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Ultraculture Journal One

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17:33 / 18.04.07

Personally, what bothered me even more than SN's hateful comments (sticks and stones you know...) was his adamant refusal to, at any point, reveal any identifying information regarding the perpetrators of the alleged crimes he claimed were committed in the name of Voodoo. After being questioned not one, but several times, on the subject. It was just completely avoided.

No one was asking about the victims here, only the people he claimed were raping women during Voodoo ceremonies, driving people to suicide and madness, infiltrating and destroying communities etc etc. I personally, having never seen these horrors in Voodoo, would love to know who these individuals are, and I reckon a lot of other folks in the greater community would like to know as well.

If he was uncomfortable naming individuals directly, then what about a little identifying information in regards to their specific organizations, houses, traditions, lineages, locations? Basically anything would have been appreciated. If these things are truly happening, then what value is there in protecting the perpetrators of these crimes with anonymity? Should people not be alerted and warned about these monstrous individuals?

Out of respect, I took SN's word that his experience with these things was truthful and valid. I'm really second guessing that now, and wondering if all these horror stories were in truth products of his paranoid imagination, designed to give credibility to a platform of hate and bigotry.

17:46 / 18.04.07

It's not some horrible invasion by a monstrous alien force.

I don't want to get all Psych 101, but is my intuition plausible that epop's perception of possession in voodoo as violation has something to do with his obsession with rape?
Just sayin'.

18:01 / 18.04.07

Yay, don't go there Quants. It leads down the slippery slope of questioning someone with a self id rape victim history.

BACK AWAY FROM THE ANALYSIS!!!

IMO he threw up a lot of finger pointing bidness at people without any proof at people in our community we respect and an entire tradition. The inner workings of why are his own concern while ours is to roundly reject his claims when he fails to produce anything except his own opinion as evidence.

Speculating on why people prefer to generalize goes back to othering as a weapon of dehumanizing agendas. If I dehumanize someone by virtue of their acts of ultimate villainy I can then justify ignoring their voice - or so the argument goes. If I connect one person's villainy to the collective group I can justify ignoring that entire group.

It's akin to saying because Person K loved cats they commited atrocities therefore all people who love cats are commiting or capable of commiting atrocities.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:09 / 18.04.07

Dude, I don't think that's a very healthy path of speculation to go down.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:10 / 18.04.07

X-post.

18:34 / 18.04.07

BACK AWAY I think you're both right, am backing away. Just to be clear though, I'm not questioning his survivor status, far from it. I believe him.

Backing away...

19:41 / 18.04.07

Wow, that Ultraculture thing is like six-times worse than what he posted here. And again with the rape-trump, disregarding factors, like, um, if a Catholic priest rapes someone it may not imply Catholicism necessitates rape. Because it's bad bad voodoo, y'see. With bad bad pity-me people who've never experiences opression themselves but are just magick whores.

Wow. I'm so enlightened now.

Really. Because I was almost like ready to just let it be a bad week for the guy and... wow.

We can always see a (formerly...) if someone changes their name on here, right?

19:58 / 18.04.07

I do love his rant about the Sin o' Satan, though. Y'know, the one that's been tossed about and debated to death and back by pulpit-pushers, psychologists, snake oil salesmen and various other forms of analyser, since, um, since somebody worked up the story in the first place?

Is his basic excuse that it's all a fictionsuit magicky put on? And is that just the magick equivalent of excusing behaviour by copping to being wasted at the time?

Does anyone agree about inciting anger or being an ass as being therapeutic? 'Cause I'm just not buying it. Being direct or being flat-out honest about bad things to get people to see/recognize? Sure. Being viciously antagonistic for change? Someone's got a bad leg they could use a little more than they do... do you go about kicking their good leg out from under them to get them to put more weight on the bum one?

There's some very good, interesting people doing the Ultraculture thing. Some unnervingly patient attempts to talk things out and glean something useful from shit accusations. Some useful avenues and redirections of analyses, of practice and the world. And then there's something very off-putting about the whole atmosphere.

