb enough to try and explain fiction/reality boundaries to a guy who caught the train from Selfawaria to Lovecraftworld then blew up the goddam railroad.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:27 / 09.04.07
Jason has more than one bit in the book, VeVe.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:34 / 09.04.07
There's got to be people out exploring what it means to be genderqueer of one flavour or another while you're neck deep in magic, right?


You'll have been here, yeah? I recommend basically getting anything you can lay your hands on by Raven Kaldera. He's got a ton of work out on Lulu, as well as having been picked up by mainstream publishers such as Llewellyn. RK is a transman and his magical writings come very much from a queer perspective.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:37 / 09.04.07
*I guess, the question that follows that up is: Am I the only one interested in that sort of thing? I keep thinking that if I started writing in that direction, that there isn't a real audience for it.

I'd read it. Your audience would be tiny, obv, but very appreciative.
 
 
penitentvandal
08:40 / 09.04.07
Jason has more than one bit in the book, VeVe.

Ah, fair enough. Only saw the fiction bit at first.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:08 / 09.04.07
There's got to be people out exploring what it means to be genderqueer of one flavour or another while you're neck deep in magic, right? (snip) Am I the only one interested in that sort of thing? I keep thinking that if I started writing in that direction, that there isn't a real audience for it.

1. Yes there are.
2. No you're not.
3. Don't think about the audience. Think about what you want to say. Please do write; please start a thread. I will contribute, and I think others will too.

Something good has to come out of this shitty exchange.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
20:27 / 09.04.07
velvet bargains, no ax in hand - the fiction piece is the *other* piece by BiaS. The magical diary piece does not read like fiction, in as much as photographs from at least one critical point were on the web at some point.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:47 / 09.04.07
Re-reading my earlier posts to this thread in the light of BiaS' contributions, I realise that I was in fact culpably unclear in what I wrote. I wrote about a lack of female voices in magical writing; what I should have said was a lack of female voices in anything that isn't the bloody fucking 80s-hair-and-dressing-gown mainstream crap I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. That doesn't com through in what I wrote and I think I inadvertently created a fair bit of ill-feeling where there didn't need to be any and I'll be more careful in future.

I hope I have clarified all that in my later posts but I just thought I'd make it crystal.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
21:16 / 09.04.07
No ill-feelings.
 
 
Princess
21:24 / 09.04.07
Genderqueer magic would be something I'd likve to talk/read about.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
21:26 / 09.04.07
See Generation Hex, articles by Scott Treleaven, Shaun Frente, etc.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:34 / 09.04.07
I'm not the most clued-up person to be writing about this and I don't identify as queer (tho' I'm happy to be so identified by queer folk, very happy indeed) but should probably put something down about the happy little noodlings up and down the gender nursery slopes I have been enjoying courtesy of my spirit-work.
 
 
charrellz
20:15 / 12.04.07
My copy finally arrived in the mail the other day, and I am loving this book. I'll be back with more insightful commentary in a week or so when I've finished a read through.
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
04:04 / 15.04.07
I just got the book yesterday and have a really odd coincidence surrounding it. I was fliping through the book (literally, a very fast flipping of the pages was involved) and I hit on an article that catchs my eyes, the one about David Bowie, cause you know, it's about fucking david bowie (and oddly enough I had recieved Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me the previous day), and my eyes immediately catch on to a name I recognize: Gustav Grundgens.

This is a coincidence because a class that I am currently taking (called Modern Promethean myth) is basically all about the the guy, with the last half of the class being devoted almost entirely to a study of him, his acting, the book "Memphisto" by Klaus Mann (which is a roman a clef about grundgens and his involvement with the nazis), and the film adaptation of the novel. Plus the professor takes for hours and hours about the guy.
 
  

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