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Ultraculture Journal One

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:15 / 18.04.07
It pains me to do this, it really does, but I thought people here should know about this thread on the Ultraculture discussion group.

I was so sickened by the comments about Vodoun made by fellow contributor "Shivanath" (known in these parts as Epop) that I wrote to the editor and asked for my piece to be pulled rather than be associated with him. What's even more disturbing is that the editor has come out in support of Shivanath and his intolerant, libellous grandstanding.

Like I say it gives me no pleasure to do this. I was so thrilled and so excited about this project, and now I just feel like I need a bath. I'm not trying to engineer some kind of pointless feud here and I have no further interest in contacting those involved. I just thought that people here should be made aware of the kind of individuals lurking amongst these "heroes of the Ultraculture."
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
09:43 / 18.04.07
UC1 has a goodly body of material by people who are living Masters of the Art.

I don't want to be a master or my art because that would mean my art had limitations, that I was rapidly being limited by.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:08 / 18.04.07
I'd claim to be no sort of magician at all, but, without wishing to cause any untoward trouble, it does seem as if Epop/Shivanath is somebody best avoided.
 
 
Quantum
10:44 / 18.04.07
It's such a shame.
"We have both made it very clear that we hold space here. And we have made it very clear that you are not welcome here."
I'm amazed they both think that their personal experiences define an entire trad and don't have a problem with that. 'Voodoo' is evil? Because you've known nasty people who labelled themselves Voodoo?
Christ on a bike, I've known nasty people who were mean to me and mine who were abuse survivors, that doesn't mean I can say that all abuse survivors carry evil lifesucking astral leeches around because that one guy did. That's known as the fallacy of insufficient statistics, or leaping to a conclusion. Interestingly it's kinda the opposite fallacy to Loki's wager.
I expect crazy ranting from epop, but I'm surprised by the editor joining in.
 
 
Z. deScathach
11:39 / 18.04.07
Truthfully, I had just joined that group looking forward to the fact that it seemed like Ultraculture was finally moving forward. I've always felt strongly that practitioners of magick need to get past the whole, "You are all EVIL!" argument, and work together to fix the problems of our world. And what do I find? The abovementioned thread. The words that I verbalized out loud after I saw Jason's response to Shivanath's over the top statements were, "Great, another f****ng war. It just never..... ends......" I never got a post off.

The whole thing deeply saddened me. When we fight and hate each other, that represents a serious diversion of INTENT, and INTENT is magickal currency. I had thought about mentioning this in the group, but with Jason's response, I realized that there was no point.

I will not join Ultraculture, neither will I support it. My experience over the years has been that magickal practitioners of any system can vary greatly in terms of their ethics. To blanketly label a tradition as evil, and then say that practitioners who have had positive experiences are "deluded fools", is, in my estimation, wrong-headed. The desire to heal the world through purifying it has never worked. It has been tried by many, and history has found it wanting, ALWAYS.

Mordant, I think that you should start a thread on this. I wish I could, but it's WAY past sleeptime for me, and I need to get some rest. You've been fighting the good fight for a number of days now. Good for you....
 
 
betty woo
11:39 / 18.04.07
It does seem to run counter to the Ultraculture mission statement (as put forward on this thread, and as noted in the first call to open ritual), what with being exclusionary to a specific tradition and claiming ownership of the Ultraculture. Perhaps I am misreading and the space being claimed is solely the mailing list, and not the Ultraculture project itself.

I certainly respect the rights of the folks involved to specify what they are and are not willing to include, although it would be helpful to know if there are any other trads or paradigms that are unwelcome - if you're encouraging people to BYO System to the party, you should probably note on the invite which ones the hosts want left at the door.
 
 
power vacuums & pure moments
12:14 / 18.04.07
The basic mechanism: displacement of an individual human consciousness from their body and temporary replacement with a parasitic life-force-harvesting energy - this kind of psychic body prostitution in payment for magical favors - is inherently problematic.