Shivanath/Epop just seems too much of a trope... like that shmuck from 'Lord of Illusions' or something. And if you come off like a cheesy over-obsessive movie villain, there may be something off on the whole practice. Unless you stroke a cat while you're at it; that fixes shit right up.

21:00 / 18.04.07

As unminded as I am to do this kind of thing normally, I do think that this evening, I might mutter something along the lines of 'go away, foul fiend' as and when I make my way up the wooden stairs to Bedfordshire.

21:30 / 18.04.07

I'd like to at least point out that Shivanath/Epop's philippic on the subject of Tibetan Buddhism is about as wrongheaded as his go at Voodoo. I noticed that no one has yet responded to his casually derogatory post (concluded with a cheery "April Fool [sic]"), and I didn't want to leave it completely unanswered, although I have no particular desire to join the Ultraculture Google group. Fortunately, I think that by now, S/E's been more or less discredited as a source of information on spiritual traditions not his own.

It's a bummer to see that two of the thirteen threads in the Google group involve the bashing of deeply cherished religions. "Ultraculture?" Really?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:06 / 18.04.07

Yeah, I would have had a pop at that too but I know even less about Tibetan Buddhism than I do about Vodoun.

(You know what's weird? If I hadn't mentioned Port-au-Prince in passing this might never have all kicked off and I'd be none the wiser about the extent of this guy's problems. I almost mentioned an Indian city instead but thought that might be interpreted as covert racism. Ho hum.)

22:26 / 18.04.07

S/E's been more or less discredited as a source of information on spiritual traditions not his own.

I'd like to take off the 'not his own' part there, as far as I'm concerned he's got absolutely nothing to teach except hate and paranoia. I don't care if he can magically summon choronzon with one buttock and mind control the president of America, if the result of his practice is claiming conspiracy and sowing strife I don't want to know. I'll find someone else who leads by example rather than by braggadocio.
I can almost believe Jason that he's an effective magician of some kind in meatspace. If that were so, I am reminded of the story of the dude who learnt to walk on water across a river, after years of meditation and fasting, and was reminded by the enlightened master that the ferry over the river cost a penny. What's the point of having astral head explodey if people think you're a wanker?

23:11 / 18.04.07

I'd like to take off the 'not his own' part there, as far as I'm concerned he's got absolutely nothing to teach except hate and paranoia.

Fair enough. I think I was just trying to be conservative and go for the lesser included offense.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

23:48 / 18.04.07

What's the point of having astral head explodey if people think you're a wanker?

Or, more to the point, if they think you're a wanker because, well, you're actually being a complete wanker.

05:47 / 19.04.07

Personally, what bothered me even more than SN's hateful comments (sticks and stones you know...) was his adamant refusal to, at any point, reveal any identifying information regarding the perpetrators of the alleged crimes he claimed were committed in the name of Voodoo. After being questioned not one, but several times, on the subject. It was just completely avoided.

Indeed. Coming from someone who's on a mission to save the world, apparently, it would have seemed only reasonable for Epop to have at least hinted at the names of some of the groups in question.

Unless, that is, he actively wants anyone interested to have their souls eaten by the parasitic astral vampires he goes on, and on, and on, about.

But he's a trickster, as he says himself.

He is Coyote.

06:06 / 19.04.07

Mako is a hungy fish wrote: I agree, though I wonder how one can define something as problematic once they've gotten past the concept of right and wrong.

It's my opnion that condemning the practice of calling all members of a group evil is not going PAST write and wrong, but moving from a blunt instrument to a more sharp one. Generalizations are easy to make, as they require less critical thnking. The problem with demonizing a group is that it then becomes easy to make a decision to eradicate them. We all know, I presume, what happens then.