Whats wrong with that statement? The anology about crack in the same post makes it clear its just his opinion. Ive never practiced voudoun or been involved with anything resembling invocation and i have my reasons for that, which are linked to my yoga practice. How far does your relativism in relation to belief systems go? Personally i would like to reserve the right to condemn concepts that i find to be fraudulent, for example fundamentalist xtianity. Expressing criticism doesnt stop people from practicing these systems does it?

Shivanath has made a lot of very suspect comments recently and i find it hard to take elements of his writing seriously, for ultraculture and on key23....but i dont think there is anything particulary wrong with his comments on Vodoun beyond the 'tone' in which it was said.
 
 
Princess
12:28 / 18.04.07
"...parasitic life-force-harvesting energy...psychic body prostitution...inherently problematic.

How is that not problematic? Calling someone's God's parasites is not OK. Calling vodouisant's prostitutes, (with the problematic implication that hookers are bad), is not ok.

Then, telling other people that their experience is deluded but *yours* is pure TRUTH! is just stupid. Stupid. So stupid it makes my brain hurt and my nipples bleed.
 
 
Quantum
12:29 / 18.04.07
i dont think there is anything particulary wrong with his comments on Vodoun beyond the 'tone' in which it was said.

Wow. Really? You don't? Do you want me to pluck quotes from that thread that I find particularly wrong as examples?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:33 / 18.04.07
The problem with that statement is that it in no way reflects the mechanism upon which either Vodou or trance possession operates from. You do not give your body over to parasitic life-force harvesting entities in return for magical favours as a form of psychic body prostitution. You make offerings to the Lwa of food and drink, sometimes they possess you to give prophecy or pass on information to other people who might be present using you as the medium. It is a form of spiritual communion with the Divine that has a lot in common with things like pentecostal rapture or speaking in tongues that also emanate from similar African and African Diaspora cultural traditions. Your life force is not "harvested" in these experiences and it is not a mercantile transaction that is done for the acquisition of power. It is spiritual communion with deity.

I can tell you this as I've been a Voodoo practitioner for the best part of a decade, and my experiences have been and continue to be a positive, joyful and empowering communion with nature in its many forms.
 
 
Quantum
12:33 / 18.04.07
Like this one as the first to hand

*horribly offensive quote elided*

You don't think there's anything particularly wrong with saying that? Replace Voodoo with Yoga and see how it reads to you then.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:37 / 18.04.07
Can we not post quoted hate speech in this thread, as I've read quite enough ignorant and intolerant words over the last few days to last me a lifetime.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:42 / 18.04.07
Personally i would like to reserve the right to condemn concepts that i find to be fraudulent, for example fundamentalist xtianity.

Well, define "fraudulent". Presumably you mean concepts, or belief systems, which you believe to be false, yes? Or the actions of the practitioners of these belief systems?

This is a bit different from saying that Jesus is evil, and if any angels wander into your astral space you have a policy of killing them immediately.

Then, determine where this right is reserved. One issue here appears to be that contributions were solicited from contributors and consumers under the impression that "Ultraculture" was as a movement not going to exclude and condemn significant magical paths at the discretion of the management, and further that protests about these paths being called irredeemably evil will be met with hostility from the management. If this is the case, then it explains why some people, possibly used to the open culture of Barbelith, have either asked for their contribution to be removed from the publication or resolved not to be involved in future.

If the project is actually set up for Shivanath/Epop to troll people then that's fine, but it is probably best to make that clear from the start, so that people can make judgements about whether they want to be involved in a project the aim of which is to set up a community where Shivanath/Epop can troll people.
 
 
Quantum
12:45 / 18.04.07
i would like to reserve the right to condemn concepts that i find to be fraudulent,

I would too, like the concept that voodoo involves displacement of an individual human consciousness from their body and temporary replacement with a parasitic life-force-harvesting energy. I'd like to condemn that, because as 2headed rudeboy rightly explains it's a fraudulent concept. Constructed by a fantasist who implies everyone involved in voodoo is a rapist.
He even says explicitly I'm an inflammatory asshole, and everybody knows it. When he wrote Shivanath is a fiction suit, performance art, a magical persona. I'm only partly joking when I say that Shivanath has a mind of its own. my immediate thought was "Oh do fuck off you pretentious arrogant asshat" because it's so like what so many trolls have said here. Horsefly, trickster, jiggling reality tunnels and poking paradigms for our own good etc etc. BOLLOCKS.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:18 / 18.04.07
if you're encouraging people to BYO System to the party, you should probably note on the invite which ones the hosts want left at the door.

Since I was invited to contribute to Ultraculture Journal 1 – and the day before all of this horrorshow kicked off I was actually exchanging perfectly normal freindly email correspondence with Jason like we have done for many years – I'm not sure what demented parallel dimension we suddenly seem to have slipped into. "Nothing will ever be the same" indeed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:21 / 18.04.07
Well, yeah. It's trolling, but if the Ultraculture board or the Ultraculture movement has been set up predicated on the idea that Epop should be allowed to troll, that's really the business of its organisers - like Byrne Robotics banning people for disagreeing with John Byrne, or sites banning people for swearing. Epop trolled here, and would probably have been banned for it if he hadn't closed the connectors instead. Other communities can set their own rules. However, if those communities advertise their products on Barbelith, promote their board on Barbelith or solicit members of Barbelith for contributions, it might be good manners to provide that heads-up. Which, in a sense, has now been provided, at least.
 
 
Ticker
13:35 / 18.04.07
For myself I find the path of generalizations to be the antithesis of productive magic. To say all cases of anything are a certain way is to close the door on learning new insights. Every moment, every interaction, and every being must be greeted without preconceived ideas forcing the exchange to simply conform to your expectations. Certainly prior experience prepares/shapes us but we must never let it hobble us or blind us to what is at hand.

I may condemn actions performed by certain people as part of their religious activities but those are specific cases set in definable moments and not generalizations.

To promote intolerance is not remotely the same as productively and critically examining current or ancient practices.
 
 
Quantum
13:46 / 18.04.07
Which, in a sense, has now been provided, at least.

In a sense. A kind of at-this-late-stage-we-suddenly-hate-voodoo-so-get-lost-U-R-teh-evil sense.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
14:02 / 18.04.07
I expect crazy ranting from epop, but I'm surprised by the editor joining in.

I'm not familiar with the editor; I read the thread you linked to MC, but I didn't see much crazy ranting in support of epop.

I've always felt strongly that practitioners of magick need to get past the whole, "You are all EVIL!" argument, and work together to fix the problems of our world.

I agree, though I wonder how one can define something as problematic once they've gotten past the concept of right and wrong.

The basic mechanism: displacement of an individual human consciousness from their body and temporary replacement with a parasitic life-force-harvesting energy - this kind of psychic body prostitution in payment for magical favors - is inherently problematic

I know SFA about the LWA though I do have a pretty good grasp on parasitic life-force-harvesting energies; a parasitic relationship is a consistent and long term one whereby the host is harmed from the interaction, so a "temporary replacement... in payment for magical favors" cannot be considered parasitic.
 
 
Quantum
14:12 / 18.04.07
The problem with that statement is that it in no way reflects the mechanism upon which either Vodou or trance possession operates from. You do not give your body over to parasitic life-force harvesting entities in return for magical favours as a form of psychic body prostitution. 2 headed rudeboy, up a few posts.
 
 
Blake Head
14:22 / 18.04.07
I'm not familiar with the editor; I read the thread you linked to MC, but I didn't see much crazy ranting in support of epop.

Last couple of pages Mako. Not so much ranting as total unwillingness to listen to the arguments or experiences of others, in the context of supporting an exclusionary space for offensive, raving lunacy.

With Mordant, Gypsy and Rosie x displaying the patience of [angels/other relevant divine beings] to engage with it all as politely and coherently as they did.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
14:42 / 18.04.07
As a non-practitioner, I was seriously going to buy this just for a window into what it's all about -- paycheck later today -- but after reading that Ultraculture thread, I think I'll just keep my money and get some ice cream instead.
 
 
rosie x
14:50 / 18.04.07
I mentioned it briefly in my few postings on the Ultraculture (now the official Voodoo hate club) thread, but just to summarize: I found the similarity between some of Epop / Shiv's and Jason's derogatory comments, and hate propaganda published by New Orleans newspapers during the Reconstruction (1870's and 80's) quite alarming.