My point is that hatred of groups IS the problem that needs to be overcome, if we are to have a peaceful world

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:33 / 19.04.07

Does anyone agree about inciting anger or being an ass as being therapeutic? 'Cause I'm just not buying it.

Good, because it's a crock of shite. Fucking hate that concept, I really do. Of all the self-centred, self-aggrandising attitudes to take, you know?

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't need any more angry in my head. I spend an appreciable chunk of my life painfully, gnawingly angry. Sometimes I can't sleep for bitter rage. "Being direct or being flat-out honest about bad things to get people to see/recognize" is fine by me, but have you ever noticed how these gadflies, these tricksters, these holy fools always seem to peddle their crap around places that have an investment in tolerance and egalitarianism? Why Barbelith rather than Stormfront? Could it possibly be that they're a bunch of spineless reactionary jackasses who prefer to attack small groups with little power rather than tackle big scary targets that might bite back, and who have a more than sneaking sympathy for those on the Right?

14:10 / 20.04.07

Personally, I agree with you. The idea that there is something holy about hurting people enough to "challenge their reality tunnels" fails on a number of levels, not the least being that injury seldom produces the above effect. Actually, my observation is that inflicting injury on others merely gets them to dig into their position in order to stop the discomfort and pain. If anything, it strengthens those "reality tunnels",(scare quotes intentional).

14:37 / 20.04.07

A lot of magical and mystical people like to claim that they're Blowing People's Minds when they're really just looking for an excuse to Be An Asshole.

Seems to me there's a right way and a wrong way to try to blow minds.

For example,

Right way: Yippies announce they're marching on the Pentagon to levitate it and banish the evil spirits inside. They put flowers in soldiers' gunbarrels.

Wrong way: Weather Underground blows up a statue dedicated to policemen who died in the line of duty. Then they smash a bank window.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:11 / 20.04.07

This just gets worse and worse.

18:19 / 20.04.07

Is it at this point productive for us to be directing any energy in reviewing or discussing their work?

I feel like we're posting links to a certain shitty BADWEATHERASSHOLELINE site that really is best to condemn and stop giving attention to.

18:28 / 20.04.07

"These [lwa] are literally insectile
beings that naturally live in this level of reality."

!?!

"As anybody with a knowledge of
NLP can quote to you, your Focus Determines Your Reality"

You're not wrong there Mr L.

18:34 / 20.04.07

There is probably something to be said for being aware of what others in a similar line are up to. A Republican forum would have at least one thread on what liberals are up to this week. A vegetarian forum would have at least one thread running about vegans or people who believe that being a vegetarian means that they won't eat mammals (because chicken is a vegetable, yes it is).

I for one welcome our 'ambassadors of an ancient and mighty magical empire which predates buddhism by at least three thousand years, and which has weathered the storms of Islam, Buddhism and Time itself undiminished' if only in the same way Samuel Clemens suggested welcoming a man who challenges you to a duel of honor.

I think the issue is that we share a planet with these people, so if somebody else is willing to play constant voyeur and keep an eye on them for me, I'm only to happy to know (a) they exist, (b) they're standing over there and (c) if they're getting onto anything that might actually effect me. I read White House announcements when they come out for the same reasons.

18:48 / 20.04.07

all very important ideas but where is the line between being a watchdog and giving an ugly viewpoint a wider audience than it really deserves?

Specificly in magic where you put your focus is important. Obv. the goal for some of these people is to create a big production around what is basically rascist intolerant trash.

They want us to be paying attention to them and reposting their drama filled blatherings. Other people have mentioned upthread that we do not need to be quoting or reposting painful bits of their venom to potentially hurt other people.

I guess I feel we have already reviewed their shit and until it changes it is the same poison filled useless muck it was yesterday. I do not see anything productive in reviewing it endlessly unless it changes.

In fact S's agenda is to create these mirrors of drama for his back patting 'look at me I'm changing the world' drivel. The most powerful message we can send him is that he doesn't matter because he is wrong.

18:51 / 20.04.07

It actually seemed like the Ultraculture thing was getting a fair amount of attention, worldwide (english-speaking parts being the parts that geographically count as the world, of course), and I've assumed the interest has kept up, mostly because of certain anthologies and journals coming out. Maybe not. I don't pay a great deal of attention in those areas, so... if it's not the case, and we are really widening the awareness, yeah, it'd be time to close up those windows and go about our business.

Which isn't being worldclass bullet-shitters of fear and acidpowerz. One would hope.

18:58 / 20.04.07

I think it's fair to say we'd rather not fuel the fire, but I think keeping an eye on it isn't necessarily a bad idea either. I can fully understand why TTS among others might be quite invested in the situation and might want to discuss it, and I don't know if it's right to discourage that.

I only posted those excerpts because I'm amazed at them coming from that source, it's not my intention to dredge up any more stuff, notably because some people are still attempting to build bridges and it won't help. But y'know, *amazed*.

I'm off to set up an LJ account.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

19:03 / 20.04.07

(a) As I understand it, investing emotion and attention in the rapidly sprawling disaster over there is just going to feed it. They loves the drama, they does.

(b) Something real good has come out of this, in the form of the Temple publication being discussed in Creation, so this was perhaps all part of the big machine working to make that good thing.

(c) If as Jason says, Grant Morrison has died and been replaced by evil insect rape gods to spread their word, how come he and Epop are hand-holding best buds? I think there needs to be some story-straightening over yonder, and it's that sort of thing that will crush the hate machine more than overt action ever could.

Once people get a taste for schisming they'll just keep chopping themselves into tinier and tinier chunks, because there's no rush like the rush of making yourself bigger by smallifying somebody else. Let 'em go. They'll self-consume without any outside help.

Focus on the productive good. The bad will eat itself.

21:48 / 20.04.07

Fucked if I can comment on the reality of the situation, but it's reading like Jason has been burnt badly and then taken from a very, very vulnerable place. The longer he spends with SN the more alienated from everybody and dependent on him he'll become. It's clear to me that anyone who would encourage him to ostracise his friends from hereabouts really doesn't have his best intentions at heart (if you needed any further confirmation after reading the shit SN spouts).

Well it's not really my place, since I don't know him from Adam but this whole thing is very saddening. What a horrible situation.

Pyewacket The Elder

23:17 / 20.04.07

Well you know 'They' do say: History repeats itself.

At least we're playing time-tested scripts. Jes' like eastenders. division is always a crowd pleaser. it keeps the ball rolling don't it?

The Ghost of Tom Winter

05:40 / 21.04.07

What I'm worried about is younger types interested in the Occult. I know that when I first got into it I took a lot of stuff as accepted lore just because I didn't know jack shit. Although I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have stood for the amount of intolerance the duo has vomited up. Still, I hope to god newly interested occultlings have enough sense to tell the difference between astral entities and astral racism.

I think if any further action were to be taken it’d fit right into their argument of eeeval voodoo types destroying their communitiez.

06:51 / 21.04.07

Well, I mean, the kids are going to have some other form of spiritual/religious background. Always are. I may worry about babies coming in fresh, but in terms of politics, spirituality, and entertainment, we all have a background from about day six forward, and I find it better to presume people can channel that background to work for them as intelligent human beings. Some people disprove this, but nobody's quite hit the mark of being totally new to the scene, even if they are new to the angle of the scene.

The Ghost of Tom Winter

07:33 / 21.04.07

Point taken. I've just read a lot of people talking about magic "shields" and protections and what not. Always gave me the sense that they think there are nasty astral things flying around waiting for your guard to be down to eat you. S's ramblings struck some same ideas with that.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

12:03 / 21.04.07

I'm coming round to the "just leave it, it's not worf it" school of thought myself.

12:11 / 21.04.07

Come away MC, 'e in't worf it, come away...

I suggest we lock this thread and unlock it if we need to in the future.

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