Between Abolition and the emergence of Jim Crow ("separate but equal" laws in the American South, i.e. blacks at the back of the bus etc.) there was a period of time when it looked, for a brief moment, that people of African descent had a true chance to gain political and social power. Especially in Louisiana, where much of the Creole population had been free and prosperous before the war. After the American Civil War, the white establishment of New Orleans, in an effort to reassert its perceived superiority and crush the emerging black power movement, led a virulent hate campaign against Voodoo.

African religion and customs had been thriving in Louisiana since the arrival of the first Senegalese slaves in the late 17th century. Various religious traditions from all regions of West Africa mingled with Native American beliefs and European Catholicism to become what was known as Voodoo. After the Haitian revolution of 1804, 10,000 emigrants fled to New Orleans, tripling the city's population and reducing the European population to a significant minority. Voodoo was loosely tolerated during slavery (oh let the savages have their silly customs...) but after Abolition it was a much different story. White owned newspapers began to publish fictionalized reports on the evils of Voodoo, complete with witchcraft, interracial sexual orgies and human sacrifice.

These stories filled the newspapers of New Orleans at the time, and were often used as an example of why people of African descent were unfit to live among whites, and should have their property repossessed, be denied education or suffrage, sent back to Africa, or just plain lynched. As late as the 1940's and 50's, writers such as Robert Tallant were drawing on these sensationalist and hateful "news reports" as historical truth. It was this sort of propaganda which gave birth to the Great American Fear of Voodoo, popularized and reiterated time and time again in thousands of pulp novels and Hollywood B Movies.

So, basically, this stuff is nothing new.

In nearly a decade of practice, I've never encountered any of the horrors that Shiv and Jason claim to have witnessed, and hell, I've seen a lot of Voodoo. My experiences of the religion have been positive and life affirming; the practitioners, priests and priestesses I've had the honor to meet have been an inspiration to me. I've met so many good people, doing such good work for themselves, their loved ones, and their communities. My only negative experiences have been a handful of brief encounters with charlatans and dodgy docs. Frankly, I'm not sure what these two guys were on about, but it smacks of paranoia, hatred, bigotry and racism.

I want to thank all of the members of Barbelith who have taken a stand against this shit in the past few days, especially MC, GL and DL. Y'all have been lovely, thanks so much.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:58 / 18.04.07
I've been taking a bit of an extended break from barbelith over the last few months, but as Rosie says, incidents like this really drive home to me how valuable and precious a space barbelith really is for its willingness to stand up and resist this sort of hate and intolerance whenever it rears its ugly head.
 
 
Princess
15:01 / 18.04.07
In a way, I'm almost sad for them. Obviously, all the anti-diasporic stuff was pure wanktitude, but the fact they don't see how ridiculous they are is kinda, well, upsetting. I don't think I need to bring out the "maladaptive coping mechanism" thread, but I can really see it's relevance. The paranoia, fantasy and lameness was just so overpowering. Honestly, Jason's "we hold space" post may has well have read "You Will Not Pass!!!!"

Poor pitiable wankers.
 
 
Ticker
15:01 / 18.04.07
rosie x was wonderful over in that fuckfestival of discussion and I'm sorry she, GL, MC and the other folks had to expend so much energy and were treated so poorily.

I do hope everyone involved knows their voices were heard by other people and their efforts were productive. I found their expriences, while sourced from different traditions, very resonate with my own.

Humanity can be a fucked up awful thing or a miracle of beauty. Yet to place the responsibilty of that decision outside of the human being making it is always a tragic mistake.

My copy of UC should be arriving any day now and sadly instead of reading it to support and learn from other people I think I'm going to have it send it unopened to the editor with a note explaining why.
 
 
The Falcon
15:13 / 18.04.07
Quite right; did the editor not, in fact, make some rueful and ominous sub-threat to rosie's boyfriend there? Or do I imagine? No, there we go, post #125.

Because, though I do no magick whatsoever anymore, never did much, and no longer possess the book, I am still experiencing some regret over my cutprice purchase of the Book of Lies as a result.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:28 / 18.04.07
i would like to reserve the right to condemn concepts that i find to be fraudulent --power vacuums & pure moments

I would too, like the concept that voodoo involves displacement of an individual human consciousness from their body and temporary replacement with a parasitic life-force-harvesting energy. I'd like to condemn that, because as 2headed rudeboy rightly explains it's a fraudulent concept. --Quantum.

Like I said over on the linked thread, not actually involved with Vodoun etc. but I do have some experience of possession. I cannot stress strongly enough that the model of spirit-possession presented by Shivanath is fraudulent, misleading, and downright dangerous. It's an all-too-common libel, presenting an ugly distortion of a healthy, natural spiritual process. It is not a neutral "opinion"--this kind of "opinion" creates unnecessary pain and trauma for people who find themselves experiencing possession in the course of their magical work or religious devotions. I credit shite like this with half* of the difficulties and trouble I've had in dealing with this kind of work.

Possession by one's beloved Gods and spirits is not parasitism. It's not some horrible invasion by a monstrous alien force. The worst I could possibly say of it is "well, that took a bit of getting used to."



*with the other 50% being attributable to my being a big fat control freak--full disclosure and all that.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:30 / 18.04.07
PS: rosie x--with a bit of expansion, elaboration and general unpacking, that post upthread would make a fine article for some lucky publication.
 
 
jentacular dreams
15:34 / 18.04.07
>>As a culture, we learned, and you'll now see that most of our teachers in the west are women... Hopefully as the lineages make repairs and figure out why otherwise good teachers turned into abusive fucks in the western environment, we'll get some of the men back over here and try it again.

[headdesk]

http://shivanath.livejournal.com/

[deskhead]

Maybe it's time we had a What if Shivanath/Epop had posted THAT on Barbel- oh, wait...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:41 / 18.04.07
In a way, I'm almost sad for them.

Well, devastated and heartbroken would be a more accurate description of how I'm feeling right now, since I have counted the editor as a very close and dear friend for more years than barbelith has been up and running.
 
 
Ticker
15:54 / 18.04.07
I'm sorry that you've had to experience this, Gypsy. In time perhaps he'll come to understand the disservice he's done to you and to himself in holding to this viewpoint.


rosie x, I agree with MC about the potential article. In light of the recent ugliness maybe it really needs to get into circulation?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
15:55 / 18.04.07
Perhaps the lesson behind this whole Ultra Culture / Epop / BiaS car-crash is that it's really quite a bad idea to advertise on Barbelith?

That said, the moment I get paid I'm getting myself a Hexayurt, erecting it in Rekyavik, and filling the fucker full of Voodoo priests.
 
 
rosie x
16:34 / 18.04.07
I agree with MC about the potential article. In light of the recent ugliness maybe it really needs to get into circulation?

Wow, thanks to both of you for the support and encouragement. I'm fascinated by Louisisana history, from colonial times to the present day. I gave a talk last year about Marie Laveau and New Orleans Voodoo in the 19th century, but have never considered publishing. Hmmm...

For the time being, I recommend anyone who's interested in the history of Voodoo in Louisiana to pick up a copy of Carolyn Morrow Long's A New Orleans Voudou Priestess: The Legend and Reality of Marie Laveau. It's a groundbreaking academic work and has really set a new watermark in terms of Louisiana research. Voodoo Queen: The Spirited Lives of Marie Laveau by Martha Ward is another excellent source.
 
 
ghadis
16:48 / 18.04.07
God, i've just spent the last couple of hours wading through that Ultraculture mess of a thread and am left with feelings of rage, astonishment, admiration, more rage and anger, sadness and disappointment (you can play the join the emotion to the post game if you want but its quite easy). It really is such a shame as i've always enjoyed and had huge respect for Jasons projects and himself but i really don't get where he is coming from in his alliance with SN and his idiotic views. Was planning on getting UC soon but i'm not sure if i want to support it now. Hopefully i'll get to read MCs and other contributers writings in other publications.

Was quite inspiring to read peoples often magnanimous replies in the face of such stupidity though. Well done all.
 
  

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